Kent Pitman

Kent Pitman
Location
New England, USA
Title
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
Bio
I've been using the net in various roles—technical, social, and political—for the last 30 years. I'm disappointed that most forums don't pay for good writing and I'm ever in search of forums that do. (I've not seen any Tippem money, that's for sure.) And I worry some that our posting here for free could one day put paid writers in Closed Salon out of work. See my personal home page for more about me.

MY RECENT POSTS

SEPTEMBER 19, 2010 12:02PM

Hawking God

Rate: 22 Flag

Stephen Hawking (and co-author Leonard Mlodinow) made a lot of news this week with the new book, The Grand Design, in which there are apparently provocative statements made about the proving there is no need for God. I've downloaded it on unabridged audio from audible.com but haven't yet listened to it. I'll get to it in due time, but presently listening to the very important book Storms of My Grandchildren: The Truth About the Coming Climate Catastrophe and Our Last Chance to Save Humanity. Still, I've wanted to make some remarks on religion anyway, and the fuss over this new book gives me an occasion to make them.

I often refer to myself as “not religious” at this point in my life, although as you'll see later in this article, that's not quite a proper description. I use the phrase because it works for other people, not because it works for me. It answers a complex question in very few words, adequate to many casual social situations, which is often good in such contexts. But it leaves me feeling that I have papered over some underlying issues that are more complex. So I hope you'll indulge me a longer answer here.

A Brief History of Religion

Religion is probably as old as man, probably long-predating written word. And so your guess is probably as good as mine about how it arose. Even if you showed me a document that told me what day it arose, I wouldn't believe the document. So I'm going to offer a theory that is simply my personal theory. You can subscribe to it or not, it doesn't matter. I don't offer it to get you to agree, only to allow you to understand where I'm coing from.

I think religion was invented by businesspeople. No, not modern businesspeople. I don't mean it's part of some modern corporate conspiracy, although there are probably people who think that. Not even some two thousand year old conspiracy, even though I'm sure some people believe that. I mean something much older, dating back to a time before any civilization we now recognize, when mankind was probably already organized into communities and had been communicating non-verbally, and was finally starting to share ideas using this amazing new technology: spoken language.

I imagine this to have been long, long before eras like ancient Greece, where people had gotten so organized that there could perhaps be a legitimate leisure class. I don't know if there were people in charge of others or if people were just collaborating as equal. Probably the former, but who knows? What I imagine is that there was a lot of opportunity to use language when people needed to be working, and that this could have been dangerous. It was probably important to focus on food and protection. And yet, the questions of life are staggering and must surely have occupied much of early man's thoughts.

Certainly the surviving records of later times show religion as central to nearly everything. How could a species new to linguistic thought and the exchange of ideas not feel overwhelmed by concerns about “why”? I think it could legitimately have occupied a lot of time. And yet surely most of the time of early man needed to be focused on work—feeding and protecting communities. Some clever person surely figured out early on that people had a lot of questions and, like Farmville today, it was sapping everyone's time to spend hours a day fussing. So they just offered answers. The actual answers don't matter, in my view. They didn't have to be the best answers. What mattered was that there were answers. And so, having answers, people were able to get back to work at feeding and protecting their families.

That's the odd thing about antique writings. We can no longer question them and so we must either take them at face value or dismiss them. But the quality of being dead is that you can no longer engage in conversation, you cannot be persuaded or asked to compromise. Somehow here I'm reminded of a remark by Rene Belloq in the movie Raiders of the lost Ark, where, while trying to bury Indiana Jones alive, he says to Indiana: “Who knows? In a thousand years, even you may be worth something.” So, if you believe my hypothetical history of religion, someone once a long time ago “just made something up.” Just like if you or I did. But his words being buried a couple thousand years make them something people have to either embrace or ignore, with very little middle ground.

So, I allege, and you can believe it or not, that the function of religion is to stop people from going around and around in an infinite loop, asking questions for which no answer was likely to be forthcoming. “Where did we come from? Why are we here? Is there life after death?” We all have must face these questions. Our answers differ, but really the questions do not. Fussing over such questions overly is and always has been a drain to productivity. And so we set aside time to think about these things, and that leaves the rest of our time free to do other things.

