Kent Pitman

Kent Pitman
Location
New England, USA
Title
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
Bio
I've been using the net in various roles—technical, social, and political—for the last 30 years. I'm disappointed that most forums don't pay for good writing and I'm ever in search of forums that do. (I've not seen any Tippem money, that's for sure.) And I worry some that our posting here for free could one day put paid writers in Closed Salon out of work. See my personal home page for more about me.

MY RECENT POSTS

APRIL 10, 2009 8:09PM

One Husband and One Wife

Rate: 19 Flag

Oh, don't get all upset. First of all, this isn't a rant against gay marriage. Also, nothing I'm about to say is a serious move to make anything a law. I'm just trying to make what seem to me a few common sense observations.

A long time ago, marriages had roles. Husbands worked at a job and brought home money. Wives stayed at home and made the house. That had a certain usefulness to it because it meant everyone had certain expectations and they were compatible expectations.

In the modern world, we've kind of thrown all that out of the window. And, actually, gay marriage is not so much the problem. They almost have it easier. If you're marrying someone of the same sex, it's natural to ask “What's my role? What's your role?” It's actually when you're marrying someone of the opposite sex that you're less prone to ask because it's easier to assume it goes without saying. But I don't know that it any more does.

We tend to think of the terms “husband” and “wife” as terms with gender. But must we? I kind of like them as unisex terms (if anyone still uses that term any more; maybe they say “gender blind” or “gender neutral” instead).

It seems to me that marriages don't work well if both people expect to go to work and bring home money, with no one wanting to do the laundry. Nor do they work well if both people want to do laundry but no one wants to work. (Probably double income works better than no income, of course, and perhaps at least in that case one can afford a maid.)

We could, I say only half seriously, require that all marriage licenses should require parties getting married to agree to who's going to be the husband and who the wife, just as a test that the couple has discussed this in advance and has come to an agreement. Probably that's excessive. It's enough just to note the issue. And anyway, it's actually just one of many things that people who are contemplating marrying need to talk about in advance, so it wouldn't be enough to really protect people from themselves.

But if we just said that the “husband” was someone who brings home the money, but we didn't say if that was the guy, and if we said that the “wife” was the one who takes care of the house, but we didn't say if that was the woman, then we'd have some nice role words that would mostly be compatible with the old-style usage, and yet would work well in modern society, too.

Best of all, it would be good because it would mean that even heterosexual marriages could sometimes have two husbands, while gay marriages might have a husband and a wife in many cases. Then little kids would learn these terms as a matter of role, and the great thing would be that there would need be no awkwardness for Republicans when they explained to kids why these terms were used, since the term would no longer emphasize the private aspects of the parent's genitals, which is really an irrelevance most of the time in polite company anyway; it would emphasize instead their public role in a useful way that the kids could relate to.


If you got value from this post, please "rate" it.

For more of my writing on marriage,
see my article A Real Act in Defense of Marriage.

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This is perfect! When I was single I used to say all the time that what I needed was a wife to do the laundry and the marketing and the cooking and take care of the kids. I loved my job and didn't mind at all being the one to bring home the bread, but doing everything is tough.

Deciding on how to divvy up the necessary tasks for keeping a marriage and family functioning is so important and naming the roles allows for disambiguation. Bravo for saying so!
I completely agree, although a) I think one-income families are pretty much extinct, and b) I'm laughing over the couple who both want to work and bring home money while no one wants to do the laundry. I suspect there are very few people in the world who actually *want* to do the laundry. We sure don't have any in our house.
In response to questions about the secret of his success, a friend of mine always responds "One job; one wife."
Every family could use at least one "wife," but maybe taking turns? It is all very confusing.
I went and read some of your other thoughts on the matter before commenting, because I hate it when I speak "out of turn" and later wish I had done a little homework. Here's what I'm really appreciating about your post: Last week I did some writing on this subject, from my perspective; tonight, I'm reading your post(s), and it's adding to my inner dialogue. Defining the terms makes the entire discourse make more sense. Thanks for adding a refreshing perspective to the general discussion, and some ideas which could bring clarity to it. Rated 'cuz I like to think!
C, clearly the policy needs to be internal to the relationship, decided among spouses, not by us in the peanut gallery. What matters is that no one assumes... Deborah Tannen writes some excellent books (You Just Don't Understand and That's Not What I Meant, among others) talking about the differences between how the genders talk. Again I think it's less about the gender and more about hwo people are socialized; I have some of one modality and some of the other in me as I read her stories. But it doesn't matter. The point is the nature of the confusion that can happen when people don't agree on their assumptions, and that comes through clearly in her writing. (Actually, to be fair, I've listened to abridged audiobooks, not really read those. I like them because she reads her own text, and she does a good job of it.)
Owl, that's cool. I write a lot of my posts just to get people thinking. I know a lot of shock jocks on the radio try to say provocative things just to make people mad, but seems like it's equally possible just to say something a little softer to maybe make people reconsider their assumptions with a more civil kind of discussion to follow. I'm glad it's working for you. Thanks for stopping in and commenting!

