Thank you for laying your views out and explaining things so clearly and practically, koshersalaami. The centrists on each side need help from one another, otherwise the extremists on both sides will keep using one another as an excuse--that is a great point you make (among many others). Great post!

The problem with the two state solution alternative is the one state solution. What Ariel Sharon feared more than anything was a situation where the Palestinians and Arabs would eventually form a majority of the population of the state of Israel, and that was the major reason why he cut Gaza loose. The most likely thing to happen in Israel is that nothing will be done. The Israeli government will be on autopilot. Ipso facto, the one state solution will become reality.

And when that does happen, apartheid will be a reality in Israel. Yes, Israeli Arabs are discriminated against in Israel right now. But imagine the government trying to totally assimilate and govern the West Bank and Gaza. They do anyway, but the fiction of independence is preserved for now. But once Israeli settlements eventually reach their maximum potential (which will be inevitable), then one state will be where it's at and valid comparisons will be able to be made between Israel and the bad old South Africa.

If Bibi & Co. were really operating in their own self interest, they'd be trying to figure out how to legitimately implement the two state solution as fast as their little legs could carry them. And the Palestinians would be making more of an effort to assist the Israelis in doing so.

Unfortunately, "enlightened self interest" and "Middle East" are antithetical terms.

Clay Ball,
Thank you

ONL,
I'll agree with that. I don't think they're acting in self interest either, not either side

Very thoughtful, but two elements are overlooked:
1. Hamas rules Gaza not because the Palestinians in Gaza universally desire the destruction of Israel, but because Fatah and the PLO were and continue to be a corrupt organizations that have drained billions from Palestine into Swiss Bank accounts. The people of Gaza may not agree with Hamas, but at least they no longer have to pay bribes to see a doctor.
2. The factional right wing politics of the Jews in Israel make Bibi Netanyahu possible and their inability to cede any control of any part of Jerusalem to Palestinians under any terms makes any two-state agreement impossible. They're already trying to dictate the dress and behavior of secular Israeli Jews, imagine what they'd do if the Palestinians attempted to assert control over East Jerusalem. If Yitshak Rabin and Arial Sharon had not been struck down, Bibi would be a moot point, most likely serving time in an Israeli prison for his own criminal corruption.

You did touch on "water rights," which ultimately is the final sticking point. Since the day Abraham set foot in Canaan the eternal contention over water rights has been the root cause of conflict between the leaders of the people of Israel and those who live in proximity. Short of a massive desalination infrastructure, potable water is life in the land of the Bible, always has been and always will be.

Jmac,
Given the possibilities for solar there, I'd work on that desalinization infrastructure.

I know that about Gaza. The electoral problem still exists, even if everyone has figured out that Fatah isn't that kind of corrupt any
more.

I cannot say that I hold w every aspect of this piece but I have to say it's a robust, superb presentation. r.

Jon,
So where do we differ?

This was an excellent post full of great ideas and energy. Many ideas I have thought about and agree with. While their are many hurdles even after all you say is done, there will always, always, be revenge and hate. I really think if you get by everything else, this will be the final hurdle, and it is a big one.

Scanner,
True, but I think the majority would accept it if the deal were equitable enough.

There would also need to be a truth and reconciliation process as well as punishment to those who have committed crimes on both sides as well as international (actual honest brokers) observers and troops along the borders at least for the short term.

AP,
Possibly, but I doubt that's feasible. I think the crimes on both sides criterion would probably sink it. I can't think of a single international party both sides would trust with a function like that. My guess is that what you have in mind would entail Netanyahu behind bars are something along those lines and you just won't get there from here. He's not exactly Milosevic. It won't be politically feasible.

In terms of troops, you've got a better shot there (so to speak) but there are two criteria:

The troops have got to be impartial.
The troops have to be willing to shoot at violators.

The last experience Israel had with international peacekeeping forces, and this has been reported by participating British officers in Lebanon, is that Hezbollah would deliberately fire missiles from as close to UN bases as they could get, hoping that Israeli return fire would hit those bases. Failing that, they'd launch from hospitals, hoping that return fire would result in a PR disaster for the Israelis. If the peacekeeping forces can't stop that sort of thing, they won't be able to function.

You're not going to get symmetrical behavior on both sides, at least not in Gaza, because Israel is not dedicated to pushing Palestinians out of Gaza but Hamas is dedicated to pushing Israelis out of Israel.

If Hamas launches missiles or anything else while there are international peacekeepers in the region and those forces can't stop it instantly, Israel will retaliate, and then the peacekeeping forces will be in a terribly difficult position. Also an ineffective one.

If we could get it to work, great. I have my doubts. I think they'll have to either handle it on their own or get a really unusual third party. Up until the flotilla incident, I'd have suggested the Turks.

Excellent job of laying out your proposed plan. When I finished reading this I began to think of the parallels within our own country; i.e., right versus left. I can see no way in either case to come up with a plan that will satisfy each side without considerable compromise. And that is the one thing that has seemed out of the question.

Lezlie

If the ICC is good enough to put African dictators away, why not those who have committed crimes in Palestine and Israel?

As far as Milosevic I would recommend reading Chomsky and Parenti to find out his crimes were bad but no worse than just about all the others involved including Clinton and Wesley Clark.

Regarding Hamas, they had adhered to the Peace treaty prior to the Gaza massacre in 08/09 until Israel broke it. Again, I would recommend Chomsky on this point.

Why would Israel push Palestinians out of Gaza, it is currently the world's largest outdoor prison. Hamas launches missiles because they are being occupied. I too would launch missiles if I were treated as badly as those in Gaza. So would any self respecting American.

In the court of world public opinion, Israel is not in a good position, except for its big bully friend, America. As America slides into economic decline and eventually collapse, Israel will need to make fast friend's with the next biggest friend on the playground. I think if Israel is concerned about its future they need to stop being the aggressor and make some major concessions before it is too late.

You write:

"When it comes to this issue, we worry about two things:

1. The survival of other Jews.

2. Not seeing ourselves as oppressors.

"Make no mistake about this: The first worry absolutely trumps the second worry. It’s not close. The second worry doesn’t even enter the equation until the first worry is addressed."

end of quote

This is incredibly honest and undoubtedly true and this is the crux of the issue which I think blocks and will continue to block peace and reconciliation until #2 is addressed. Denial and minimization are toxic and exceptionalism is rampant among many Jewish Americans re Israel and among many of all Americans re America.

Both of your listed considerations have to matter and be explored.

The same way the US citizens have got to get their consciences out of the deep freeze with our corporate war-mongering.

THE GAZAN WAR was vicious and inexcusable, the horrifying injustices of the SETTLEMENTS must not be minimized and are also inexcusable! Forgive me for feeling strongly about the injustices perpetrated!

You are very good at double-binding your reader re commenting, kosher.

Pragmatism is important but should not be exclusive from accountability and reality. They deserve to be in the discussion along with the emotion.

By centrists welcome at your table do you mean those of us not emotional about what is happening to the Palestinians in Israel and the war-mongering about Iran?

Maybe those of us willing to "trod" (for kim) on that third rail -- that third rail the existence of which has helped the Zionist lobby get such a death grip on mostly all of our supposed US representatives in the executive and legislative and judicial branches -- which has caused us, the darers to call out Zionism, to be accused of anti-semitism and resented. Situations which deserve to be called out! Otherwise denial and minimization is such a cozy place to stay in for way too many, those so many millions of good people "willing to do nothing" out of cronyism or tribalism.

I get emotional because of the "deaf to reality of the leadership and military" cronyism that causes harsh truths to be minimized or denied among many people regarding both the US and Israel.

I wish you well with your quest. It is a serious beginning but needs to be less preciously exclusionary. my take.

best, libby

Patiently and intelligently argued.

CM,
Thanks

AP & libby,
I could argue comparative morality here because I don't agree with either of your assessments, but the fact that I don't is a moot point. In terms of what you are arguing that we should do, I simply do not see a feasible route from here to there. I'm not asking Why, I'm asking How. You aren't going to get the Israeli leadership in front of an international court, even if you were assured of a conviction there, which you aren't. You wouldn't be able to accomplish that if the US wasn't backing Israel, because Israel would not be convinced that whoever attempted to enforce a solution wouldn't simply preside over Israel's dissolution. Israel will not accept dissolution under any circumstances. They would, under those circumstances and only those circumstances, go nuclear.

Not that we're close to that. To get there, you first have to shake American backing. American backing of Israel comes primarily from two major constituencies: Jews and the Christian Right. The backing in both cases is serious and ardent. Unusually, these two groups are mostly on opposite ends of the political spectrum, which means that any given politician can't run away in either direction.

So, what's the best you can do?

That's exactly what my post is about. The only way I see from here to there is to convert the American Jewish and Israeli Leftist populations.

You will not accomplish that by suggesting that we arrest Israel's leadership. You will accomplish that, if it can be accomplished at all, by insuring Israel's long-term safety in creating a Palestinian state.

Libby, you say "Pragmatism is important but should not be exclusive from accountability and reality." My answer is that I am not being exclusive from reality. Quite the contrary, I'm insisting on it. You can't get to your version of accountability from here.

If you really, really think you can get to accountability from here, make your case. Tell me how. Outline a scenario that you view as possible to getting there.

If you can't, the discussion isn't even worth having. I'm not interested in a theoretical discussion, even though I think I could hold my own in one far more than I'm guessing you give me credit for. I'm tempted, I really am, but for the time being I'm resisting that temptation because it is, I'm afraid, a secondary consideration. It would ultimately result in pointless moralizing.

I'm not here to vent and I'm not here to entertain venting, I'm here to Fix This as best I can.

This is the best I can do. If you can do better, great. But that's my question: Can you do better by offering a more Feasible solution?

You have the floor.

As usual, you make sense. Good argument, well-laid out. I only hope that Bibi N does not try to influence this election in November by doing something rash.

Lea,
I don't think he has the internal constituency to do it. Obama has been helpful where it counts, and Peres, among others. don't want to burn the US.

Well said.
It is worth saying that neither AP or Libby can divorce themselves from their positions of 'getting someone to pay', whether sensible or not, to respond to any possibility of a future for the Israelis and the Palestinians.
These kinds of behaviors are the barrier to any progress; these attitudes are the enemy of the Palestinian future.

