koshersalaami

koshersalaami
Birthday
October 01
Bio
Male, Jewish, in my extremely early sixties, married with kids (well, at this point I guess that should be "kid"). Thanks to Lezlie for avatar artwork - sort of a translation of my screen name. "Salaam" is peace in Arabic, hence the peace sign. (No, my name doesn't mean "hunk of meat" and yes, the pun is intentional.)

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Salon.com
NOVEMBER 18, 2012 2:44AM

To My Friends Who Are Staying

Rate: 10 Flag


As of tomorrow (EST as it's just past midnight here), I will, apparently with many others, be out of here for a month. I will of course be over at OurSalon.

http://oursalon.ning.com/profile/koshersalaami

So, I wish you a Happy Thanksgiving and a Happy Chanukah, as both will occur during my absence.

Please don't PM me as I can't get into my PM account to read them. There are several there now, well, eight, and I can't reach them. I don't want you to wonder why I'm not answering you; that's why. If you have my e-mail address, feel free to use that.

I'll check back in a month to see how y'all are doing and whether Open Salon is functioning normally again.

There's no reason to treat a decision to stay here as immutable. If you get lonely (I really have zero idea of how many people are making this move), frustrated, or both, please join us.

If not, enjoy your stay. I hope you have an easier time of it than we have.

Again, Happy Holidays,

Ks

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What arrogant tripe! Who do you think cares one iota whether or not you "check back in to see how we are all doing?"

Oh! I forgot. You're some kind of "mover and shaker" now, aren't you. Time to offer some gentlemanly condescension to those whom you think should have "joined you" at Our Salon.

When did you join Our Salon, Kosh? I'll bet you a dollar that it was you who joined me, over there. So don't make out like you had anything to do with Our Salon and are one of its SENIOR members - if it even has such a thing, aside from Lorianne.

If you do check back here to see how we're doing, come in quietly and wipe your feet first. And leave your swelled head over there, please. Be on good behaviour and we'll say "Hi" when you come....maybe.

.
Man, you're pissed at this. I don't mean leaving the note, I mean this whole moving thing.

So tell me,
Who are you protecting?
You have loyalty to OS?

OK,
to WHOM?

Not to the platform. It's inanimate. It doesn't care.

To the administrator? Jake is a newcomer. I can't say I think anyone owes it to him to stay. It's not like he created anything for us, welcomed us, whatever. I don't know anyone who would stay for Jake.

To the writers? Hell, I don't want to leave them behind. That's the point.

So, Sky, whom or what am I kicking?

I see two sets of people. Both have a problem.

Those on OurS don't have enough friends to play with.

Those on OS live in a building with a leaky roof and plumbing that doesn't work. The neighborhood's great but we're all getting wet and the frustration level here is widespread and high.

This is like a math problem. How do you help the most people?

By moving them to the building that keeps them dry.

So, why the boycott? And, incidentally, all I cared about was that the amount of time was fixed; I expressed zero opinion when we were setting this up as to how much time it was. I let a consensus develop, kept my mouth shut, and supported it.

Because it's the only thing that will get people to actually move rather than spending an afternoon over there.

What's the disadvantage of just leaving it open?
Now both sites are open. What do you see? I see two populations with problems.

Aside from which, what do you think is going to happen if anyone comes back "early"?

Nothing. No consequences to them. No ostracizing, nothing. No gun being held to anyone's head.

I'm doing this because it makes sense. The people who stay here are going to be less happy than the people who move. What an absurdly simple equation.

Now, if you're going to tell me I'm wrong to do this,
and, given the success so far, apparently a lot of people disagree with that assessment,

explain to me who our victim is.

And don't just take the lazy way out and say "OS." OS isn't a who.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

Darling you GOT to let me know, should I stay or should I go?

