Empathy Quotient Test - Are You Empathetic?
The single most valuable lesson I learned in life was taught by my eighth grade teacher, Sister Mary Laurentia. The first day of classes that year, she called us to attention with the following message:
"I have only one thing that I want to teach you this year. (A dramatic pause followed to be sure she had our attention.) Before I send you off to high school, I want to make certain that you understand the meaning of the word empathy."
In response to our quizzical looks, she explained that the basic meaning of the word empathy was to have the ability to stand in another person's shoes. (Again, a pause to allow this visual to sink in.) "I want you to learn to think about how another person might feel in response to your words or actions. Then, after you have taken the extra time to give the other person's reaction enough thought, you must learn to adjust your behavior accordingly before speaking or acting", taught the good sister.
She went on: "I believe that when you know how to empathize with others, you will be able to succeed with just about anything that life might bring your way. "
Throughout that year, I pondered her original message and often wondered: Why would ONE word be so important to her? I did not know until many years later that she was challenging us to leap beyond the normal sequence of child development She wanted us to learn to act and think as a young adult, rather than as a self-centered teenager.
Along with other eight grade subject matter, Sister Mary Laurentia endeavored to help us understand and live according to the single English word that best summarized the Golden Rule as it was given to us by her Savior: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
Although we were in Catholic school, she did not choose to emphasize the biblical explanation of the concept. The good sister taught us a powerful societally and morally oriented word, one whose definition transcends any faith or religion based tenet. This is a term that we could voice or employ in any person's company, everywhere in the entire world, throughout our lives. Her goal was to teach us to stand in
another' s shoes long enough to imagine how they might think and feel. She gave to us an invaluable gift, for which I have been ever grateful and appreciative.
It seems that the vast majority of our political leaders have not been blessed to learn the lessons of empathy. Society would benefit if each of us were to strive to strengthen our ability to empathize. In case you would like to measure your own abilities, I have located a test with which to test our ability to empathize:
Empathy Quotient Test (click on link for test)
"Moral imagination is the capacity to empathize with others, i.e., not just to feel for oneself, but to feel with and for others. This is something that education ought to cultivate and that citizens ought to bring to politics. " --McCollough 1992
During his recent appearance with Rick Warren, Obama revealed the roots of his ability to empathize as summarized by Joan Walsh:
"My favorite answer from Obama that night (sue me) was when he talked about his mother being disappointed when he wasn't kind to others. I know his mother supposedly wasn't a 'practicing' Christian, but that's the way I was raised too (by my devout Irish Catholic parents): the measure of your moral value resides in being kind to others"
On the other hand, former prisoner-of-war John McCain seemed capable of putting his prinicples on the shelf when he voted against a ban on torture earlier this year. Of all things that John McCain has said and done, I struggle with this one the most. Does John McCain have an inherent ability to empathize with others, especially on an issue such as torture, where his own personal experience would suggest that he should never want another person, friend or foe, to suffer what he did?
Update: This post was originally printed prior to the 2008 election. As we struggle toward health care reform, we see that the same issues with our current batch of elected officials confound all reason and logic. As always with difficult societal issues, the ability to empathize would serve humanity at this point in time.
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Maybe I am too empathetic but since this concept has been ingrained in me since young adulthood, I pose the following question:
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Comments
I had not thought of empathy in that context. An elite preppy who was a beer drinker, was trying to get the population to see him as a bud. To me empathy is more about the candidates listening to the representatives of the middle class, and understanding that things are really bad economically just now. Maybe I need to rephrase that one a little bit...
"Don't tell me I don't love you. I'll break every bone in your body." W. C. Fields
And although I think I am more hypersensitive than empathetic, I scored 70.
BTW, the Golden Rule (she said, quietly) is not really "Biblical." You can search a thousand translations of the Christian Bible and you won't find the words "Golden Rule" in there. Even the most common phrasing, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," isn't specifically biblical. (I've looked it up in earnest. Story follows.)
