Be it Observed

Wit, wisdom, and occasional inanity.
Editor’s Pick
DECEMBER 6, 2009 10:40PM

Verbotene Liebe: Women, Sex and Gay Men

Rate: 8 Flag
Women and Sex: Are Women Turned on By Gay Men? 

 

Men, we are told, are turned on by lesbians. 

Lesbians aren’t sure how they feel about this.

I don’t blame them. 

This is why I hang my head in shame when I admit a dirty little secret:

Straight women are turned on by gay men.

We lurk on Amazon, buying gay male fiction under our husbands’ names.  We prowl YouTube using the search terms: “gay men” or “gay men movie” or “gay kiss.”  Once we find a good clip, we watch it, again and again and again.

This is how a lot of women have gotten addicted to German Soap Opera, Verbotene Liebe.

Yes, the hottest thing on YouTube is no longer the dancing squirrels.  It’s a German Soap Opera featuring the sexy Jo Weil and Thore Scholermann as Olli and Christian.  Two men in love.  Who kiss.   Sometimes without shirts.  They cuddle too. 

Yes, that is what’s hot on You Tube:  yes, Yes, YES!

One clip of this obscure German soap has gotten over a million views, in its various  versions. 

It’s not only that Olli and Christian kiss.  They do other things that women like to do.  They hold hands.  They talk.  They fight. They make up after fights. They even have sexual hang-ups. They act, well, human.  Not stereotypically gay, not stereotypically anything: but like a human couple leading a normal life that works because they love each other.

Oh yes. Yes. Oh.  Give it to me baby.

Which is exactly what turns women on. That and the sight Thore without his shirt on.  (How do you say “Give it to me Thore” in German?) 

Certified social worker Ed says, “It’s good for their husbands.”  He should know. He’s my husband.  Though I personally am not addicted to watching Olli and Christian kiss passionately before Christian’s uber-handsome brother Gregor catches them in bed, my husband might say something like, “We’re having a lot more sex lately.”  A lot more

Perhaps that is why straight men actually watch the soap along with their significant others.  They know its foreplay.

How do gay men feel about this?  I wouldn’t blame them for feeling creeped out.  However, I offer this explanation: 

Most women have been raised to hate their bodies and their sexuality.  A lot of women associate sex with humiliation and powerlessness.  One in three of us has been raped or abused.  Also, we’ve been taught that we can never be thin enough or pretty enough to be desirable. In short, we’ve been taught to hate our sexuality.

So watching gay men gives us a way to envision sex without having to watch ourselves.  We feel aroused because we are not in the fantasy.  Ironically, it feels cleaner. 

Except that women feel dirty admitting it.

Except that the life women objectify and fantasize about is, for gay men, often made torturously difficult by society.  And many of us don’t do a blessed thing about it.

So we are left in an interesting quandary of liberation:

Women can finally admit to their secret fantasies, their Verbotene Liebes.  But, in the end, does this give us the power denied us by straight men, or does it merely make us more like the straight men that have dominated us?

I’m not sure I like the answers.  But I wouldn’t mind hearing from other women and men on the subject.  The clips from Verbotene Liebe may stir up feelings . . .  the German soap stirred up my feelings.  (And I’m Jewish – which leads to a whole other set of questions best left for another blog.) 

 

CORRECTION:  Asinistra makes a good point when she says that I assume too much in my "overarching" use of "we."  But it is rather scary to admit to such a thing in the I form, nu? 

Feel free to read all "we's" as "I's," but don't assume it's me, Okay. (A joke.) 

As many readers have rightly pointed out, this article is about me -- and about what I suspect may be true for women.

 I suppose we need to go back to more fundemental questions:

  • Are some women turned on by gay sex? 
  • Or do some women just crave close relationships?  (For me, it is both.)

AND:

  • Is this okay, or is this a creepy objectification of gay men?

(BTW: I have no affiliation with this soap, other than a slight obsession. However, I would like to thank http://www.youtube.com/user/ichglotzutube who has done much to make this soap something of a worldwide phenomena.  Thanks, too, to http://www.youtube.com/user/deepdarkmidnight for documenting each kiss.) 