This is an excellent presentation...(borrowing Jon's word)...What I came away with was sorrow. I cannot see a solution. It would take decades. In the meantime as the problems grow, the settlements expand, and the missiles fly..the greater chance there is for a regional war which would destabilize the entire world. I am not optimistic when it comes to the Middle East. I do not see any solution that would give each side what they want. Are biblical claims good forever? Who owns the land? Why do the Israelis have to have Abraham's original land? Is peace more important? Why can't Jerusalem be an international city? Too many questions.
I think the Israelis have to figure out whether they want war or peace. And to that end they have to ready to risk all.

I want to say that I'm pleased w how respectful these comments have been regardless of pov.

It's also worth mentioning that Gaza is ruled by a terrorist org largely bc Bush and Rice acted as if they believed that the simple act of voting is democracy and of course it's not, not w.o the structural requirements for it. I knew Hamas would win the Gaza vote. Why in hell did Bush and Rice not know it?

Rated........no comment.....

Traveler,
That's their initial reaction. I don't know how they'll approach this from a more operational standpoint because I haven't seen them try yet. First they have to figure out if they think it's necessary and, if not, why not. I'm also, of course, trying very hard to stay out of the Who Deserves What conversation; my own takes on that are radically different from theirs. However, if their views on this are irrelevant, so are mine.

Jon,
That's because after a couple of years here I finally figured out how to couch this. I've said before that these conversations were counterproductive, but I've never put counterproductive to what end front and center. This time, my initial premise is not "I want to protect Israel from disproportionate abuse," it's "I want to lay out how to accomplish something we both want."

Ande,
The Israelis won't have to have Abraham's original land, though they will probably have to have the ability to visit his tomb. However, that's a two-way street - the Palestinians will need a way to get to Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. And here we get to why not to internationalize Jerusalem:

Probably the most consistently moderate Arab nation in the area is Jordan. From 1948 until 1967, East Jerusalem was controlled by Jordan who, incidentally, ejected the very old Jewish community from Jerusalem in 1948. During that period, Jews were not permitted to worship at the Western Wall, which is the single holiest site we have. I'm not talking about Israelis here, I'm talking about Jews. If you were to look at the world during that period, you would have found Jewish populations in (but not limited to) the United States, Canada, Cuba, Mexico, Guatemala (small community but I have family there), Argentina, Great Britain, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Morocco, South Africa, Yemen, Algeria, Syria, Bulgaria, Iraq (a community which was over 2 1/2 millenia old), the Soviet Union, Italy, Iran, and Australia. How many of those countries do you figure Jordan had diplomatic relations with? Why wouldn't Jordan want the tourism? Since then, Israel has controlled all of Jerusalem, and Muslims have worshipped at Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock daily. Israel won't trust an outsider with the site.

To further clarify: It helps to understand the geography. In Jerusalem, there's a sort of mesa that's called the Temple Mount. The Holy Temple used to be on top of it. The Western side of the mesa has a huge stone wall which is called the Wailing Wall, the Western Wall, or the Kotel. On top of the Mount, which is where the Temple used to be (we don't know exactly where) are a pair of ancient mosques: Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. Though this is not a Muslim pilgrimage site like Mecca and Medina, it is the third holiest site in Islam, in spite of the fact that it is not actually mentioned at all in the Qur'an. So, the side of the hill is the holiest site in Judaism while the top of the hill is the third holiest site in Islam. Separating them territorially doesn't exactly work. Israel has a track record of good stewardship of the site, while the most moderate of Arab states does not.

Can peace happen? Probably. It's certainly in everyone's best interests. For one thing, people tend to forget that Israel has a record of exchanging land for peace - they gave Egypt the Sinai Peninsula, complete with Israel's only functioning oil well, in exchange for a treaty. And the government that did this was a Likud government, Netanyahu's party.

We'll never persuade all Israelis or all Palestinians. However, we don't have to; we have to persuade the majority of each. The current climate won't allow for that. What this post is about is how to change that climate to begin to allow for that.

I'm not sure I can even accomplish that here, but here is where I'm seeing if it's possible.

Lezlie,
The US would work a whole lot better if we had anyone remotely impartial enforcing accuracy. Right now, accuracy is wildly asymmetrical, with the less truthful side taking more and more physical ownership of the media, insuring that accuracy is a difficult thing to increase in reporting.

Jon,
You could ask that question about most of the 2nd Bush administration's policies. Like the entire Iraq invasion. Thomas Friedman was saying in the New York Times - kind of a hard place to miss if you're following journalism at all - on better than a weekly basis before and during the invasion that the most important thing would not be the invasion, it would be the aftermath. He harped on this. Instead, Rumsfeld overruled the Pentagon, did it on the cheap, and Baghdad ended up with a whole lot of looting and without electricity for most of each day, taking a population that might have actually welcomed us as liberators and turning them against us in a hurry. This was an administration that, as Clinton pointed out, seemed incapable of arithmetic. The stupidity was mind-boggling. The fact that the Tea Party never held them responsible for anything at all is terribly telling but somehow has been ignored in the current election cycle.

Kosh:
1. I know that I may sound insane...but I don't understand the significance of holy sites for either side if there will be no one left to pray at either. Why, over the centuries have structures been more important than the people? Cathedrals, Pyramids, Walls and Domes.
What is stone? Is it better lathered with blood?

2. I agree with your basic premise that the Palestinians must have their own state. Seems that none of the other countries in the area will make room for them. I am moved by their plight. But if the solution is not equitable for both sides, as they perceive it to be, then war will continue. Choosing a 'place' for the Palestinians to move reminds me of someone telling me that all Jews should move to Arizona. (True story) Imagine the results they said.. cancer centers, blooming desserts, manufacturing, tourism...

So why don't all Jews move there? Because we want what we we want, not what someone else thinks is better for us. And because of that I don't see a ready solution to Palestinian Statehood. To their way of thinking, they already have a state and it is called Israel.

Aside (off topic a bit)

I was working in DC a while back and saw Jimmy Carter crossing Pennsylvania Avenue with Begin and Sadat. I was so thrilled. " There they are, I thought, the three sons of Noah...and they will get this done."

A Middle Eastern peace must be brokered. Is there any one person in the world that could do that without their own strategic or special interests in mind? Think of the Knesset trying to come to a consensus on anything.

Time for lunch. :)

Let's agree to disagree, politely.

Palestinian claims to the land on the West Bank are based upon the right of conquest. They took the West Bank in 1948 and held it until 1967, when the Israelis took it back by force of arms. Two wrongs don't make a right, but the truth is that possession is 99% of the law and, right now, the Israelis have possession.

When the Palestinians held the West Bank, there was no discussion of either repatriating the land or compensating the Jews who formerly lived there.

In more practical terms, the Palestinians won't settle for monetary compensation because what they want is control over the Temple Mount, over the Old City itself, and the Israelis will never give that up.

Is there another city in the world that serves as the capital for two different countries? None, unless you consider the Vatican and Rome to the be the same city.

Palestinians have access to the Temple Mount, the Dome of the Rock, and the Al Aqsa mosques right now. I've been to all these places several times. The only restriction there is that orthodox Jews may not set foot on the Temple Mount, and that's by Jewish law. Where have you heard otherwise?

Free movement between Gaza and the West Bank will never happen, because that would require giving potential terrorists the right to travel throughout the country.

More to the point, Gaza should be under the Egyptian rule because they have more in common with the Egyptian people than with the people on the West Bank.

There are many more historical issues that would become highly argumentative but perhaps this isn't the place for them.

Right this second as I write, the Palestinian president is rising to speak at the General Assembly, to be followed by the Israeli prime minister. Mahmoud Abbas now saying that he doesn't believe the Israelis are committed to a two state outcome. The Israelis are about to say that the Palestinians don't want a two state solution. Both statements are correct. Neither side wants the two state solution.

It is also true that the failure to create a two state solution will inevitably result in the Jews becoming a minority group within Israel. Over time, the Palestinians will win by default as they outgrow the Jewish population.

And that's when the shit will really hit the fan.

Since the Arab Spring most of your thinking is out of date. What's clear, and has been clear for a long time is the only thing that is going to work is a war in which Israel is defeated so the theocracy is kicked out of power and a secular, genuinely democratic government elected rather than the current right wing domination.

If Palestine is going to be a viable state it's going to need a lot more land back, not only the lands currently being occupied. The Arab world understands that, and will soon be in a position to help. I don't think they're going to do it so half-assed this time. Egypt alone has a larger army, but it will take a coordinated effort that is not yet possible. Making enemies of Turkey was as arrogant and self-destructive a move as they could possibly make.

The US may be able to limit the scope of the bloodshed, and should do so in the name of humanity, but it is obvious Israel hasn't been a friend of the US for a long time, and hopefully Obama in a second term will not allow himself to be led around by it. His recent refusal to see Netanyaho was one of the strongest moves I've seen him make in the campaign, reflecting what a lot of American's think--Jewish and non-Jewish--enough is enough.

It's time for the Palestinians to sit and wait. The cavalry is coming.

Sagemerlin,
The question about free movement becomes Will terrorism be viable if there are two separate states? Arafat had cooperated with Rabin on intelligence based on a lot less than an actual state.

Ben Sen,
What exactly do you mean by "land back"? Palestinians never owned what is now Israel, ever. It was owned for a long time by absentee Turkish landlords, but never by Palestinians.

Palestinian Muslims haven't been the majority population in what is now Israel within the last three centuries and may not have been before that. A Dutch cartographer who toured Palestine in the late 17th century put together what was essentially a crude census, populations and religions of all the towns in the area. Most had Jewish majorities and sizeable Christian minorities. Only one had a Muslim majority. The names of the towns were almost entirely based on Hebrew rather than Arabic. What Muslim population there was was primarily nomadic Bedouins. I read an article in the New Republic in the '70's that talked about a census done in Palestine prior to WWI - not II, I - and, at that time, of the three religious populations in the region, the largest was Jews. It isn't only Jews who immigrated to Palestine in the last century or so, it was also Syrian Arabs looking for jobs as a result of the influx of Jews from Europe. There are twin assumptions being made here: that the Muslim population is basically indigenous and that the Jewish population is basically imported. Neither is true; both are both, and the extent to which both are both has been seriously misrepresented.

I hate to break it to you, but if Israel feels like it is about to cease to exist, you're looking at nuclear war. They wouldn't use nukes or threaten to use nukes to get their way but they will if it's the only route to survival, which is true of any nuclear power. If that happens, Palestinians won't get Israel either.

