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The Open Salon (beta) blog: Updates, answers and more

Kerry Lauerman

Kerry Lauerman
Location
New York, New York, USA
Birthday
July 19
Title
New Projects editor
Company
Salon Media Group
Bio
I've been an editor at Salon in various capacities since January 2000. You can reach me at: kerry at salon dot com. I post Open Calls on my Twitter feed, too (kerrylauerman)

FEBRUARY 5, 2009 3:50PM

A note on Open -- and "open"

Rate: 61 Flag

There have been a handful of fascinating posts about Open Salon lately; what it is, what it needs to be, what it isn't. We're reading them all. And if there's a common thread that runs through them all, one that bubbles up periodically here, it's: Is this a community site or not?

It's not, at least in any traditional sense. Open Salon is designed as a publishing platform with curatorial tools -- for you and us -- to help readers of the site more easily find valuable content. The sociability of the site (messaging, commenting, etc.) is deliberately bare bones. We wanted to make it easy for you to communicate with each other, and encourage you to gather in any way you want. If you use it as a community site -- that's great, too. But that should come with an understanding that, as Open grows and we spend more time developing it, we're investing in ways to better optimize it for writers (or cartoonists, videographers, photographers, etc.) so that they can build a bigger audience. We want members to have the best experience on Open that they possibly can, but it's a site that's skewed toward creators wanting to create (or readers wanting to comment or rate) and less toward social networking. (If you're interested in joining a moderated online community, I'm happy to suggest two exemplary ones: this one and this one.)

Relatedly, when we're making an Editor's Pick or moving content to the Open or Salon covers, we're just looking for posts we find smart and interesting. That's it. I elaborated a while back here. We're not trying to use the cover as a community page, as a reward for new members, or a way to curry favor with any particular bloggers. We try to treat each post equally. You might not agree with all of our decisions -- we're human, there are great posts we miss -- but smart and interesting are our only real criteria. And the number of posts that meet that criteria daily is growing at a mind-blowing pace.

We also know that the experience of putting yourself out there as a creator can reap wonderful rewards -- and bitter tears. Feedback is great, and the connections you can make with readers through a blog, I'd imagine many of you would agree, is amazing. It's utterly transformed the media.  But ask anyone who writes online about the downside of reader feedback and I can pretty much promise you the reaction will echo Joan's description here or Gary Kamiya's impressions here. Each of my Salon colleagues can probably recite a tale of being the subject of an unspeakably cruel post -- we're not talking about a vicious critique, but a personal attack -- if they've followed the Google trail far enough, or if they've read the letters on their stories. People on the Internet can be unspeakably mean. And if you're creating content online, they will find you.

We've deliberately given you tools to minimize the threat so that you can edit your comments, close your comments and filter your messages. But Open is. . . well, an "open" site, that's free. Jerks will continue to join. And, in my semi-scientific observation, will leave when people refuse to listen them. I'd like to take credit for keeping out the trolls and riff-raff, but you're the ones who have largely shooed them away, using the only proven method known to work: Ignoring them.

That doesn't mean we don't take complaints seriously. We monitor all complaints as closely as we can, and we move when we feel we should.

But. The vast majority of the complaints we get on posts/comments/bloggers are that they are "creepy," "inappropriate" or "annoying." And I'm not trying to minimize those complaints: Lord knows there have been posts -- and posters -- that fit those descriptions well, and I would've loved to have zapped them into the ether. But the standard must be kept very high. And rather than going into contorted specific legalese, let me just say that for content to be deleted, it needs to be pretty damn bad. When the threshold is crossed, we move. When it's not, we don't -- and urge you to ignore it.

I'll keep this comments thread open and answer questions as often as I can all day.

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Exactly what I hoped to hear.
Yep - open means "Open". Nuts and all.
Good to know some updates. Thanks!
Open is as Open does, so to speak. Thanks for coming into the fray, Kerry.
Thanks Kerry for all of your hard work and guidance.
Thank you and thank you. I followed the link and read Joan's piece. Necessary stuff.
"Jerks will continue to join....(and) will leave when people refuse to listen them." Child Psychology 101: People want attention and, if they can't get positive attention, they will gladly take the negative attention. If we don't read, comment or click, they will go find another site with people who will. thanks for a reasoned and explanatory post. I sometimes wonder if OS was set up to examine online social relationships for some PhD's dissertation:-) It would be a fascinating study....
A heartfelt, living, throbbing THANK YOU.

[Any ETA on a crumbtrail for our own comments? ]
And the number of posts that meet that criteria daily [for Editor's pick] is growing at a mind-blowing pace.