Author tags:

women, gay, sex, verbotene liebe

Your tags:

TIP:

Enter the amount, and click "Tip" to submit!
Recipient's email address:
Personal message (optional):

Your email address:

Comments

Type your comment below:
Wow -- no comments?! I thought everyone would have weighed in by now...
I think sexual fantasy is very personal and changes over time like other interests or desires. I cannot think of a time when watching gay men have turned me on, however. I agree with you that too many women have not been lucky enough to have a satisfying, balanced sexual relationship with a man. Watching two men choose each other over a woman feels more like another let down to me than anything else...I am happy for you that you have found a fantasy that works for you and your partner. Enjoy!
I think you hit the nail on the head with this sentence "A lot of women associate sex with humiliation and powerlessness. One in three of us has been raped or abused."
WWFT? (what would Freud Think?)
I found this an interesting, insightful post especially since my wife can't get seem to get enough of the Color Splash guy (though I wonder if she'd be as enthalled with him if he was making out with another guy rather than helping folks with make-overs for their homes.) But two things: First, I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that "men are turned on by lesbians." Men are turned on by lesbian sex, but the two women doing it don't have to be lesbians to turn us on....it may be better if they're not. In fact, I dare say that men are quite indifferent to lesbianism to the degree that it mirrors the ho-hum domesticity or banality of daily life that characterizes most non-"art" lesbianism. Second, the post suffers from an overreaching use of the seco0nd person pronoun. I'd find this a lot more credible and less off-putting if you were just speaking for yourself here and not posing as the voice of all womankind. Leave the grand, sweeping cultural proclamations to that preening megalomaniac Paglia.
Interesting to read about Verbotene Liebe at Salon ... if you ever meet Thore Schölermann in the flesh tell him: Gib's mir, Thore! That's the translation you asked for.
Wow...certainly an interesting theory, but I think what you're really trying to say here is that women are turned on by intimacy and real relationships. And I don't think TV's Olli's and Christian's own that category--in fact, if anything, they are by far the minority stakeholders. Seeing positive gay (male) relationships on the small screen certainly warms my heart but definitely doesn't warm my you-know-where. In the world of same-sex relationship TV, I would imagine shows like The L Word have done much more for hetero couples in the bedroom than, say, a Queer as Folk. And not just because boyfriends are going to be a lot less resistant to tuning in every week. In terms of fantasy, most women need characters they can relate to--for proof look to Harlequin Romance Novelists and the Jackie Collins' of the world. That's why women read their porn instead of watch it; most women don't relate to Jenna Jameson. That said, good for you! And double good for getting your significant other into it as well. Most guys would not be so open-minded even if it meant more and better sex--and I doubt hardly any of them would let their wives write about it.
Thanks for the feedback: I may want to go back and change the text. Asinistra is right on the money when she states that I am assuming far too much here.

The question I should first ask is: Are women turned on by gay sex? And: Is this a good thing or is this objectifying gay men?
@ Tom Walls:

My husband likes it best when I'm writing the porn. My husband appreciates the strange change in my breathing pattern that occurs at such times.

