Kent Pitman

Kent Pitman
Location
New England, USA
Title
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
Bio
I've been using the net in various roles—technical, social, and political—for the last 30 years. I'm disappointed that most forums don't pay for good writing and I'm ever in search of forums that do. (I've not seen any Tippem money, that's for sure.) And I worry some that our posting here for free could one day put paid writers in Closed Salon out of work. See my personal home page for more about me.

MY RECENT POSTS

JANUARY 4, 2010 7:15PM

My Brother’s Reality Intrudes

Rate: 28 Flag

A couple of months ago, I wrote My Brother Is Pregnant. No, it wasn’t a sci-fi tale about a laboratory experiment gone awry. Rather, it was a true story about an unintended pregnancy.

In fact, I have no brother. But I chose to refer to the principal character as “my brother” in to relate this all to the age-old question “Am I my brother’s keeper?

This situation happens to many of our brothers in this society. The question is what we, as individuals and as a society, can and should do about it.

If you never read that first installment, it might help to do so now before proceeding. But I’ll try to set the stage here anyway.

In our last episode, my brother and his wife were pregnant with their second unintended pregnancy. A couple of years earlier, in response to the first one, they had decided to marry in order to prove their commitment to their child and to show everyone how adult they were. Unfortunately, they’ve had trouble making ends meet and have had to lean heavily on family to make ends meet. Money spent on cigarettes and eating out had taken precedence over paying the electric bill, Now that there is a second pregnancy, the recommendation of many family members was to have an abortion.

There was no abortion. That shouldn’t surprise you. “I’m Catholic,” she explained when it was suggested. “And anyway, it’s too late for that kind of thing.”

This is the problem with drawing the line of Choice at the end of the first trimester. It solves a political question by filibuster. People who are in denial about their own situation don’t even talk about the matter with others until it’s too late. Especially those who are Catholic.

No, she didn’t say she it was out of the question because she’s Catholic, she said it was out of the question because she’s Catholic and it’s too late.

Yes, that is the reality of the Catholic life, as it played out here. Not to know one’s heart what is right, but rather to know in one’s heart that this was bad and ought not be spoken of until it’s too late. And after then, the decision was out of one’s hand.

Very adult. Very responsible. Very moral. God will provide. All is good.

“And anyway,” she said by way of punctuation, “This is none of your business. It’s our personal choice.”

A personal choice. Perhaps. But liberty comes at the price of responsibility, and one could already see the train wreck coming. To borrow from Rod Serling, “That’s the signpost up ahead—your next stop, The Twilight Zone.”

But by what we must assume is mere coincidence, she wasn’t really liking this marriage very much. She never had been. She was always sure her husband had been cheating on her. To those looking on, there was no apparent evidence for this, and it appeared that she was insecure for no reason.

To be frank, he wasn’t that happy with the marriage either. She spent money he felt they didn’t have, and he was tired of her blathering on about her insecurities. So he tolerated the talk of divorce and chatted idly with friends about life after “he moved out.”

But this was all none of our business. Personal choice.

Did I mention their beautiful son? Quite a treasure. Surprisingly happy, all things considered. Intelligent. Polite. Engaged. Blissfully unaware of the storm clouds brewing around him. Well, okay, I didn’t mention him, but keep him in mind. Some day his presence may turn out to matter. As will the eventual arrival of a sibling-to-be.

So that sums it up. A peek behind the scenes in a situation where we ought never have gone. A private matter in which neither society nor even family has any business. Two people making private choices. Mostly private. There is a kid involved, and one to come. But that’s still private, right?

You see, the church seems oh so worried about how gays marrying might matter to the world’s morality. And yet those are private choices. Where is the same public energy spent on the proper rearing of children? Why do we even care about the state licensing marriage—effectively a private choice, when the state cares not a wit about licensing the rearing of children, something that most assuredly is not so simply summarized as a mere private choice?

But I digress. Because you imagine this to be the essence of my story tonight and in fact it is mere prelude. I did promise a train wreck, after all.

The telephone rings. It is late at night. It is the wife in this private little family. She is calling anyone, everyone. Family and friends. You know—those who have inquired and been told it is not their business.

She apologizes for the late hour. She does not, as it happens, apologize for any of the above, for the sleep any of that might lose them. But the thought that a ringing phone might disturb them matters. Well, fine. Some might say it’s mere protocol and a point of no consequence.

The husband has been in an accident.

If this were an actual soap opera, and not real life, there would be a flashback at this point to help you understand the context. The scene might get wiggly and fade to black and white.

We would find as we looked backward that the husband had been arrested and convicted for driving under the influence. He had accepted some counseling and had his driver’s license revoked for several months.