You have the model backward. It isn't defeat that will get rid of the power of theocratic elements, it's security. Israel moves rightward when it feels threatened. If you want liberalization there, you're moving in the wrong direction. When is the only time in its history that Israel gave up land? It certainly wasn't from war; war is what makes them want more land as a buffer. They gave up the Sinai, complete with their only functioning oil well, when Sadat signed a peace treaty.

Dealing with Israel is like wearing Chinese handcuffs: The harder you pull, the more stuck you get. That's not the way to get out.

Ande,
It's partially about structures, but not completely. I'm not as personally invested in the location as I am with the principle. The truth about Zionism is that when Herzl first came up with the concept, he didn't even have Israel in mind - he just wanted a Jewish country. Anywhere he could get one. But, of course, "anywhere" typically meant dispossessing somebody, and the political support that built for the movement built partially on religious grounds when Jews said "If we're going to go somewhere, why not just go home?" Palestine was barely inhabited at all at the time (see Mark Twain, who visited), and a lot of the people who did live in that sparsely populated backwater were Jews.

Far more Muslims were moved in the same time period when Pakistan and India became independent than when Israel was founded, but the primary issue that wasn't resolved was Kashmir.
And India has a huge Muslim population, the largest in the world. So it isn't about displacing Muslims, really.

In fact, there are Arab governments saying that a return to 1967 borders would fix this. A Saudi prince tried to broker that once.

Defusing this would do amazing things for the region, and I think it is doable, though I'm not sure the actors are in place who can do it. The most capable actors at this point are probably those in Fatah; neither Hamas nor Likud looks any good. The solution I think is to replace Likud; the trouble is that too many people think the way to do that is to increase pressure, when the way to do that is actually to reduce pressure. Getting threatened by Iran keeps hawks in power, and Netanyahu is fundamentally a hawk.

Let us say the Arabs adopted your point of view--which they should do and it is in their best interest--there will always be a tougher problem: the land. Even in a solution where Israel's neighbor is an unarmed Palestinian State, I do not see Israel giving back settlements. Excellent analysis. R

Thoth,
They did in Gaza. Soldiers dragged those settlers out.
Some they may keep, but they will need to compensate, maybe in land elsewhere. The alternative is worse. That's what may drive this: the alternative is worse.

Kosh, don't be disingenuous. Have you ever been to Gaza? No one wants Gaza. Not the Israelis, not the Egyptians, and not even the Palestinians, but there's a huge difference between Gaza and the West Bank.

Gaza was originally a frontier fortress on the border with Egypt. The West Bank is right in the heart of Israel and puts Jerusalem into a no man's zone between the two regions. Ceding the West Bank would cut Israel in half.

It's not going to happen.

You won't hear a word anybody says until the armies are about to enter Tel Aviv. Without the US you have virtually no allies and I think there will be a limit to how much the leadership of this country will go along with Israeli folly. What once appeared as a show of righteousness, will become inconceivably short sighted and mistaken.

Then your excuses for what you have done won't matter. The result of your intransigence, sad to say, is more and more likely to be war, and this time the suffering of the Jewish people will be due to it. It is a terrible thing to watch but no other option appears in sight.

You can't fool all the people all the time regardless of how much you fool yourself.

Ben Sen,
I spent this post making a suggestion. I notice you don't make one. Your answer seems to be "conquer Israel." I stated that if Israel were on the verge of being conquered, with or without American help, they'd launch nukes. Your answer was...............not to answer. I get the impression I'm reading a propaganda piece.

Sagemerlin,
I haven't been to Gaza. The Palestinians are in the West Bank now. Where else are they going? I'd assume they'd have to come up with a demilitarized state as a state with a standing army would be untenable.

I notice that Ben Sen, Alaska Prog and Libby never mention anything the Palestinians could do to make this better. That the Gazans routinely launch rockets, make threats and promise the extermination of Israel is ignored.
If Hamas and the Gazans decided not to threaten any more, not to launch rockets and attempted to make peace, that would make Netanyahu look foolish and progress would be made.
No one asks or expects them to do that. That would be better for them - and yet none of the ultra liberals here would even suggest that as an answer. In that point, they and Romney have the same opinion.
The Palestinians share the blame for the situation and they must share part of the pain of a solution.
It is patronizing and bigoted to ignore them as responsible actors in this.

The typical continuing mendacious myopia of the traveler; a typical month in israel:

"1000Mar 20, 2012WBAnnexationIOA orders halt construction Palestinian House

999Mar 20, 2012WBIllegal detentionMilitary court extends administrative detention of 72yr old Al-Haj

998Mar 20, 2012WBKidnap/RaidIOF arrests 2 man, raids homes in Jenin

997Mar 20, 2012WBKidnap/RaidIOF kidnaps young man, raids homes in Al Khalil

996Mar 19, 2012WBAnnexationPalestinians denied access to water springs

995Mar 19, 2012WBKidnapIOF detains 2 teenagers in Qalqilya

994Mar 19, 2012WBSettler AttackZionist settlers grab water springs in WB Palestine

993Mar 19, 2012WBArrestsIOF arrested 75 Palestinians last week

992Mar 19, 2012WBR of M (*)IOF bars Palestinian diplomat from traveling to UN conference

991Mar 19, 2012WBAttackIOF transfers prisoners, tear gassed them and tortured them

990Mar 19, 2012WBAttackIOF invades Nabi Saleh

989Mar 18, 2012GazaDeprivationDeprivation of basic needs will cause humanitarian tragedy in Gaza

988Mar 18, 2012WBDeprivationIOA to destroy a German funded solar energy project

987Mar 18, 2012WBAnnexationIOA reports to build 187.000 appartments in occupied Palestine

986Mar 18, 2012WBAttackIOF storms Al-Khalil Villages

985Mar 18, 2012WBAttackIOF hits deliberately a bus and wounds 27 Palestinian workers

984Mar 18, 2012WBAttackIOF shoots a 6 year old child with live ammunition

983Mar 17, 2012WBAttackIOF attacks fishing boats in Gaza

982Mar 17, 2012WBAssassinationTwo palestinians killed in Syria attack

981Mar 17, 2012WBSettler AttackZionist settlers attack a child in tel Rumeida

980Mar 17, 2012WBAttack/kidnapIOF strom Hebron, detain 2 Palestinians

979Mar 17, 2012WBKidnapIOF arrests a school teacher in Silwan

978Mar 17, 2012WBApartheidIOF smashes a Palestinians camera to prevent him “capturing truth”

977Mar 17, 2012WBSuppressionBeit Ummar protest violently suppressed by IOF

976Mar 17, 2012WBSettler AttackZionist settlers cut hundreds of olive trees near Nablus

975Mar 17, 2012WBAttack3 palestinian families invaded by 100 IOF soldiers

974Mar 17, 2012WBAnnexationIsrael allocates millions to build synagogues in occupied Jerusalem

973Mar 17, 2012WBSettler AttackZionist settlers assault Shepherds and wound him

972Mar 17, 2012WBAttackIOF invading Nabi Saleh attacking even homes with tear gas

971Mar 17, 2012WBZionismIOA wants to deport Hana Shalabi (hungerstriker) to Gaza

970Mar 17, 2012WBSettlerAttackZionist settlers open fire on Palestinian student

969Mar 17, 2012WBDemolitionIOF demolishes homes of Jordan Valley families, making them homeless

968Mar 17, 2012WBApartheidIPS isolates dozens of prisoners in Naqab prison (Negev)

967Mar 17, 2012WBAttacksIOF breaks in detention camps six times this week

966Mar 17, 2012PalWeekly ReportViolations, R of M (*), demolitions, evictions – 24 killed 74 wounded

965Mar 17, 2012WBPropagandaIOF caught on video in a lie about Tristan Anderson

964Mar 16, 2012WBViolations24 Palestinians on hungerstrike in prison to protest violations

963Mar 16, 2012WBAttackIOF wounds 8 of which 1 seriously at WB demos

962Mar 16, 2012GazaAttackIOF Naval forces break cease fire and fire/shell

961Mar 16, 2012WBAttackIOF attacks demos in WB Palestine

960Mar 16, 2012WBAttackIOF shoots an Israeli activist in the head at a demo in WB Palestine

959Mar 16, 2012WBAtrocitiesIOF unleashes attack dog at non violent unarmed protester

958Mar 16, 2012WBSuppressionBethlehem demo met with Israeli violence

957Mar 16, 2012WBR of M (*)IOF closes roads in occupied Jerusalem for a marathon

956Mar 15, 2012GazaAttackIOF bombs farmlands in Gaza

955Mar 15, 2012GazaAttackIOF F16′s violate Gaza airspace again

954Mar 15, 2012WBRaidsIOF raid Tulkarem

953Mar 15, 2012WBOccupationIOF soldiers occupy roof of Palestinian house turn it into an outpost

952Mar 15, 2012WBSuppressionNon violent rally for hungerstriker Hana Shalabi violently suppressed

951Mar 15, 2012WBDemolitionShed demolished in Nablus

950Mar 15, 2012WBDetentionMother with Baby arrested at a checkpoint

949Mar 15, 2012WBKidnapIOF kidnap 12 Palestinians

948Mar 15, 2012WBAttackIOF troops storm West Bank Areas

947Mar 15, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheed Identity unknown Palestinian shot yesterday at funeral

946Mar 15, 2012PalWeekly ReportWeekly report with violations, attack, R of M (*) and more by PCHR

945Mar 15, 2012WBKidnappingsIOF started mass arrests of children in Silwan

944Mar 15, 2012WBDemolitionIOF uprooting olive trees in Nablus

943Mar 15, 2012WBAttack/demolitionAl-Jifnik village raided, home demolished leaving over 20 homeless

942Mar 15, 2012WBAttacksZionist violence against Christians
 
941Mar 15, 2012WBAttacksIOF raids villages in WB at night, shot tear gas, raid house

940Mar 14, 2012WBKidnappingsIOF rearrest liberated prisoner, five brothers

939Mar 14, 2012WBApartheidAttorney calls for dismissal of minor’s testimonySource  
938Mar 14, 20121948Ill-treatment300 prisoners in Nafha prison on hungerstrike

937Mar 14, 2012WBDemolitionIOF plans to destroy wind turbines in WB Palestine

936Mar 14, 2012WBIllegal detentionPalestinian released in Shalit exchange deal rearrested