Just do it, if it feels right. Personally, don't see the need for some kind of organized exodus, although the effort is, I suppose, admirable. Our Salon outclasses this old brown shoe of a website in so many ways . . you point to less readership, which is true no doubt, so far, but I posted last night and have (so far) 14 comments and nine "likes" which is good or better than my last several posts at open (readership is way down, or is it ME?). And, while true it is that I used to routinely get 30 or more ratings and lots of comments at open, I no longer equate quantity with quality.
So, to all, if you have the time, patience, and EXTREME loyalty it takes to slog through open's pages, and adore feeling like management, if any, doesn't care about because they don't-- do carry on.
Like I said at Emmerlings the other day, I KNOW I will constantly check in here, because I do have a long history. However, I've become adjusted to and comfortable with Our, and will no doubt continue to spend the majority of my time there. Ciao!
@Sky - "What arrogant tripe! Who do you think cares one iota" what you think? Why so rude and nasty (and to Heidi on another post)?

We were all emotionally invested in OS...but as Kosh points out, it's the community, not the platform, and the platform has let us down. Kosh and others, esp. Lorianne, have taken the initiative to save the community. Why go down with the ship (snarling as you go)? Are you going to participate on OUR (of which you're such a senior member)? Christ man, you often have good things to say, but your fuse needs lengthening.
@Sky......i prescribe one quart Jack Daniels.....and a beer wash....
chill man.....not a biggy...
and for me.....it's still a quart......not no damn liter...
@Steel, I think strong black coffee might be a more effective recommendation to treat that aberration. Or, depending on the diagnosis, maybe Xanax.
I've been pissing and moaning about the Open Salon SPAM invasion for months and now that Kosh has pulled the trigger and organized an Exodus, folks are responding. Woo hoo! Kosh says Happy holidays and Skypixe0's up for a dust up!! Damn I do love the old Open Salon when folks got crazy stupid and ranted ad infinitum. Some of those comment strings were priceless. See you over at Our Salon.
Just took five minutes and two error messages to post my last comment... seems like that's reason enough to make the move... but maybe the SPAMBOT Borgs are right: Resistance is futile.
Another five minutes... what's the AA definition of insanity? Something about repeating the same behavior and expecting different results? As Dr. Phil is wont to ask, "So how's that workin' for ya?" Read and rated with tongue in cheek, ;-)
This reminded me to PM or email a few folks who once were regulars and who may return. See you on Ours.
@Sky: I see I was right the first time I observed that "you don't much like Kosh." Your attitude during this victimless effort has been perplexing. I doubt there is anyone left who doesn't know your intense feelings about this matter, so why not give it a rest?

Lezlie
Jesus fucking christ! Is there only one of you who even bothered to READ what I said - OVER AND OVER AGAIN - !

EVERYONE OF YOU - INCLUDING ME - IS OBVIOUSLY FREE TO GO WHEREVER YOU WISH, WHENEVER YOU WISH, FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WISH!

I am a member OF LONG STANDING (well for the length of time Lorianne has had the site up) of Our Salon. I expect to visit there often. I expect to enjoy reading your blogs and commenting on them. I HAVE NO OBJECTION WHATSOEVER to anyone going over there. I don't even (and you can put this in the bank!) care if you stay there and never come back to OS again in your life!

B U T ........ B U T .......B U T.......... what right do any or all of you have to organize a month long boycott of OS? Do you think your childish attempt to punish OS for not meeting your demands is honourable? Or have you, like politicians, no notion of the meaning of that word. Hell, I waste my time even asking - your boycott answers that in full.

OS has done you all absolutely NO HARM! You have no reason to try to do it harm. And it is THAT that I object to.

And then to get on my ass for not bowing to your pressure to shut up about your incredibly boorish behaviour! Go fuck your selfish, petty selves! If you want a fight over this, I'll take you on one at a time or all at once. And I'll kick your puerile asses too! Y'know why? Because, somewhere deep inside each and every one of you, you KNOW that you're wrong!

Leaving OS, temporarily or permanently, is your prerogative - organizing an unwarranted boycott is a not only unseemly it is insulting to those at OS management who are trying their best to get the site working properly within their means.

As to Kosh, I actually like him a whole lot. He is a tough debater and a good blogger and commenter. He is decent and mostly plays clean. (Well he IS fond of ad hominem and straw man arguments but that's no big deal). However he is damned arrogant at times. I took - and still take - umbrage at the tone of his condescending "I'll come back in a month...." message.

And look at you all, jumping up to "defend" him like he is a helpless little boy being bullied by a big bad man. I'm sure that he appreciates that you consider him so unable to defend himself. Hell, it would make more sense if he were the one defending you lot.