I say this only because there seems to be a widespread misconception that the 'Golden Rule' is exclusively Christian. It is not. It's one formulation of perhaps the Ur Ethical Principal, shared among countless religious and philosophical systems--The Ethic of Reciprocity. Wikipedia has a great article thereon.
And the only reason I know this is...oh, just gah.
At work, we recently introduced a series of educational modules on cultural practices, beliefs, diet restrictions, etc. In the final paragraph of 18 pages emphasizing awareness of other cultures, the author suggests that doing unto others as you want done unto you isn't necessarily going to cut it. (I'd love bacon for breakfast; an observant Jew would not. Ipso facto, the "Golden Rule" isn't entirely sufficient) We asked them to consider the Platinum Rule--Do unto others as THEY want done unto them.
A Christian wrote an indignant letter to the HR director, in a complete dither that a cultural sensitivity module could be so insensitive as to ask her, as a Christian, to rewrite the INERRANT WORD OF GOD in the BIBLE! And how DARE we ask her to "reject Biblical teachings!?"
The worst part was when HR apologized to her and told her she wouldn't have to read any more of those big, bad cultural modules.
Anyway. Is it wrong of me, with such a high empathy score, to have wanted to hit somebody right about then?
So I made a conscious decision to stop being an asshole. I actually went to a therapist, plopped down, and said, I need to stop being such an asshole. I then confessed a half dozen thoughts and deeds that no other human being had ever been privvy to. Wow was that hard. It's gotten easier, though.
However, not only is is ascribed to the red text (as in what came out of Jesus' mouth) it is an interesting distillation of everything else in the Bible:
Matthew 7: 12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
So those 11 words can be substituted for most of the Old Testament it appears.
- Proverb
Christian Gospels Proverb, 100
OK, VR, you about killed me when you wrote that it wasn't Biblical -- I grew up with that stuff.... Apparently, it came from Proverbs. Maybe not "strictly" Biblical, but of the Bible?
I found this for you, however, for your HR buddies:
"Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), Man and Superman (1903), Maxims for Revolutionists "
Sandra: Thank you for sharing on that. If I may be so bold, I think you have become quite a bit more empathetic in your comments since we first met her at OS. Since you are aiming for that, I imagine that you should take this in the spirit that it is being offered -- a compliment. :)
I scored a 38, but I think I'm way more empathic than that...I was the only kid at St Margaret's Catholic School that felt terrible that Dennis was teased so mercilessly because he had a large oddly shaped head. And that's just one example! I am nice...mostly.
By the way, the eye of TS Fay based over my head for most of the day today. We had lots of wind, but even more rain. I beleive now with an active rainy season, and now all this tropical storm rain, that our serious drought may be just about officially over...
I don't think candidates, well, actually, leaders should lead from empathy, it could cloud their ability to impartially view all sides and make tough decisions. But they need to have empathy to refrain from being Mau or Stalin or Hitler.
Nice blend of quiz and current events, Lisa, the Sisters would be proud. :)
I came across some interesting sites while I was trying to "borrow" a logo. I saw the quiz, and thought I would emulate my friend, Sally, just this one time. ;)
Also, I am curious about this empathy thing, as it seems there are a LOT of empathetic people hanging out at OS> So, even though I love Tina Fey, is was being home during the Fay storm and purusing the Internet that brought us all together tonight to empathetically share our levels of empathy.
Barry, are you SURE you don't know him??? Black Bart -- are you affiliated with anyone else here at OS -- Barry wants to adopt you.;)
@ Procopius - One needn't be 'elitist' just because one is of the elite. Sorry to split hairs! But I think you're right, it is nonsense that people elect people on likeability on a one-to-one basis. Or else you get politicians saying utter rubbish--like a certain conservative British politician touting his pint-chugging qualities to make him sound chummy, but instead ended up backfiring miserably.
@ lalucas - Does the middle class have a monopoly on empathy-satisfaction? What about the growing under/lower class we Americans seem to ignore so gingerly?