935Mar 14, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheed Baraka Al-Mughrabi 7yr old Died due wounds of massacre

934Mar 14, 2012GazaAttackIOF attack causes timber depot in Gaza to burn down

933Mar 14, 2012WBKidnappingsIOF detains five Palestinians

932Mar 14, 2012GazaAssaultIOF strikes Gaza despite cease-fire

931Mar 14, 2012WBAttackSettler assault Palestinian in the WB

930Mar 14, 2012GazaIllegal detentionIOF detains a car dealer at Erez crossing

929Mar 14, 2012WBIllegal landtheftIsraeli “State Land”  illegally taken from West Bank

928Mar 14, 2012WBIllegal detentionMP Al Haj-Ali starts  hungerstrike against administrative detention

927Mar 14, 2012WBAttackIOF raids and raza a car wash

926Mar 14, 2012WBDeprivationIOA plans to destroy solar energy panels which provide their lifeline

925Mar 13, 2012WBDemolitionIOF uproots/demolishes farmland near Hebron

924Mar 13, 2012WBR of M (*)IOF prevents volunteers from working on Palestinian Land

923Mar 13, 2012WBIllegal ColonySettlers expand Hebron settlement

922Mar 13, 2012WBApartheidIOF closes Ibrahimi mosque during Jewish passover

921Mar 13, 2012GazaAttackIOF troops shoot at funeral in violation of calm

920Mar 13, 20121948ViolationIOF troops move prisoners Nafha prison to unknown location

919Mar 13, 2012WBSettler AttackSettlers steal 250 olive trees from Palestinians’ land

918Mar 13, 2012WBAttackIOF raid homes in the West Bank

917Mar 13, 2012WBKidnappingsIOF arrests 10 Palestinians in WB

916Mar 13, 2012WBKidnappingsIOF arrests 7 Palestinians incl. 4 children

915Mar 13, 2012WBApartheidWhole bus of Harvard Law students arrested at a checkpoint in WB

914Mar 13, 2012WBSettler AttackZionist settlers cut down 150 olive and grape trees in Wad Abu Reesh

913Mar 13, 2012WBApartheidIPS punishes prisoners for solidarity with hunger striker

912Mar 13, 2012WBKidnappingsZionist forces kidnap 5 youths in Beit Ummar night raid

911Mar 13, 20121948ZionismZionist rabbi calls targeted killings Tikkun Olam

910Mar 13, 2012WBDeprivationSameh El-Wayda died of cancer, former prisoner of Israel

909Mar 13, 2012WBSettler AttackSettlers open fire at Silwan’s students, 1 taken to hospital

908Mar 13, 2012WBAttackChristians attacked for challenging zionism

907Mar 13, 2012WBChild kidnaps16 children arrested in 1 week in Silwan

906Mar 13, 20121948Kidnap/AbuseDirar Abu Sisi, kidnapped by mossad, now abused in prison

905Mar 12, 2012WBKidnappings2 teenagers arrested in Ras Al-Amoud

904Mar 12, 2012WBIllegal detentionHealth of illegally detained Hana Shalabi, deteriorates

903Mar 12, 2012PalAtrocitiesChildren traumatized after arrests/detention, 8000 detained

902Mar 12, 2012PalDeprivationIOA imposed racist policies damage Palestinian Health care

901Mar 12, 2012WBDemolitionIOA orders Jordan Valley ponds to be destroyed

900Mar 12, 20121948AttackPrisoners refuse to stripsearch, clash with Israeli police

899Mar 12, 2012WBAttackIsrael attacks Asqalan prison, leaves 11 woudned, 1 seriously

898Mar 12, 2012WBAttackIOF raid ex-prisoners home

897Mar 12, 2012WWWSlanderIOA paid propaganda launch campaign against OCHA employee

896Mar 12, 2012WBSettler AttackSettlers destroy olive trees in Beit Ummar

895Mar 12, 2012WBApartheidIOF arrests 8 Palestinians in WB Palestine

894Mar 12, 2012WBR of M (*)IOF blocks movement of cars at Bethlehem checkpoint in WB Palestine

893Mar 12, 2012WBSettler AttackPalestinians wounded after IOF/Settler attack

892Mar 12, 2012GazaCall 4 GenocideWife of Israeli Vice PM calls for Genocide on Gaza

891Mar 12, 2012WBApartheidIOF summons released prisoner near Hebron

890Mar 12, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheed Bassam el Ejla | 24 years old | Assassinated by zionist forces

889Mar 12, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheed Mohammed Dhaher | Assassinated by IOF

888Mar 12, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheed Mohammed Al Hasoumi | 65 years old | Assassinated by IOF

887Mar 12, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheeda Fayza Al Hasoumi | 30 years old, Assassinated by IOF

886Mar 12, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheed Nayif Shaaban Qarmout | 17 years old | Assassinated by IOF

885Mar 12, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheed Raafat Jawad Abu Eid | 24 years old | Assassinated by IOF

884Mar 12, 2012GazaAssassinationShaheed Hamadeh Salman Abu Mutlaq 24 yrs old Assassinated by IOF

883Mar 12, 2012 WBSettler AttackSettlers uproot Palestinian olivetrees

882Mar 12, 2012WBR of M (*)IOF places military gate, limits access to Beit Iksa (Palestinian) Land

881Mar 12, 2012WBKidnap/MinorsIOF arrests 5 Palestinians of which 3 children

880Mar 12, 2012WBAttacksIOF attacks non violent demo, journalists in Nabi Saleh

879Nar 12, 2012GazaAttacksNew Airstrikes wound 35, mainly children in residential urban building

878Mar 12, 2012GazaAttacksNew airstrikes kill another 2 Palestinians, raise dead to 20

877Mar 11, 2012 GazaAttacksNews air raids killed total 18, many wounded incl. women and children

876Mar 11, 2012 WBSettler AttackDrunk settlers assault two international women (with video)

875Mar 11, 2012 WBAttackIOF storm Palestinian house, attacks it’s residents

874Mar 11, 2012 GazaDeprivationGaza power stations shut down again due to Israeli siege/blockade

873Mar 11, 2012 WBSettler AttackSettlers attack palestinians shepherds & Int’l Activists near Nablus

872Mar 11, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Adel Al Issi |  52 years old | Assassinated by zionist forces

871Mar 11, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Ahmed Deeb Salem | 23 years old | Assassinated by IOF

870Mar 11, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Ayoub Useila | 12 years old | Assassinated by zionist forces

869Mar 11, 2012 WBAttackIOF arrests 3 Palestinians in HalhulSource  

868Mar 11, 2012 WBSettler AttackSettlers attack two towns in WB

867Mar 11, 2012 WBAtrocitiesIOF release 16yr old, to walk home handcuffed

866Mar 10, 2012 PalWarfareUS sends 600,000 tear gas canisters to Israel

865Mar 10, 2012 GazaDeprivationGaza Power plant shuts down 3rd time this month due to deprivation fuel

864Mar 10, 2012 WBAdm. DetentionPalestinian Academic Ahmad Qatamesh receives third detention order

863Mar 10, 2012 GazaAttackIOF shoots at funeral in Gaza, 5 wounded, 1 died afterwards

862Mar 10, 2012 WBAttackIOF wounds 2 non violent protesters at a anti-wall demo

861Mar 10, 2012 WBAttackSix casualties in bus shooting at Ofer

860Mar 10, 2012 WBSuppressionWomen’s Day protest suppressed violently by IOF

859Mar 10, 2012 GazaAttack/WoundedMa’an reporter & Wife injured in airstrikes on Gaza

858Mar 10, 2012 WBAttackMassada Unit launches night raid on Palestinians Prisoners

857Mar 10, 2012 WBEthnic cleansingIOF endorses building 55 housing unites in Al-Quds

856Mar 10, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Mahdi Abu Shahweesh 24 yrs old. Assassinated by IOF

855Mar 10, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Mansour Abu Nusaira 21 yrs old, Assassinated by IOF

854Mar 10, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Hussein Breik   | 51 years old | Assassinated by zionist forces

853Mar 10, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Muhammad al-Ghamry 26yr old Assassinated by zionist forces

852Mar 09, 2012 PalAll ViolationsWeekly Report Violations on (Human)Rights Palestine/Palestinians

851Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Yahya Dahshan | 27 years old | Assassinated by zionist forces

850Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Ahmad Hajjaj | Assassinated by zionist forces

849Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Mohammed Al-Moghary | Assassinated by zionist forces
 
848Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Mahmoud Nejem | Assassinated by zionist forces

847Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Moatasem Hajjaj | Assassinated by zionist forces

846Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Fayeq Saad | Assassinated by zionist forces

845Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Shadi Al Ziqali | Assassinated by zionist forces

844Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Hazem Qraqe | Assassinated by zionist forces

843Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Muhammad Harara | Assassinated by zionist forces

842Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Obeid al-Ghirbali Assassinated by zionist forces

841Mar 09, 2012 GazaAssassinationShaheed Zuhair Qaisi PRC secretary-general. Killed by zionist forces

840Mar 09, 2012 Gaza Attacks 2 killed in airstriked on Gaza

839Mar 09, 2012 WB Child kidnap 5 children arrested in Silwan- Al Quds (J’lem)

838Mar 09, 2012 WB Attack on Press Photographer sentences to 18 months & 5000NIS fine

837Mar 09, 2012 Gaza Excess death 18 month old toddler died, sister injured after fall in tunnel

836Mar 08, 2012 WB Ethnic cleansing Jordan Valley residents receive demolition orders

835Mar 08, 2012 WB Ethnic cleansing Janba & Bir al Ad residents receive demolition orders

834Mar 08, 2012 1948 Ethnic cleansing IOF razes Al -Araqib for 36th time

833Mar 08, 2012 WB Settler violence Settlers invade West Bank accompanied by 30 army vehicles

832Mar 08, 2012 Gaza Excess Death Report: Thaer Abed Al Hameed Mahdi, murdered by the siege

831Mar 08, 2012 WB Assassination IOF kill Palestinian Zakariay Abu Iram in Al-Khalil (Hebron)

830Mar 08, 2012 WB Apartheid IOF suppresses with violence, women’s demo at Qalandia – 

829Mar 08, 2012 WB Child arrest IOF arrests 13 year old child in Nablus

828Mar 08, 2012 WB Settler attack Zionist settlers uproot and steal 100 Olive trees in WB

