I just read a news piece about how Michelle Duggar has been hospitalized for gallstones and blood pressure issues . . .and her 19th child was just delivered via ER c-section (the baby wasn't due until March) Wishing Mom and little one the best.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34379874/ns/today-today_people/
Reading about this twisted my brain in a knot. One question is going off in my head like a strobe light: Even in the healthiest of circumstances, how many children can a woman have, before it becomes a danger to her health? I'm not asking this as a judgment, but as a sincere question.
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On the other hand I had another cousin who is a diabetic and nearly died from having just one kid.
it is a good post and raises valid points
Rated
I don't follow that couple, mostly because I don't care, but has this happened to any of their other kids?
I kind of wonder though, I suspect if she gets pregnant again there will be a lot of talk about how it is abuse and how her husband is using her as nothing more than a walking uterus. However, she may be somewhat like a slightly healthier version of whatever psychological affliction the Octomom suffers from. I would say she kind of has to be somewhat like that. Being pregnant that often for that long has to become something that really gets ingrained into a woman's personality. It may be more that she can't live without it than that her husband wants to keep growing his family.
Or maybe they'll quit. I guess we'll find out.
R
From what I know of the Duggars, all 18 previous children have been born healthy and at or near-term.
J-DeMain: That's what I was thinking, I mean at what point do you stop and realize "this isn't a safe thing" Its a scary thing to face.
Ocular: Wow. :)
Susan: I think my question may be a bit vauge. :)
Jesse: I just wanted to be clear about it. :)
EOC: While I don't wish them any ill will, I think (just from reading the article) that they are (or will be) at a crossroads.
I do not know what percentage of these children suffer long-term disabilities from their prematurity, either. What I heard when my son was a preemie (11 years ago) was that for 24 weekers, there were equal chances for having a child without long-term problems, having a child with a life-long neurologic deficit (e.g., cerebral palsy, neural deafness) or disability, and having the child die.
As to when the number of babies becomes a danger, I think there is no fixed number. I have been told (but can't provide citation) that the placenta can't affix to the same spot in the uterus twice. (Keep in mind that the uterus, when you're not pregnant, is the size of a walnut.) The more children you have, the greater the risk of placental abruption or placenta previa, where the placenta lies between the fetus and the cervix. Placenta previa, in the best case, leads to a C-section. Either condition, however, threatens both the mother and the fetus.
Leeandra: I agree, it does make you think though.
Jane: I think even in the HEALTHIEST situation, our bodies have a limit. I truly wish Michelle nothing but the best and I know having that discussion is not easy.
Laura: I know all too well about preemies, and I sincerely hope and pray this little one makes it. Burying a child is crushing and I wouldn't wish it on ANYONE!
I haven't watched the show, but I can't imagine two adults can adequately parent 15 kids. Putting a 12 year old in charge of a 5 year old is not adequate parenting.
I stopped at giving birth to 3 and I honestly tried to stop at 2.
How many is "too many"? I think it likely is different for each woman. For me... 3 biologically was my limit. Who knows how many is my real limit to raising though? I haven't gotten there yet. Every time that I THINK we are done we wind up with another homeless waif in need of love and a roof over their head. And I just can't deny love to a child.
To add a bit of science/medicine to the comments, apparantly 8 is the record for number of babies to all be carried to live birth. There are reports of 9 babies carried at once, but not all make it to term/birth. More than 9 babies, and none of the babies have thus far survived. So, 9 is apparantly the magic number (this is not my area of expertise, but I found this by searching the scientific/medical lit). ALL of these cases are a result of assisted fertility treatments, and are not naturally-occuring phenomena.
Sandra: I didn't know that, awesome.
Malusinka: I didn't know "5 or more" was considered high risk (just on the number of pregnancies) I'll have to look into that.
Raptor: Oh ROCK ON! Your comment brought tears to my eyes.