The scene would skip to the first pregnancy. Yes, the wife knew of his history, and accepted this. None of this is a surprise.

Confident of our facts, now, the soap opera fades forward into color again, though those receiving these phone calls are still a bit pale.

The husband had gotten drunk and crashed the car.

He wasn’t terribly hurt, and no one else was involved. Thank God for small favors, as some might be inclined to say. Where God is in the rest of this mess, I cannot say. Why does He get all the credit for the good and no blame for the bad?

Now, I perhaps didn’t mention that she had recently obtained a second car. That’s a very curious element of all of this. Upon learning of that factoid, my first utterance was “They can’t afford that.” But as I think on it, the complexity goes further than that.

Just as owning one’s first car is what many experience as the birth of independence in the world, the purchase of a second car might be seen as just one more nail in the coffin of this marriage. In retrospect, it has allowed the two to see themselves as less dependent on one another and may have fueled the thought that it was acceptable for him to set out drinking without discussing it with her. Had there been only one shared resource, he might have felt the need to coordinate this with her, and a problem might have been avoided.

But what’s done is done.

And so we have it, two people who are each flawed in some fairly serious ways, and yet have managed to more or less fumble through thus far by compensating for each other’s weaknesses.

But these are also two people who are each selfishly obsessed with their own independence. They wish to be independent of family. They each appear to wish to be independent of each other. There’s just one thing: A child is involved, and another will be soon.

At the urging of family, my brother went to an AA meeting today. Will he keep going? I’m betting he’ll find an excuse not to, a reason to believe it’s ok to miss just one meeting, then maybe two. Or perhaps he just won’t identify with “that crowd.” But we’ll see. It’s a free country. He can, after all, do as he pleases.

Next, I suppose, comes a court hearing on the matter.

Will he be jailed to help him understand the reality of what he has done? If he is, he will likely lose his job. It seems doubtful his wife can take care of a child and work at the same time, so she might lose hers as a result, too, perhaps going on welfare. Or perhaps some family member will have their life co-opted to offer perpetual daycare to promote the illusion that she is working and taking care of herself, when really anything she does is merely an indulgence paid for by the sacrifice of another.

Or perhaps he’ll be let off easy. Perhaps the court will be swayed that putting him in jail would have a cascade effect on too many people. And it might. But then will he learn the lesson that he needs to learn? Will the situation recur?

And what of the innocent pawns in all of this—the children?

You’ll have to tune in for the next episode, I suppose, to find out what happens, assuming I have the energy to write it. It’s painful enough to watch it happening.


This reminds me a bit of the nation’s debt situation. Many people took on risk that exceeded their grasp, either being told by others that what they were doing was “obviously right” or sometimes knowing there were potential problems but also knowing they would not be the ones forced to pay if a catastrophe happened. As a public, we did nothing until the fall, all in the name of personal liberty. Are those, in fact, our national values—that we simply stand by and watch train wrecks as they happen and say we will do nothing until after the horrible collision we can see coming a mile away?

We allow organized religion to tell us that morality means having babies is unconditionally Good, Responsible, and Moral, while aborting babies, even those we aren’t prepared for, is Bad, Irresponsible, and Immoral. We allow them to dictate which children must be born, but we do not require them to pay for those who run into financial trouble down the line as a consquence of these coerced choices.

I hear freedom and liberty and morality used a lot today these days as justifications for a lot of callously selfish behavior. I’m all for freedom and liberty, but I want some responsibility as well.

And I insist on new definitions of morality, ones that accept that abortion is sometimes the moral and responsible thing, and that bringing a child into this kind of chaos as sometimes the immoral and irreponsible thing. This could indeed have been a private matter, a victimless crime. But from the moment another life was brought into the world, it ceased to be. The situation is a mess and no model of any morality I subscribe to.

Am I my brother’s keeper? That’s not the right question. Perhaps the better question is:

Am I my brother’s janitor?


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Oh, where to start...
Keeping it simple, this story is absolute proof that some people should not be parents (IMHO).

{tasking away some value, leaving a rate}
rated.

Good question. And, unfortunately I think that is what 'keeper' means. Janitor.
{sneaks back in to grab the extra "s" out of comment above.}
"Some day his presence may turn out to matter." Kent, his presence already matters. I feel for him, and I don't even know him. His presence is being shaped by his influences....Great post, many thought provoking ideas. xox
Spotted, I was having so much fun figuring out what the "s" was about, I think we'll just leave it. Thanks for visiting.