827Mar 08, 2012 WB Child kidnap 6 children arrest during night raids

826Mar 08, 2012 WB Settler attack Zionist graffiti in J’lem targets Palestinians and Christians

825Mar 08, 2012 WB Kidnap 6 Palestinians arrested and car seized in Beit Ummar

824Mar 07, 2012 Gaza Invasion IOF invades Gaza, closes border briefly

823Mar 07, 2012 Pal Apartheid IOA postpones courtcase of hungerstriker in healthdanger
 
822Mar 07, 2012 Pal Report IOF issued 100.000 administrative detention orders since ’67

821Mar 07, 2012 WB Raids IOF raids homes of prisoners

820Mar 07, 2012 WB Settler Attack Zionists attack shepherds, threaten to shoot sheep next time

819Mar 07, 2012 WB Apartheid IOA adjourns trial 2 administrative detained MP’s

818Mar 07, 2012 WB Apartheid IOF detains British delegation in Al-Khalil (Hebron)

817Mar 07, 2012 WB Confiscations IOF seizes 15 vehicles near Jenin

816Mar 07, 2012 WB Settler Attack Zionist settlers attack youth

815Mar 07, 2012 1948 Ethnic cleansing Israeli bulldozers destroy wheat crop in Naqab

814Mar 07, 2012 WBRaid/ Arrests IOF arrest 6 in Hebron after incursion and clashes

813Mar 07, 2012 WB Arrests IOF arrests 12 Palestinians, among 2 previously released prisoners

812Mar 07, 2012 Gaza Attack Limited IOF incursion into Northern Gaza with tanks

811Mar 07, 2012 WB Settler violence Settlers attack village near Ramallah

810Mar 07, 2012 1948 Apartheid Man summoned to court for not singing Israeli anthem

809Mar 07, 2012 WB Land theft Settlers try to install outpost in evacuated settlement

808Mar 07, 2012 Gaza Attack IOF shoots at demo at Erez Border, Gaza

807Mar 07, 2012 WB Kidnap Youth arrested in Al-Quds

806Mar 06, 2012 WB Settler violence Jewish illegal settlement spews sewage into palestinian villages

805Mar 06, 2012 WB Excess Death 2 children, Hamza 13, Ziyad Jaradat 12, die of left behind IOF ordnance

804Mar 06, 2012 WB Settler violence Zionist settlers set up an illegal checkpoint in South of Jenin,  WB

803Mar 06, 2012 WB Arrests IOF arrests 2 near a illegal jewish settlement

802Mar 06, 2012 WB Arrests Zionist police breaks into a mosque in WB

801Mar 06, 2012 WB Arrests IOF arrests 20 Palestinians accros WB

800Mar 06, 2012 WB Report 200 residents of Hebron arrested since start 2012

799Mar 06, 2012 WB Zionism Israeli rejoice over death of Palestinian children of bus accident
798Mar 06, 2012 WB Adm. Detention IOA extends administrative detention MP Abu Teir

797Mar 05, 2012 WB Kidnap IOF arrests 3 relatives of prisoner, of which 2 women

796Mar 05, 2012 WB Kidnap IOF arrests 15 throughout WB, among 5 children in Silwan

795Mar 05, 2012 Pal Report IOF commited 25 violations against press in Febr 2012

794Mar 05, 2012 WB Apartheid IOA renews administrative detention of Palestinian politician

793Mar 05, 2012 WB Attempted kill IOF wounds Palestinian teenager shot with tear gas canister to head

792Mar 05, 2012 WB Kidnaps IOF arrests Palestinians including 5 children

791Mar 05, 2012 WB Kidnaps Two women and a child kidnapped on visit to prison

790Mar 04, 2012 Gaza Zionism IOA deliberately opens flood dams to Gaza, homes & health in danger

789Mar 04, 2012 WB Raids Soldiers invade Jenin, break into homes

788Mar 04, 2012 WB demolition IOF razes agricultural building in Tulkarem

787Mar 04, 2012 WB Apartheid IOF occupies building in Jenin

786Mar 04, 2012 WB Zionism IOA refuses medical examination of hunger striking political detainee

785Mar 04, 2012 WB Judaization IOA planning turn Islamic museum into synagogue
 
784Mar 04, 2012 WB Apartheid IOA black outs prisoners cells in Ofer

783Mar 03, 2012 WB Attack Shepherds attacked in Jordan Valley

782Mar 03, 2012 WB Demolition Land caves in in Silwan due to israeli excavations

781Mar 03, 2012 Pal Report IOF  arrested 54 children in February

780Mar 03, 2012 WB Apartheid IOA renews administrative detention of Palestinian lawmaker

779Mar 02 2012 Gaza Excess death 1 killed, wounded in Gaza smuggle tunnels, due to israeli siege

778Mar 02 2012 WB Attack Non violent  Demos Bilin and Nabi Saleh attacked

777Mar 02 2012 Pal Report IOF kjilled 1 civilian this week,  wounded 6

 776Mar 02 2012 WB Raid IOF raids Tarqumya

775Mar 02 2012 WB Annexation IOA announces to uproot 120 Palestinians in Tubas

774Mar 02 2012 WB Attack IOF attacks weekly demos with tear gas

773Mar 01 2012 WB Attack IOF storms ward of Hamas prisoner

772Mar 01 2012 WB Apartheid IOF demolishes a protest tent in Khirbet Sousya

771Mar 01 2012 WB Annexation IOA legalizes an illegal outpost in WB Palestine

770Mar 01 2012 WB Attack Zionist police harass prisoners in Asqalan

769Mar 01 2012 WB Raids/Kidnaps IOF kidnaps 12 Palestinians in Jenin and Hebron

768Mar 01 2012 WB Political arrest IOF arrest senior Islamic Jihad member

767Mar 01 2012 WB Political detent. IOA sentences palestinian for 4 years for political “affiliation”

766Mar 01 2012 Pal Report REPORT: Army & settlers carried out 145 attacks in Feb 2012

765Mar 01 2012 WB Annexation IOA confiscates in Wadi Hilweh Jerusalem"

 
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/special-topics/♻-all-attacks-on-palestine-▶-overview/ 
 
*Note IOF refers to israerl occupation army, which is a far better description than israel defense force;  IOA refers to israel occupation archive. 

ALL of these "incidents" are meticulously sourced at the website, many with photos or video evidence.

This is perfect, beautiful, helpful.

Traveler,
As I said to begin with, I'm not interested in discussing who's at fault, which I'm more than capable of doing. I care how we fix this. I've replied to Alaska Progressive and libby; I'll decide what I think when they answer if they answer. From their own perspectives, they're at least giving it a shot. From Ben Sen I got exactly what I would have expected. Still, the purpose of this post and this discussion is not to point fingers, it's to point to the most likely path toward a successful solution. I've made a case.

Hi Mark. Haven't seen you in a while. I used you as an example recently; I think it was to counter the contention that Jews don't criticize Israel. It also occurred to me, which I said, that my avatar would actually fit you great.

Got any reactions to the post itself?

Kathy,
Thank you

I've been around, Kosh. Much of what I read and the general state of the site makes me reticent to post. When I see the traveler carrying on with his CONSTANTLY one-sided view of the situation, it behooves me to counter what I consider "hasbara (propaganda)."

I don't think I understand why You think Your avatar would suit me. When I scan the site, I see an overwhelming number of posters writing about israel and judaism.

With all due respect, I thank You for Your thought, but I feel perfectly comfortable with my avatar.

As to the actual theme of Your post, I've gone on record previously, and still believe that israel has abused it's mandate to form a state sufficient to force them back to the original borders they were granted, and their propensity for overstepping those boundaries and malevolently provoke not only the Palestinians, but ALL of their neighbors is sufficient reason to warrant a UN peace-keeping force stationed along those borders to keep them within those boundaries.

It is not without reason that for MANY years now, polls taken in Europe consistently indicate that Europeans consider israel THE greatest threat toward world-peace:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=eesh&gs_nf=1&cp=58&gs_id=6e&xhr=t&q=poll+of+europeans+as+to+the+greatest+threat+to+world+peace&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=poll+of+europeans+as+to+the+greatest+threat+to+world+peace&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=d2275c9bc959b5bc&biw=1272&bih=855

Mark,

Not that I'm offering to give up my avatar, but do you know a more devoted Jewish peace activist than yourself, particularly on OS? You've looked at the avatar, right? Peace sign superimposed on a Mogen David? I use it because of my screen name.

Thanks for finally translating Hasbara. I never knew what it meant back when I was part of the Hasbara Four. I started to figure it out when Amy sent me to a site, I think after some argument or other that broke out on Traveler's blog. Maybe mine, I don't remember. Anyway, I was kind of startled by how similar a lot of our arguments were but I hadn't known these guys existed; I'd reached my own conclusions independently.

Aside from the Kotel, which wasn't within the 1967 borders, I don't really have a problem with your solution, if it works. It's preferable to the status quo, assuming that those forces stopped actions in both directions. Frankly, if it actually kept the Israeli population safe, I think most Israelis would prefer it to the status quo. I'm not sure I agree that Israel's 1948 borders were a result specifically of a mandate rather than military realities, but that's more of an analytical than a substantive point.

But let me back up a minute. Let's say for argument's sake that I like the UN solution. This post isn't about what a solution should look like so much as it's about how to get there. I would like you to address that. Thanks.

Despite obfuscation by israel, claiming miscommunication regarding the sinking of the american ship u.s.s. liberty in 1967; more than two dozen crew members of the ship contend that the act was deliberate, and there is no question that it occurred in international waters.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,43090.story

There have been numerous other instances of israeli disregard for the concept of international waters (and borders).

Knowing that, I believe an armed force would be necessary to provide cover to a team of UN Peacekeepers. Once docked, with sufficient military force, israel should be forced to recede to the territories originally granted to them. Then these borders, the same as originally established should be ringed by a UN Peacekeeping force.

As israel has been a rogue state for so long, I think they should be forcibly condemned to live TOTALLY within the constraints established by resolution 106 of the United Nations on May 15, 1947, with NO exceptions.

Needless to say, all walls, private highways through the occupied lands, and illegal settlements should immediately be dismantled.

From my viewpoint, as I've said numerous times before; israel has succeeded in destroying itself via a thousand SELF-INFLICTED wounds.