Perhaps you might consider, though it would be more work, having two daily cover pages, sort of like having a morning and an evening newspaper.

Otherwise, thanks for the clarification about the intention for the site.
I completely agree with you, though, those were a lot of words you used Kerry. Chuckle.
Amen and thank you.
Thank you for this. Seriously. My questions have been answered, so again, thanks.
Very useful information and much appreciated. I have been very disappointed (particularly lately) with the frequent "nonsense" and personal attack/counterattack posts, and the lengthy comments that just jam up the activity feed and the highest rated/ most read columns.
I understand from your comments above that the criteria for an EP or Cover are "smart and interesting." Is this really all there is to it? I ask because some of the same people seem to always garner these picks, and quite frankly, some of their posts are neither "smart nor interesting" (I know...beauty is in the eye of the beholder) but they seem to just automatically get chosen. Just wondering. Thanks again for the information.
As long as anonymous trolls continue to have a venue--and the unfettered right--to call other people dirty names, that's all I care about! Thanks. ;)
This is great to hear---especially the part about continued emphasis being on the publishing aspects of OS. Don't misunderstand me. I've met some wonderful people here, and I look forward to daily interaction with them as much as I do the "real-life" people in my life. But I've made these friends by having the privilege to read what they publish---the "friendship" is just icing on the cake.

Besides, having a site to publish on has changed my life in so many ways---damn, I should do a post on it! It's better than all the hours of therapy, and you all don't charge me $225 for the 50 minute hour.

LOVE IT!
OS has three virtues: One: It is not the web site of a "news/politico" geek, all news nerdom all the time.
Two: Voices are not sanitized for our protection. You can find the banal, but you can also find the fresh point of view.
Third: It satisfies the human desire to sing, write, draw, tell stories without the burden of being comodified. Do it, cause you want to to do it. Gee, how many places are there left that we can do that.

Added benefit: feedback and readers. Spats and drama are also included in the price.
Kerry, thanks for the all the hard work of keeping this site up and dealing with misfits like myself. I have a quick question with, I'm assuming, a not so quick answer. There have been complaining of this site not allowing for 'free speech'. I have read the TOS and no where does it say that such a thing needs to be upheld. But because it is a TOS, it is worded rather awkwardly, well with respect to how most of us speak. Can you spell this idea of 'free speech' out a little more clearly for us if you get a chance? Thanks again and have a nice night.
Thanks for the clear mission statement. Now we can go back to mind frakkin' more important things....
What m.a.h. and grif said. And huzzah!

I also post here more for the writing practice and exposure - having an easy public outlet has definitely motivated me to write more often and on topical things that would be hard to publish (since I still haven't gotten my dream job as a columnist somewhere...). And I also most value the people here who put some thought and craft into their writing, even if it is at times "drafty" (first drafts from good writers are still very fine things! and there are many good writers here, far more than get attention on the cover and most read/rated lists).

I've been involved in other online communities and there are wonderful things about them, but they're a different animal. It's been my perception that people are trying to shoehorn OS into being one of those, like forcing the proverbial square peg into a round hole, which is why there are so many requests for changes to OS's structure -- most that I've seen have been focused on trying to make OS resemble a community site. So it's interesting to hear you explain that the structure wasn't set up for that and won't be changed to make it so. (It's also fascinating how human beings will make community wherever they go!)

I do like the interaction -- getting comments from people who read my blog is my favorite part of OS -- but I'm actually glad that management is intent on maintaining their original vision of OS. You can get community in many places and many ways online (not to mention IRL) but what OS is offering is rare and valuable. If there are any changes made, I'd like to see them in the direction of supporting and encouraging strong writing.
Thanks for the clarifications, Kerry.
Thank you for obfuscating the issues further.

From your mission statement (top left hand of cover, click "What is Open Salon"? perhaps time for an update since it still says "Welcome to our Public Beta") :

"Open Salon is a social content site... you can start blogging immediately -- and rating and commenting on other posts, messaging other members, and more. You can also invite other members into Open Salon from your own blog page."

True, "social content site" is undefined, if not positively Alice in Wonderlandish. But a close text reading of the excerpt above shows one reference to "blogging" (presumably this is the "publishing platform" you refer to) and at least four "social activities": rating, commenting, messaging, inviting and "and more."

So pardon some of us for misunderstanding the nature and purpose of the site. And what "not a community site, in a traditional sense" might mean, I cannot begin to fathom, especially the "traditional" bit when it comes to what could have been (and I hope still can be) a grand, successful experiment in going beyond "tradition" in the fifteen year tenure of the Internet.