Both gallbladder disease and appendicitis are particularly dangerous in pregnant women. Any infection or irritation in the abdominal cavity can trigger labor, which is supposedly what happened in this case.
Premature babies do particularly poorly if they are delivered in the breech position. If a premature breech baby is about to be born, doctors recommend C-section to increase the chances of survival.
Robin: I respect her faith but my gut tells me, this premature birth carries a message and I hope the couple are realistic enough to see it.
MrsGC: Dang!
Stud: Great thoughts. I know in ancient history, women had as many kids as they could afford (if not more), but when you take into account that infant/child mortality was extremely high, so it makes more sense. People also died at much younger ages, so having a large family was important.
Regarding your question, it is interesting to examine the motivation, but considering that the couple doesn't use bc, I'd say they do their thing without worry of pregnancy. :) Then again, I'd say they do it for the same reasons anyone else does: ITS FUN! :)
Sheepdog: LMAO!
Kathy: I agree 100% :)
M26: I have my own questions as well, but the Duggar's choice is theirs to make. I respect that. My first reaction to this news was knee-jerk: I felt a tinge of resentment: I thought she should just stop and enjoy the blessings she already has. Then I had to step out of my "shoes" and I realized that right now, this family needs prayers, not criticism.
Karin: Its interesting, some women snap right back after having kids, some do not. I think genetics plays a roll in that.
Wordssmith: 27-33 pups, . .all I can say is wow.
I would love to see more well made documentaries about families like Mrs. Raptor's - mixed families, chosen families and all of the beautiful types of families that people are creating.
I guess I, too, hope this is her last pregnancy if this indeed is a sign of dangerous pregnancies from now on.
How can that many children be cared for and supported? And, supposedly they have "no debt." Just on the food bill alone, someone's got to have a substantial income to meet the bills. And, I suppose that the older children help care for the younger children.
In the end, I think that some or all of the kids would grow up thinking they were raised by a corporation and not by a mom and dad.
I really hope that there is somebody in official circles where this family lives that checks to see whether life in this family is a good deal less rosy that it's made out to be. The whole think just doesn't add up now.
i don't think you're bashing anyone. these people are already on tv and in the news and we should learn from their experience. i've learned that having 19 babies looks exactly as awful as i'd always imagined.
and i wonder how much their medical bills have been! i've read a healthy birth can cost 25k. if that's so, they've spent nearly half a million dollars just giving birth!
With that mindset she'll keep having kids until the lord calls her home.
moans. Great.
.... [?]!
Yom Kipper!
It's `bout sex!
or,
... {!}?
this is a first!
.... LadyMiko?
John is right!
a first no sex!
... LadyMiko?
Ya doin' okay?
Some lovers need to hock their copper wedding ring at Capita Hell's Sexy Pawn Shop!
You aren't bashing.
Santa drop rummer!
You just wondering.
Slip lubricated Trojans.
If used properly they may help?
I hear rubbers stop pregnancy.
Latex may cause penile itches.
Allergic reaction increases sex?
Condoms are free in DC VAMC.
Buy rubber tires for your truck?
No wear a wedding rings in DC.
Politico's will arrange mugging.
Politicians steal wedding rings,
gold tooth, and smoke coke-crack.
My worry? The children offspring?
The children have Politician Pops.
They will be the next capital gangs.
They will run for political position.
That's a inbred nepotism problem!
Isn't that what we got now? clones!
bad DNA, Oy, worst than? vile thug!
I'd rather You and Robin report news.
Fox news? Listen, and die from plague.
Fox anchors look like mannequin corpse.
It's these bible beaters and their 'quiver-full' mass reproduction scheme that frightens me for the future of this country. If anyone has seen 'Idiocracy', then you can substitute the idiots for the 'religious' brain washed money puppets.
