Many thanks to koshersalaami for the inspiration to do this post.

Very interesting. Thanks for giving us this information. I have many friends who are Muslim, and I've heard similar ideas from them. But I have to confess, I've never read the Koran itself, or excerpts from it. Thanks again. R.

What an absolutely great post, L!

Thank you!

Thanks for the effort that went into this, Lezlie. We are inundated today with half-truths and out-of-context quotes and too often that's allowed to drive the conversation.

Important, excellent piece. R.

Sigh. I was watching the prez last night and just thinking, "Wow..." I had such hope. And then these people who know the truth but won't admit it, and instead keep promoting lies and half-truths and ignorance...just won't let go.

I'm too tired to talk about it. But...you know that won't last, right, sis?

Osama Bin Laden considers me an infidel as well as the 3,000 American he killed. It doesn't matter whether I believe it or not, it only matters if the terrorists do.

@ Deborah Young: So you think Bin Laden is personally out to get you, huh?

I know money is tight, hon... do you want us to take up a collection to help with the cost of your meds??? I really hate to see you going without.

Deborah Young: There are an estimated 1.57 BILLION Muslims in the world today. Osama bin Laden and his followers represent a small fraction of one percent of Muslims. Hate terrorists. I do. But only a handful of terrorists are Muslims. And I think you know that.

The problem for me is that there are a lot of people who follow the word of the Koran much like a lot of people follow the word of the Bible, in that neither one of them have actually fully read the Koran or the Bible but listen to interpreters of the texts talk about what the books say. This is why you have all sorts of people believing their holy books say some outrageous things that the books never came near saying.

Unfortunately, those are the people who are the ones causing the most trouble in the world. Not only do they believe in things never originally written, but they believe it to the death.

Lezlie..
greta post.. very few check out the rest of teh story as they say.
Rated with hugs

In recruiting terrorists to the cause, al Qaeda looks for people who are not well-versed in the teachings of the Koran because they can be much more easily exploited with half-truths than those who know the text.

Both al Qaeda and conservative Americans have used bastardized holy texts as a tool, and very little of what makes it to the news about either religion in the hands of religious oppressors bears much resemblance to the source material. That's because it's not about religious faith at all; it's about power.

I am a lot like you. I automatically go to Google when I don't understand something, which is a lot really. I am not so egotistical that I think I know all. Many times a day, I Google something to see if I, or the author of something I'm reading is correct. Many, many times I see where we are both incorrect. These men running around talking of the Koran have no idea about it because they just read what someone has written for them. Great Post L!

Good work here. We need to keep fighting against ignorance and bigotry.

Thank you, this is very informative and concise. I work with people that think all Muslims want to kill all non-muslims and I think I'll print this out and post it on the bulletin board. You said it much better than I could.

WHAT?! People cherry pick from facts to support their hate based causes!? Take words out of context to support a preconceived notion?

Great post! So glad you took the time to research this. Thank you.

Keith Ellison represents my district. He is an honorable man in every respect. His faith is his own business and is not the reason I support him or a reason not to. But I absolutely defend his right to serve without having to confront such bigoted opposition. The ignorance of Judson Philips speaks louder than his words, and you succinctly make the case for that ignorance. Unless we confront bigotry where we find it, it will spread. Thanks for this piece.

"But most ignorant people actually choose to stay ignorant so as not to confuse themselves and their cherished beliefs by learning the truth."

Yo, catnliar - front and center - your name is being called.

Great post. Thanks for this "l" and for the inspiration koshersalaami.


-R-

Steve: It makes me very happy to hear from someone so close to the situation I used to anchor this piece. You have no idea how much it infuriates me to see such idiocy running rampant in America.

I spent most of career in the Middle East and Asia. Terrorists are terrorists that is what they do. Muslim's if you did read the Koran do not adhere to these principals. The ability to sway people to become extremists is rooted mostly by their governments who have a two class society, rich and educated, poor and not. This is what the terrorists do, feed on the poor. If you were brought up a Christian you believe in God, if you are poor living in a Third World you don't or die doing so. People have based most wars on religion, mostly made up in the quest to retain or gain power. Have you seen the movie " The Invention of Lying" he just made it up, as with all religions. There is NO MAN IN THE SKY. o/e

Very interesting post. There are extremists in all religions and there is of course just as much (possibly more) violence in the Old Testament as in the Quran. Your post provides important clarification. Thanks.

Excellent, informative piece...R.

I truly appreciate this, Lezlie. I wonder if some of the militant Muslims have read the Qur'an as carefully as you, or if they also are deliberately misinterpreting it for political reasons?

Matt: I think it would have to be the latter. There are far too many Muslims who know exactly what it says for them to stay stupid about it.

The Internet is so filled with useful and interesting information, there's no reason NOT to read and learn. When our Internet service is occasionally down, I realize how much I rely on it to answer both simple and complex questions.

It's hard to develop educated opinions in a closed-minded society, when you're only "educating" yourself just enough to make it sound like you know what you're talking about -- especially when you're counting on your followers not to know or care if you're getting it right. It's a lot harder to really know what you're talking about.