But what is truly unfathomable is that while most of the posts I have read refer mainly to the need for an e-mail blocker that users can control to safeguard themselves from harassment, you refer to that issue not once in your post.

Instead you bring up the straw men of "cruel" posts and "vicious" attacks on open threads, which, by the way, if they rise to certain levels presumably violate the TOS, and it is your responsibility to adjudicate and, if necessary, take action. If we ever saw some responsiveness on your part in these matters, most of us would be satisfied, I believe. Our judgments might differ, but we individually and as a community (!) can take care of most "open thread" matters.

So the issues really boil down to two, in my opinion:
(1) What about an "e-mail blocker" with teeth that the user controls?
(2) How about some evidence of responsiveness to complaints about violations of the TOS in the posts, especially when the flag feature is so invitingly displayed, or in comments?

What's that? I shouldn't be looking for an EP or Cover any time soon? Ah well, c'est la guerre, as the good Monsieur might say. I say:

WOOF
Thanks to all who have commented!

M B -- Very true. Someone coould be writing a heckuva thesis on this stuff.

Verbal -- Soonish? We've got two rollouts before then.

ktm -- it's informal, but we actually do fully change the cover twice a day. It usually ends up being more gradual than that, so you might not even bea able to tell.

SF -- I'm out of breath!

Grif -- Yes, that really is all there is to it.

m.a.h. -- "But I've made these friends by having the privilege to read what they publish---the 'friendship' is just icing on the cake." That's a very nice way of putting it. (Even thought I *hate* cake.)

stellaa -- Agree -- esp. that last point. The greatness of interaction is always matched, I think, with inevitable drama. But that's life, eh?

Aaron -- Of course we want to protect speech -- but as the courts have always held, not all speech is free. We rarely delete content, but withhold the right to when we feel we should -- or have to.

Jane -- Gotta love the nuts.

Juliet -- Thanks -- and thank you for your illuminating posts.

Silkstone -- Thanks. It IS encouraging that people intuitively want to band together. It's cool to see.
CCC, I have the best email blocker, your finger on the delete button. Don't read. Gee, all the demands for rules, procedures and authority. Cripes. The world is not here to constantly protect us and we cannot alway demand protection from the world.
Someone coould be writing a heckuva thesis on this stuff.

I think so, too. Let me know...
yeah, I confess to being puzzled as to why people can't just delete email if they don't want to read it. I do it all the time. I don't feel harassed by it. Comments are a little different, as you can't help but read those if it's your blog.
CCC: You're welcome?

"(1) What about an 'e-mail blocker' with teeth that the user controls?"

I'm not saying we'll never offer something like that down the road, but more elaborate community tools -- including more elaborate intra-messaging -- aren't our highest priorities right now.

"(2) How about some evidence of responsiveness to complaints about violations of the TOS in the posts, especially when the flag feature is so invitingly displayed, or in comments?"

I'm not sure what sort of "evidence" you'd need, but I'm not going to give out details of how we've handled situations on Open. As I say in the post above, we only delete when we feel we have to.
I know this is just begging for trouble, but here goes anyway: Am I the only person who has yet to receive one single "unwanted" email here? Sure, I get some blog-whoring from people on my friends list like everyone else; but that stuff doesn't go through my regular email. How much unwanted email are people really getting here?
Like ships passing in the night.

It was actually your attempt to undefine the community which was the most significant part of your post and most troubling to me, and which you elide in your response.

But thank you for at least responding.

WOOF
Thank you for this informative post, it cleared up a lot of what wasn't clear.
Like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood. But with keyboards and hopefully few cardigans.

Seriously, thanks for the information. Useful.
Thanks, Kerry.

All of this hoohaw reminded me of a post my adult daughter recently posted on her blog:

"i brought up how when i was younger my mom kept telling me 2 things i actively resisted.
1. if my brother was f***ing with me, and i ignored him...he would leave me alone.
2. life is not fair."

Seems like she's not the only one who actively resists these concepts. Personal responsibility gives one great freedom. I have enjoyed the "open" part of Open Salon for a long time (relatively speaking) and plan to continue enjoying on my terms.

Keep up the good work and remember to take deep cleansing breaths.
Thanks, Kerry.

It's a tough job but somebody has to do it! Appreciate your time here and listening to the hungry feed.
Well I believe it to be a community.. so I don't reckon I will think of it any other way. It's the best of it's kind I have found and I'm staying. The only thing that I can think that would make it better would be if we could edit comments. Then we could change the trolls insults into praise instead, (wouldn't that just drive them nuts!?)

Rock on..
Kerry, I appreciate the interaction you have with the commenters and posters. I appreciated the EPs that have come my way, so thanks to the editors.