Nick, interesting connection. Believe it or not, I hadn't noticed that. I'd been thinking of it more in a more abstract supervisory role, like someone that feeds not someone that removes the result of feeding, but I see I was missing some nuance there. Well, that's why I post sometimes, so people will help me notice things.
Robin, I had a heap of heavy-handed messages and decided to shoot for understatement to convey some of them. Unlike the one Nick spotted, that was actually intentional. But I'm still glad you picked that one out for highlighting. :)
great post, raises questions that have no simple answers, why are some choices deemed personal and some deemed contingent on government approval and/or societal pressure? who speaks for the rights of a child (not talking fetus here)? government agencies don't have a perfect track record in that area, how do choice/compulsion figure when it comes to cleaning up our brothers' messes?
I know...the plight of children in the world is near and dear to me, and I plan to blog more about it in the coming year...it always saddens me to hear of just one of these situations...xox

p.s. My dream volunteer gig: UNICEF.
Wow. Kent, there is much to think about here. But I like the comparison very much. I am a strong believer in personal choice, but I'm always confused by why some things are okay in our society as a personal choice, but not others, in a very arbitrary fashion.
Roy, yes, sad you should have to make that parenthetical clarification, since indeed there are lots of people speaking for fetuses and then it falls off suddenly. (I originally had a paragraph in there saying this explicitly, but I figured people would pick it up without me saying it, and I'm glad you did.)

Robin, good to mention UNICEF. (I figured I'd hyperlink it for you so they'd get some advertising.)

Odette, you're right, it's complicated. I don't have any agenda here. On other days, I'll probably blog and say there should not be community oversight. But the truth is I'm a believer in Aristotle's virtue ethics, that virtue is the mean between unreasonable extremes. You can't just dogmatically say that one or the other approach is right and really get anywhere just. But then again, you can't just randomly decide you'll care about these things in one case and not in another, either. What bugs me is not that there is a policy that doesn't always work. What bugs me is that there is no real ordered policy at all. Democracy makes kind of weird results on these things where whoever was in the room on a certain day with an interest in a certain issue might be able to get this or that random thing through. And yes, over time, things that are egregious get fixed sometimes. But really it depends a lot on where the light is being shined. And I have the sense that not enough light is being shined on this kind of thing.
Thanks Kent! And based on today's war on OS, I will say that I have nothing to gain from UNICEF personally, except in the way the whole world gains through their work. xox
I completely agree. The more one points out the inconsistency of these "decisions of society", the better off we all will be. Well, I hope so, although I'm feeling cynical this week, I'm sad to say.
Another great one, Kent. Not sure I have much to add. You know where I stand on the issue in general. But, at least we're able to discuss this rationally like adults, which is more than I can say for the extremists on both sides of this issue
Placebo, you have a unique and valuable perspective.
Excellent post - my computer is not letting me get a word in edgewise without crashing - this is my third attempt to comment . . . to sum my much longer efforts - this sounds like it will be like one of those "if it's not one thing it's another" movies like "After Hours" or "Planes, Trains and Automobiles."

I feel a bit voyeuristic watching these people through your narrative - but these stories are all around us.

I'll stop before I crash again .. . .
Travellini, thanks for your persistence in trying to participate. Yes, you're right, it does feel like if it's not one thing it's another. I would underscore that this is why the issue of family planning is part of the theme in the name of an organization like Planned Parenthood. I've mentioned in other contexts that there are a number of women friends I've known well enough that I could inquire if they've ever had an abortion and expect an honest reply. To my surprise, most of those I've asked have said yes. Moreover, the vast majority of these later went on to have kids with someone else, at a better time, properly planned, and have had really good quality lives. In my world view, I figure these people only had in them the one or two kids they ended up having. If they'd had the unplanned kids, they'd never have later had the planned ones. And it would just as much be a lost soul that was as the other. It is rarely conceived (pardon unintended pun) that way by people, but every reality chooses winners and losers, not just the realities the pro-Life community wants. And I think there's nothing bad about making sure the kids one does have are going to be cared for and loved and treated to the best life one can bring them. But when that planning is not done, as you say, it's going to be one thing or another. One can never totally plan the way someone will be raised—it's too chaotic. But if one does no planning, you pretty much know it has high risk of ending badly.
I've never had a child, but I consider it SUCH a sacred trust - I find it amazing that some people have children with all the nonchalance that they reach for chips and dips. It does seem strange that something so profound, long-lasting, and life-changing comes so easily to so many who don't think it through, and yet is so elusive for others who take it so seriously and would do anything for the experience. Life sort of punks us sometimes, doesn't it?
This post addresses about eleventy-hundred issues, and I need something more bite-size.

As far as I can tell from this post and others, you believe that couples should be able (in a moral sense) to have sex outside of marriage, even though that may result in pregnancy, and even though the couple practices birth control. And if a pregnancy occurs, abortion (at some stage) is a morally permissible option.