(Side Note; I never wrote porn before watching a German soap opera. What does this mean?)
Men acting like women turns on women's fantasys of not having to deal with the excessive compartmentalizing, macho, self abnegating necessities of being a man. Oh, did I just marginalize women's sacrifices? So sorry.
Look, dealing with overly touchy feely, lets explore your feelings attitude women have towards men undermines our capacity to ignore the excess details and concentrate on what necessary to the very moment.
I feel this need to turn men into girlfriends, is what contributes to gender confusion. These kind of feelings just make me feel weak. My feelings all too frequently turn to a level of aggression, tantamount to joyous fantasy of hacking whomever offends me to pieces with a sword. Only really victimized women can feel that.
And besides, Im friggen terrified of lesbians; the one's I have known have always instantly targeted me as the carrier of gender role oppression...since 1979 I have been targeted...until I became agoraphobic.
Cause frankly, all that aggression towards me, for no good reason other than feminists declared a new age of freedom from oppression, leads me to want to just kick some ass.
That is how I feel toward men who now dare, to talk to me like I am their girlfriend.
But, being a gentleman (by necessity, otherwise I'd be in prison), Women? Different story; their far more fragile, they cant throw a punch or kick, despite hollywood's recent fad in depicting them as 'kick ass'. Sure. Whatever fad entertains them. Never saw women pairing off behind a bar, busting out a tooth or cracking someone's skull, then going back in and buying the loser a beer. Nor ever expressing the feeling to just get in a fight, despite whether I get my ass kicked or not. Basically, its only been women who have declared, "there is no such thing as gender!"
Though, I am sure women make great snipers.
I am jealous of gay men's relationships because they are so interested in each other and concerened with each others welfare. The middle-class Lesbeina Affairs that I have observed are interesting. But the lower-class affairs I have seen seem to violent. Somehow these women seem to want to immitate men too much and see violence and cursing as part of the "act" of love.

However, I live in a city that once held the highest population of gay people percapita outside of San Francisco. But we have nothing like this soap opera. Maybe it would be a lesson of love for US so called straights.
Speaking as a gay man, I don't feel objectified at all, and I'm glad to see a straight person having a reaction to male-male intimacy besides "Ewww!". (A "meh" and a shoulder shrug is also appreciated.) You are using materials (erotica, etc.) for their intended purpose- unless you're propositioning handsome gay men on the street, you're fine.

As far as what it says- I would caution against drawing sweeping assertions. It's definitely true that SOME women enjoy watching gay sex, regardless of the relationship between the two. It's also true that some women are more interested in the relationship aspect, and some women can become aroused by both stimuli.
But sexuality is weird, and deeply personal. Further, because male-male intimacy is so rarely displayed, and subject to such intense disapproval, some element of your arousal may be due to a feeling of danger or transgression. For that matter, the sheer novelty may also have a part in your reaction to it.

Finally, a little story- When I was in college, my best friend convinced/coerced me into making out with her boyfriend in front of her (and a bunch of other wine-drinking female friends) at a house party. After the initial nervousness, they were an appreciative audience, and without any expectation that he and I were in a relationship. Which is my way of saying that you sound normal and healthy to me, in this at least.

(As for the best friend- LONG story.)






With regard to what it says about you- you appear to enjoy looking at attractive members of the opposite sex .
Shall I assume I am rare and lucky, at 48, in not having been raised to hate my body or sexuality? Out of my 20 odd best women friends, none of them do either...and they are of all ages and from all over - how did we escape the cage of hating ourselves as described here? Speak for yourself! My friends & I are still having fun discovering and celebrating our sexuality and enjoying the gift of our bodies - even those with some abuse in the long ago background. Listen, the messages, subtle to overt, are certainly out there, but one has a choice to listen to them over the years, or choose other input, and create your own messages and feelings about your body. Let us not assume the "powerless female victim of media" to be more overwhelmingly present than she actually is. Assume there are also many healthy, sexual, powerful feeling women out there, and voila - you will find them. As for "we" straight women being obsessed with gay men - hardly. 2 questions - do you know many gay men? And who is this "we"?? After having many many many gay men as friends and co-workers for decades of my life, having observed their relationships, struggles, triumphs and heartbreaks, alongside my own, I can only see them as friends and humans, (extremely goofy and wackball funny a great deal of the time, and not even close to getting me hot!) . If this is working for you, great, but please distinquish yourself from speaking for all straight women. Be Brave! Woman up, and buy your own dang porn under your own name. If you seek to diffuse your fascination however, go get a few more real life gay friends, and they will no longer seem nearly so exotic and mysterious. Girl, sometimes they can turn you RIGHT OFF! (and you might run to your straight husband with relief!).
I began watching Queer as Folk because it was "different" but I kept watching it because it wasn't about gay people in a prurient way, it wasn't about the gay, it was about the people, the characters and their relationships. A good story is a good story whether the main protagonists are Jack and Jill or Jack and Jack, or Jill and Jill.
I am a straight male – let the hating begin.