I find this a fascinating place. While there are always opportunities for improvement, I enjoy the interaction, the drama, the pathos, and sincerity that happens here on a regular basis.

I've posted here for such a short time, I don't feel I've had enough exposure or experience to provide any substantive feedback.

It takes a lot of effort to hold all this together and just wanted to acknoledge that and say thanks.
Thanks for your hard work and for this communication -- I think the timing couldn't have been more appropriate. I must say my short stay here has been very stimulating, inspiring and otherwise rewarding.
Thanks, Kerry, very much appreciate your communication.
As I have said often enough, I really love Open Salon and the breakthrough it has afforded me as far as writer's block goes. I am somewhere near 50 posts now...
You have addressed the "Open" and I address the "Salon" part. As a human geographer, I find landscapse and culture in odd places and feel that , indeed, OS would make a grand doctoral dissertation. I see it rather as an old fashioned "salon" which, according to my Webster's is:
"a regular gathering of distinguishd guests such as might meet in a drawing room; especially a meeting of literary or artistic people who meet in a celebrity's home."
I think it is a perfect definition of Open Salon as I find it but realize it is my perception.
I applaud your efforts to make OS more well known and will be doing my part to forward that effort (as grad school allows me to).
I am all into ignoring and deleting, for sure.
hi kerry,
great post. i have had a poster make a racist remark. ignored him. i had another make a hateful remark. deleted him.

i do not go to my email here unless it is a personal email that i get a notification on in my personal email, non-OS account. i get many blogwhoring posts. don't ever see them until i am checking a personal message. sorry friends.(: not meaning to ignore.

if someone has made a negative or racist comment to me, i would delete any personal email they have sent. would not read it.

and i do think that ignoring is the way to go. i used to belong to a new york times forum on colombia. it was a great forum and participants were colombian in colombia, colombians who had to flee the war, professors, etc. we had one sicko on their claiming to be a member of the paramilitary forces.

he threatened to kill me and other participants. said he knew where i lived, etc. we did mention it over and over to the nytimes moderator. never heard a word. so we took matters in our own hands and just ignored him. within in a few months he was gone.

anyway, thanks for this open salon. thanks for the editor's picks.:) thanks for the cover. and i am having a blast here.:)
mary
YEES! Kerry... I really appreciate your putting this out on the table for discussion.

At some point, just out of pure curiosity, I *would* be interested in just what would constitute "pretty damn bad"... not that I have seen it here. But I guess I want to know how to recognize it if I do. (I mean, is it like porn where you know it when you see it?)

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go send you a vaguely threatening and scary PM. (just kidding, of course!)

Cheers.
Kerry, I appreciate you clarifying this issue, and you have made some good points. I think people here have a wide range of expectations, particularly revolving around the idea of community. I believe this issue is further complicated, however, by experiences users may have had with real life stalking/harrassment. I realize that is a separate issue, but the emotional dynamics are the same for many people. I still would appreciate a blocking feature for PMs. I may never have a need for it - I haven't so far, but I firmly believe it would create a measure of user control. I hope you will continue to consider that as an option.
Thanks for the clarification, Kerry, especially on your prioritizing the content over the networking. I have a question that I think relates to both things: After considerable thought, the single biggest drawback to OS in my mind is my inability to track my comments for more than the last five. Although at first this sounds like a "social site" issue, I'm wondering if discussion-provoking posts aren't really just a different kind of valuable content that should be encouraged. Some of these threads are excellent in their own right, and if I'm spending much time here, they are lost within a single evening's time. Regardless of how often I resolve to bookmark these places I've visited, I just don't b/c I think I'll be right back or I comment on one too many places before coming back. Losing those threads of conversations do a few things: (1.)Make me feel insane, scattered, forgetful, old, and schizophrenic, (2.)Shortens the life of an excellent post whose trail of discussion becomes its own draw, and (3.)In general makes OS content more short-term than long-lasting, and perhaps encourages one kind of post--the short burst--over the long, well-written kind like Michael Copperman's or, Jesus I forget the woman who wrote about her evenings on OS like a pleasurable evening on the town at a smokey bar, but that kind that many of us think we'll go back to but we don't b/c we forget.