Did I get that right?
Travellini, everyone should probably have to do one of those dorky little doll things in high school where they carry around a doll baby for days or weeks and if they don't tend to it it dies and they get an F. It's kind of a harsh and probably uncool thing to be doing, but it would get across the point. I believe problem wasn't that these people were insincere about being parents, it's that they were unable to conceive the magnitude of the commitment and unwilling to trust those who were giving them hints because they're at that age where taking a suggestion from anyone makes them feel small and unpowerful. While we're throwing out harsh ideas, if pregnancy were simply forbidden at that age and not allowed until the mid-twenties, probably most of this really would work itself out.
Mishima, yes, as it happens, I believe that sex outside of marriage is a human inevitability and that making it illegal or immoral is pointless. But this post is about a pregnancy within marriage. No abortion occurred because Catholic teachings forbid it, or so it is explained off. I'm not 100% sure that's the reason it didn't happen. It may have also been simple indecision that persisted too long. Nonetheless, the moral questions raised here are primarily about whether the many people who are likely to be impacted by this should have any say or whether it is simply proper to thrust the mess that is increasingly being made upon them.
It is so painful to be a spectator to someone's inevitable train wreck. And absolutely maddening, enraging, when children are involved.
mypsyche, thanks for stopping by. Indeed the plight of the children is the worst of it. Though it's also pretty grim for those others who are thrust onto the tracks in the path of the doomed train.
Great essay, Kent. How the hell *did* religion assert itself as the definer of morality? On what authority? And to whose benefit? How can people be such sheep, to not bother to question the obvious hypocrisy so often apparent in fundamentalist religious movements.
Well, Sandra, to be fair, if you really believe there is a God, particularly one who is chatty with humanity, then I guess you're going to do what he says. But I guess you're right that a lot of people are more laid back about it (suggesting, perhaps, that the degree to which they believe is not 100%, but who am I to say?) Fundamentalism assumes issues like this are not ones with optional answers but rather required ones.

Also, people come to religion for a lot of reasons, but I imagine many who aren't strong believers still think it's out of place for them to question, just on grounds of politeness. I think that politeness needs to be held up sometime to the scrutiny of light so that the people who aren't strongly wedded to insisting on these policies can make good choices.

I'm all for private religious or philosophical thought, but I draw the line at behaviors that affect others, as this certainly does.
K, very, very well done sir.

Without question the "Catholic" (means universal- gives them a free false reality- fascinating) Church is based on lies, deceit, fraud all doled out by FORGING Church Fathers. This is what I ask Catholics, "Jesus (jew with greek name?) - I mean Joshua of Nazereth, was a Jew who spoke Aramaic and possibly Hebrew, but not Greek, so why the Greek name. Oh, and, his #1 Fan Cephas, I mean Peter, whose name comes from the Greek word for stone, petros, well Joshua, the Aramaic/maybe Hebrew speaker, well Joshua says to Cephas, "I will call you Petros as you will by my ROCK to build this Church (prison) on." This is, VERY VERY OBVIOUSLY, a Greek PUN. The pun, in case you can't tell due to brainwashing by forging fraudulent priests, is spoken, VERY CLEARLY and to this day, in Greek, a language Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua also VERY VERY CLEARLY could NOT speak. So, the conversation is absolutely impossible.

Unless, of course, you consider the truth, that the "Gospels" had no relation to Christios directly whatsoever and were instead written by FORGING FRAUDING CHURCH FATHERS who lived in the EASTERN Roman Empire- you know, the east half where the main language of the literate (dont forget, very few could write and it would HAVE to have been in Greek, a language Joshua clearly could not and did not speak) was- Greek.

If you can't see the truth in this I suggest you take your ass over to Istanbul, go see the actual descendants of the real Gnostic Christians (the real source of Sermon on the Mount, etc.), the Ecumenicals, lead today by the VERY Christ-Like Father of New Rome, the Great Bartholomew, and ask them, who have the actual records to this day, where the Gospels, Greek Documents all, were recorded and they will very clearly tell you the truth.

Or, keep believing that God smote a magi from the sky in downtown Rome for precious Cephas so he wouldn't look bad in front of a crowd gathered to witness "Miracles." Um, yeah, sure- and that is exactly what the later early Christians thought, "Um, yeah, sure- what a bunch of rot." Revelation is clearly NOT in the first codices- that, friends, says it all.

How nice to live a lie, then ride on Kent's family's back. Fascinating amount of gall.

AUWE
Oahusurfer, I'm glad you enjoyed the piece.