Coyote, yes, I've heard that kind of phrasing from many people. It's probably part of how I came to this thought.

High, I suspect more such people exist who are like that than you think. It's not always fashionable to trumpet it, since the public often regards it as something inappropriate or a sign of someone being held back. It was an important step for women in society to be able to take on what were traditionally men's roles, but it's yet another step forward for either men or women to say “yes, I could do those other things, but this is what I want to do.” It's not really choice if you're not accepted for either way you might make the choice.

Tom, did your friend say which one of them was the wife? ;)
Kent - I agree that roles should be discussed and decided upon ahead of time, but I disagree for the most part with this post.

One, the terms husband and wife are NOT gender-neutral and never will be. Additionally, the roles are way more fluid and arbitrary than what you describe - I almost wondered if this was tongue-in-cheek, but realize it is not and understand that it would be helpful to assign roles.

However, I think it should be up to the couple themselves to assign the roles and society has NO BUSINESS putting labels on it. Doing so only invites sexism and diminishment of the non-wage-earning role.

Also, I think it's specious and unrealistic to determine roles beforehand (although there should be discussion of expectations). Marriage is more of an on-going negotiation about roles. Usually both spouses work before the marriage (or before children) and then sometimes both work afterwards. In my case, we ended up in fairly traditional roles in that my "husband" goes out to work and I work PT from home and focus on the kids. But, other than my desire for better child-care choices and longer maternity/paternity leave, it really isn't any of society's business what roles we choose.

My husband would like some role reversal as he nears retirement age - he scales back or works from home and I pick up the breadwinner mantle. We're still in negotiations.

I might agree that giving these roles truly gender-neutral names might be helpful - but otherwise, the "wife's" role has too much baggage in "traditional" society to be a useful label. Any man taking the "wife's" role is automatically marginalized, not to mention all the women who are already diminished by society in this "role."
LPS, I understand it's possible to disagree with me, but I'm curious how assigning a gender-neutral meaning to these terms could invite sexisim. That part didn't make sense to me not for some political reason but because I just couldn't quite image up the scenario in my head. You might be right that it's impractical to change the way everyone uses the term overnight, but I think a few conscientious objectors in the terminology use might go a long way toward loosening up society's narrow view of these things. It would suffice for my purposes if a secondary usage arose that was gender-neutral. It's not like terminology is something that gets legislated. Terms change through people's decisions to use them differently, and that happens one at a time, inconsistently, not all at once.
Kent, I sounded too flippant about that, although I'm living proof that a marriage can be happy for many, many years despite the absence of anyone who finds the least bit of enjoyment in laundry, cleaning out the fridge, disinfecting the toilet or dusting the top of the piano. That's not to say that those tasks aren't valuable, nor to pass judgment on those who perform them or enjoy them. I know those people and love them; I've determined that they aren't essential in my own household.

And I mean in no way to defend the assignment of roles by gender. As I think about this, though, I'm also a little uncomfortable with the idea of assigning roles by task, i.e. what I do is what I am in relation to my partner. It would be impossible to describe my own marriage in traditional husband/wife terms, regardless of which gender got which label. We both work, out in the world and in the home. We both enjoy certain tasks, and we both do others because they need done. Everything that needs doing gets done, but I would challenge anyone to identify anything very husbandly/wifely about the division of labor and of pleasure. Our relationship is made of something else, and the balance simply doesn't involve "You do this and I'll do that."
Also, LPS, I didn't mean to suggest (though I can see how you'd read it that way) even in my half-serious remark about marriage licenses that it would be decided for all time. I just meant as a way of getting things off on the right foot by making sure the two were in sync at least to get started... Of course I agree it's an ongoing negotiation. My wife and I have traded off on this depending on job circumstances. I used to do the wifely stuff, cleaning house, doing dishes, making lunch and bringing it to her office, etc. during a time when I had no job and she did. And she's done stints the same in reverse. We didn't indulge my alternate terminology when I was doing that, but it wouldn't have bothered me. I'd have found it fun. Challenging people's assumptions and getting them to think now and then seems like a good thing to me.
High, yep, that sounds like a solid marriage. I have one of those, too, thankfully. I appreciate the additional detailing to clarify your other thoughts. Some other day I'll write about this business of having labels at all, because that's a slightly different issue. I don't disagree with you, I'm just trying to divvy up my writing into little bursts on discrete topics.
It has gotten quite confusing. We both work 40+ hours a week. But then my husband expected me to still do: all the housework, dinners, childcare, phonecalls, cards, entertaining, ad infinitum - all of our arguments were over this. He could not understand that if I'm working the same amount of time as he is, why am I supposed to continue to work full time at home?!
So now we have a housecleaner who comes twice a month. We buy pre-made dinners from Costco - those 2 things alone make a world of difference. And he does his own laundrey. But still....rated.
Deborah, yes, old habits and ways of thinking die hard. Glad you managed to work out a good compromise.
I think there is something sad about the trumpeting of women soldiers and policewomen as an ideal for every woman. You don't hear the trumpeting of men being kindergarten teachers or nurses. Under it all everyone still believes that what men do is more important. Some women may enjoy being soldiers, that is fine and they should be allowed to do so. There is nothing wrong with it. But I don't think that traditional roles should just vanish completely. A world in which all men and women are exactly alike is a boring one.
Kathy, it's drifting slightly afield from the topic here, which is just about marriage roles, not all job roles, but let me speak neutrally to both and just say that I think there are things that can only be done by someone of one or the other sex for some definitional reason. It's hard for men to actually bear children, for example. But beyond those very few things, I prefer to ignore the difference between men and women. That doesn't mean I aspire to make all women be policemen or firemen, since I don't have that same goal for men. Rather, I hope for a society in which people who do have that goal are supported in it to the extent they can do it, independent of traditional gender-lines assignment of that as an allowable goal. This essay on terminology is intended to be supportive of flexibility in that regard, not to force any particular theory onto either woman or man. As people have already here implied, and I'm sure more to come will say again, roles are dynamic matters to be worked out between partners in a marriage.
I do like this post Kent. But I can't remember one you have wrote that I did not!!