OK, that's all.
Kerry,
Ignoring worked. Got a short very polite PM from a writer who nobody has named in the maelstrom regarding blocking and stalking etc.
Writer claimed to be The Stalker and asked for an opportunity to explain the exagerrations and misinformation. I didn't want to get in it or pass judgment or hear defenses on something I had not been witness or party to in the first place. That writer has not tried to re-contact which I assume they are doing because they understood I wasn't going to engage. So ignoring had a positive result and I thank that writer for letting it be.
Maybe a little more of that at times could enhance the quality of topics and writing seen here. I hope so.
Thanks Kerry. I'm good with this. The writing is the thing.
Kerry: I've noticed that when I goggle the OS, one particular member is cited in the "directory" (I'm sure there is another name.) Forgive me if this is a repetition, but was that by accident--coup--or in some way intentional?
Thank you Kerry. This place is a gift.
I appreciate the thorough explanation. Open is sometimes tough, but it should remain just that...open.
Thanks for all the thanks -- we love working on this, it's our pleasure.

julie: wise words

Ric: Legal implications aside, that really would be fun

Mary: Fascinating story, thanks a lot of sharing it. I do hope if members get threatening comments/messages here, they'll let us know asap.

dbd: I hear you; we'll keep it under consideration.

Lainey: Comment tracking is on our list. It's not going to happen in the next month, but we're hopeful we'll role something out this spring.

alsoka: That's good to hear -- thanks for letting us know.

Ben: Re: Google, I'm going to paste in a response I sent to another person who asked the same question:

How the Google spiders work is the multi-billion-dollar question no one working in Internet publishing knows the answer to. We're not doing anything to create that list. I've noticed this before; other bloggers have shown up there, too. One factor that does, allegedly, improve one's Google page rank is the number of external links to your blog; in essence, if you get a lot of links from outside of Open Salon, your page rank improves. This might affect how Google pulls that information. But we're not creating anything special (meta data, for example) to generate that list.
thanks, kerry.
now, can i please hear the protocol on railroading editors into looking at painted poodle posts? a freakin' cover if ever i saw one.
:-)
On the way to my blog, I happened to make some friends.
On the way to my blog, I happened to read some very insightful, funny, sad, smart, dumb writing.
On the way back from my blog, I happened upon some very smart, funny, sad, insightful comments.
Upon arriving at this comment, I say thank you for these opportunities!
The rabble in the streets with pitchforks screaming for blood and censorship the last few days make me nervous. Isn't there something good on the Discovery Channel? And the editorial philosophy for EP and covers, Kerry, continues to be about something other than quality work. I've been posting elsewhere with a more receptive audience, and now just read OS and comment. Also, I like the link to the Well, but you guys aalready ruined it, so why not just kill it off? It had its day.
Hi, Kerry. Ric Tresa says that he likes OS because of the community that evolves here. I like that aspect of OS very much also. What I see in my particular instance is a smaller community developing within the larger orbit of OS. In my case there about 60 other bloggers who currently make up that community within OS, however OS is defined.

And I actually spend 90% of my non-writing time reading and commenting on those folks posts. Through their writing I get to know them better, and through my writing that is reciprocated. And within that group are some writers that I would put up against any others any time.

I also very much like to blog things which are specifically designed to encourage comment and my replies to those comments. Those posts become more discussion generating instruments than having me try to write wonderful and perfect answers to some problems. Sometimes I have something important that people should talk about that I have no answers to.

I am not arguing that writing is second to community. I write pretty well and have been recognized all my life as a good writer and have been paid well for most of my professional career in part because I do write well. And, now that I am retired, I still try to write the best I can within the constraints of blogging which means keep it short and to the point.

So, yes, writing here and having readers of what I write is very important to me. But the social intercourse that develops over time here because of the writing has become equally important. If OS Administration does nothing further to enhance that aspect of OS I can live with it, maybe grumble a little, and still live with it.

What I would hope is that OS does nothing to undermine that aspect, derivative as it is and perhaps accidental as it is, of the OS experience. Nothing in your post indicates that is intended so I am simply glad for that.

Thanks,

Monte
Kerry, first, thanks for the additional information. There is a lot that goes on in Open Salon, and I have always wondered what the overall purpose was.

You write: "We want members to have the best experience on Open that they possibly can, but it's a site that's skewed toward creators wanting to create (or readers wanting to comment or rate) and less toward social networking."

One thing I would note is that there is nothing very creative about personal attacks on other OS members. A post with the title of "Fred Smith is a Dumb Reproductive Organ" is unlikely to be anthologized in Great Writing of the 21st Century.

In addition, it is also going to be difficult for Fred and his friends simply to ignore something like that. And being attracted by a sensational title, if some people actually read the piece and it becomes one of the Most Read, prominently featured on the cover of OS, it will be doubly difficult for Fred and his friends to ignore that.

Ironically, if Fred reads the piece for himself simply to see what is said about himself, he inadvertently contributes to the popularity of the very post in which he is denounced. It is rather like not only being crucified, but inadvertently helping to provide the wooden beams and nails.