@ Verbal Remedy - I'm glad you called everyone out on the 'Golden Rule'. Keen effort! :-) I would hasten to add my unease at the 'Golden Rule', as it's rather inconvenient and unrealistic. (Would I REALLY want my neighbours to do to me what they sometimes, foolishly, do to themselves?) I guess I'm more privy to the 'harm principle', with significant modifications, as an ordering principle for societies.
@ J.P. - Wickedly incisive...a hearty dose of agreement from my side.
And the principle occurs several places in the Bible. From the Wiki:
Christianity
Within Christian circles, the ethic of reciprocity is often called the "Golden Rule". Christianity adopted the ethic from two edicts, found in Leviticus 19:18 ("Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.") and Leviticus 19:34 ("But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God"). Crucially, Leviticus 19:34 universalizes the edict of Leviticus 19:18 from "one of your people" to all of humankind.
Several passages in the New Testament quote Jesus of Nazareth espousing the ethic of reciprocity, including the following:
Matthew 7:12
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
Luke 6:31
"Just as you want others to do for you, do the same for them."
Luke 10:25-28
25 Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. ‘Teacher,’ he said, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’
26He said to him, ‘What is written in the law? What do you read there?’
27He answered, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.’
28And he said to him, ‘You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.’
Jesus then proceeds to tell the parable of the Good Samaritan, making it clear that "your neighbour"
Great post, Lisa. Something (empathy) I must keep in mind with my reading class from hell. I'll be writing about them later in the week - if I survive that long (or, alternatively, if they do!).
Thank you for writing. I have been reading your comments on other posts and find them very interesting and insightful.
Actually, I am more worried about the working poor, than I am about any class at the moment. Most of them have been just hanging in by a thread -- both of my sister=in-laws fit that category, as well as my own sister. They are suffering.
I don't believe that anyone in the government has had to consider working out on behalf of a single mom or a single person a household budget to see just how much the increase in gasoline prices have hit their bottom line. With no corresponding increase in pay to offset ANYof it, their food, utilities and transportation are all more expensive. God save them if they are on medications, which all of them are.
So, SPECIFALLY those earning less than $40,000 per year, but all of us earning less than $150,000 a year. Can any politician empathize with this group? Due to his early background, I would like to place my money on Obama. I don't know, though, hence my question.
I was thinking of you, Amy and Olga when I wrote this, knowing you were all going back into the fray of the classrooms soon.
So many of my teachers had a huge impact on my life, as I am sure you are having on your students. I saw that one of them posted in your comments section -- that must have made you feel really good?! Hang in there, this is just the beginning!!
To be honest, sometimes I find blogging or posting a break in a way from being constantly conscientious about remaining vigilant to empathy.
Venting has its purpose; a kind of emptying out of all the emotions, negative and positive to get back to a place of empathy.
Only point being, the Tanakh does not hold copyright on the idea of "Don't like it, don't do it."
But I empathize with all of you...
;-)
Absolutely! That is part of why I have stayed at OS, for venting and for mental stimulation, or some combination of the two.
Some one oir group must have decided to call it that. Actually, it is part of the ethical code of Realtors as well, so Christianity CERTAINLY has no full claim on the idea. :)
We are all naughty, guilt-ridden, attuned to the whip and penance smartypants. Plus the sight of plaid skirts is a proven incentive towards social progressiveness.
Me? St. Mary's, Biddeford, Maine.
My other motto is: Try to always sell only the homes, that you would be happy to have to resell when it is your own listing. That way, it is a win/win in the long run. :)
Joan is our fearless leader, but I came here shortly after starting to read her column (big Glenn Greenwald fan). But for Catholics and ex-Catholics:
Alexandria, sierrasong, Monsieur Chariot, sandra miller (ex), oh shoot, it is after midnight and I cannot think. But they will remind me if they see this. There is a HUGE portion of OS writers, however, that come here with that faith as their first moral base. I imagine that means we are either very good or very bad...or both on the proper occassion!
Dominican, San Rafael, California
So there.
Sister Mary Laurentia and all my grade school teachers were also Dominican, ss.
(just ask the 8th grade boys in my reading class this year...to be continued...)