I have no animosity towards gay men, but the sight of two men kissing is pretty repugnant to me. I can’t help it.

So, if your husband likes to watch it with you – great, but I wouldn’t expect millions of husbands to run in the TV room with a bowl of popcorn.

Yeah, yeah, I know – “I’m not secure in my masculinity” – please spare me that baloney. Every time a man doesn’t except something about women’s sexuality he is accused of insecurity.

---Whatever.---

I have to say that the more I hear women talk about their deepest secret desires – the less interested I am in hearing it. Especially, when they preface it all with claims of being oppressed and abused. Translation: Men’s lives are easy / Women have it hard - Which of course is self-serving drivel.

The biggest turn-off is the whine that men are pressuring women to look good or be “perfect”. You know, I have never known a woman, who claims this, that has ever expended one iota of energy into being perfect. Don’t blame men- blame the stupid TV shows you watch and the idiotic magazines you read.

You have met the enemy and it is you.

All I seem to meet are whiney, exasperated women who feel entitled to my total acceptance of everything they are, are doing, or have done. They also feel entitled to commitment. I’ve done the commitment thing and I regret it.

Sorry ladies, you’re just not that interesting anymore – T.M.I. As our great age of women empowerment advances, men are finding that there is less in it for them. Haven’t you noticed how so many men are just checking out and just not giving a damn anymore?

You don’t need us anymore. You can take over inventing everything, building everything, managing everything – well, stop talking about it and just get busy.

Frankly, I am beginning to wish I was gay – women just aren’t worth the effort anymore.
Hi Joe. As other people have noted, my writing above abounds in generalizations -- and generalizations are not fair. Straight men do not oppress me, but we live in a society in which different levers work to oppress. Unfortunately, women, by-in-large (but not all if you read the comments) experience some form of discrimination. The data on income would certainly support my contention.

However, that is not to say all straight men oppress.

Yet, as a white woman, I have no problem with saying, "Yes, African Americans are oppressed in this society." Even if I don't actively do the oppressing, I can't drive through the Bronx without clearly seeing that herin lies a third-world country, and the men in this country will die before they are fifty, and most will go to jail, and (worse) they will in this age of "racism and sexism no longer exist because we are above that now" be held at fault for this.

Being able to live with myself means allowing the fact that I can be an a---whole. That I am white, and I don't need black people to like me or approve of me -- I just need to support them in their struggles.

Just as I need to support gay people. And, yes, even straight me. As individuals straight men may receive benefits from society, but benefits with a price, as your anger seems to show.

Remember: I love my husband, and he is straight, and I am well-aware of the special pressures our culture puts on him and his manhood.

We are all set against each other, and we all seet against each other, and often I am the worst offender.

I suppose in this little blog, I'm trying to come to terms with that strange exotic thing we call sexuality: look at it, smirk at it, and allow it to be what it is and what it is not.
Wyked: Your commend is generous and insightful. Oy do I make generalizations here!

Thanks for the interesting story.

Kessy
"However, that is not to say all straight men oppress. "

Oh thank you for that. I'm sure that there is at least one good straight man out there somewhere. When we find him we'll freeze his DNA for research.

And please, extend my appologies to the Black people the next time you're driving through the Bronx.
What is this? Surely this is NOT meant to represent a valid scientific observation? This is an unscientific personal opinion based on nothing but a few individual preferences. Never in a million years would I, a woman, find anything remotely erotic about men making love to each other. I speak only for myself.Why must some women always try to find the female version of all the things that men like to do? Do speak for yourselves by all means, but do not presume to be representing women in general, that would be overrating your opinion beyond all reason.
Hielge,

I'd appreciate it if you would read the corrections to the blog before commenting. Obviously, you are correct in your assertions, if a bit wrong in your assumptions.

Kes
I have known several women who claim to be turned on by images of gay male sex. My impression has been that gay male sex constitutes a sexual fantasy for younger, single women - typically women who've been exposed to such images during their sexual development. I'm not aware that its as common a fantasy among older or married women. Also, homosexuality aside, if you think the actors are hot you're going to find the sex hot regardless, no? I mean, if the scene were performed by Quentin Crisp and Elton John, you might not feel the same way about it.
Well, I appreciate you starting this discussion.