Jim Bob Dugger and his 'holy machismo' are more important that the health of his wife. I'd think that having that many children should be spouse abuse and buy him the needle but to folks in that neck of the swamp, having a bible beating bunch of programmed automatons is a sign of 'yer manhood'... Last I heard too, they were on public assistance and taking donations. The teevee show was a lifeline thrown out to help save them.
If intelligent people don't start picking up the slack, this country is going to be overrun by a herd of home schooled, mouth breathing, self-righteous fire and brimstone war mongering taliban-esque freaks... There would be a crusade a week with them in charge. Just imagine it... =8-O
The Duggers, in my mind are just as stupid and dangerous as the infamous 'Octomom'. They are turning their lives into a circus sideshow and really making the case (for me at least) that religious totalitarianism is wrong no matter who does it.
Sure, she had a say (I'd hope. Some of these 'religious' cultist groups condone raping your wife for sex and procreation) but that still doesn't make it right. You have to believe that her vagina and cervix are probabl;y so stretched out that you could drive a VW Beetle up there. She is urine and fecal incontinent by now. She probably has little to any muscle tone in her uterus and abdominal wall. Her breasts are probably trashed too.
I mean, imagine the toll that 19 births would have on someone! It's cruel and inhumane punishment. I mean gosh, someone might like to hit themselves in the head with a 2x4 20 times a day but someone steps in at some point and stops it...
Where are the doctors? Bring them out and have them explain why they were unsuccessful at getting them to use birth control! Get them in court to explain, along with the twisted husband (an ex-state politician) and make them explain what the hell went wrong! It's spouse abuse! Who pays not that the 19th kid is likely a vegetable? The state? I'd be a teabagger just to tell them 'NO!'... (OK, maybe I'm ranting but holy cow, this is a train wreck. When does common sense ( that 'God' ironically gave most of us) enter into the equation? Does it?
Still, though, a diseased gall bladder is a serious matter even when you're not pregnant. Hopefully Michelle and Duggar #19 will come through this happy and healthy.
In their religious Jewish circle, it's not uncommon to meet women with 13 children, although many have only 2 or 3, maybe 5. And they are also bemused by the concept of 19 going for more and more.
For the record, one of my best friends, a Catholic, is herself the oldest of 10. Religion can be a powerful motivator. So can personality and temperament. I don't know the medical answer, but the Duggars hyper-procreation twists my brain too.
Aim: Hey, what an idea! All familes are real, regardless of how they are created. However, I definatly want to see domestic adoption made easier. :)
Elle: Cancer? Oh I'm so sorry.
Robin: Thank you for the encouragment, this is a great discussion.
Steve: “I am suspicious that there is a lot of things going on with this family that no one knows about. And, the question of whether a woman can bear 19 (or more) children may NOT be the most significant question. “
Perhaps, with the editing and such, there most likely is a lot that the public is not privy to.
“How can that many children be cared for and supported? And, supposedly they have "no debt." Just on the food bill alone, someone's got to have a substantial income to meet the bills. And, I suppose that the older children help care for the younger children. In the end, I think that some or all of the kids would grow up thinking they were raised by a corporation and not by a mom and dad. I really hope that there is somebody in official circles where this family lives that checks to see whether life in this family is a good deal less rosy that it's made out to be. The whole think just doesn't add up now.”
That is a more important question, but then it slides into whether or not there should be limits, etc. From what I’ve read and seen, the Duggars do have a support group of friends and family that helps out a lot. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, I may not agree with how many children they have (for various reason), but I cannot just assume something fishy is going on.
Strangly: I didn't even think of the medical cost, damn!
Colbot: Or until Menopause.
Trig: The EP shocked me, dang. :)
Art: Dang.
Goznoid: They are debt free and able to hold their own. Honestly, I think the recent events will have both Jim and Michelle taking a hard look at where they are in their life.
And what can the public really do? This isn't China and I hope for the sake of EVERYONE, this country never goes down that road. Like I said, I don't agree with individuals having "kid after kid because they can" but that doesn't mean that I would want the STATE stepping in and telling people what they can do with their bodies.