What Counts as Religion

I have often said, “there are no political answers, only political questions.” That is, it can't be the case that you can ask a question to which one answer is a “political answer” and another answer is “not political.” Politicians often try to disguise political outcomes by claiming they are “just” the status quo, for example, as if the status quo were not a political result. People often try to persuade, or even coerce, others into a different choice by suggesting their response is political, and somehow could be otherwise. In my view, if a question is political, all possible answers to that question are by definition political; they do not subdivide into political answers and non-political answers. If you find someone suggesting otherwise, it's time to stop the conversation and point at the question and identify that as political.

I feel the same about religion and so hereby announce a corrolary: “There are no religious answers, only religious questions.” That is, having asked a question, you can't point to one answer as religious and another as not. If the question provokes a religious answer in some, it provokes a religious answer in all.

Using this newly coined rule of reasoning, I can observe that if the question “Is there a God?” results in a religious answer by saying “yes,” it must by my definition result in a religious answer if you say “no.” Likewise, if you ask the question “How do you characterize God?” then if the answers by some people go on to describe religious thought, the answer even by atheists of “I characterize God as non-existent.” must, by definition, describe religious thought.

And so, by this reasoning, my remark “I am not religious.” is not really true, and probably not even meaningful, being itself paradoxical. One cannot usefully say “I answer religious questions with non-religious answers.” I am also not atheist or agnostic, however. Those terms each have implications that don't describe me. Coming up with a good descriptive term is hard!

And yet, though the terminology is hard, expanding the notion of what a religion is to cover even things like atheism and agnosticism creates a useful simplification that ought to be seen as important even by atheists and agnostics, since it suggests a philosophical and legal foundation for claiming atheism must be offered First Amendment religious protection. I don't see any reason that atheists should be threatened by that classification.

Hawking his Book

According to some media reports, Hawking has said there is no need for God, although other reports say this summary is somewhat sensationalizing. It probably won't hurt his book sales any. The Telegraph quotes him as saying specifically, “Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist. ... It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.” It seems to me he's just saying that his personal theory does not require any entity that he would call God.

That seems a reasonable claim to me, though still a religious one. It answers the questions that religions answer. And it's okay with me to have a religion that has no God. Certainly there are religions that have more than one God. Once you're into the realm of “other than one,” the number zero presents itself as an obvious “non-one” option. I think that's a place is where people get confused.

Even if Hawking's theory doesn't need a God to explain Creation, that says nothing about other theories of Creation. So people who are worried that he's proven there is no God can rest easy. All he's done is provide one more way to conceive The Great Unknowable, one more choice among religions.

And I've heard no claim that Hawking's theory explains how any initial set of conditions came into existence—if “initial” is a good word for a system with no beginning and no end. Even if the Universe was here for all time, that dodges the question since there has to be a context in which time exists, especially if you believe Einstein that it's just another dimension like the three dimensions of space. It begs the alternative question “Where did that context come from?”

René Descartes offered us the useful observation “Cogito ergo sum.” It follows from our very existence and ability to ask religious questions that we do exist. In my personal philosophical belief, our Universe's origin is the only observable that cannot be explained by physics. It seems to me a simple matter of fact that the Universe did not create itself. And yet it is here. We must accept as fact that Creation happened, but any sense of why or how is outside of our own frame of reference and cannot be known.

The Universal Question

I sometimes refer to the circumstance or situation that put our Universe into play or that offers it a context in which to exist as “God.” God, in my view, is that which is outside, that which explains Creation. It's impossible to say whether that's active process or entity, or whether perhaps it just is or was an enabling circumstance. So I don't try. Hawking's apparent goal was to find a minimal set of initial conditions. I'll look forward to reading about how he worked through it. it sounds like an approach that would be emotionally satisfying to me.

I most certainly don't believe in any God who created the Universe while muttering “let there be light” under his breath. I don't believe in any God who keeps tabs on the world, like a baby-sitter, or who answer requests or prayers, like Santa Claus. It makes no sense to me to conceive of God in so complex a way. It really doesn't match the data, and it's far from being a simple hypothesis, so it runs afoul of Occam's razor.