You buy 'em books and buy 'em books, but they just keep tearing out the pages.

Good breakdown of some of the actual tenets of a faith that gets trashed so often. The myth that Christianity has a lock on inclusiveness and ecumenicalism goes back a long way in the West. Then again, I'd like to see humanity in general get beyond its dependence on religion. R.

I finally got time to get back on line or I'd have gotten here sooner. Lezlie, this is one fantastic post. Great research, well expressed. I'm proud to have contributed to this work in any way.

That "infidel" is a Christian concept originally applying to Muslims rather than a Muslim concept is really interesting - sort of like learning that "Sodomy" isn't a Hebrew word but an English word about five hundred years old.

Deborah,
My answer to "it only matters if the terrorists do" is that such an answer makes sense when dealing with terrorists but no sense when dealing with other Muslims, a primary example being the Sufi Muslims trying to build what has become known as the Ground Zero Mosque. It matters very much if we're alienating loyal American Muslims by treating them as if they consider us infidels when they don't.

Lezlie,
Your comment about responsibility is true and important. Thank you.

L in the Southeast, first, your argument that "infidel" is actually an English word and not Arabic to excuse the disdain and lower than human station of non-believers in Islam (note that I don't say in all Muslims eyes) is a false and fallacious attempt to divert the attention and thinking of those who don't agree with your opinion about Islam. The truth is that it means "one without faith" and that is the meaning conveyed by the actual Arabic. It doesn't matter what the English word is; it's the meaning that is needed to understand the import of the book through its translations.

Next, that article that you link us to, "Does the Qur'an teach to kill, tax or convert Infidels?"--a question which its author pretends to answer in its beginning with "The short answer is no" if you will continue to read actually gives a far more revealing answer further in.

"The options were not convert, die, or pay the tax. Instead, non-Muslims were allowed to practice their own religions and maintain their own institutions. In lieu of converting to Islam, they paid the jizya, or poll tax"

Whaaat?!!? He says one thing, then turns right around and says the opp0site! Do we pay a tax to believe in our own religion or don't we? He denies it then says that we do! And goes on to say "In fact, some Muslim rulers actually discouraged conversion, because they preferred collecting the poll tax. This tribute system was very compatible with the political economy of the premodern world."

As to the "kill" part of the question of options to conversion, he side steps that possibility, but given the history of Islam what penaly do you think the refusal to submit and either convert or pay the "poll tax" levied on unbelievers and which they must pay if they wanted to continue to observe their own religion rather than Islam was in the Muslim dominated lands?

You talk of actually educating ourslves about Islam, and I am in full agreement. But I actually mean it. I've been urging OS readers to do just. Read the whole book. Read the history of the religion. Educate yourselves to its doctrines.

One such doctrine is taqqiya, lying in the cause of Islam. I wrote an article about it a while back, posted here:
http://open.salon.com/blog/henryr/2010/09/11/taqqiya_lying_in_the_cause_of_islam

Don’t just take the word of those you want to believe who will lie to you telling you what you want to hear about Islam. Instead, actually do what you say, and really educate yourself about it.

Learn of its doctrines, such as taqqiya, and of abrogation. Abrogation is a doctrine that says that when one passage of the Qur’an or Koran contradicts another, then the earlier passage is abrogated and it is the later passage which is to be regarded as instruction for the believer to know what Allah requires. According to one very highly respected and authoritative Islamic scholar there are only 43 out of 114 Surah’s, or chapters, of the Qur’an that are unaffected by that doctrine of abrogation. This means that only 43 of 114 chapters can be taken at face value for what they say. The rest are simply suspect as to whether they are authoritative in Islam or not, and which chapter is of the 43 and which are not is completely unknowable to all but the most dedicated of Islamic scholars. And given the doctrine of taqqiya, lying in the cause of Islam, what do you think the unbelievers will be told by the believers who want to put the best face on Islam when the unbelievers ask them about their religion and its doctrines? Which passages do you think that they will quote to them? The earlier passages of peace and getting along with their unbelieving neighbors, or the later passages of jihad and forced submission?

Why do we find suicide bombers to be common in Islam but not in Christianity or Judaism? Educate yourself to find out. Read my article, “9/11, A Little Blonde Girl, The Qurr’an and me” posted here:
http://open.salon.com/blog/henryr/2010/09/09/911_a_little_blonde_girl_the_quran_and_me

Calling telling the truth about Islam ignorance and bigotry is itself ignorance and bigotry. Telling the truth is not. Don’t just give lip service to educating yourself about it. Do it.

Nice work, L. Yeah, we were using it first. Unfaithful. Those without faith.

Henry's right. Kill the infidels!

HenryR needs to take a pill. I like this post. It's informative and fair. And I'm pretty sure that most Muslims are not bloodsucking vampires waiting around the corner to explode a vest full of TNT...Just guessing. Rated.