Also not sure I agreed with all the tests' questions. After all, you can be sympathetic and empathetic and still believe someone is making a mistake. I also no longer let people drag me into their problems too intimately. That's a bad idea. It's actually harder to be empathetic if you interfere in certain kinds of problems. Do you know what I mean?
Does that make any sense? I think I need to go to bed...
@or Yes, absolutely. I thought some of the questions were a little odd, but it seems it was constructed to "test" for empathy in multiple areas of interaction. I think standing in someone's shoes does not always mean empowering them to continue to do what they are doing. So, yes, I get what you are saying!
I don't have to be empathetic. I'm fabulous.
Tolerance is actually a good side subject for this discussion.
Arlene: On the other hand, since you are good at listening, you have to be empathetic, tolerant and then one other trait to write the balanced advice you give. So, perhaps the candidates need to be empathetic, but then possess the ability to look at an issue from one than one position, weigh the options, and strive for balance.
So, perhaps there are at least two more steps that need happen in the minds of those shaping our society: Developing a Tolerant Outlook and Achieving Balance?
Verbal - I think the concept of the Platinum Rule is fantastic. I'm going to start applying that to my daily life. I would love to read the 18 page educational paper if that's ever a possibility.
My billing company understands that if a patient has ANY need to reduce or even skip their payment, that the company is to write it off, no questions asked. I think it's illegal for me to do that - how ridiculous is a law like that?
That's why I noted on the test that I don't always follow the law.
Great post, Lisa.
I am so glad, however, to see others who think "Do unto others..." is pretty much all you need if you want the world to be a better place. The key is in not being overly literal. It isn't "bacon for me, so bacon for you," but rather "I am having what I want for breakfast, and I wish for you your favorite breakfast food."
Susan, I love this: ""I am having what I want for breakfast, and I wish for you your favorite breakfast food." Yes, that is the spirit of my thinking and meant to be the crux of my post.
Wouldn't our world be just like heaven if we could have everything we need at the expense of no one? I have never been one to delight in obtaining something for my own personal gain to the extreme detriment of another. The result is that some times my gains are diminished on behalf of others in an effort to strive for the most equitable solution. I figure that most times, it all works out for the best in the long run!
But I don't read social cues well and I think that destroyed my score.
I guess I'm just an average slob.
In my case, I called myself a "cheerful Atheist/Non-Theist" from 1987-to late 2003/early 2004....My return to a sense of faith/spirituality(and yes--enjoyment of the culture of Catholicism) has been a long one; I'll save that story for a future post.
Thanks again for YOUR thought-filled, thoughtful post! Peace.
Another catholic school dropout - Christian Brothers (the wine, not the Order.)
And speaking of empathy from the White House, consider this from George Bush the elder: "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." Spoken like a true Mullah.
Wayne, OK, maybe the Sappiness Test, maybe...I'll give you a little on that one. Now for George Senior:
His family is the reason for this post. I don't think there is living or dead a LESS EMPATHETIC President of the US than GWB. Even his dad would get only second or third billing in that category for what I understand of Presidential history over the past 50 years.
Sandra, I doubt you are here, but check this: ""I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." There are quite a few bloggers that have proclaimed that they are aetheists. I imagine a rant will eventually appear on OS about this matter. Shame on Senior...isn't he at least a little embarrassed for his son's legacy as a faux Christian, anti-Constitution Supporting Pseudo Patriot?! Ouchie...that's a hell of a label!
However, I also grew up in a military family, not just a Catholic one, and although that might not seem a natural breeding ground for empathy, in my case it had some of that effect. Essentially, as the oldest of a large brood of an enlisted man, my/our life was often very close to being part of the working poor, with the added "grace" that your sacrifices were all for the greater good (i.e., winning the Cold War.)
A short survey on birth order might also be revealing.
[72]
Roger (looks like I was late for the test!)