For God to watch over us would be like me having an ant farm where I meddled in the lives of the ants—except that we here on Earth are much smaller to any such God than ants are to people. And already ants are so inconsquentially small even to me that I can't imagine following their lives closely enough to be opining on questions of whether they kill each other for moral reasons, whether they use my name in vain, or whether they violate any of the other Commandments. If there were a thinking God, I'm sure we'd be too small to be of interest. He'd probably be thinking about much bigger problems instead—like “Is there a God?”

No matter what the power of any extant entity in whatever frame of reference, the question would still recursively present itself: “In what frame of context do I exist?” The question is, if you'll pardon the pun, truly universal. And whether God were religious or an atheist, that would be a matter of his personal faith, not a proof he was right.

Maybe Hawking's contribution will be to have found God not in some omniscient superbeing but in something small, like a set of physical laws. Reducing the size of the initial conditions needed to kickstart the Universe might be a step in the right direction, like trying to find how life began. Can one reduce and reduce the necessary conditions of creating the universe until they simply vanish? Or will there always be a question remaining, however trivial? It feels a bit like Zeno's Paradox of the Tortoise and Achilles and it's hard to say for sure.

I may have more to say when I've listened to Hawking's book.


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Great titling, interesting thoughts (as always). I find myself with my tongue in my cheek as I say Dubito ergo cogito sum, which loosely translates to "I doubt, therefore I think I am".

I watched Larry King 'interview' Hawking last week, it was slow going and I finally put the captioning on, but it was essentially Hawking responding with prerecorded passages from the new book. which gave some insight but little clarity. He's certainly in a disadvantaged place in an interview. In closure, I agreed with the concept of 'no god', but proving it is beyond even Hawking. He is a great mind of the age though, and I'll be interested in your review and commentary when you've listened and digested (that would take me about 6 months!)
Beautiful piece, Kent...xox
This is a great blog. If I could I'd recommend it as Editor's Pick. You have really tackled some tough issues and scientific theory.
Best Wishes,
Blittie
"It seems to me a simple matter of fact that the Universe did not create itself. And yet it is here"

It's here. We're here. It either created itself or was created by some entity that created itself, which is the same thing. Or it just is, always has been, exists without a beginning, the ultimate mystery. The concept of God as existing outside and/or before Creation (i.e., the Universe(s)) adds nothing and explains nothing, but for me the concept of God as metaphor for all that's unknown, probably unknowable, gives me a name, shorthand for the source of awe

I believe religious experience begins with the first self-aware consciousness that is capable of wonder, I imagine the night sky as perhaps the first object of that wonder, I know it inspires the deepest feelings of awe in me

Religious institutions and dogmatic systems of belief were created to control, manipulate and exploit the power of religious feelings, to trap and cripple individual religious experience and expression, they are "the dark side of the Force"
Higgs boson, and CERN research aside, Stephan's quite the man! I, like you am waiting to read this one... RRR
i just finished reading it and it is very good.

what was said about a god was that it is an extream and unpredictible variable and therefore can not take a place in a mathmatical equasion. The book is based on what science can model excluding the influence of any god like variables.

however; getting my mind to accept ten dimensions was a lot of slow reading and rereading.
I wrote some replies and somehow OS dropped them without attaching them. Probably it thought I was spam. (Maybe I'll have to check The Cornfield to see if they went there.)
Abby, glad you liked the title. I'm sorry the Hawking interview on Larry King was disappointing. They probably shouldn't have done it in realtime and instead should have allowed him to go slowly, pulling out dead time after-the-fact. But maybe Larry King wasn't up to that. The trouble even with pre-recorded stuff done as a block (where he gets all the questions and then records answers) is that the questions can't build on a previous answer, so you really need to just ask a question and then let him slowly get an answer out.

Robin, thanks for the support, and for the PM about the typo, which I have since fixed.

Blittle, that's very kind of you. Thanks for vote!