Before anyone takes issue with my characterization of israel as a "rogue" state, I would like to point out that many former and current CIA officers believe that israel is the number one country spying ON the united states.

Not to belabor the obvious, israel refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

and although it has never been proven, Victor Gilinsky, a former member of the u.s. Nuclear Regulatory Agency has gone on record saying that he believes that "israel . . . stole bomb-grade uranium from a us navel fuel plant . . . "

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2004/may/13/israels-bomb/

There are numerous other reasons to characterize the state as being a "rogue" state such as being the target of SIXTY-FIVE U.N. resolutions from 1955-1992 (as opposed to zero such resolutions during that time period leveled against the Palestinians).

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html
http://www.ifamericansknew.org

Please detractors do not attempt to portray the U.N. and Europe as being virulent anti-semites - that canard has been foisted for far too long.

Mark,
Though I might be tempted to argue some of these points, that would take me off track. The only point I will argue is that Israel is religiously pluralistic when it comes to Muslims in ways that none of the surrounding countries or entities are to Jews, and the reason I raise this point is specifically because of the Kotel. Israel has not made Al Aqsa or the Dome of the Rock unavailable to Muslim worship. Jordan's record with the Kotel was worse, and I'm just not sure I could overlook that asymmetry.

The problem I'm having here with a few responses, including yours and libby's and perhaps Alaska Progressive's, is that I'm not asking what the destination should look like, I'm asking for the road map to get there.

"The UN should" is all well and good but, under current circumstances, without American support or at least approval, the UN won't. Now comes the issue of getting American support or approval. How do we get American support for any two-state solution, including yours?

In order to get there, you have to do something about whomever is in your way. Who is? There are two politically active populations supporting Israel in the US: Jews and the Christian Right. One is a critical core constituency of the Democratic party and the other is a critical core constituency of the Republican party. The Christian Right is terrified of Islam and views Western Israel as the Middle Eastern bulwark holding the hordes back, in addition to which there is some prophesy fulfillment involved. With all due respect, we don't have a prayer in that direction.

Your other choice is Jews. The advantage we have with Jews is twofold:
1. Many Jews actually care whether Palestinians are oppressed, just because we object to oppression and we particularly object to it when Jews are responsible.
2. If you reach Israeli Jews who aren't on the Right, which you reach in some of the same ways as American Jews, now you've got actual voters and you have a shot at getting rid of Likud.

So, Jews it has to be.

But, there's a problem:
Jews will worry about other victims of oppression up to a point. That point gets crossed when the survival of Jews is at stake. One of the legacies of the Holocaust is that threat neutralization automatically comes first - first we survive, then we help.

If you look at Gaza, the message coming from the leadership there is, as far as a lot of Jews are concerned: You will not survive. Terrorism, missiles at S'derot, the Hamas charter.

I need to be clear here: I am NOT, repeat NOT, making a moral point here. I am not talking about whether or not Hamas is justified. In some respects, I think Hamas is doing precisely what Netanyahu hopes they'll do, because as long as they continue doing that, Netanyahu can neutralize support for a two-state solution. How many conversations do you think take place at American Jewish dinner tables that sound like "Are you crazy? They want to kill us! How could you give them a state, right next to us? They'll just use it to kill us!" And you better believe the Christian Right is supporting that viewpoint.

It is at the point where we think they don't want to kill us that we move from being combatants and defenders of our people to being oppressors. That, Mark, is precisely where the game changes. Because when we don't view our lives as being threatened by Palestinians, we stop being survivalists and start being Jews. At that point, we start worrying about oppression. At that point, we will view ourselves as being able to afford to say: This is immoral and has to stop.

The problem isn't only Hamas, though. Sure, it's going to be difficult to talk about oppression of one of the most oppressive, least tolerant organizations on the planet, but we may at that point be able to get around Hamas and get around to the general population, who are not one of the most oppressive, least tolerant Peoples on the planet. The other problem is the voices supporting Hamas.

"The Israelis are practicing genocide!" Bullshit. Oppression, yes. Genocide, not even close. The Jewish response: "They're lying about us! They're antisemites!" And, of course, once they're antisemites, we get a License To Stop Listening. If we want change in Israel, we cannot afford to issue Licenses To Stop Listening. If we want to stop issuing those licenses, we have to stop spouting bullshit just because we're pissed.

In the meantime, a whole lot of people are issuing Jews Licenses To Stop Listening. Ahmedinejad is doing one of the best jobs in the world at this at the moment. He's running around talking about how Israel should be eliminated while funding and arming Hezbollah to kill Israelis, developing nuclear technology, and developing longer range missiles. (Yes, Israel is a nuclear power, but Israel has never run around talking about how anyone should be eliminated.) And, while he's at it, he's holding Holocaust Denial conferences in Tehran. I am not saying that Israel should attack Iran; I hope it doesn't happen. I am saying, however, that a lot of people are a whole lot more tolerant of the provocation than to the reaction to it. This is backward. A lot of Jews look at this backwardness and say "antisemitism," and, further, say "and the people leaving Ahmedinejad alone while vilifying Bibi for getting worried are the people who want us to give the Palestinians a state? Figures."

That, I'm afraid, is who we have to get around. If we don't, no UN intervention, no state, just a growing number of suffering Palestinians.

No more screaming because it feels good.
No more screaming because we're right.
It's counterproductive.
If our screaming means Palestinians suffer for longer, then it's up to us to stop screaming so we can accomplish something.

Because screaming ain't working.

This is a really interesting comment thread, lots of thoughtful comments. Regarding the verbal threats from Iran, at the Non-Aligned Movement summit held in Tehran last month, I think it was a positive step when United Nation Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon very clearly stated that those kind of threats are unacceptable. In his speech in Tehran he said:

I strongly reject threats by any member state to destroy another, or outrageous attempts to deny historical facts, such as the Holocaust. Claiming that Israel does not have the right to exist or describing it in racist terms is not only wrong, but undermines the very principles we all have pledged to uphold.

When You write these words, Kosh: "If you look at Gaza, the message coming from the leadership there is, as far as a lot of Jews are concerned: You will not survive. Terrorism, missiles at S'derot, the Hamas charter," it is incumbent to, also, look at the following words as a counterpoint:


"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Israeli prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982

David Ben Gurion, future Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985: "We must expel Arabs and take their places."

Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940. From "A Solution to the Refugee Problem": "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."

"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them, ... we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years' time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart."
(Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 1973)

"make their life so bitter that they will transfer themselves willingly"
(Binyamin (Benny) Elon, some date around 2003)

"The Talmud states that...two contrary types of souls exist, a non-Jewish soul comes from the Satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness...Rabbi Kook, the Elder, the revered father of the messianic tendency of Jewish fundamentalism said, "The difference between a Jewish soul and the souls of non-Jews...is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.""
(Israel Shahak, 1999)

I think it is a good logical format, points well made. I also think too many outsiders are playing chess here and those (like me but I have no power) do not have the right to make this a game. I do believe that the ability to sanctify Jerusalem as sanctified ground where all the "people of the book" rise to a higher consciousness will be the ultimate test but I am not so lost in the clouds as to expect that until there is trust and uniform abhorence of violence there. but first is for the Jews to speak as one voice and the Palestinians to answer. certainly can support everything you have proposed.

Kenneth,
I have no problem with whoever joins, so long as they address the issue that I actually put on the table.

Mark,
Yes, Muslims were deliberately displaced in 1948. So were Jews; the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem was shelled by Jordan until everyone had to leave to survive. You'll notice that in my post I talked about reparations for that specific population, in spite of the fact that no one is talking about reparations for displaced Middle Eastern (non-Holocaust) Jews, even though that population is actually larger. However, this is a tangent.

So, what's the difference in the rhetoric?
Two things, really:

1. One is current. A lot of what you quoted is older than I am, and I'm about to turn 58. Most are not recent.

2. I don't think there is a threat on the table to drive Palestinians out of either the West Bank or Gaza, but there's certainly a threat to drive Israelis out of Israel.

It isn't only the rhetoric itself, it's the consequences of the rhetoric. Some general talking about how thoroughly he's going to defeat his opponents is not quite the same as the equivalent of a constitutional amendment to eliminate another country.

By the way, I'd really look into that Begin quote. It sounds for all the world like he's quoting a Nazi, assuming that the source is reliable to begin with. That doesn't sound in character. This is the guy who gave the Sinai Peninsula with Israel's only working oil well back to the Egyptians in exchange for a peace treaty. Begin was self-righteous and perhaps pedantic but this just sounds out there.

Golda Meir had a point - there wasn't an entity to give the West Bank or Gaza to. The Palestinians had no government.

All of which is beside the point.

What we really have to know is that the Palestinians can't decide to have a state without the Israelis. It's the Israelis we have to influence first, because militarily they have the upper hand. Which gets me back to my post.

Although it would be exhausting and counter-productive to argue with closed minds, MIJ's quotes are easily found Anti-Israel sites and further light web searching can find that most of them have been debunked as either distortions or actual fabrications.

MIJ should stop relying on name-calling, hatred and preconceptions and hew to the purpose which is to discuss a possible path to a settled peace with security for both sides.

Traveler,
I'm trying to avoid getting into it too much about his quotes, but my point to everyone is what you finish by saying:

"hew to the purpose which is to discuss a possible path to a settled peace with security for both sides."

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I'm asking everyone to do what you just said. If someone has another feasible path toward a two-state solution, and what I'm looking for is not

What the destiniation should look like

which is what a lot of people want to discuss, but

What the road map looks like for getting there.

That's my question. That's a legitimate question. The rest is wheel-spinning without that.

No one can really help Palestiunians without a road map.

If the priority is really to hurt Israelis rather than help Palestinians, then moral legitimacy of whomever choses that path is gone because that is not the path to peace, it's the path to conquest.

I started looking around.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=1446

This discusses a lot of the quotes from Mark's list. I'm afraid that list wasn't vetted very well.

Here are two more links dealing with the distorted and/or false quotes.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=371

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=775

You and I have been all through this before and my recommendation for bulldozers in the desert still stands. If this is unacceptable then a Palestinian state needs to be established in the Palestinians homeland, Egypt! As far as Israel herself I am beginning to grow impatient with her for allowing a refuge from an insane asylum to destroy the relationship American Jews have spent the last sixty years building for Israel with America.

Actually, Jack, I think their ancestral homeland is primarily Syria, not Egypt.