As to the historical information you offer, I can't know, but what you suggest doesn't sound utterly implausible. I imagine there are a lot of theories on this, but what can't be denied is that it's often just human nature to take what opportunity one has to make the historical record in one's own image, as it were. And even if transcription errors along the way were not done deliberately, there's also the opportunity for history to be like a game of Telephone. There's a lot of hearsay in the Bible. There are also some pretty entertaining bits of fiction that go to immense lengths to detail other such suggestions about how to make sense of these alleged historical accounts. (I'm thinking of works like The Da Vinci Code and Snowcrash.)

But while you might well be right, I'll just underscore that it's a sad state of affairs no matter how we got here...
Hmmm. Funny juxtaposition of sentences in my last remarks: If my words sounded like I was saying the DaVinci Code and Snowcrash were books of the Bible, of course I didn't mean that. Though it's an amusing thought.
Barking, I don't have a lot to add to that but thanks for stopping in and sharing your experiences and perspectives.
Kent,
Thanks for another thoughtful and well reasoned post. I’m sorry that what you feared came to pass in this situation, and sorrier still that it was not unexpected.

If the heart of what “a relationship with God” promises is a new life - and a “moral” life at that - I suppose what’s at issue is how we choose to define morality.

It is a cavalier definition of “faith” that defends what others would call irresponsible behavior while professing that people who clean up our messes are simply “instruments of God providing for and rewarding our faith.”

To allow others to assume responsibility for our actions under the guise of “faith” is like the preacher who claimed God provided him with the exact shoes he’d “believed for” - after praying in front of a generous congregation for “size 9D wing tips, in oxblood - not brown or black.”

That sort of deception - self or otherwise - is far from any genuine definition of morality.

Rated and appreciated.
Dennis, thanks for visiting and for adding your usual thoughtful perspective. Some nice examples there.
Janitor. How true. I've never been married and have no children. One of my main reasons was I never thought I'd be able to handle the responsibility. Now it is starting to look like it actually was a responsible decision after all, though I never perceived it that way. A real life epiphany. Thanks for pointing that out, Kent. feel better already.
I have a brother that is the guy in the story above, only his is a real life drama without the religion. Married three times with kids scattered in his wake that he leaves for others to tend to. None are well adjusted.
Can't even talk to him about any of it without instant denial and justifications on his part or an instant argument. He's my brother. I love him, but I don't like him much. He's one of life's living nightmares.
"I hear freedom and liberty and morality used a lot today these days as justifications for a lot of callously selfish behavior. I’m all for freedom and liberty, but I want some responsibility as well."

Again, a brave post with a strong viewpoint. I fear this country has slid too far, and the country is made of individuals, often using religion as a defense for so many wrong and immoral things. And as bad as it is, where do we go from here?
My experience with those children who were accidents along the way, not-wanted accidents, is what they write in my classrooms. I'm not saying that any of those children should have been aborted, but I wonder, sometimes, given the pain that some of them are in, whether they would have liked to have been given the choice?
Most people are not terribly self aware, selfish assholes and this couple is no exception. Pity the spawn. Condemn the cult. monkey fingered.
Let's posit another moral dilemma for you:

The taking of another human's life is wrong.

EXCEPT when in defense of our own. OR during war.

Funny how the church AND the government can do that, isn't it? You sometimes CAN have your cake and eat it, too.

Rated. Apparently, you are only your brother's keeper when he WANTS you to be.
Kent writes: "I believe that sex outside of marriage is a human inevitability and that making it illegal or immoral is pointless. But this post is about a pregnancy within marriage. No abortion occurred because Catholic teachings forbid it, or so it is explained off."

Actually, in the situation as you described it, they got married because the woman was pregnant: "In our last episode, my brother and his wife were pregnant with their second unintended pregnancy. A couple of years earlier, in response to the first one, they had decided to marry in order to prove their commitment to their child and to show everyone how adult they were. "

What I find so fascinating, is that in this whole train wreck of a situation, you end up having a beef with the Catholic church over abortion. So let's unpack that a little bit:

1) had the couple followed Catholic teaching about sex, they wouldn't have had sex outside of marriage. Thus, the first pregnancy wouldn't have happened. Since that was the reason for getting married, it's possible that they wouldn't have gotten married, and then this whole train wreck wouldn't have happened.

2) Had they followed church teaching (or common sense) about parental responsibility, they wouldn't have been buying smokes and other stuff instead of paying the bills.

3) You assume that but for the woman's religion she would have had an abortion. But there's no evidence of that. Many women, faced with the option of abortion, choose not to abort. In fact, births to unwed mothers (1.7 million) now are at record levels.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/04/08/out.of.wedlock.births/index.html

Since only 16 percent of people are Catholic (though many of them are Catholic in name only) most of those births are not happening because of what the Pope says. Since out of wedlock births exceed the number of abortions, it is likely that the woman would have decided not to get the abortions anyway.