Roy, it's great of you to drop by and offer your thoughts. I really appreciate it. I agree that to some extent religion is about control, but on that I think Andrew Lloyd Webber hit the nail on the head in JC Superstar when he spoke of it having started small with modest goals and only later running out of control. In the end, I suppose it amounts to the same, but I honestly think the people who started organized religion, and many who still sustain it, mean well. It's just that the nature of the beast is that those who are not power hungry don't seek it and those who are, well, they end up controlling it. Hardly surprising I think that the outcome is as it is.
Religion is mostly concerned with intent. Science is concerned with structure. Hawking merely said that structure indicates no intent is necessary. It does not dismiss intent any more than it dismisses intent when someone is struck by lightning. Maybe Zeus really does throw a few bolts. But Zeus isn't necessary.
Patrick, I'll try to do a follow-up when I've read it. You can come back then and share your thoughts, too. :)

WS, he really only wants 10 dimensions? I don't follow it regularly but had thought the number was up to 11. Even so, it feels weirdly inelegant, though I suppose the eleventh might be controversial. I'll have to see what they say. There was an excellent series on PBS that tried to help visualize some of those dimensions. It was about string theory, I think. If I get some time, I'll see if I can look it up.
WS, clarifying my previous, it's not 11 dimensions vs 10 that seems inelegant, but any number remotely that large... Still, design of Universes is not my career specialty.

Jan, yes, intent is another way of getting at it. I think really that's what Hawking is probably getting at, from what I hear in summaries such as WS provides, and others I've heard out on the information superhighway: People look for big complex explanations, but probably the explanation is simpler (by some metric), and does not require intent. Intent is very complex. Psychologists do not understand it nearly as well as physicists understand physics.
Metaphysical thought had a beginning and growth process, and it also will have an end ... not soon enough for me. Only ten and a few thousand years ago five types of "humans" walked this Earth, and all had religion. Living in the past, however common, puts you in this company. Apes when forced to deal with the intellectual capacity technology develops in them must then react to their shadows, their dreams, the stars that do not move like the others ... ad nauseum.

Our Universe obviously formed like a soap bubble, growing at a fantastic rate, slowing, and yes, it will pop. The questions, then, are, does the pop start a new bubble, does a collision with another Universe start a new bubble? Or, likely, is it all these and more, a whole new set of questions ...
Fascinating. Rated.
I like what JSand says about religion with regard to intent, it seems as elegant a word as is possible, given the word 'consciousness' has been usurped and so bastardized by popular culture.

Once we give our our desire to characterize "God" as an anthropomorphic being that we either follow or reject, and that seems to be a difficult proposition for most of us, the idea of something greater than we are is not as difficult to entertain, but then, what are it's qualities and characteristics and where is our proof? I don't think we can answer those questions even now.
I meant "once we give up our desire..."
Your posts are always good reading! Being an Agnostic, I don't particularly believe in anything in particular. I do believe that there is some meaning to our existence, but I have no idea what that may be. Perhaps the Universe itself is God, and that makes us all part of God.
I've been listening to Michio Kaku's weekly show on WBAI (NYC) affiliate of the Pacifica radio network for decades trying to decipher snippets of his brilliance. Here's some of his commentary on ten, eleven, etc. dimensions:

http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dimens.html

I think there seems to be no limit to the breadth of areas You are able to discuss logically and dispassionately. If there were a dean of OS it would have to be You if for no other reason than consistency of brilliance.



-R-



Your cornfield idea is an example of the kindly professorial brilliance You bring regularly to us, and Your first candidate an excellent choice.
Thorough and thoughtful, Kent; I enjoyed reading this. I guess I'd like to think that God is not a being but being itself--what Anselm called "than which beyond thinking cannot go." Reducing God to a being, even an omniscient and omnipotent being, is problematic because human beings are beings, and they can thereby project their natures onto God's, which, as history attests, causes no end of trouble. I guess for me, the purpose of religion, as opposed to debates about whether or not God exists, is human flourishing, human well-being, and, for me, that means absolute abhorence for anything that causes us to think, even for a moment, that cruelty is an acceptable behavior.
Death by Black Hole: And Other Cosmic Quandaries

"Explores theories of the universe from the Big Bang to the Final Whimper. An astrophysicist with the American Museum of Natural History, where he serves at its world-famous Hayden Planetarium, Neil deGrasse Tyson has written a popular account of the evolution of the universe: its past, present, and future--from its beginning with a big bang to its ending with a whimper. "

Know this book, Kent? It has an essay in it about 'intelligent design' that is brilliant and is related to this topic your discussed today. He is one interesting man.
Bonnie, glad the title was a winner for ya. :)

Oahusurfer, I wasn't sure what to make of the “not soon enough for me” part. Maybe you could expand on that.

Fusun, I'm glad it held your interest. Thanks for chiming in.