This: "Most women have been raised to hate their bodies and their sexuality. A lot of women associate sex with humiliation and powerlessness. One in three of us has been raped or abused. Also, we’ve been taught that we can never be thin enough or pretty enough to be desirable. In short, we’ve been taught to hate our sexuality." hit the nail on the head whether or not some people are able to accept it. 1 in 3 is a honking lot of women. Actually talking to women, I believe the number is much higher in this country.

There is something safe about gay porn. We can watch handsome, virile (and extremely well endowed) men and appreciate their beauty without feeling the need to measure ourselves up to a teenaged, surgically enhanced female. It doesn't objectify us and we are allowed to simply be non-active participants while enjoying the male form. Straight women usually enjoy penises. Gay porn is about the only media which this can be seen.
I am a straight hetero woman in my 40's who in the last 5 years has discovered gay porn and it does turn me on. I dont seek it out a lot but every once in a while I look for it.

It is not anything intellectual. It is purely an appreciation of beautiful males having sex. I could care less about their relationships or allusions to them. It really is for me about their beauty, their hard bodies and their delight in each other.

As far as to the second question about objectification, well, that is why the product is being put out there! so that consumers can watch it.
I will admit it; I’m one of these women. I watch Verbotene Liebe because I am in love with this couple, and the “liebe” that encompasses them. Thore and Jo are truly exceptional in their roles, and the writing was very good for some time.

These are the main reasons I watch, but they’re definitely not the only ones. I’m also completely turned on by gay men, kissing, cuddling, and yes, even fucking. I don’t know where it came from, or what triggered this fascination in my brain, but it’s there, and I’m glad to have it.

I thought this article was extremely insightful and hope that others will too. Some of the readers’ comments seem a little harsh to me; even phobic. ---So, you’re a girl and don’t enjoy gay stuff? Fine, but why do you almost seem offended that others do? ---So, you’re a man and think gays are disgusting and that women shouldn’t be able to vote, let alone speak their minds? Fine, but what is your problem really? Surely you haven’t decided to forget women all together because of this one little, harmless article.

Everyone’s different, but in a way, we’re all really the same, aren’t we?
Right on the head! I wrote a novel about two straight men in a close relationship. That led to its sequel, wherein they become lovers, only for each other. To research that, I visited gay porn sites. Found out I had this entirely unknown attraction to gay men and gay sex and I've been analyzing the hell out of it ever since (and enjoying it, too, hehe). I, too, a rape victim. I, too, am turned off by the straight man's version of what it means to be human or female or male, for that matter. I feel liberated finding this niche in my life and better late than never. My gay male friend is helping me discover this whole new aspect to my own sexuality that it took gay men to uncover. Good job — and thank you for opening up this dialogue. It's long overdue.
Thanks for the comments RennaisanceLady, Scarpettafan, Bjork, Grace and others.

I don't know if rape always have to be a factor, but I was one of the unlucky ones. Damn. Still hurts.

However, there is something freeing, as was noted, about finding this "niche."

I keep remembering a conversation between Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal in When Harry Met Sally. Harry asks Sally about her sexual fantasies, and all she can say is that a guy comes and rips her clothes off.

In other words, the standard pseudo-rape fantasy. And that -- in various versions -- is my own. Though I have a great sex-life with my husband, I could never fantasize about hetero relationships in any way that did not end in degredation.

But watching men is different. (Monsieur: even watching Elton John and Regis Philbin could be a turn-on. Well, maybe. "Do it to me Regis, oh yes . . ." Okay, might be a bit much.)

I do get off on Verbotene Liebe -- I also think the show's characters remarkably well-written, from the outset. (In that regard, I appreciate comments that we can be attracted to character, healthy relationship, and beauty itself.)

But sex is part of this equation for me. ("Oh Regis, put it--" -- no, it doesn't work, does it? Maybe Patrick Stewart? Pickard/Q would make a good slash, nu? How about Steward/Colbert? Do they have a fandom? Fan-fic would be a whole other blog.)