Sally: Hey, if your SIL is happy, rock on!
Lin: Do you know what episode that was? I agree though, that's how we came to our decision, my health was more important then having a child (biologically anyway)
I live in an area of Amish families; the Amish are actually one of the fastest growing (percentage wise) populations in this country, because they also welcome as many children as come, and do make use of modern medical care.
I struggle with the patriarchy/submission/body stretching throwback that this philosophy and practice evidences. But I am less bothered by a cultural subset like the Amish, who really exhibit the same belief structure. I am also defensive and offended when traditional families look askance at my or friends' "alternative lifestyles." No easy conclusions.
If Michelle Duggar is in her mid-40s, then she will probably stop being fertile soon.
Grand-Multiparas (women who've given birth to 5 or more kids) have a much higher risk of complications in pregnancy leading to premature, induced births, which is exactly what happened to Michelle Duggar.
As a side point, I'm not entirely sure that a middle child in such a big family, a kid who's been changing diapers since he/she was 8, is necessarily going to sign up for the same lifestyle. Look at all the Catholics who abandoned the idea of large families. The church's acceptance of it came after millions of Catholics ignored the teachings of their church and started limiting their family size. Most of these people grew up in large families.
It's hard to imagine how sheltered/hermitized adults would have to be to not figure out that birth control is readily available, safe, easy to use and effective.
Rather than being seen as a virile man, Jim Bob Dugger should be seen as an ignorant cave man throwback to the time when men treated women as property and keeping them 'barefoot and pregnant' was their only purpose in a man's life.
I take the idea that they are glorified with their own teevee show highly objectionable. This kind of religious persecution of women shouldn't be glorified on the teevee. It's sick and misogynistic and should be seen right up there with the Saudi Arabian 'religious police' flogging women for exercising their right to control their own lives.
The Duggers should be seen as an example of what happens when 'religious' intolerance of women gets out of control, not some kind of national hero's for having so many kids.
I feel for the kids. I honestly do. Their parent's drive to please their 'god' is a obsessive-compulsive disorder fueled by the limelight of their 'fame'. What's next? A teevee show about spouse abusers and how good they are? There are 'religious' groups that back a man using what ammounts to corporal punishment on their wives and who control their every minute of the day. Isn't that the same thing as the Duggers?
And yes, the every sperm is sacred sketch does pop into my head. Hell, they could have saved a lot of money if he just spanked the monkey instead of jumping his wife!
Of course, in those days, women who weren't that hardy died somewhere along the way, in pregnancy, childbirth or soon after. Those that survived to keep having babies like my grandmother obviously had some strong genes. Some of her sons had more than 10 kids, but interestingly, none of her daughters went above 4 kids, even though BC wasn't an option for them (as Catholics, not to mention limited access and options when they were in childbearing years). I guess they didn't want their mother's life!
Good piece Miko.
Congrats. :-)
xoxo
RATED
Gonziod: You make a vaild point, but in the cases of foot binding and FGM, those little girls have no choice in what happenes to their bodies. Women like Mrs Duggar are adults: I recall on an interview on GMA (when she was carrying #18) her husband clarely stated that he would leave the question of "more" up to Michelle (whether that was the honest answer or just "speaking to the camera" IDK) so IF that is the case, she allows herself to continue to get pupped. It takes TWO to get pregnant.
I don't see Jim Duggar as "virile" . . ANYONE who has enough sex without contraception will father children and many of them at that. :)
After some reflection, I wonder what kind of values this is teaching their children (and I'm not refering to their Christain faith) I'm talking about the kind of mindset the children have, after seeing their mother pupped time and time again. Are their daughters being taught the same thing, that the BEST they can do with themselves is exhaust their bodies having children? What about their sons? Are they being taught to respect women, that they are more then the sum of their parts? What about how they see themselves?