Actually, VR, I wish you or Sandra or ktm would write about a Catholic transition to atheism. I don't blame God for the short-comings of the man-made church. I would probably be considered more agnostic, or tend toward Unitarianism than no belief in God. As I have written elsewhere, I believe there is One God, or One Creator, and that all faiths worship the same God with their own traditions and societal slant. So, what faith is that? I really don't know as I have not sought a label. I will take one though if someone wants to give one.
Chicago Guy, I know you are an empathetic man -- and never to late to any of my "test" parties -- they go on in myhead 24/7! :) I can't remember Individuation, but I think that was one of my chosen ones as well.
Thanks, all for sharing. This thread has been very enjoyable for me -- hopefully for all of you as well!
Given that the "right" answers for empathy are obvious, question by question, I tend to think this is more an exercise for finding out if you're sympathetic to being empathetic. ;-)
Oh. 49.
I appear to be low man on the totem pole at 27 - but it's not like I care what you guys think, besides T&D has the Seattle empathy market cornered ;-).
Well, Jeff, I give you credit for answering truthfully, then. I thought the correct answers were pretty self-evident also, but being only 18% evil, I didn't want to cheat on my own test! :)
John, you were so empathetic to John Edwards with your lovely post, and in the way you wrote it. I thought that showed a very sensitive side! As I told Skeptic, however, it is just a test and was meant only to be a fun way to start thinking about the topic.
Thanks, guys, for sharing your results!
(I'm a little grumpy. She left me in the old ape's walker with old bacon.)
FT -- It is NOT nice to call T&D an ape, unless you are very close to her and like an occasional beating, well, OK, a yank of the hair...
Dim memories of catechism days remind me that the doctrine of "invincible ignorance" applies. Only those who have been exposed to Catholic teaching and turned their back on it are damned, others can achieve salvation after a suitable time in Purgatory. (Or is it Limbo?)
At any rate -- very thought-provoking. I worry that I'm getting less empathetic -- but I'm trying to stay positive!
Amy, I am sure you are doing great. I wanted you to read the post because I know you have a positive effect on your students, too. I just wanted to let you know that people are effected in ways that sometimes their teachers never really know. Hang in!
Thanks for writing. The test has been opening -- maybe OS did put it on overload...! ;)
Lisa - well, I'm back and boy I hate reading stuff like that (understanding you are just the messenger...). We've only been one nation "under God" since the 50s, and McCarthyism, that lovely ode to principled American democracy.
Unbelievable that anyone can mouth such crap. But hey....can I get a refund on my taxes if I'm not a citizen.
But I won't blame Jr.s faults on Sr. Jr. is grown up and making his own decisions, and certainly the acorn can roll very far from the tree. Some of my worst childhood enemies had really nice parents w/ no idea at all what kind of monsters they'd raised. Not all values are instilled by parents.
Actually, I have some pretty strong feelings about the orchestration of the Bush family, their minions and Yale connections, to get the entire family into political positions that would allow them to retake the White House. Certainly, with Jeb, the acorn did not fall far from the tree.
From what I understand about Jeb from those that have worked with him, he is just like George == will brook no criticism, or take any advice. I don't like the lot of them, and I really despair of having four more years of the same. Hopefully, saner heads will prevail and not allow more of this craziness. We can only hope!
Actually I'm not sure if I have a low amount of empathy, or the attention span of a gnat. Wait a sec, something shiny just rolled by ...
But atheist -- a total disbelief in God? Was it the harshness of the God -- an aversion to the concept of hell? Knowing that by age 18 or at least by age 25, we were pretty much doomed to hell or a long time in purgatory? I am waiting for one of ya'll to write on the topic as I have thought about it for weeks and cannot understand the pattern here at OS. ktm, help me???
Confession, I am apparently completely average in this regard - 47.
Obviously, you are able to empathize -- you felt strongly enough about him to save your friend's future bride? ;) :) Thanks!
None of the above. I just decided to go with reason over blind faith. The utter BSness of church doctrine, the bible and all other "holy" books I've come in contact with provided added inpetus.
Also "I didn't like the music at the new church..."
That's the worst part of being an atheist - we don't have a choir.