Part of the reason I'm writing is because I have felt mighty strange talking about my sexual haven. Through this German soap and through the slash world on Amazon, I've found plenty of women like myself, but before then I just felt: wierd.

So to some degree, it feels positive to let this particular cat out of the bag, if only in hopes that others will feel they are not alone, too.

Cats aren't particularly happy in bags.
Boy, everything you just said I could have said, too (except I'm not married). My addiction is to Starsky & Hutch and I've made fan videos galore that are on YouTube and I'm really examining this whole thing from every angle because it's fascinating, exciting, interesting, healing. Though I haven't read slash fiction, I know it's out there, but I never quite got it till I began to unleash the creativity in that line within myself. I thank you again for the kinship. As you know, it means a lot.
The majority of my friends are gay men, which results in my viewing (accidentally and on-purpose) quite a bit of gay porn. The way I see it, why wouldn't I want to watch two guys I think are attractive at the same time? I also feel a bit competitive, so not having to see some other girl on screen works for me.
That straight women like to see gay men get it on every bit as much as straight men love faux lesbian porn has been an open secret (please excuse plug) for quite some time. The difference is the grotesque sentimentality onto which straight women ladel their "vice" like so much chocolate sauce. As a 62 year-old gay man I'd like to say how FED UP I am with this psycho-sexual poaching. It made a hit of of "Brokeback Mountain" ( the "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" of Queer Cinema) and on a far more exalted level inspired the last writings of Marguerite Duras. A deeply closeted lesbian (whose lover included another deeply closeted lesbian named Susan Sontag), she was rescued from acute alcoholism by a gay fan named Yann Andrea who she featured in her later films and wrote about constantly. He was always falling for straight men who didn't want him -- and would retreat to Marguerite's faux-maternal arms for comfort. She claimed this was the Absolute Ideal Expression of Love. That was relatively benign compared to Laura Albert, a charlatan who successfully marketed herself as "J.T. Leroy" -- an HIV+ gay hustler. A great many people who should ahve known better (including Gus Van Sant and my friend Dennis Cooper) were fooled by this hoax until it proved to be unsustainable.

Why do women want ot annex gay male sexuality? I don't know and I don't care.

Enter someone certain to loudly declare me a misogynist.

So be it.

I haven't spent the better part of my 62 years as a Perfect Gay(that's what Practice makes) to see my world taken over my a mob of ravenous vagina-equipped whores!
As a 29 y/o Kinsey 6, I would like to apologize to everyone for David Ehrenstein's infantile tirade. While it is obvious to most sensible people that watching porn is in no way comparable to manipulative relationships or literary hoaxes, not all gay men are sensible people.

Seriously- as long as you aren't crashing circuit parties and clothing-optional men-only campgrounds, keep doing what you're doing. If nothing else, you piss people like David off, which is a worthy goal in its own right.
Just knew we'd be hearing from a KAPO!
Comparing an internet comment to the Holocaust is also not the position of a sensible person.

Give it up, Mary.
"Infantile" ? "Not sensible"?

You're too short for that gesture.
I recall being very surprised when a friend first revealed to me she was turned on by images of gay male sex. But my surprise diminished as I began to hear more and read more about the phenomenon in the intervening years.

What I do find troubling are the virulent reactions incurred by a woman who describes sexual feelings that veer outside of what are apparently very strictly circumscribed lines. It has illumined, for me, why women are so frequently fearful of revealing their true sexual feelings. When men say they find women "mysterious", I believe that reactions like the above are among the reasons female sexuality remains so veiled.
I don't find women mysterious at all.
OK I had to actually register to let you know how ridiculously offensive this article is to lesbians and gays. "Men, we are told, are turned on by lesbians. Lesbians aren’t sure how they feel about this ... Straight women are turned on by gay men ... How do gay men feel about this? I wouldn’t blame them for feeling creeped out. "

Firstly, why does the writer assume that lesbians are fine with straights getting turned on by them, but gay men can deservedly feel creeped out? Does she honestly think that women are so used to being objectified by men that they have no feelings about it? That they aren't repulsed by the fact that they are lusted after by the very same men they feel physical disgust towards?