Whatever

Kosher, this is an excellent statement of beliefs with a well-rounded argument. I think you’ve added a lot of substance to the often (nearly always, in fact) one-sided and ethnically blinkered contributions on this site.

I must confess, though, to a certain reserve at your explanation for the existence of the State of Israel:

“The point behind Zionism is to give Jews a homeland where we are the majority because after about two millennia of not being the majority anywhere, we never stayed safe to the point where we could reliably continue practicing Judaism.”

A couple of years ago, over cocktails before a small dinner party, I suggested the same basic justification – which I still believed in at the time – to a young Israeli air force officer of Tunesian extraction, who was visiting in Berlin. My point was that while I understood why a Jewish state was necessary for Jewish refugees fleeing discrimination and potential genocide, I didn’t see the need for people who had been living perfectly reasonable lives in places like Brooklyn and Paris to pick up Israeli passports at the airport and move straight onto Palestinian property in the West Bank. The officer nearly choked on his martini. “No!” he said. “That’s not the point of Israel at all. It has nothing to do with any refugees, or genocide, or safety. The reason Israel was founded was that Jews could live according to their faith and fulfill the dream of living in the land that God has given us!”

So my problem with the arguments justifying the State of Israel and its behavior towards that region’s original inhabitants is that there are actually two narratives being told – a Bible-based and wholly delusional one for the initiated and a rational-sounding version for the rest of us, who are called upon for political and financial support.

So while I do accept and appreciate your narrative on this page, I can’t help wondering which version of the story is “for real.” Without knowing that, I’ve found it extremely hard to make my mind up about the practical details.

@ Alan Nothnagle

Why does there have to be only one or two or any specific numbers of reasons? There is a practical problem that exists and there needs to be a practical path forward and seeking history for the answer is like considering meteorology when what one needs is an umbrella because it is raining now.

Alan,
Three things that might help you:

1. When Israel was founded, the US wasn't as egalitarian to Jews as it is now. My grandfather had to pass as Christian to be employed as an engineer at a company engaged in the war effort in WWII, just a few years before the foundation of Israel. This was, incidentally, in New York City. The officer you spoke to is unaware of some things. Real equality was not common for Jews in 1948.

2. Zionism has two strains. The guy who actually founded the movement, Theodor Herzl, didn't care where the Jewish state was. A lot of the people who signed on early decided they wanted to go home, ancestrally home, largely for religious reasons. The officer in question concentrated on one of the two strains.

3. "That region's original inhabitants" is a phrase that contains two inaccurate assumptions: That Jews are a completely immigrant population and that Arabs are a completely indigenous population. When I talk about Jews being indigenous, I'm not talking about 2000 years ago. A Dutch cartographer visited Palestine in the late 1600's and essentially did a census, town by town, at which point the largest population was Jewish, the next was Christian, and the smallest was Muslim. In the 1970's I read an article in the New Republic talking about census data from Palestine from before WWI. That's before Naziism existed. At that point, Muslims outnumbered Christians, but the Jewish population was larger than either. By that time, the numbers reflected some early Jewish immigration from Europe but they also reflected Syrian Arab immigration into the region looking for jobs created by Jewish immigration. Now we know the descendants of those Arabs as "Palestinians" and assume they've been there since time immemorial. The truth, however, is that if we were scrupulous about defining "Palestinian," the majority of Palestinians would be Jews.

Now, this is all just for your information because, with the possible exception of Ben Sen, most of the commenters who hate how Israel behaves still think it should continue to exist, just within more restricted borders. Starting from that premise, most of us agree, sometimes for different reasons, that a two-state solution would be best for all concerned. This post is about what it would take practically to accomplish that. It really isn't about establishing the desirability of Israel's continued existence or about the morality of either side's behavior.

Does this help you at all?

A typhoon knocked out electricity, here, for two days, so I apologize for this late response. As I searched and found the begin quote to be false, however one commenter on the site, offered the thought that people should not listen to the leaders' words, but watch the state's actions.

My post, listing over 250 provocations, deaths, and attacks by israel occurring within a twenty day period, is not only meticulously sourced, but is a daily occurrence. I read Ha'aretz, daily, and many of the incidents I recalled clearly at the time they occurred.

Today, it was a Palestinian fisherman killed.

The attack on the u.s.s. liberty, the israeli spy ring on Washington, and the theft of uranium should, also, be considered as a part of israel's actions.

I blocked "camera" from my email years ago as they are an integral part of the israel lobby. They have attacked Peter Jennings, NPR, Steven Spielberg, B'Tselem, and Rabbi Michael Lerner and Tikkun; amongst others.

John Mearsheimer mentions despicable individuals such as Gary Bauer, Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed and Pat Robertson, as well as Dick Armey and Tom DeLay, Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, I. Lewis (‘Scooter’) Libby, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz and David Wurmser as members of the lobby, plus other groups and individuals.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby

Taken together with aipac, the lobby possesses incredible ability to strong arm american votes in israel's favor.

i've already offered my opinion as to what should be done to curb the rogue state, but Kosh via PM offers that the solution is not viable possible and asks what actually CAN be done.

To that, I have no answer - I can only offer in a previous comment, my opinion about what I believe ought to be done.

Mark,
Firstly, I'd like to thank you, for two things:

Disavowing the Begin quote, and

Being the Only person in these comments expressing opposition to Israel who stated that he couldn't answer my question rather than just ignoring it. That is a courtesy I appreciate.

Regarding Camera:
This is not a site I follow. (Frankly, I don't regularly follow any other than this one.) What I can say about them in this case is that they provided parts of some of the quotes in question that were omitted in the versions that came from your source(s) and that this omitted content changed the meaning of those quotes pretty drastically. I will assume bias on their part (you and I have no shortage of bias either); the question in this case is whether they would go so far as fabricating the rest of these quotes or their contexts. Biased or not, if they reported accurately then they showed more integrity in this particular instance than the source(s) from which you derived some of those quotes. Whatever that source or sources was, I would be extremely careful about trusting them because bias led them or some of their sources to attempt deceipt deliberately.

I can take bias into account. I'd be more concerned about deliberate deception from any of the sources involved.

How anyone - especially those participating in this discussion, believe that the "ancestral homeland" of the Palestinian people to be anywhere other than Jordan?

The Palestinian "people" were created out of whole cloth when, in 1923, the British partitioned the Trans-Jordan British Protectorate into two separate protectorates, the one we know today as Jordan and the one known as Palestine.

Prior to 1923, there was no territory on Earth known by that name. The area was known as Judea, Romana Judea and, finally, Romana Palestina during the Roman Empire Period. From the fall of the Empire onward, the area was known as either Jerusalem or the Holy Land in the West. The Muslims knew it as Jerusalem. During the Ottoman Empire occupation it was not known as Palestine. It was only with the British occupation that the use of the name was revived.

If you examine the dispersion of families who were living in the "Palestine" of the British mandate, you will find many of their families have branches in Jordan, but few in Syria or Egypt.

The Jordanian people are the Palestinian People, and Jordan is a Paletinian Country.

Sagemilner,
Thanks for the information about family links. I wasn't aware of it.

All this leads me to a series of questions:

During the Nixon administration, I think in 1970, Yasir Arafat led a Palestinian revolt inside Jordan which was put down militarily by King Hussein. How were the Palestinians differentiated from the Jordanians? They had to be somehow.

In 1948, when the Palestinians who lived within what became Israel at the time left, mostly voluntarily, they moved into the West Bank and Gaza, which I assume were already inhabited, particularly the West Bank. Was there any differentiation of who was who, refugees and presumably Jordanian (?) inhabitants? A followup: In 1967, when Israel took over the West Bank, did any of these Jordanians request to cross the border and go to their country, Jordan? I find the definition of this pair of populations pretty confusing.

A last question, one I doubt you can answer but which has recently occurred to me:

If the term Palestinian applies to long-term inhabitants of what some have called Palestine, why aren't Jewish Palestinians recognized as Palestinians? There were, at various times and probably for a period of at least a few centuries, more of them than there were Muslims in the area. (This acknowledgement of who actually lived in Palestine when, that Israel wasn't strictly a question of an entire population that had been gone continuously since the Roman Empire, seems to me to be the largest myth about Israel. I think many Americans, and possibly Europeans, believe that the foundation of Israel was analogous to the foundation of the United States, with a foreign population pushing aside the aboriginal population, except with some dim claim from two millenia ago. That isn't true.)

I'm conversing about this stuff but, really, I'm being drawn into a conversation I should avoid.

The truth is that whatever migration happened has happened. There are now two populations under what could loosely be described as Israeli rule: the "Israeli" population and the "Palestinian" population. Neither is going anywhere. The question becomes: What do we do about that? How do we defuse this conflict without forcing a whole lot of people over a border or two at gunpoint or killing them, neither of which I view as an acceptable option?

They need to live somewhere. I don't think there is another viable option than the two-state solution and, if that's the case, we have to figure out how to make a two-state solution happen, because the alternatives are all worse.

It is discouraging, but not expected, that the anti-Israel writers here show up on this discussion only to throw their hate speech and then leave.
LLNYC said she couldn't write because of Kosh's 'double bind'; I'm not certain exactly what she meant. Kosh asked that we not re-argue the past but only discuss a plan to get from here to a sustainable future.
If there is no possible discussion from their side, then the only possible conclusion that can be drawn is that they prefer a state of war and occupation because that allows them to act out their hatred.

I'd note to the perpetually myopic traveler that I through out a plan; a plan that Kosh admitted was unrealistic, yet still I responded:

"As to the actual theme of Your post, I've gone on record previously, and still believe that israel has abused it's mandate to form a state sufficient to force them back to the original borders they were granted, and their propensity for overstepping those boundaries and malevolently provoke not only the Palestinians, but ALL of their neighbors is sufficient reason to warrant a UN peace-keeping force stationed along those borders to keep them within those boundaries."

Where's Your plan, lew? If I missed it, perhaps, you'd reprint it.

If you've not offered any, but to dismiss the words of others, maybe it YOU who " prefer a state of war and occupation because that allows them (YOU) to act out their (YOUR) hatred."

Based on previous lies you've told, documented by your own words on my blog, I'd have to presume that IS the case.

And, I might add that spewing vitriol at others who don't see things in your one-sided way is NOT a plan.

a plan that involves one side doing everything and the other side doing nothing is not a plan, that is a delusion.