Actually, I think I'm more empathetic now than I ever have been despite the 34 score on that damn test.
I did 11 years of Catholic schooling. I was a full-fledged Catholic. Then I started questioning in my teens. I declined to get confirmed at 17 due to my doubts; raising a bit of a stir. I spent most the next decade as an "agnostic." In the last few years I've embraced the term "atheist."
Perhaps I'll write a lengthy post on it sometime. I suspect my journey was similar to what Sandra described for herself.
It seems like there is a disproportionate number of "cradle Catholics" on OS. It also seems like a rather large number of atheists. I'm not accustomed to being around so many of my godless brethren! And *most* of them nicer and more empathetic than me! (I'm used to encountering the types of atheists I don't like to associate with.)
I rejected Catholicism before I determined that I really didn't have a use for any god at all. We were expected to repeat the catechism without question - don't think just believe. Any inconsistencies in dogma were dismissed as "Mysteries", again don't question, just accept. Well, I found out why we weren't allowed to question - once you do the whole thing starts to unravel and I began to see the church, and Christianity in general, as the remains of a system used to keep the serfs in line and one still used as a political stick.
My lack of interest in any god (see - I'm not even a good atheist, I don't really even not believe) is essentially a result of Occam's Razor, I just don't see the need for one. I just don't see any evidence for one (or many). I just try to be a decent human because I think it's what I should do, not because I fear any eternal punishment or need to be bribed with an eternal reward. I'm not saying that that's the only reason why believers try to be decent, I'm just saying that I don't find those reasons persuasive.
Of course I could be wrong, so the rest of you carry on as you see fit, just don't expect me to think that someone's religious beliefs are anymore untouchable than their political beliefs.
Yet, we comment.
I think that we can't help but wonder about the big things. Here in the semi-officially Christian US of A we are impacted by religion every day, whether we have one or not, therefore I feel free to comment on it. Especially in an election year when, as usual, one candidate doesn't seem to be quite Christian enough for some.
For me though, why I'm here isn't something that I'm particularly interested in - I accept myself as a fait acompli without need of a reason or context. I just try not to make a pain in the ass of myself. I kind of find myself in a bit sympathy with Ayn Rand on the point of what a pity it is that you'll all cease to exist once I die. No, I'm not really that self-centered, I just find it an amusing concept, I'm sure that everything will continue once I'm dust - just without me.
I have indeed had my "lack of interest" interpreted as a "lack of respect". This is not entirely incorrect in the sense that while I do absolutely maintain that others have an absolute right to hold whatever religious beliefs make their socks roll up and down, I also hold that I have an equally absolute right to question and even poke fun. Gee, three "absolute"s in one sentence, I'm not usually so cocksure.
BTW - the "make fun of" part is reserved for proselytizers who continue their sales pitch once I politely tell them I'm not buying what they're selling.
The trouble I have with the empathy thing is that George Bush is supposed to be the guy who we all would most like to have a beer with. While I think he is a sociopath and a megalomaniac who has messianic ideas, and blew up frogs for fun and games. He is the poster child for the entire Bush family and the entire Republican party. Also he is representative of the Neocons and the Theocons.
The Theocons being the evangelical fundies(not all evangelicals, my favs are Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter) and the Pope(present and previous) and the Catholic fundies who follow him.
I too was reared Catholic parents and learned from the Ursulines and the Dominicans and I love them dearly. My aunt was a Dominican. I can't help but think that she would be appalled at what the Pope is/was doing, consorting with the Republican party; the party of the 'Culture of Death' for ever more profit and ever more political power, at any cost and no matter who pays the price and no matter how high the price.
But then, when I look back at Catholic Church history and politics over the last 2000yrs I am no longer amazed at what has transpired between the Pope and his Republican friends. What ever the Repubs offered the Pope to go along it was enough for him to sell out for 30 pieces of silver, or mayhap he sold out for 30 souls, which only belong to the person that God gave them to, and NOT the Pope. He has a right to only one soul, his own.