First of all get it through your heads that lesbians and gays do not exist for the objectification and self-pleasuring of straight men and women. Gay men have their own issues so I'll just speak for the lesbians since no one else has (including the writer).

As I lesbian I feel horrified, offended and disgusted by the way straight men seem to be fascinated by us. I find the "lesbian" porn which is created for their benefit not only ridiculous (the gross overacting, the welcome entry of the male) but highly offensive. And yes, I do not like it when men look at me with that look in their eyes. It makes me want to vomit. Straights are not needed or wanted in any way in our sexual lives, but they seem to find that very difficult to believe.
Hey MM- speak for yourself- or not. Just don't presume to speak for "gays and lesbians" in the aggregate, mkay?

And, to reiterate, I think causing offense to folks like yourself is an argument FOR watching/reading/writing anything legal that trips one's trigger.
As a lifelong straight guy, I feel strangely offended that you apply guilt to all straight guys because you have issues related to your own psyche. You need to do some serious inner work before you start to lay blame to a huge sector of the population because you had an asshole for a boyfriend. I have been married to the same woman for a quarter century. I have never been abusive. As I get older I would say that I work very hard every day to make sure she feels loved, needed, heard, and beautiful. I wouldn't dream of acting in the manner you ascribe to "straight guys". And yet you have me convicted.

I am sorry you have bad experiences in your past. If you want peace in your mind it must come from within. Everything out here is screwed up.
Separatism, contempt and revulsion toward other human beings is ugly no matter which quarter it's coming from. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but I don't think we should be casting others in the role of monster or grotesque simply because we do not share their feelings.

Sexual feelings are natural feelings. Just because we may not experience reciprocity, it doesn't mean a lustful gaze is heinous or diabolical. It's just a fact of nature. I believe in the diminishment of melodrama when it comes to sexual politics.
Don't let that bitch stifle you, MM. You speak the Truth.
David, thank you for supporting MM, who makes very good points.

However, I don't think she was being attacked by anyone, and I'd prefer you not call people "bitches" here. I don't think any dogs have been posting, nu?

You are right, though, if you say that I am rather short for this gesture. Anne Baxter would loom over me.
I've been called far worse than a bitch in my 62 years.
David -- you are not being called a bitch on my watch.

BTW: though you are certainly deft at twisting the knife in the wound and rubbing in salt, your writing is so sharp, I can't help but admire you. I admire much of what you say, too.

(I mean, I'm a married woman appropriating the sexuality of people who cannot get married in most places -- what's not to be pissed at? I don't claim morality here, and I appreciate the feedback. Besides, I did see Brokeback Mountain on opening night -- you do know what you are talking about.)

So I do like your style . . .

. . . when you are not calling kind, thoughtful people "bitches" -- I mean, come on, this is so beneith you. You are a star, a true star -- that's what you always were and always shall be.
Not a star. Just an "avec le pariticpation speciale de"

Interested to see what you think of "A Single Man" -- which opens this weekend. Nothing for "Brokeback Mountain" fans, but plenty for me -- especially the yummy Matthew Goode.
I have read your piece and the responses with interest. If I may, I would like to offer my observations. I, of course, point out that I am analyzing from a distance, so please consider my comments as in reference to the general rather than personal.

I found it significant that in your article about women watching gay porn, that you also mentioned the abuse of women. It seemed oddly included. You also reinforced this connection in your response to Joe. I believe that it is, in actuality, the motivation for your piece. I believe that I read that you had been the victim of rape at some point (forgive me if I am wrong), but abuse is central to my point.

It is common for women who have suffered sexual violence to have conflicted feelings towards men in general. They may love the men in their lives and yet feel an unresolved anger to that part of men that is violent and sexual. They reconcile this by separating men from their “masculinity”. They regard masculinity as an institution rather than a part of being a man. In doing this they can essentially dehumanize masculinity.
This allows them to fulfill their need to love a man while at the sometime provides a focus for their anger.