While I am not a fan of censorship per se, there is the concept of something being appropriate or inappropriate to the mission of OS. Presently there is no policy against posts that are nothing more than personal attacks on other members. There is no mechanism to "unread" a post, no longer any "thumbs down" by which one might express disapproval.

In that way a few anonymous miscreants and misanthropes have in effect a "license to kill." And what of the person thus attacked? What is his or her recourse? Nothing, so we're told. And even the act of reading or commenting on the post adds to it's popularity and visibility.

And what of the person's friends? They also are supposed to "ignore" the attack, supposed to stand around silently while the public crucifixion of their friend proceeds.

The potential effect is a kind of self-censorship, in which individuals may decide not to address certain topics or express certain opinions for fear of being personally targeted. Few people are gifted with such iron dispositions that they can simply shrug off and ignore such attacks, either against themselves or their friends.

The demonstrated effect is the propagation of endless debates, bad feelings, bad language, people choosing sides, a fragmentation of the community, and an overall degradation of the OS experience.

I suggest to you that to ignore a post in which a member is openly attacked, often with vile language, is neither adequate nor appropriate. The people who write such posts do not simply go away if they are ignored, and the sensational nature of those posts virtually guarantees that they won't be ignored. Either way they simply wait for the next opportunity. And since there is no negative consequence to them for such posts, why shouldn't they?
Only two things I'd like to request as far as moderation: the ability to block specific users from private messaging you, and IP address blocks for people who are already banned (everyone knows who I mean) to keep them from signing up under new handles.
Kerry,you said:

"One factor that does, allegedly, improve one's Google page rank is the number of external links to your blog; in essence, if you get a lot of links from outside of Open Salon, your page rank improves."

Having plowed those fields a little with someone who knows a lot more about SEO than I do, that is my understanding as well. But it isn't just links; it's the quality (ranking) of the sites you're linked to which boosts your ranking as well. From what I understand, owners of some highly ranked sites charge for that association.

Ranking is a product of overall traffic, unique visitors, years in service and a lot of far more esoteric considerations Google likes to keep to themselves.
Thanks for this patch of very fertile soil. Writing in a vacuum is damn near impossible, at least for me, and OS has been a creative godsend.
I think my own expectations about OS were somewhat out of whack to begin with. Now that I understand the deal -- and your post has helped me with that -- I'm cool with it. I even promise to be nice to the other kids, as long as they are nice to me.
Kerry,

Thanks for listening to complaints and commenting.

I've only had one 'troll' and I just hit delete after I read his first comment. Is there a better way?
Censorship is never appropriate. Period.
Kerry,

Thanks for listening to complaints and commenting.

I've only had one 'troll' and I just hit delete after I read his first comment. Is there a better way?
Kerry, with all due regards and respects, I am wondering why you didn't respond (after two PM's) to my blog about the TOS...?

I assure you I am not the only one here who would like to hear a contribution about this from the editors.

thanks gratefully.

b
I hate to rain on the suck-up/love fest but I agree with C.C.C.

This definition is so vague I doubt even the person who wrote it can decipher it.

The First Amendment is a WONDERFUL thing. It's what separates us from China and other countries that keep their people down and unable to speak. But if they were able and thankful to be able to speak, I doubt they would spew the bullshit that people spew around her unabated.

All due respect, monstrous job running this place. Women being terrorized, and then mocked by other women, deplorable. The perpetrators being able to immediately create new accounts and start P.M.'ing me and others, sickening.

You can have "open" with private options that people can chooseor not choose to use for safety purposes. To not offer safety valves for people is reckless. With the growing numbers now you see that. You told me you weren't equipped to handle all of the complaints in a timely manner. I had someone disparage myself, my family, my late grandfather and many of my friends, forwarded, flagged, did all the criteria asked for in the "by-laws" and yet the person still dwells.

I'm not buying what you're selling. You can delete me, I don't care.
If I wanted to come back (which I wouldn't if you deleted ME), I'm sure I could figure it out. They did.

I've put a lot of heart and soul and friendship into this place and this past week I've heard things said to people that I never have heard before. The people that it was said to were then demonized and told they should have "ignored" it. That's just wrong. It's like a woman who gets raped, goes on trial and becomes the victim. It's the worst, most vile thing in this country's justice system. I'm not equating vile comments and threats to rape, but it is a comparison for comparison's sake.

I will police my own blogs with my First Amendment, GOD given right and dare anyone to say a word.

Respectfully
Solid. Clear. Well said. Thanks Kerry! Roger
When does not getting widely read turn into getting ignored and shooed? How do you know the difference?
Could we have an auto spell check? We seem to have it on comments, but have I missed an icon when posting?