Susanne, I think you're right if you're saying the desire to anthropomorphize clouds matters, although my personal feeling is that Hawking is on the right track seeking something smaller, not larger. It's like a mathematical series that you want to converge if you want it to have a resolution. If you get bigger, rather than smaller, it doesn't, and you recursively have only worse problems explaining things, not better.
Great Post. I am not religious, hah! I agree with you on a lot of this. I have been looking into Deism, as in he came, he created, he left us to our on resources. Probably bullshit, but it gives me something to do. As far as why it was created, my theory was law and order. I think maybe that somehow they had to convince people that murdering your kids or cannibalism or rape or a million other things were wrong, and the only way to do it was convince them that there was a hell. Throw in a heaven if you're good, and it makes a little sense. It may also go arm in arm with your profit theory. I don't know, I just enjoy reading great stuff like this. Thanks! As a last thought, our good friend Ryan (Stud) said if there was a God, it was Steven Hawking. He was a great fan of this man!
Intent implies teleology, a plan for ultimate ends. In general religious people see the universe anthropomorphically, assume there is a copy of human mental mechanisms encompassing the entire universe. Science in general discards this as an artifact of primitive human thinking.
The most revelatory and interesting among many interesting point you make is this:" Some clever person surely figured out early on that people had a lot of questions and, like Farmville today, it was sapping everyone's time to spend hours a day fussing. So they just offered answers...They didn't have to be the best answers. What mattered was that there were answers. And so, having answers, people were able to get back to work at feeding and protecting their families."

There are many questions I want answered of my fellow man: Why would you accept thus and such as true? How can you be so sure about this or that? Why can;t you listen to or consider other possibilities? Are you sure you know the truth--or Truth?

But one thing I don't need or expect or want to be answered is "what does it all mean?" Oh sure; I ask myself that on occasion. But I don't expect an answer, which is why I find no fault with your comment, “There are no religious answers, only religious questions.”

Great title, btw. And absolutely R.
One additional point. The assumption of a god implies a consciousness which thinks and therefor plans for the unrolling of the consequences of the action reaction, cause and effect, which has bloomed as the almost infinite complexity and beauty of the universe we see around us. I have thought about this a great deal and come to the conclusion that he process of human thinking involves toying with virtual possibilities and finally choosing one for a desired outcome. The universe, on the other hand does not play with virtual possibilities, it indulges in all variations of real interactions and permits only a particular variety to continue to exist and create new pathways. Analyzed from the point of view of creative intellect this is the same as thinking but thinking without consciousness. It can be seen as a kind of god not-god.
I'm hasty to comment before I've read through this whole post. I think you are on the mark with it being created by businessmen, so to speak. I believe religion was designed as an economic tool—it kept the classes divided. The rich got richer, and the poor got poorer. And the latter were told to like it!

I am with Hawking, as I don't believe science and religion can play nice. The fundamentals are too divisive, and rarely the twain shall meet.

Okay, back to reading the rest of what is obviously a well-written piece.
K,

The reason the primitive Copper, Bronze and even earlier Age concept of metaphysics can't end soon enough for me is I actually am engaged in what all humans ought to be doing, planning for our eventual escape, first from this planet, then Solar System, and finally Universe and/or Dimension. Floating this obvious bit of truth around OS is a sure way to troll up ridicule- though, not curiously, not from anyone with any true knowledge of the past or a good handle on the future.

This gets a lot of laughs from right wing primitives, but, not in silicon valley or CERN or anyplace folks with intelligence actually spend time. I would remind our dear readers that private individuals have already been up in space, and this has happened in but a decade ... what do you think the next decade will hold?