Gender roles are a good subject. I have met men who cook and men who do not. Women the same. Yet it seemed okay for the men who did not cook. But the women were expected to somehow learn as though it was a defect of character.

I could use a man or woman now to clean for me. I don't care the sex just don't have to time right now. I feel like I have a full time job just planting and tilling. It is one reason I am never on this site.

You bring up so many things in so few words. What do the traditional roles play in today's society? Are the men still men and the women still house mates??? I often wonder how roles are perceived by folks. I can't tell you how many men say to me "wife has not cleaned today." as though to apologize for a messy house. I always throw in a comment like 'oh' . I never get the men who don't even pick up after themselves.
Ye Gods, I did not mean to ramble on. sorry
I think that you make a hell of a lot of sense. The problem really is about unexamined assumptions. My significant other comes from a family that holds strong stereotypical assumptions about gender roles. Women do the laundry. Period. Even when those women hold down a full-time job. Lucky for him I am easily amused these days. I think I have been very good natured while discussing the wrong-headedness of these beliefs.

I do think that the two-income family is here to stay because so few people can earn enough with one income to support a family. Dividing up the home chores is important, but in my experience an awful lot just doesn't get done because there is not enough time or energy after work (or school). What we need are "wives for hire," men or women who live on your street or block and can take on some of the "wife" chores. Pick up the dry cleaning, sign for packages, be at your house when the plumber comes. Because I work at home I always wanted to have a side business being a neighborhood "wife," but could never convince people to pay for it as they seemed to think I should do it for free since "you are at home all day anyway." As if working at home isn't like have a real job.

I think some of the details clearly need to be worked out, but in an ideal world, there would be more of this sort of thing. I know I could sure as hell use a wife about now.
It was when my son's father & I ceased to be a couple that all of this became very apparent. I am blessed to live in a duplex with my mother: she now fulfills the role of wife. It is perhaps a little sad to say, but the house runs much more smoothly now. And I am more grateful to her than she could possibly begin to imagine...

The only thing we have yet to work through is whether it is reasonable for me to hope that she have a martini ready for me when I get home from a hard day at the office. ;-)

(rated)
Meant to add, I would recommend Deborah Tannen's books to everyone. Even if only in the abridged audio version ;) It is incredibly enlightening to realize that a lot of conflict between people is based on differences in communication "styles" (if I can use that word loosely). And very useful because she shows ways to get around the miscommunications.
Mission, thanks for visiting and commenting. Didn't seem rambly to me.

Susan, you too—glad to see you. Interesting about the neighborhood service thing. I've thought meals could be handled better in that kind of bulk, too. The “you're home all day” thing is indeed sad. Some societal retraining needed there. A lot of such problems have been addressed by network television. I suppose a show is called for in which someone plays out that role, although theoretically people were supposed to have learned it from the numerous movies about dads staying home to take care of kids. I guess people are bad about re-applying such knowledge against other conclusions that they aren't directly led to.

Oh, and Susan, I'm glad someone besides just me is a Tannen fan. :)

Wordsmith, you're right that there are a lot of kinds of creative pairings people make up in practice just to get by. It's also why some people have roommates in college, or after. Martini, though... hmmm... hopefully not out of requirement anyway.
I applaud the sentiment, but for it to work, everyone with a memory of the time when husband=man, wife=woman would have to die off before the role words could be effectively de-genderized. I see no problem with everyone just referring to themselves as partner, and every partnership deciding within itself to determine who will play what role. In my relationship it is a decidedly non-traditional set up. My h does all the cooking and cleaning. I spend a lot more time working.
Sandra, I'm willing to tolerate a transition period of a few decades where people just use the terms inconsistently. :)