Regarding submission, I think there are varying degrees of it (the most extreme being truly ABUSIVE) I have Christain friends and we have discussed this very thing. From what I gathered, its not about "repressing and controling women", its more about acknowledging each other in the relationship and giving to and of each other selflessly. Ironically,the Bible also says men should be submissive to their wives. In the end, it depends on interpetation. Like I said, there are some to take it literally and that is where abuse can raise its head: there is no justification for that. IMHO. :)
SilkStone: Hey,great comment,thanks! :)
Blue-Sama: Hey love, :) Thanks!
And 19 is too many. Can Americans ever appear not to be greedy and glutinous and gratuitous in everything they do? It's like supersizing birth...disgusting.
My feeling is to each their own, as long as they can feed and support their family it does not matter to me how many kids they have. We have friends with 5-8 kids and they are happy and can support them. I would say the average home school family has 3-4 children compared to the 0-2 children which has become the norm in America.
Of course the average Mary Pride follower does not have their own reality show with produce endorsements to build a large custom home made for 20 kids. Like so much on TV it is not real.
I have a cousin who has seven children, each of them delivered by C-section. She and her husband don't believe in birth control. Her husband was once boasting of his "virility" (at a family gathering) he then turns to me (I have only one child) and asks: What's wrong?
I'm outraged both by my cousin's situation (I know, seven is maybe not too horrible, but each time a C-section DOES seem horrible to me.) and by how passive-seeming she is ...
It will be interesting to see now that there have been pregnancy complications if she gets pregnant again. It would seem to me to be the most selfish, self centered, irresponsible action she could take. Her children deserve a mother who does her best to stay around for them and the risk of having another extremely premature baby would most likely increase. Intentionally starting a life that has such a risk for suffering(and yes, all that medical intervention would be painful) would be in my mind, well sinful.
However what IS true is that until fairly modern times, women did indeed get pregnant every year and given their lifespan, this meant around 18-20 pregnancies. (Remember puberty started somewhat later than today and menopause somewhat earlier, and most people were dead before 50.) The general rule was that 1 in 5 pregnancies ended in miscarriage, another 1/4 were stillborn or died shortly after birth and another 25% died in childhood (of what we would call easily preventable illness, or accidents). Even though women got pregnant a lot, the average family size was typically 5 or 6, because most children DIED.
It was also not unusual for a woman to have 5 kids, then a plague comes through town or the flu or dysentary and boom -- all your children die. And you start over, if you are young enough. Certainly some families exceed this number -- luck or good genes -- but then, unless they were wealthy, a large number of kids meant food shortages, hunger, and neglect.
This was the lot of human beings and women in particular for most of human history, and we HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS, because NOBODY ALIVE TODAY can possibly remember it -- not even our grandmothers could have told it to us. Because by the late 19th century there were hospitals and ether and (some) birth control, and people began to be able to limit the size of their families AND even more importantly, advances in medical care and improved nutrition mean that they could reasonably expect MOST OF THEIR CHILDREN TO SURVIVE.
This is a huge, vast change in the human condition, and we are guilty of cavalierly forgetting it. You can only decently and humanely produce a large number of children IF YOU ALSO ACCEPT that MOST OF THEM WILL DIE. Otherwise, it is immoral abuse -- of your body, of your community, of the planet. It is also abuse of your older children, as you neglect them both emotionally and financially, because NOBODY can give attention to 19 children -- sorry, it is impossible.
The Duggar's (along with the even guiltier Octomom) are particuarly revolting because they don't work and they obtain money to ply this madness and self-aggrandizement through phony "church status", handouts, charity, and despicable TV show promoting this all as a freak show. Neither adult Duggar works at a job, nor do they appear to have any means of support short of essentially begging and/or living off the government. YOU AND I are supporting the Duggar clan, with our taxes and their absurd tax breaks (where in fact, they should be PENALIZED).
Obviously ego and grandiosity and absurd religious devotion...some kind of OCD and needless to say, NARCISSISM are playing big, big roles here.