If the Palestinian groups would change their charters and their speeches to admit that a Jewish State of Israel is accepted, pledge to quit military and terrorist activities and allow Jewish citizens in their state, then Israel could be pressured into giving up settlements and withdrawing to some agreed upon line.
Without action by the Palestinians to balance any Israeli actions nothing will happen.
Israel withdrew from Gaza and look what happened.

For Israel to act unilaterally without Palestinian promises and depend on a UN peacekeepers to keep the borders is not a peace plan but also admits that the Palestinians cannot be trusted to keep their word.

Remember if Palestinians get a state, become part of the UN and terrorists activities continue, that will be a real war - and against the UN Charter.

The situation in Israel is unfair, untenable, and dangerous. It is also stable and suits Israel perfectly. Arguments about who came from where - Syria, Egypt, Central Europe, Brooklyn, or Middle Earth - mean nothing to me, but another fact is that nobody is ever happy about being uprooted from their homes. Kosh - maybe you've seen the Op-ed in The Guardian by Ghada Karmi on Sept. 20, in which she (probably disingenuously agreeing with Romney) calls for a one-state solution for Palestinians in the context of a struggle for equal civil and economic rights. It is the only new suggestion I've seen - and although doomed to failure since it would make 2.5 million more Arabs Israeli citizens, it does have intellectual and emotional resonance. She calls for the dissolution of the Palestinian Authority as a buffer and middleman between the Palestinians and Israel, with a new role as advocate for equal rights in the existing unitary state. And it would challenge Israel to live up to its claim of being a democracy. Maybe I am naive, but since a real two-state solution requires reversing the status quo on the West Bank (which won't happen), maybe this "modest proposal" will get people thinking about how to correct the current inequity without starting a war. (Hopefully Karmi lives anonomously in some safe country.)

OJ,
That is the alternative, but I would think that the Israelis would prefer two states even at 1967 borders (except for the Western Wall) because if Israel can't maintain a Jewish majority, the idea behind Zionism's origin in the first place is gone. However, if the current Israeli administration doesn't take this seriously, they could in theory end up with a one-state solution. Frankly, I think they'd go with actual apartheid first, and that would be its own disaster.

Nobody needed to be reminded that the alternative to separation is a demographic existential threat, but she employed a rhetorical device in a liberal, widely-read paper to open some eyes. I don't understand how apartheid would be an option when it is already the de facto policy. I love Israel but hate a lot of the people who live there.

@ordinary joe
Again this proposed one-state solution does not require anything of the Palestinians - not a change in attitude nor intent.

There are two comments there that I will quote because they synopsize my beliefs on this:

the first by MatzahBall"

"To many people - even well-intentioned people - the concept of a "one-state" solution sounds like a reasonable way to solve the I/P conflict.

Unfortunately, the proponents of a one-state solution often have sinister goals.

With a one-state encompassing Israel/Palestine Jews will very quickly become a minority. They will likely be treated the way minorities often get treated in the Arab and Muslim world - just take a look at the Copts in Egypt or the current inter-ethnic bloodshed in Syria or the exodus of Christians from Iraq, the oppression of the Bahais in Iran and the brutality meted against the Kurds in Turkey.

Jews will inevitably emigrate from this new one-state utopia, Don't let the talk of a one-state solution fool you. It is simply code for the destruction of Israel. The Arabs are using fancy sounding diplomatic jargon to try to accomplish what decades of war and terrorism could not accomplish."

the other by Darius Fara which references a subject I wrote about before the expulsion of the Sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia -

"You know, I get so tired of the circular arguments that inevitably crop up whenever the ‘Israel/Palestine’ issue. Let’s get it into the context of world history.

At the end of World War II 3 million Sudeten Germans were expelled from the former Czechoslovakia, where their communities had lived since the 13th century. Their homes, lands and businesses were taken from them and they were allowed to take only the belongings they could carry on their backs before being marched, at gun-point, across the German border.

Modern historians estimate that more than ½ million Ethnic-German died as a result of their forced expulsions from Central and Eastern Europe.

Once over the border, the Sudeten Germans were crammed into filthy refugee camps, some of which had previously served as concentration camps for enemies of the Nazi state.

It was a brutal and awful time for the Sudeten Germans. But there had been a war. Their ‘people’ lost. And that’s what happens in wars.

Losers lose.

Imagine if Germans were like Arabs. Instead of the German population striving to settle the Sudeten German refugees into their cities and assimilate them into their society, they would have kept them deliberately impoverished in refugee camps. They would point across the Czech border, and tell their wretched ‘refugees’ that Slavs they had ‘stolen’ their lands and must be blamed for their misery. The children of Sudeten Germans would grow up in overcrowded shanties, filled with hate and dreaming of blowing up Slavs in a Prague cafe.

Germans everywhere would demand the ‘right’ for all descendants of Sudeten Germans to ‘return’ to the Czech lands, to ensure the demographic dominance of ethnic Germans.

But European culture isn’t Arabic culture. Europeans look to the future. They thrive and prosper. Today, you can drive from the Czech Republic into Germany without even realising you’ve done so.

History happens. Borders change. Some people lose. Some people win. It was the way for thousands of years and in some cases, it still is.

And the irony is that throughout history Arab and Muslim peoples have been no strangers to changing the borders and demographics of the lands they’ve conquered.

There is absolutely no point whatsoever in engaging in a debate about the rights or wrongs or historical detail of the I/P situation. The facts are that Israel exists. The clock can’t be turned back. Neither Arabs nor Muslims have a very good track record of coexisting with Jews. The only way forward is to recognise these facts and try to make the best of the situation."

The path has to start with changes by both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

I believe it was Ytzak Rabin who said, "you don't make peace with your friends." I am not an expert on the Middle East but I think your solution suggests something I have been told by others: people think that people are fighting over stuff, over a piece of land, but they aren't. They are fighting over what that land represents. Israeli's must feel that their right to exists is acknowledged and honor. And vice versa for Palestinians. The question of prosecution and/or reconciliation (these can be separate things) is complicated and normally, I would say some sort of process of reconciliation (not necessarily prosecution) is important because post-war reconstruction is very difficult without it. This is perhaps not at challenge for the man or woman on the streer as much as it is for ruling elites. Reconciliation forces a sort of conversation about the past, a negotiation of parts of that past reconciling parties can agree too (e.g. we did not nice things, you did not nice things). Even agreeing to disagree gives those points the light of day. Without this, postwar reconstrcution policy can be stifled because that policy [resupposes there are populations that were affected by conflict and if ruling elites can't agree that those populations exists, it's very hard to develop and implement policies that address the very populations that are most likely to relapse countries back into war: militarized youth. This has been the case in Mozambique. War affected communities were literally written out of post-war reconstruction policies and so it went in many other places. A two-state solution to some degree relieves this burden somewhat because you don't have the same scenario of warring factions now populating your legislative bodies. This is not to say there arent' internal conflict to resolve, but this would help. Peace only happens when the desire for peace -- the concretness of raising your children without harm, going to school etc. s greater than a society's desire to be right. This cannot happen without everyone humanize their former enemies and de-idealizing themselves. I think there are people of good will in both camps. I pray they will prevail in my lifetime.

Antoinette,
I think these two parties are looking for different things. Part of the problem is that they are, they're preoccupied by different issues, and they don't tend to acknowledge this about each other. If they did, this process would be far easier.

The Palestinians want to be treated with respect and have a homeland that another power doesn't automatically assume it can encroach on when it feels the necessity or whim to do so. The Israelis want a country whose existence isn't constantly threatened in which to maintain a Jewish majority because two thousand years of being a minority everywhere else has proven to be too tenuous an existence. Neither really understands the other. The Israelis inspire a tremendous amount of hatred but people everywhere respect them; because they don't lack for respect, they don't view respect as having value so they don't think of showing respect for Palestinians as having any functional importance. They're very wrong about this. The Palestinians essentially derive their identity from being displaced by Jews; if, when they first left what became Israel (either on instructions from surrounding Arab states or forced out by Jews, more actually of the former), other Arab states had taken them in, they probably wouldn't have such a distinct identity in the Arab world. However, because these other states objected to Israel's existence, they kept the Palestinian population distinct, typically in refugee camps, because they wanted human pawns against Israel, so the Palestinians were treated as stepchildren by the Jordanians in the West Bank and by the Egyptians in what was then known as the Gaza Strip. They got respect neither from their fellow Arabs nor from the Israelis. Add to this the lack of respect the Arabs in general have gotten from large parts of the rest of the world over the last few decades (because nearly 100% of their economic gains have been pumped out of the ground) and you get a population that is starved for respect, emasculated by this and especially by becoming a population under military occupation of Jews as of 1967 (which is humiliating for historical religious reasons), and as a result is extremely angry and dangerous. As was once pointed out to me, a humiliated population is the most likely kind of population to produce terrorists, and they predictably have.

Though the Palestinian population either moved or was moved (depending on which parts of the population), at least aside from a brief moment in 1948, most of them have never lived with the idea that someone wants to kill them for living where they live every day, for sixty-five years. Jews are used to being forcibly moved and to being persecuted and killed by host populations. Israel is where they said "No more." So they founded a country (it would take me a while to explain how this happened; the most important thing to understand is that Israel's formation was not a simple matter of conquest by any stretch of the imagination), and they have put up with the idea that people will, every day, given the opportunity, blow them up on their buses, blow them up in their pizza parlors, take hostages, kill hostages (even when those hostages are children), and shoot missiles at civilians every day for years on end with the main international public outcry occurring when they shoot back. What most of the Israelis want is for this to stop. The Palestinians don't really get what's so awful about shooting missiles at Israel; if anything, they view it as a bargaining chip, not understanding that to the Israelis it's an excuse not to bargain. The Palestinians and a lot of the rest of the world view the missiles as a gesture of defiance but functionally as a mere nuisance; the Israelis view it as one in a long chain of existential threats. That's the problem with the concept of post-settlement prosecution: the Israelis view that as another existential threat, putting their leadership under the control of international organizations that they view as having been tilted toward their enemies for decades. If you look at the history of UN Resolutions condemning Israel, you'll understand this - the number of resolutions would indicate an obsession with Israel completely out of proportion to its human rights record relative to the human rights records of the rest of the UN membership, emphatically including those of Israel's immediate neighbors.

So, it's a two-way street of misperceptions, neither bothering to understand what's of real importance to the other.