Singularity!
Humans have existed in their present form for a mere two million years, an extremely short time from an evolutionary point of view. Technology and specifically, biology, is opening up avenues for modifying humanity in all sorts of odd ways. Robotics and artificial intelligence are both in their infancies and are progressing rapidly. Humans are very much tied to this planet by evolution and biology in numerous ways and merely moving a minuscule distance above or below the surface of the planet requires extreme devices and precautions to survive. To speak only of going the short distance to the Moon requires extraordinary gear and presents huge dangers. If we move away from our native planet we shall have to become something other than human as we know it.
I guess I should have defined what I meant by "something greater," meaning a better description or idea.
I don't think I've ever read such a stream of foolishness anywhere ever. Oh well. I guess ignorance is bliss.
Ive always thought hawking was kind of overrated. the media loves him ever since his 1st or so book turned bestseller many yrs ago.. think it was late 80s. hawking is a modern substitute for einstein. whose fame as a scientist possibly may never be rivalled ever. the public cant tell the difference. but just about any serious physicist will tell you, hawkings accomplishments are not really on an einstein level. he hasnt even won the nobel prize. now, he has done a lot, and I respect his intellectual achievements. but think the public is not too discerning on this one. moreover, his random musings on god are kind of unscientific and seem more appropriate for a blog than science page headlines. einstein liked to muse on god, but it was more like a metaphor for einstein.
Kenny, thanks for the compliment. And yes, the Universe = God thing certainly is among the possible ways to see things. Thanks for that.

Caracalla, I don't know what my position is on that. I appreciate your offering your thoughts, but you went an awful big ways down a particular hypothetical about me without checking. And I had just said I'm not religious, so whatever objections I might have (if I even have any after some reflection), they wouldn't be religious in nature. (As far as changes to the Earth, the primary thing I'm focused on is survivability of the human species.)

Mark, thanks for the pointer. I'll have a listen. And thanks for the compliments.

Jerry, thanks for sharing your perspective. I think there's no harm in a philosophy that abhors cruelty, although people will construe the details of that quite differently, I guess.

Davy, I'm not sure if it's my thoughts or Hawking's you fear, but it's okay not to stop by if there's a sequel.

Dr. Spudman, I've heard of the book but not read it. Thanks for the recommendation.

Tears, I'm glad you found the reasoning to your taste. I hope the book turns out to be good, given I haven't read it and you're taking my words as a recommendation. :) As for doubting, I tend to think that's always healthy.
scanner, thanks for the interesting collection of thoughts and the remembrance of the studman.

Jan, it's a good point. It's not even been proven that we have free will or free thought, so expecting it in the Universe is a bit tough.

Nikki, I've seen some experiments on Alan Alda's series on Discovery Channel or Scientific American or wherever it is that suggest that people's brains are sort of compulsive at explaining, that we are story-making engines as part of how we interpret the world. Perhaps we are unable to even contemplate this issue without constructing at least some story in which it can sit. It tend to think that's true. I used to think there was such a thing as abstract thought that people in college, for example, were taught to do. Increasingly I have come to believe that even abstract thought is just concrete thought about an imaginary place that has very blah properties that some people are taught exists. Rather than abstracting, I think we just build correspondences, and can't tell the difference. I guess my point here is that the concrete form is almost a prerequisite for perception of any kind, or so I claim.
You wrote "you can't point to one answer as religious and another as not." Sorry, but you've set up a false dichotomy or more precisely a tautology, and of course, it can't be argued with. But that won't stop me from trying.

Your premise leads immediately to a semantic debate about whether science is just another religion. I say not, and I say that because science is willing to change in the face of evidence and religion for the most part is not -- see Galileo and the Stem Cell debate for examples. So given my premise, a scientific answer is not a religious answer.

As for the origin of religion, I agree it is as old as humankind, but I say it was born of superstition, ignorance and habit. Say for example, ancient man -- beset on all sides by things far beyond explanation -- perceived the roaring thunder as the voice of an angry god and lightning as his weapons.

Too much rain or too little meant the god was especially angry and so something or someone was offered as a sacrifice to appease this angry god, and it stopped or started raining -- and the rest was history and habit. The "understanding" of modern religious fundamentalists is not all that far removed from this scenario.

By the way, I caught an interview with Leonard Mlodinow on the tube, and he struck me as being a bit uncomfortable and defensive about getting caught up in the tempest about God-denial -- and that was the primary initial reaction about the book from laymen. He stressed the book DOES NOT deny the existence of God, but rather offers a proof the Universe could have come into existence without a Creator. He also suggested the book was intended for laymen, which suggests he has a very different definition of layman than I.

To my mind such questions are the realm of theo-philosophy, not science, and ultimately they must remain unanswerable, for they inevitably fall on the horns of the chicken/egg dilemma. Hawking may be brilliant, but I defy him to answer even the simplest question in all this -- if everything came from nothing, where did the nothing come from?