4) Had the man followed the church's teaching, he wouldn't have gotten drunk and crashed the car.

And then you come along and decide that much of this train wreck is the fault of the Catholic church . . . . . As my stepdaughter used to say "yeah, like whatever."

Also, I find it odd that you don't see a moral component in having sex outside of marriage, since that does in fact lead to a epidemic of out of wedlock births (that you presumably care about) and an epidemic of abortions (that you presumably don't care about).

It also leads to something we haven't talked about -- an epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases, some of which can be fatal, and all of which together cost tens of billions of dollars a year to treat.

And this occurs even though we practically throw condoms at kids these days, and have condoms in all colors of the rainbow, flavored condoms, and all sorts of others. I don't think we have condoms with Disney characters on them yet, but that can't be far behind. You can buy condoms in every grocery store and pharmacy, and even in many public restrooms.

As you say, sex outside of marriage is a human inevitability. But having an epidemic of it isn't a human inevitability. Out of wedlock births in the 1940s constituted around 3 percent of births. Now they constitute 40 percent.

You find the Catholic church responsible for a certain small number of live births. But who is responsible for creating a culture in which teenagers and young adults are sexualized to the point that we have an epidemic of out of wedlock births and abortions and sexually transmitted diseases? Many "liberals" ridicule the Catholic church and other churches, and they ridicule traditional sexual morality. But then when we see the consequences of what happens when traditional sexual morality breaks down, they shrug their shoulders and walk away. Not their problem.
666,

The "Catholic" Church is based on marriage? Bwahahahaha. Hardly, the early Church, WITHOUT QUESTION, was based on Concubinage -- check the "Catholic" encyclopedia, which, ironically, often speaks to truth. So, "Catholics" have been having sex outside of marriage quite literally from Day 1. And, never mind mentioning, since they try not to, the absolute "Catholic" tradition of man/boy love (rape)- such a huge part of the institution itself that the $$ settlements are in the Billions- not counting those raped throughout history without benefit of courts and lawyers.

Using the 40s as an example of what you propose? PREPOSTEROUS !!! The first half of the decade most men were at war, screwing mostly only prostitutes. The second half they all got married after coming home so horny they knocked up their girlfriends immediately and had to get married due to Church hypocrisy. Red Herring!! The marriage and birth certificate dates are quite real and verifiable, and speak volumes of PURE TRUTH.

I personally have had many bouts of girl-craziness over the years, and, for the NASTY stuff, nothing can beat a Madonna-Whore Catholic Girl, it is actually scary how kinky most of them want it, and they get IT too! Not hard for a woman to give it away, after all.

Art imitates life; Frank Zappa wrote "Catholic Girls" ( you know how they GGOOOOOOO), listen to it.

AUWE
Wow Kent…lots to think about here.

With respect to the personal choice theme, I see a parallel with the cheap consumer mentality of the western world.

We don’t want to pay the ‘real’ cost of our consumption when we purchase an item. The cost of raping the environment for raw materials and the cost for disposal of the junk when we are through with it are nicely ignored and/or pushed to future generations.

So too we don’t want pay the ‘real’ cost of our “personal” choices. Yes it is our choice to get pregnant, to smoke, to drink, to remain uneducated and ignorant. The costs to our families, our friends, our employers, our children are nicely ignored and/or pushed to future generations.

Rated
OK, where to start? First of all, great post, very intelligently built. The problem is that, deep down, many of the problems you mention here wouldn´t exist if there were.... EDUCATION. Sexual education (have sex and have fun, but don´t get pregnant in the process, it´s not that difficult); responsible behaviour comes basically from having had access to open-minded education to do so. Education allows us to weigh pros and cons, it allows us to think and get conclusions.
Now, I ´m sorry but I disagree with you on just one thing you´ve said: In my opinion, education is not always a choice. Not in my country, and I guess not even in some first - world countries like yours?. Depending on where you live, what the environment is like, what interests are at stake (consumeristic, religious, ideological, etc), access to education will be an accident rather than a rule, and definitely not a choice; unfortunately it´s a rare privilege.
It is what helps us decide if we are overconsuming, or when to take a look around and check on our governors, priests, bishops, and greedy businesses which are destroying the future of generations to come and are risking the well-being of the planet in the meantime...
Thank you for allowing me to think a bit about so many things on a Monday night!
Kisses,
Marcela
Michael, I'm sad to here you've been party to any such situation.

Lea, thanks for the kind remarks about the post itself. I vaguely recall that when I was in high school in JROTC, I had some wallet-sized card that said something to the effect of: “Three steps of the problem-solving process: 1. Recognize that a problem exists. 2. Characterize the problem. 3. Solve the problem.” I guess I'd mark us somewhere between 1 and 2 on this timeline. An honest assessment of a situation is often messy but big political problems rarely get solved for which there is not a clear consensus of the problem.