Most posts I compose elsewhere, then a little cut and paste, some frustration when line spaces don't agree, and proof, proof, proof.

But the little quickies, real news, it won't wait, inspiration, and the stupidity of composing on the site. And then, "Is it speek, speech, speak? Damned if I know sometimes.

Dean
Kerry - My major concern is the apparent lack of a mechanism through which members can report threats of a physical nature that have been made through the OS system. I know of at least one woman that received a threat through their OS email that not only threatened them physically, but also revealed that the sender knew their locale and perhaps their residence.

Would it be possible to add a "report abuse" link that would take the user to a page that would first define reportable abuse, and then allow them to report from that page? It would make sense to also include the advice to contact legal authorities immediately if there is any possibility of physical danger. This may sound like a no-brainer for the victim - but when people feel threatened and emotionally upset, they are often not thinking clearly.
Add me to the list of people who have not been threatened and wonder how rampant it is. Is everybody here talking about a single incident or what? I'd like a little perspective. I have not seen anything that constitutes a serious threat or qualifies for censorship. There is certainly the usual hierarchy of accepted and bullied and marginalized and worshiped people going on, but I haven't seen anything like threats. If it's going on in PMs and is seriously a threat, shouldn't the police be involved?
Monte: Thanks, and no, we're no trying to undermine the dialogue going on here at all. I'm just clarifying what the site was built for.

Mishima: I think most people who have spent a lot of time here have seen ample evidence that we delete content that we think goes overboard. I think our standards of what should be deleted are just different. And we're definitely not going to get involved in breaking up skirmishes between members.

Tom: Sounds right.

Dynomyte: Why not just ask your question here? Share with the group!

Greg: Actually, what I believe I told you was: "If we wanted to try and limit any obnoxious behavior, we would need to employ a staff of hundreds." And it's true. There is a big difference between, for example, a physical threat and a mean crack. And, again: This isn't a community site. If you want a moderated experience, there are some great ones out there.

Trudi: "When does not getting widely read turn into getting ignored and shooed?" Now THAT'S a question for the ages!
Thanks, Kerry. I joined because I felt like the quality of writing was excellent, and it was something I would like to be associated with. The whole "flame war" thing does not seem appropriate, as well as stalking being inappropriate. I agree that the less attention they get, the better.
hi kerry,
one last thing, the guy on the nytimes forum who was threatening me and other participants was so obviously disturbed. he was writing from louisiana. so his death threats did not concern me much. but if i had felt it was serious, i would most definitely filed a report with the police.

he was not a member of the paramilitary forces. i lived in colombia, and if he was he would not advertise, he would have just read my remarks and tried to track me down.

anyway, my point is that there has been some nasty shit going on here now and in the past. i think ignoring it and deleting are good ways to deal with it.

if someone claims they know where someone lives, well then, this is a matter for the police i would think. and i am sure you and the other editors would report it.

again thanks for open salon. love it.
mary
I'd like to see on the opening banner a reiteration that OS is for artists: writers, cartoonists, videographers, photographers, etc., I think it gets forgotten and every now and then you see a complaint that it should be only for quality writers.
More great Qs. . . which I'll answer in the morning. Closing this thread for now -- but will re-open during business hours tomorrow.
Yes! OS should be about strong writing (and cartooning and photography and -- what you said). If a community forms, it should be all about that too, a creative community, encouraging us all to do our best work. And I'm grateful the editors are there. So thanks, Kerry.
And we're back!

Artsfish: It's a good point. We'll mull.

C & Mary: Again, thanks.

marcelleqb and Faith: Good points.

Again, the experience for members here really do parallel the experience of writers, photographers, cartoonists, etc. at Salon and elsewhere -- interaction with your audience in ways both gratifying and, occasionally, not. At least you can delete comments here (something many a writer I know would relish).
Hello Kerry,
I usually stay out of discussions like this but I am drawn in this time by my awareness of the recent crap flinging between Greg Randolph and his tormentors. Is the threshold for taking action against a blogger determined by you and other editors or is it set by something like the FCC? I don't fault you for not wanting to get into the contorted specific legalese but I'm interested in what it says. If you have any influence over what the rules are and how they are applied I recommend that they be made more dynamic, with a tolerance that allows them to be flexible. Obviously not all situations are the same. If someone is dropping racist propaganda or trying to sell crap it's not difficult to see that their content can legitimately be removed. If someone is deliberately tormenting another with personal insults and pushing buttons just to get a rise it may not be so clear but the result of the lack of clarity is the suffering of well intentioned people. Greg, a very decent and passionate guy,was pushed to the point where he ended up sounding like the nut in this recent exchange. Others, late to the fight, were quick to pile on him. I think that situation could have been, if not avoided, handled in a way that prevented it from escalating as it did.
If this site were really "open" it wouldn't have editors and it would probably suck. I believe that your editorial powers can be applied with greater precision and to better affect. Thanks for all the work that you do.
M
let me just say that for content to be deleted, it needs to be pretty damn bad. When the threshold is crossed, we move. When it's not, we don't -- and urge you to ignore it.