It is not lost on me that the loudest voices coming at me are of those with whom I've bumped noses in the past. What? Do you figure this is a good time to gang up and have at me? GO FOR IT! You lost before and you'll lose again.

And Kosh, if you want to debate the ethics of that boycott, you know where to find me.......

;-)
.
@Steel,
Thanks for the thought but I wouldn't feed Jack Daniels to the hogs. Now a top quality Canadian Rye Whiskey - maybe Schenly's Order of Merit - that would hit the spot! Washed down with an ice cold bottle of Banks of Barbados beer...... yum, yum!
;-)
.
Sky,
I guess my answer to you got lost in the shuffle, which I have to admit I appreciate. It's the comment immediately following your first one.

I keep explaining why a boycott.
To put it in one sentence:

A boycott is what will make people move without being afraid of moving.

They want to be where the conversations are. Right now both sites are open and the conversations are still mostly here, though that is rapidly shifting, but it's shifting because of the boycott.

What I really think is that you should go back and read my answering comment before you complain about the lack of one.

And no, I don't take it personally. We have a disagreement. I'm cool.

Except maybe the arrogance. Regarding that:

Perhaps you think I've addressed this post
"To The Entire Open Salon Community." I didn't. I addressed it to the friends of mine who are staying. Read the title. I don't know how many there are because there are people I haven't heard from lately. There's at least one person whom I value quite a bit who I doubt will be making the move. I want to wish her and anyone else I like who's staying happy holidays. I'll be back to check on them. Arrogant? I'd call it polite. That I have friends who might be staying and who also might like me to talk to them again in a month is not outside the realm of possibility. I don't talk to most of my friends on a daily basis or, frankly, on a weekly basis.

So, I've already addressed the ethics of this boycott. Yes, I did know where to find you, but for my answers to reach you, I'm afraid you can't be too lazy to

scroll up.
I'll also be on a monthlong blog fast at Open Salon as I start up a new blog on Our Salon. See you in a month if Open Salon is still here. Don't take the petulant remarks above too seriously. Oh, you aren't? Hope to see you on the other side.
@Kosh,
I saw it. I was being kind enough to ignore it.

Since you insist; here we go........

(I'll paste your comment in here and respond in CAPS - perhaps sometimes in [brackets])

Man, you're pissed at this. I don't mean leaving the note, I mean this whole moving thing.
WRONG. AND YOU SAYING SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.

So tell me,
Who are you protecting?
STRAW MAN [I've not said that I'm protecting anyone - only you have said that]

You have loyalty to OS?
STRTAW MAN [I've claimed no loyalty to OS - another thing only you have said]

OK,
to WHOM?
STRAW MAN [I've not said a word about any such thing - once more, only you is saying that.]

Not to the platform. It's inanimate. It doesn't care.

To the administrator?
STRAW MAN [I've claimed no loyalty to anyone at all]

Jake is a newcomer. I can't say I think anyone owes it to him to stay. It's not like he created anything for us, welcomed us, whatever. I don't know anyone who would stay for Jake.

To the writers?
STRAW MAN [I've still not claimed to be protecting or loyal to any one - you alone are making the claim that I am]

Hell, I don't want to leave them behind. That's the point.
IS IT EVER! [YOU don't want to leave them behind when you go so you have done your best to take everybody with you. Sheesh, are you afraid you'll feel lonely?]

So, Sky, whom or what am I kicking?
EASY ONE - YOURSELF MOSTLY

I see two sets of people. Both have a problem.
YOU ARE WRONG. [Our Salon was set up as a 'lifeboat'. Almost all of the people there from its beginning are also on Open. One set of people - not two - who enjoyed posting on both places and are grateful to Lorianne for setting it up. That includes me. My understanding was that Lorianne was not setting up in competition to Open.]

Those on OurS don't have enough friends to play with.
WRONG AGAIN! [Most of them are posting on multiple sites and have plenty of "friends to play with". If YOU don't that might not be the fault of any site you're on.]

Those on OS live in a building with a leaky roof and plumbing that doesn't work. The neighborhood's great but we're all getting wet and the frustration level here is widespread and high.

This is like a math problem. How do you help the most people?

By moving them to the building that keeps them dry.

So, why the boycott?
YES. KOSH, WHY THE BOYCOTT? WHO WERE YOU TRYING TO HARM?