Look at the difficulty with health care. Very little of it is over what to do with the characterizations. If the problem is too much expense, we know we should spend less. If the problem is too little private enterprise, we know we should make more of this private. If the problem is too little oversight or too much private enterpise, we know how to increase oversight or create government plans. To some extent I sense our problem isn't that we don't know ways to react to problems, it's that we don't agree on what the problem is. We're still characterizing the problem.

I think the same is true of things like abortion, welfare, marriage, child rearing, terrorism, war, privacy, liberty, and so on. I don't have some secret agenda to push here. I'm just trying to say common sense observations out loud and see how they feel not only to you but to me myself.
FLW, it's intriguing to wonder what they might say. Have you written anything on that? I would sort of imagine a collection of essays on that would be fascinating (and under some circumstances, perhaps even marketable).

BBE, you're nothing if not succinct. I'm not sure I take quite such a dim view of humanity as that, but neither do I fail to see your position as a earnestly and thoughtfully taken. Thanks for dropping by.

Bill S, thanks for adding your thoughts about related hypocrisies. Always good to see you (except, of course, at the photo caption contests where I know you're going to be competition that's way too hard to beat).

Mishima, I'm going to come back to your remarks, replies to which will take me a bit of work to compose. We may disagree on some things but mostly draw differing inferencs on a lot of things. Still, I don't want to rush it and not say it well. Meanwhile thanks very much for standing up with your always-thoughtful point of view.

Oahu, your approach is definitely interesting. I'll just let it stand on its own. I will soon also respond to Mishima but from a different angle.

Mark, an excellent point cross-referencing environmental situations. I think if Don Geddis were chiming in here, he'd use the term “negative externality.” That's a term I learned from him—I already had the concept but didn't know it had a name.

Marcela, I think it might be Mishima you were disagreeing with on education and choice? I actually agree with you that this is not always something people get a lot of choice about. I take some issue with Mishima's remarks and hope to get back to them soon.
Mishima, you seem to think I have it in for Catholicism. I mentioned it only because it was used as a scapegoat in the actual scenario under description. There are two issues: Individuals must take responsibility for their own actions, notwithstanding their religion. You and I probably even agree that many of these actions are wrong.

But also, the church provides cover allowing people who are not savvy in the ways of the world, who are just starting out, to think that rosy paths area ahead if they follow the chosen way. I think any church that recommends unconditionally that pregnant people go ahead to have kids does bear some responsibility for the negatives that befall those people.

Suppose there is a very dangerous chemical and it turns out that with precisely three cups of water it is always 100% harmless or even helpful to swallow, but with even slightly more or less water, it is dangerous or fatal. Suppose I give it to you with instructions about this, and say simply “it must be taken with three cups of water” and I don't go into detail about what will happen otherwise. Have I given you something safe? Am I without blame if something goes wrong?

I allege it is not safe if reasonable variation can be expected and is not planned for.

Abstinence-only education in as an example. Statistics show that it's not as effective as other forms of teaching about how to avoid pregnancy. Yet the desire to teach this way persists even knowing it is not as effective. You can say this is an acceptable risk, but nonetheless you must in so doing acknowledge there is risk and that the blame goes with those pushing the program. It is simply unfair to say “we did the best we could” and not explain the important qualifications.

And to say that the best course of action for someone is to stay with the pregnancy without informing them of both the risks and of other options that avoid those risks is not reasonable. If the church is willing to say out loud that it is voluntarily putting people at risk for the sake of a higher principle, I can have some respect for that (though I won't agree with it). But if it has to hide the fact of these other statistics and pretend they don't happen, and if it cannot acknowledge there were more effective ways of doing it that are simply inconsitent with its principles for other reasons, it is not engaging in truthfulness. And that does not leave it the moral high ground when it asks for disclosures about the risks of abortions, by the way.

(This is part 1 of 2 in a long reply.)
This is part 2 of 2 in my reply to Mishima:

In point 3, you said I assumed that but for the religion she would have had an abortion. No, I didn't assume that. I assumed that but for the religion, there might have been the option to have a serious discussion between my sister-in-law and me.

In point 4 you assume the man is also Catholic. He wasn't. If church dogma doesn't work when there are natural variations of this kind, that's bad, and the church owns some of it.

I don't see a moral problem in sex out of marriage, yes, you're right. I don't advise it at a young age, but then I don't advise marriage at a young age either. But, realistically, I don't expect my advising it to not happen at a young age will do any good. It will happen. What matters is that I responsibly plan for it by offering good advice about what then, not stick my head in the sand and say “I told them the right thing. If they do otherwise, that's it.”