Or as my son put it so brilliantly and eloquently at 8, "Dad, did Adam have a belly-button?"
Jan, if there were a God capable of thought, the thought wouldn't have to reflect itself dynamically. We could be part of Universe 5.0, for example, the first 4 having failed. Kind of like Babylon 5. Maybe it took some tweaking to get it right. I heard once someone say that the reason physical laws are as they are is that it didn't work to have them otherwise; that is, perhaps the universe is just the solution to a particularly complex equation that had only one solution. Then again, maybe there were other roots that could have been or are in parallel. But it's doubtful that arbitrary solutions are possible, at least I doubt it.

Pedant, I think there's something to a separation of Church and Physical State theory, yeah. There isn't as much overlap as some people fear. It seems to drive either crazy, but most of the actual conflict comes from people co-opting organized religion for selfish ends, I suspect, and not from the religious thought in the abstract.

Oahu, I guess that clarifies things. Hmm. I'm not looking forward to the Singularity by the way. I'm well familiar with the concept by I agree with Jaron Lanier in his book You Are Not a Gadget that it's something of an exercise in nihilism to be excited about the Singularity.

Jan, I'm a little worried that to stay on our home planet will require us to become other than human. :(

Susanne, thanks for clarifying your remark.

vzn, you may be right. I'm not the right one to judge. And people probably make accommodation to him for his physical disability, which has surely held him back. Not to mention he's a role model for what can still be accomplished against extraordinary obstacles. So I'm not sure it's possible to judge fairly—it's very “apples and oranges” I think.
One more thing -- I'm brazen enough to add a corollary to Descartes' dictum: I think; therefore, I am ... I am that I may be.
The god angle has been hyped (probably a smart marketing move). Hawking's book is very interesting, but the stuff about religion is generally limited to a discussion of whether god is, as Laplace put it, a necessary part of this hypothesis. Hawking says no, not surprisingly. But that is not the reason people should read it. Rather, it is a good introduction to the basic implications of quantum physics and M theory - without any difficult equations!

That his views on god are presented as big news is probably just a result of the way believers have used his previous writings. When he finished "A Brief History of Time" by saying that the discovery of a grand unified theory of physics would allow us to "know the mind of God", many seem to have interpreted that as a sign that he was religious, and that modern physics requires a creator. I think he decided to take this opportunity to set them straight. He uses "God" the way Einstein used it, as a metaphor for the laws of nature.

But he does make a very sound argument for his rejection of the "God hypothesis", based on the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum physics. He shows very convincingly that this interpretation blows up the classic argument that the order in the universe is evidence of a creator. If every possible universe that can exist does in fact exist, it is no longer particularly surprising that we find ourselves in a universe where creatures like us are possible. The argument that this would be unlikely no longer applies.

I definitely recommend it, and not just for physics buffs (in fact, they will find little new there). He is very good at explaining complex ideas in simple ways. And modern physics is mindblowing stuff.
Although I didn't say "Jan, I'm a little worried that to stay on our home planet will require us to become other than human. :( " I must refer to all other species that did stay on our home planet and there are very few that remained the same under the constant pressures of other species and rather radical changes in our environment. We seem to be violently efficient in eliminating any pressures from other species but to claim our conquest of the environment is total, peculiarly, radically changes our environment by that total conquest. Cro-Magnon man certainly lived in radically different world with radically different pressures than the the current human environment offers. A couple of hundred thousand years of comparable changes will surely make immense changes in human physiology and neurology assuming we restrain our eagerness to destroy our selves and our planet. There is nothing off Earth to match what we have here and even such basics as living under a different gravity will perform changes in humanity that will probably be quite radical. In the last few decades technology has revealed possible physiological modifications that are certain to be utilized in even our relatively near future.
Tom, my argument is easily confused with the notion of saying that science is another religion. That's not my intent. Rather, I mean to say that if you answer that science is the source of the answer to religious questions, then in that case science becomes a religion of sorts. Certainly it must be protected as religions would be protected. You can't have it be the case that some people enjoy freedom of their beliefs while others don't.