It seems like this country is headed for a combination of economic slavery and theological slavery.
My time is nigh, so I won't be here to see it, but It seems to be coming, slavery. The devolution, dismantling and defunding of America and our American families into some form of a third world Catholic Latin American country cannot be a good thing. Whether we are subject to theological ideology or Fascist business ideology matters not, it all reeks of ideological slavery of one kind or another.
It seems that when ideology takes over it trumps human values and reality. Now we are supposed to believe that the earth is only 6,000 yrs old. In the past we were supposed to believe that the sun revolved around the earth and Galileo was wrong when he espoused his heliocentric theory.
Quite possibly Jesus knew what he was talking about when He admonished us to NOT merge church and state, when He said: 'render unto caesar...'
As I recall Confucius, Hillel, Jesus and the Prophet all spoke to the same issue, doing unto others as we would have them do unto us.
The Catholic Church's history of hate for women(half of the human race, half of God's creation), Jews, Muslims, Protestants and any and all others who disagree with the Church is an awesome and fearful thing, and it is still going on. Something is very wrong.
God did NOT ask me, you or the Pope or George Bush when He created homosexuals. He just did it, He sometimes seems to do things like that, and without consulting us. Imagine that, the nerve. He chose not to ask us what we thought, or for our permission. Now all of us have to learn to live with His creations, all of them, Women, Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Gays, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais, etc. That is our task, it seems to me. And that is what I must live by. God ordained it and Jesus taught it when He spoke of peace, love and tolerance.
I do not intend to kill even one Muslim(Islamofascist) who does not attack me or us. And as near as I can tell only one and a very small number of his followers directly attacked us.
So exactly why did Bush let him go at Tora Bora in December of 2001, when our CIA paramilitary and Special Forces troops had him trapped. Why did our troops put their lives on the line in this deliberately sabotaged operation. And why was bin Laden allowed to escape. When you get the answer, tell the Pope.
Amen and pray for peace. Jesus would have demanded it, I believe.
ST, did Sandra write about atheism? I have been working today, so not been on OS long enough to check. I will look and if necessary respond, or we can move the conversation to her blog.
I thank all of you for sharing your thoughts about why so many of us are ex-Catholics. I am trying to empathetically stand in the shoes of an atheist. I struggle with this personally -- it is not something that makes me feel good. I want to be honest with you and myself so I have to state that.
To me, not to believe in God would be akin to believing that at death there is nothing more. The part of my belief system that has been at the heart of breaking off from Catholicism is the concept that there is only one life -- from this one life either heaven or hell have been "earned" for all eternity.
I have never been one to look at the world in black and white, absolute terms. I always see shades of gray (part of the empathy thing). Again, purgatory exists within Catholicism to cover the gray areas, but to me that is not satisfactory.
I believe that we are body and spirit -- that our soul has the potential to live on, to grow, and to strive to be more like the soul's proposed Creator /God. If there is no God, do you believe there is a soul? Where then does our innate impetus to consider doing good/living right/try to empathize come from? Why would we even want to bother with our fellow man except to compete with them?
I believe that the nature of a soul even as the Catholics think of it, should not have to end at our death. Also, I do not believe that if there is a God, that souls would be given only one chance to succeed. Since I believe in spirit, which implies its continued existence, it is not hard to take the step that there is a God that created that spirit.
That leaves me with a more Eastern thought process: we come back to the Earth to work to perfect ourselves. For me, this belief is necessary. Otherwise, I am not sure why anyone would try to continue on here, and how do you keep yourself from a deep depression?
These are my thoughts and beliefs, which will seem foreign to you from what I am reading and understanding her in this thread. I wonder if anyone has even done serious research on the fractioning off after people leave the Catholic Church. Wouldn't it be interesting to see some stats on the percentages of ex-Catholics that have become aetheists, joined other branches of Christianity, or gone on to something else, like whatever it is that I have become?