Kerry, I've been watching this develop when I have had time. Since I don't have BOTH sides of the story (and you apparently do) I feel compelled to ask the question:
Is harassing another member by sending repeated PMs containing information that might make you think that person knows where you live, or by repeatedly posting comments that you know where they are from and can find them, considered crossing this ambiguous threshold?

See, I'm not concerned about trolls. I'm concerned about the members that want to act in a dangerous fashion or appearance. Someone stating they know where I live and can find me is a direct threat. I don't think that kind of stuff should be tolerated, whether this is indeed "Open" Salon or not. "Open" should not mean open warfare.

Thanks very much, and I do appreciate the logistics involved in such a large and varied community such as this one.
I came here for the writing and made new friends a bonus. Anybody expecting more or getting less needs to look at their expectations. End of story.
Great post, Kerry.
I guess I haven't seen any problems like those reported in the comments--harassing emails, posts, etc. So, that's why I have stayed on here.
I agree the results of over-moderation are worse than the annoyances of dealing with the annoying.

My biggest problem with OS is that it's very hard to get a post noticed in the first place unless you've been here a long time and have built up enough people who have "friended" you to get a few comments and ratings. During busy periods the odds are only a few people will even see a new post. I like getting comments and having a conversation so that's disappointing. I encourage everyone to read at least a few new posts by people they don't know every time they log on, and not just the ed's picks or those in the rated and read columns.
"Even here, among us, we have enemies..."
--Robespierre
"I hold here, in my hand, a list of ungracious and obstreperous posts..."

Yeow, let's keep the Open Open.
Hatchet: "I think that situation could have been, if not avoided, handled in a way that prevented it from escalating as it did." I'm not going to go into detail on any specific incident here. But, again, we're not equipped to break up every fight, or crack down on people who are simply trying to "get a rise," as you put it, out of others. We can and will delete content that's a violation of our Terms, which have guidelines that are pretty broadly defined. But, again, this isn't a community site where there will be constant policing of member interactions.

Redstocking: Good advice.

Bill: This post hasn't been sparked by any specific "story." You ask: "Is harassing another member by sending repeated PMs containing information that might make you think that person knows where you live, or by repeatedly posting comments that you know where they are from and can find them, considered crossing this ambiguous threshold?" If someone is being threatened they should certainly let us know, and we'll look into it immediately.
Thank you, Kerry. I'm not looking for a mediator in the typical internet squabbles that arise - I just wanted to be clear about situations involving harassment and stalking.
One thing I've learned about participating in internet forums - you need a thick skin and to be able to dish it out as well as take it.
Thank you. And thank you, especially for the reminder that this community is for writers, not other kinds of narcissists, who will eventually wander off when no one else pays attention. In the end, talking to one's self is simply not enough.
Kerry, this subject hasn't been touched on much here in this discussion, but I don't totally buy this statement that you wrote:

"when we're making an Editor's Pick or moving content to the Open or Salon covers, we're just looking for posts we find smart and interesting. That's it."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I first signed up for OS last summer, I remember reading something about some of the writers being "brought in" to the OS fold. (like say, Russell Simmons and his one post) I can't find anything on that subject now, but I still see evidence of it.

There are writers here who have/had identical somewhat popular blogs elsewhere and at least appear to have been specially invited.
Jocelyn Testes Harder's "Filthy Richmond" stands out as the most obvious example--along with perhaps Amy Tuetor's "Dr. Amy" blog.

These two get editor's picks with almost every post. Is this because they were asked to join or are getting paid for their work?

And if the answer to the above questions are no and no, I strongly contend the notion that anything Jocelyn writes ever remotely meets your stated criteria of "smart and interesting."
There are always going to be certain names that net OS more traffic than others. It's the way of the internet.

I have many sites and adjust the fronts and indexes according to which searches I see coming up time and time again in my stats.
Winona: I think you're right.

Edgar: No and no, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Vive le difference!

And with that, 24 hours after posting this, I'm going to close these comments. If anyone has pressing issues they don't feel were answered here, shoot me a message.
Comments are now closed.