And, incidentally, all I cared about was that the amount of time was fixed;
WHY WOULD YOU WANT A "FIXED" TIME? [You weren't trying to support your idea of whipping OS into line (behind you, of course), were you?]

I expressed zero opinion when we were setting this up as to how much time it was. I let a consensus develop, kept my mouth shut, and supported it.

Because it's the only thing that will get people to actually move rather than spending an afternoon over there.
IF THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO GET PEOPLE TO MOVE, THEN PERHAPS IS ISN'T ALL THAT GREAT AN IDEA.

What's the disadvantage of just leaving it open?
EXACTLY!!!

Now both sites are open. What do you see? I see two populations with problems.
I DON'T ... I SEE ONE POPULATION WITH A PROBLEM AND AN ESCAPE HATCH ALL SET UP AND READY TO GO AT ANY TIME THEY WISH TO USE IT. [AND, I see them using it more and more at their own pace and in their own good time. Who the fuck do you think you are to "get" them to do any different?]

Aside from which, what do you think is going to happen if anyone comes back "early"?
I HAVE NO IDEA.

Nothing. No consequences to them. No ostracizing, nothing. No gun being held to anyone's head.
EASY TO SAY BUT YOU AND YOUR CROWD CERTAINLY HAVEN'T IMPRESSED ME WITH THEIR TOLERATION OF A DISSENTING VOICE!

I'm doing this because it makes sense. The people who stay here are going to be less happy than the people who move.
SO NOW YOU'RE THE ARBITER OF WHAT MAKES WHO HAPPY ARE YOU?

What an absurdly simple equation.
THE ABSURD PART I AGREE WITH.

Now, if you're going to tell me I'm wrong to do this,
and, given the success so far, apparently a lot of people disagree with that assessment, explain to me who our victim is.
YOU ARE PERFECTLY WITHIN YOUR RIGHTS TO GO TO OUR SALON. YOU'RE PERFECTLY WITHIN YOUR RIGHTS TO ENCOURAGE ANYONE ELSE TO GO WITH YOU. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG TO INITIATE A BOYCOTT OF OPEN. I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED THAT THERE IS A VICTIM - ANOTHER DAMNED STRAW MAN - DO YOU NEVER STOP TRYING TO PUT WORDS INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S MOUTHS?
[This must be a huge ego thing for you. I've never seen you use quite so many straw man arguments before this. Doesn't it strike you as odd that i've NEVER said or indicated ANY of the things you argue against? Do you make these things up in your head? You certainly have a fertile imagination! Perhaps you ought to ASK me what my stance is - or easier still just read what I've already said. I've said it over and over and over. Don't bother to strain yourself trying to read between the lines - there is no hidden meaning. It's all out there in the open. It may seem strange to you but I said what I wanted to say - not what you would like me to have said. Stupid me, I just can't follow the script you've laid out at all. And how can you look like some kind of "leader" if I won't stick to your script?

And don't just take the lazy way out and say "OS." OS isn't a who.
IS THAT OK, OH GREAT AND GLORIOUS LEADER? [Tough shit if it isn't.]

;-)
.
Can't we just post porn here???

DAMN YOU PEOPLE AND YOUR TECHNOLOGY!! PORNOGRAPHY WANTS TO BE FREE!!!
Oops, I meant, Happy Holiday!!!!
Sky,
What complete and utter crap.
You and I have been commenting on a lot of the same posts about this for two days. When you complain about kicking OS while it's down, I don't think telling me I'm dealing with a straw man is remotely accurate.

I'm not calling for a boycott out of anger. If I were, I'd try to make it permanent.

The people I know here aren't sheep, nor are most of them ethically challenged. And yet, they're going along with this. Why? Because I'm so amazingly charismatic? That's particularly impressive given that I don't know many of the people who have posted the message a group of us put out.

You don't seem to get my rationale so,for a minute, let's make believe I actually had it in for OS, which I don't. I actually find them irrelevant.

If these guys are doing the best they can, I'd like to know how Lorianne is doing so much better with presumably smaller resources.

It would be easy to argue that they've hung us out to dry and I'm just tapping in to immense anger about that.

I'm obviously tapping into something.