Sex does not cause babies any more than driving causes motor vehicle homocides. Indeed, there is a process that includes it, but deciding to drive a car is not deciding to kill someone. Deciding to have sex is not deciding to have a baby. Defensive driving is important to teach. One doesn't just say that if everyone drives correctly it won't be needed. In my book, proper sex education accommodates telling people about condoms as the number one line of defense.

You are correct that as a matter of personal morality, I don't have any compunction about early term abortions at all. Aborting a set of cells is not murder in my book. It is, however, still a medical procedure. I'd rather see it done safely by trained professionals, so it must remain legal so that appropriate regulations can govern its safety. But the regulations must allow unfettered access by those who need it. Your morality cannot substitute for theirs. This is a personal decision involving conscience, and to say you have a right to decide someone else's conscience is to sacrifice your own protections of freedom of religion. There is no reason for another to tolerate your religious ideas if you do not tolerate theirs.

Many out-of-wedlock births are the natural result of an absence of good training in birth control and an absence of access to abortion. They are not brought on by sex, except in the trivial sense that food poisoning is caused by preparing food or that motor vehicle accidents are caused by driving. We don't send people to jail for driving, we tell them they didn't use equipment properly. And if we have too many bad consequences in sex, that's an issue of correct equipment use, too.

Some of those excess births you can also count to promises that it's always good to go ahead with pregnancy or even that it will be possible to put up for adoption. But if you or anyone recommends someone unmarried carrying a child to term without requesting they do mandatory training on what complexities are involved and making sure they are really emotionally and financially up to it, then you lose all moral high ground in wanting to see disclosures by abortion clinics on the risk of abortion. If you or anyone recommends that adoption will be an option without disclosing that some kinds of babies are more adoptable than others, then again you are not doing appropriate disclosure. And without appropriate disclosure, people who are not prepared may be having kids for reasons I'm more inclined to attribute to lack of disclosure by the responsible-looking organizations that allege to have their best interests at heart than I am inclined to attribute it to the fact that these people sometimes sin.

If you believe church dogma on the matter, everyone sins. So if you don't plan for it, I think that's unreasonable. And if you call saying “never have sex” a plan to avoid pregnancy or “just go ahead and carry it, it will work out” a plan for how to cope with unwanted pregnancy, then you're falling short of what's needed.

We have some common ground on the issue of early sexuality. Like you, I think there are ways in which our culture sends messages that are not age-appropriate to kids. But then, I don't know what to do about it. Censorship seems unlikely to be successful and is probably the wrong thing anyway. I end up coming back to teaching “responsible use.” Bring the matter into the public discourse, create manners, emphasize responsibilities.
I was pro-choice before I became a parent. Now I am virulently pro-choice. Parenting is not to be taken on casually (accidentally).

Kent, you seem to make a distinction many people find difficult. There is a difference between promoting policies that give people freedom and choice and being a moral relativist that sees no distinction between good choices and bad choices. Former Catholics for Free Choice president Frances Kissling often discusses the need for pro-choicers to accept that sometimes abortion is a bad moral choice.

It's like the OS discussion this week on whether spousal permission should be required for voluntary serialization. As a democracy that respects individual rights, mandating others' (even spouses') ability to veto choices of what someone else can do with their body is wrongheaded and immoral itself. We have to delink the conclusion that because a decision is personal, doesn't make it amoral and doesn't erase the reality that it can negative consequences on others. You demonstrate this quite clearly.

Even many hard core pro-choice people think it is reasonable to outlaw sex-selection abortions. I agree that it is morally reprehensible to abort a fetus because of its sex. But people have the freedom to make poor moral choices. They have the freedom to make poor moral choices that harm others. It's an unavoidable downside to being a human being living in a society.

The helpful discussion is how to facilitate (not mandate) individual choices that benefit individuals and society. (Think anti-smoking initiatives.) The first step when it comes to abortion is to acknowledge "abortion is sometimes the moral and responsible thing, and that bringing a child into this kind of chaos as sometimes the immoral and irresponsible thing."
Skeptic, I'm glad you see that distinction, since it was intended. I have a whole planned post on the very issue you raise about moral relativism, but it's in play here implicitly. I made a note of your comments and will remind you when I get back to that other issue. Thanks very much for stopping by.
Kent,

Just a footnote, Abstinence is one of the main causes of terrorism. It is damn hard to get laid in the middle east when you are a young male, so, following 666's advice, you want to get married and put an end to the misery ... Bush's war derailed so many marriages in so many horrendous ways, these guys are channeling all that testosterone right back at the source of their misery ... to ignore this is to be not just blind, not just simply partisan, but literally inhuman.

AUWE