As to how many pregnancies it would take to harm your body: obviously varies a lot, genes and health and age play a role. But most any OB-GYN would tell you to take a break of two years between pregnancies, especially mutiples, to let your uterus heal. (In the olden days, this might have been accomplished by long breast feeding and/or abstinence.) After something like 5-6 pregnancies, a woman is at high risk for uterine or bladder prolapse, which is very painful. That's not even considering simple, pure exhaustion.
Again, in the past, it was also common for women to die from complications of pregnancy -- simple stuff, like dying of dehydration because you have morning sickness. Pre-eclampsia or gestational diabetes would do you in, or your baby, or both. And each delivery was an occasion for prayer, because it was a crap shoot if you or the infant would even survive -- death among young mothers was commonplace and it is immortalized in our heritage of fairy tales, where nearly every story has a stepmother in it. There was an excellent chance that your children would be raised by someone else (and as such, likely mistreated).
Of course, today this is a very minute risk and Mrs. Duggar will be fine. Fine enough to carry on with the circus.
If we stopped giving these sorts of people money and gifts and free houses, they would stop dropping babies all over like they were cats having multiple litters. Let's be honest -- even the Octomom has admitted her desire for fame and a TV series.
When it doesn't pay money, and people like Jim Bob Duggar have to get a real job, and come home after a hard day at work, and actually do the real work of caring for 21 people on an average salary -- in an ordinary three bedroom house -- and no TV or fame or money, you will see this far less often, and very likely see many of the children take by foster care agencies, due to the neglect and filth that occurs when money and gifts and appliances and toys are not pouring in the windows of the free house.
Todd: I also think to each their own, but at some point "health" should trump fertillity. :)
Ginseng: I can relate to the family BS. C-sections are not fun, but perhaps your cousin had a medical concern that made that option safer?
Liberal: I agree with the fact that the children DESERVE a healthy mother.
YB: They were doing this well before the TV Show and from what I have been reading, they are far from alone.
Laurel: I believe the most children ever born to a single woman was 69 during the 1700's (I'll do some research to see if it has any merit) Yes, history shows us that chilfbearing was an unkind thing to women and babies, that has been true until recently (at least in developed parts of the world)
From what I know,the Duggars are self supporting, through investments and rental properties. Against my initial thought, not to watch the show, I watched several episodes on youtube and the children seem healthy and well adjusted, but overall, they seem extremely "sheltered" and I can see where some rebellion may pop up in the future. The more they try to protect their kids from the "evil ungodly world" (that is the impression I get, of what they think of people who don't share their POV) the more these kids will rebel, when they do get older.
That being said, a practical limit should be one which limits the number of children to a total the woman can financially and/or emotionally afford to handle.
There are certainly enough children around suffering from a lack of either of those attributes, it's time to break that chain.
Jerryw
www.boskolives.wordpress.com
And, I have never done anything that would intentionally give them money, but I am sure I have bought products from companies that do so.
It is 69 Kids!
The world record for having the most number of children officially recorded is 69 by the first of two wives of Feodor Vassilyev (1707-1782), a peasant from Shuya, 150 miles east of Moscow. In 27 confinements, she gave birth to 16 pairs of twins, seven sets of triplets and four sets of quadruplets. The children were born between 1725-1765.
From http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070803143109AAvNdah (faster than finding the Guinness link...)
Personally I think as soon as any celebrity and especially TV become involved the freak show is soon to follow. TV and reasoning have little in common. Duggar's may have started out just to fill their quiver, but add the media attention and TV show and you have fortune and fame as a new motivator. And it is a motivator that usually ends up with a lot of lives ruined.
Victoria had a lot of kids too--but Michelle Duggar has her beat by a wide margin.
But an even better question is should we have children that we can't financially, emotional, or physically take care of??? It seems like the Duggar family is a very loving one, but that's not always the case with other families who continue to expand their families...