But this concerns you. You seem to think I have no right to suggest this course of action.

Of course I do.

You won't accept my real reason, so I'll defend a fake one for you. It,s also defensible.

You still haven't said why it bothers you. Who do you think we're harming? Not what, who?
Kosh,
Glad to see that you've at last recognized that your boycott is unethical and unworthy of an adult.

As to who you're harming by your boycott?

Why it's pretty obvious that many of us on OS who will lose the enrichment of the posts that would have been made on OS as well as the value of the comments on our blogs from those same people, are being harmed by that idiotic boycott.

Yes, yes, I know, Kosh. All we have to do is to join y'all in your silly boycott and post EXCLUSIVELY on Our Salon and we don't lose either their posts or their comments.

That's like a billionaire saying all you have to do is vote for someone who will reduce his taxes and he'll use his saved money to create jobs. Yeah, right.

And don't give me any bullshit about people still being able to post on OS if they wish to do so - that's not part of the boycott effort. We all pretty much know that anyway. After all, you do not yet, O Glorious Leader, have that much control over people.

I noted with much humour how you so generously stood back and "let" others decide how long the boycott should last. Who TF are YOU to "let" others do anything? You only wanted a fixed time for it to last - you never did care a hoot about what length of time that was. I've been involved in politics since before you were born, young fella, and I've seen dozens of tin pot "leaders" like you come down the pike.

It clearly indicates your total lack of concern for those who don't choose to post on Our Salon and be part of your boycott. Which brings me to they way you love to get hold of one of your straw man arguments and shake it to death. You know perfectly well that I cannot answer your question which implies that I have some ulterior motive for resisting your unethical scheme, because it simply is not so. Or do you think that Big Oil (OS) is paying me to resist your humanitarian efforts to bring clean water ( a better working site) to the villagers (bloggers)?

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Why don't you tell us, openly and honestly, what YOU get out of organizing such a boycott?

If, as you imply, I get something out of not being a part of your boycott, then surely it is fair of me to ask what it is that YOU get out of setting one up?

Your complete dishonesty in implying that I have some undisclosed "reason" to resist your unethical boycott, makes me wonder what it is that YOU are hiding. Why is one little voice - mine - so threatening to you that you have to make up lies about my position and why I hold that position? If you had nothing to hide, why make such a fuss about me not joining you?

Time to come clean, Kosh. What is your REAL motive for setting up a boycott of a site that has never done you any harm? Surely just the fact that a FREE site is having difficulties is not enough for you to organize a boycott of that site. Surely you are a big enough man to just move to another site - as so many others have done - without creating a 'gang' to impose a boycott on posting and commenting on OS. Surely you have no need to try to jump all over one person who says, "No, I don't think such a boycott is ethical and I'll not have any part of it?"

Shall I do what you've done Kosh? Shall I make a few wild guesses about YOUR motives and then demand that you answer to them? Man you tempt me!

;-)
.
Sky... I think perhaps you should allow (one of) the individuals he's referring to who *cannot* migrate (as opposed to "is not inclined to) to speak for herself don't you?

*I* am that individual who *cannot* and I am perfectly competent to speak for myself on the issues at hand. The reality is that I'm not writing much these days so I'm NOT "disturbed" by the "boycott." If I were writing more (actually I am writing a LOT but most of it is either highly technical or I'm busier than a cat in a room full of rocking chairs *teaching* college level courses in Environmental Science so I don't have the INCLINATION to WRITE for fun) and *did not* have the issues with my email address I have so that I could create a blog over there I MIGHT migrate for the duration of the boycott HOWEVER... I do have the issues I have and I'm not writing for fun these days so I'm not bothered. I know how to contact kosh outside of this venue and I know how to contact a few others outside this venue as well so... Inshallah.

Boycott or don't... I don't give an obese rodent's rectum either way. If ya want to take over teaching my ES classes or homeschooling my 11 year old who JUST finished chemotherapy and radiation treatments following surgery to remove a brain tumor you're free to do so just please don't get your panties in a twist over ME being unable to join OurSalon due to an email address which requires me to initiate email contact in order to receive emails. I have got ENOUGH crap on my plate without anyone getting their knickers in a knot over over something I am unable (and unwilling) to change at the moment.

FMR UHB!