Consider the neutral case of saying everyone has a name, and then someone coming along and claiming to have no name. We must still be able to name that person. So while it might be the case that that person rejects naming, it can simultaneously be that “the guy without a name” then becomes that person's name. That's not the same as saying that non-naming is the same as naming, it's just saying that some problems really can't be evaded as much as we think they are. At the end of the day, when they fill out a form to get a birth certificate or a driver's license, it can't be the case that nothing goes on the form. The form may be empty, if the government would permit it (though I doubt they will), but it can't be “not there.”

I agree with you that the nothing had to come from somewhere, or at least that question has to be answered. Although one possible answer, not particularly satisfying, might be that in fact it is not there. That is to say, if the Universe is defined by some equation U=0, that is, there is no universe, and everything else is clever algebra, so it becomes U=matter + antimatter, which might still sum to zero, or something goofy like that, then the problem is it could still collapse into itself and be nothing. And then what would remain? Nothing again? And how would we prove we were ever here. We can prove it now, while the terms are stretched apart, but to whom that will not be lost if someone simplifies the equation?

Good job on the corollary, by the way.

Norwonk, thanks for the rundown on the book. I look a little more forward to reading it. Though I'm not big on the every possible universe theory. We'll see how he does on that. I think that's a bit of a cop-out... an episode of Sliders gone awry.
Jan, my concern is that there's little time to evolve naturally, and there's a lot of ethical restriction against man-made evolution. That doesn't leave a lot of options, and Climate Change tipping points could create a rather urgent need to be otherwise. Hard to know what would happen in that case but it doesn't sound pretty. NASA sometimes talks about wishing we could go travel to some alien worlds. I say we just build a capsule and leave it sitting on the ground for a while and we'll find ourselves on one soon enough.
It's not something either one of us can simply propose and conclude. The variables are huge and comprehension of the technology is making huge and unpredictable leaps. Whatever is not acceptable today may become even highly fashionable in the not too distant future. Aside from the modifications in body and neurological structure employment opportunities may open up to people willing to accept major modifications. And the relationship of mental modification to social attitude may also be up for grabs. It's all a wide open area for wild speculation, much of which is probably invalid but no one can say.
Wow -- have you given me a headache with your reply. I'm with the Native Americans on this God thing -- He/She/It is the Great Mystery.

As for this:

"At the end of the day, when they fill out a form to get a birth certificate or a driver's license, it can't be the case that nothing goes on the form."

True, but apparently, the Omnipotent Invisible Whites-Only God of All Teabaggers is able to convert Hawaii to Kenya on a birth certificate.
Discussions like this ought to be a lot more common- but, know full well that regardless of the emotional responses the average human has to, well, everything, it won't change the course of singularity for a fraction of a second ... the World is very quickly segmenting into a new version of what's always been ... a small number of humans so far advanced over not just the hoi polloi but also the so-called educated class to the point that most everything that is said flies straight over the knee-jerk reacting heads of the scared, weak and ignorance security blanket wearers. Watch it happen so fast your head spins, and watch how it is global, the smartest people everywhere v. those who could have Googled anything and everything to catch up, but would not or could not due to an un-healthy inability to disassociate with the past ... learn from it, don't live in it!
oops K, looks like another candidate for children of the corn may have appeared on the horizon...
This is a fascinating post, Kent. I've read a bit about the evolution of language and other features of human intelligence, in the context of the evolution of cognition; there are great questions that remain open. Two books I've especially liked are Sterelny's Thought in a Hostile World: The Evolution of Human Cognition and Mithin's The Prehistory of the Mind: The Cognitive Origins of Art, Religion and Science. I can't even summarize this work--it's been a few years, and my reading was a bit targeted--but I like the area a lot. I'll have to pick up Hawking's book.

Essentially, on the origins of religions, I suspect you're right. I think it's well accepted that (a) people are "hardwired" to find patterns in what happens in the world around them, (b) people are also hardwired to look for explanations for patterns--one reason being that a general explanation can be held in one's head, as a concise way to organize a lot of disparate patterns, and (c) people tend to prefer explanations that tie into their own familiar experiences, and what's more familiar than personal, causal agency? That is, Something happened as the result of an action I took. If you see patterns in some natural phenomena, it's natural to think of them being the result of some agency. If that agency isn't observable, you get gods.

This is way over-simplified, but at least it's an explanation of sorts. :-)
Thought-provoking, well-written, and even amusing at times (in a good way). I'll return for more like this...