This is similar to how solders dehumanize their enemy in their minds before going to war. The “Straight White Man” is regarded as an inhuman institution rather than a group of diverse human beings. This makes it easier to attack.

Your promoting of Male Gay porn to heterosexual women is in a sense an attack on masculinity. If you can convince women to be stimulated by it, you have successfully chipped away at the institution of “maleness”. Joe’s response is exactly the one you were looking for. You gave him the longest and most detailed response and reemphasized the abuse and repression connection. It was obvious.

To a heterosexual woman, gay porn is a vision of masculine men being “feminized” and, in a sense, emasculated. They are being treated as women. To women, Gay men often represent men that have been separated from their masculinity. They are safe and caring – unlike masculine men. This is, of course, a stereotype and blatantly unfair to Gay and straight men. A homosexual lifestyle can be complex and difficult. Many Gay men and women resent their homosexuality being reduced to “the act” by straight men and women.

Keep in mind that in your attack against masculinity, you are exploiting Gays.

To a woman that harbors deep anger towards men, viewing Gay porn is essentially viewing the rape of masculinity. It represents a revenge fantasy against the masculinity of her attacker. If her attacker is raped, he will feel the pain and shame she felt. However, you must rest assured that your attacker, in all probability, knows this pain and humiliation all too well.

I am not asking you to sympathize with your attacker, just understand how he got to where he is. I do not promote the idea that one must work to erase their anger. Anger is there to be felt. I urge people, instead, to examine their actions and look for the anger behind their motives and remove it from there.

Resentment against the opposite sex can have deep negative effects on the people around you. It is natural to harbor some resentment against the opposite sex. The opposite sex has the potential to have an important positive effect at critical points in our lives. Unfortunately, we all let each other down from time to time and hence, the resentment. This resentment can manifest itself in your dealings with your children and husband.

I am concerned for your husband, his immediate acceptance of your enjoyment of Male Gay porn may indicate some issues. Men that are too eager to please women often experience deep inner conflict. I have found that these men are usually left-leaning politically and often declare themselves “feminists.” In most cases, these men were raised in a single mother household by a mother with strong or militant feminist views.

These women harbor this resentment against men and hide behind feminism to express their anger. This disingenuous feminism can have detrimental effects on their sons. These women need to separate their sons from their masculinity in order to love them. They set up a conditional love scenario that requires the boy to suppress his masculinity in order to obtain his mother’s acceptance. Their sons become the first casualties in their war against men.

Often, this is wrapped in progressive causes. The message being: men are violent and sexual and you must suppress this and avoid traditional male behavior for the good of all society. In this way, she absolves herself from emasculating her son – it is for the good of all.

These boys usually grow up feeling that they must capitulate to women in order to gain their acceptance. This can result in long-term depression and in some cases they grow up to be deeply resentful and violent against women.

I’m sure that there is some genuine sexual titillation, on your part, when watching Male Gay porn. But be aware of the fact that sexual anger may be your true motive and in that case you are exploiting the Gay community. You may also, by attacking masculinity, be feeding the cycle of resentment and abuse - A cycle born of resentment and anger against the opposite sex.
Boy, does everything have to be psychoanalyzed and then with a leaning toward the negative? How about this. Some of us are just really sexual. And we find straight porn to be boring because we can't help but think SHE is mostly in it for the money, plays up to the camera (to the men watching her as if to say, don't you wish this were you?), and often seems to fake her pleasure. Not so with gay porn. What we see are two beautiful people completely enjoying themselves sexually — no faking it, no pretending; they'd probably be there even if they didn't get paid. And those of us watching are sexual animals to begin with and we get to freely enjoy the 100% pure pleasure we're watching. The nature of porn is to be WATCHED. Or what's its point? Naturally, when women want to speak out about how they enjoy watching gay sex or relationships, we have to be psychoanalyzed. Don't see that so much when it's men watching two women. I'm signing out of this discussion. I had hoped to share the POSITIVE aspects of straight women/gay men, not be hinted that I might be damaging the gay community. God, just the opposite. I'm celebrating them.