I would say that being a lapsed Catholic, I always have the out of a deathbed confession, should the concept of "nothing" become too much, but I'm not that cynical. Besides, if there is a God, I'm sure She'd see through the ploy and if I do get called on the carpet to explain myself, I'd rather not add that little final hypocrisy to my cosmic rap sheet.
I have had enough requests that we continue this discussion in a different post, that I am pretty sure someone (not myself) will be posting on Catholic to Atheist. If not, I will try something at least for you to all present your thoughts! Thank you for the conversations here, I have been enjoying them!
Lisa, I believe this, too... until you get to the part about being more like the creator.
Finishing that sentence seems to me to be a lot of what Life is all about.
Thanks, Sally, for the bump -- that was very thoughtful ;)
ktm, yes, I paused right where you did when writing this. It is a tough one to write when speaking to confirmed atheists. Who is running the machine that spits out the new life, or are we just in motion, and keeping ourselves going until the last human expires? Such heavy thinking...
Hey, Verbal Remedy has up a fun post -- a little light-hearted fun! I suggest all might enjoy a little mental indulgence?!
Might this not be simply the ego expressing the evolutionary imperative of preservation of the species? After all, if I can become nothing, then all of humanity could becone nothing. Quelle horreur!
I am reminded of a line from the wonderful BBC production I, Claudius, in which Claudius' mother Livia, contemplating her own mortality, whimpers, "I want to be a God - I want to live forever."
Hey, give it up! On the cosmic stage, you're less than a grain of sand. Whatever possesses you to think you could go on forever (not to mention that you DESERVE to go on forever.)
Surely you will admit that there was a time when you did not exist, so you already know than you are not "eternal", in the full sense of that word. So why think that such a time will not cone again?
I'm gonna go re-read Freud's "Future of an Illusion" to see if he deals with the question.
I'm pretty certain that I don't deserve to live forever. (I asked you NOT TO MENTION THAT!)
Monsieur Chariot -- You must be empathetic to write and paint the way you do. I think the test is reading sociability factors, rather than all of the facets of empathy. But, the test was something to do, and it has been fun to have a chat with everyone!
I scored 44, by the way. The way the questions were asked was a bit odd. In my alternative dispute resolution courses I was the master of getting what was going on and how people felt about it. I don't believe that going all gooey about it really helps other people, or me. I think that cultivation of a very clear-eyed ability to stand in the shoes of another is a profound skill and I don't believe the test attached to your post is much of a judge. Maybe I was modest in my responses because the questions were framed so obviously.
I think the test is way off.
You are probably very correct about the test. Some people here at OS that seem very empathetic scored about like you did. Again, the test was put in to get us thinking and to have a bit of fun!
I am putting up a new post that you might enjoy, and on which I would enjoy hearing your thoughts! Thanks, for writing.
Maybe it is -- I just posted why I used that test -- only one I could find that fit the topic!
I would like to hear your comments on my next post. Hope to have it up by 3 pm. Talk soon!
Would you rather connect on-line or in person?
How many hours a week to spend on line vs. face to face?
How many friends did you make this week in-person? How many on-line?
Do you feel your on-line friends are more empathetic to your feelings?
A :-)
It's not that I don't feel for people, it's just that if people want to do things to themselves that are self destructive (i.e. voting for a guy who you'd like to have a beer with even though his policies will shaft you) there ain't a damn thing I can do about it.
So I don't worry about it.
Some people say I remind them of House. I tell them, come on, I'm not that much of a dick. They tell me that I can be and I say, well, if I am like that, they have done something to deserve it.
I guess that's why I'm out there saying let's destroy the opponent while everyone's saying, we're not like that.
Tony, I am not judging anyone's scores, but since you admit to not trying too hard to be empathetic, you probably won't be. I smiled at the House analogy, actually. You do say what you think, as does House. He fights for what he believes and has no qualms about being PC in any setting -- we need some people like that!
You will see me bring up the concept of empathy in my posts, since it is so central to my thought process. Glad to see you both found this post. It was one of my favorites because we had a lot of great sharing and exchange. And, to steal a line from McCain, "my friends", that is what the OS experience is all about for me -- the people! :)