Oh wait, I forgot, we already are killing them. A Muslim is far more likely to die from a nice bomb or missile saying "Made in USA" on it than a Christian or Jew or other Western person is to be killed by a terrorist. The "kill ratio" is definitely on our side.

KILL THEM I SAY!

It transliterates as "the unfaithful" and they would call me that but I am not unfaithful, just incredulous.

What a thinking person's article this is! I really did not feel the same way once I'd read it through the first time.
This is excellent, Lezlie, really top notch stuff.
Rated

Of course you are correct, L. Of course you suggest the ideal remedy. Of course it will not happen. You and I have been operating under the illusion that human beings have evolved, socially, culturally, politically, to a higher, better consciousness.

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

These quotes are from Wikipedia and reflect the educated opinions of the "Eastern Flavius Josephus" Sahih al-Bukharia the scholar primarily crediited withe the compilation of the modern Koran and the western historian Denise Spellberg.
"From the 20th century onwards, a common point of contention has been Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, who was six or seven at the time of her marriage,[25] and nine when the marriage was consummated.[12][25][26][27][28][29] American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."[25]
'Narrated Aisha: The Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:62:64[30]"

Nice guy Mo.

@Duane: i read or saw somewhere how Islamic children go to a special class for the literal memorization of the holy book we're talking about here. That would preclude, perhaps, any actual discussion as to what it all may portend for them in the adult world.


Also, insanity runs in families along the same lines as with any terrorist group, making them closeknit or tied to each other in sick interrelationship. it is not to be expected any of these people would have it in them to become sane enough to give up their vigilante ways and stop terrorizing others. Every romantic notion of what they may be up to would have to evaporate overnight for their beliefs to turn around.
Just a thought.

Excellent, excellent post, Lezlie! A little knowledge is always a dangerous thing. You've demonstrated how misinformation leads people into hatred and wars. Great pick for EP .
~R

This is great information! The Muslim faith has as many fanatics as other faiths do. The extreme believers get all of the press because that is what makes news! R

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's all I can say.

Thank you for enlightening us ;)

If one digs deep enough (you don't have to go deep), there are passages in *both* the Bible and the Qur'an ("Holy" intentionally omitted in both cases) that can be read as sanctioning and advocating atrocities in the name of "God" or "Allah". And while there are also passages that are wise and levelheaded in both, I find it disingenuous for anyone to casually cite either the wise passages or the violent passages for their own purposes, given the fact that both are part and parcel of a larger whole that is highly questionable as a "recommended suite of wisdom".

Yeah, King David was an adulterous cold-blooded murderer, but I think he said 50 mea culpas and got over it.
But we digress.

Good songwriter though.

The greatest cure for ignorance, and against being manipulated by those who would exploit you in your ignorance... is knowledge. You have amply demonstrated the value of seeking the truth and educating yourself.

One of my biggest pet peeves with the members of the Tea Party Organization is they appear to take such PRIDE in their ignorance. I was always taught to believe it wasn't a virtue.

Wonderful post Lezlie and emphatically rated.

Amazing how no one has addressed what I actually said, but only responded by either ignoring it (the majority,) through histrionics (nanatehey,) or an ad hominem attack (themanhattankid.) Oh well. The OS crowd sucks that sort of "debate" style up (when it's in agreement with them) like it was Jim Jones's Flavor Aid. Which is what they actually drank at Jones Town. It's usually mis-identified as Kool Aid.

HenryR: I suspect the reason no one has responded is that you have made it perfectly clear that none of us is qualified to have an opinion on the matter until we have read the entire Qur'an, cover to cover. I, for one, haven't quite gotten that done.

Whenever a righty, or any other idiot, brings up Kool-Aid I laugh my ass off. What are you people if not a mob of misinformed idjits wanting to usher us all to your collective death worship? Pray tell Henry, would you dispute the fact that Muslims are far more likely to be killed by agents of the West (i.e., the USA) than an American is to be killed by a Muslim? If so you're a fool, or more likely, just another apologist for the "War on Terror." Or both; my money is on both.

And still just an ad hominem, Nana.

L, I don't really expect many here to read the whole Quran, though that sure would be a good thing to do. Just try a bit of reading beyond the apologists for it and the religion that holds it holy. That's a good start to really educating one's self as to what is the truth about it and Islam.

You apparently have a poor grasp of what "ad hominem" means Henry. I'll repeat my question: would you dispute the fact that Muslims are far more likely to be killed by agents of the West (i.e., the USA) than an American is to be killed by a Muslim? Please be so kind as to answer that; if you can't or won't we'll know you for the intellectual coward you are.

A couple of things:

1. In regard to the question about Islam recognizing Christianity and Judaism but not the other way around: That's mainly a function of age. Most Jewish doctrine predates the existence of Islam , so does a lot of Christian doctrine. Islam came into existence at a time when Christianity had been in existence for about 700 years and Judaism for 2,700 years.

2. My answer to Henry is as follows: Doctrine of Whom? There is certainly extreme doctrine in the Bible but the fact that it's there doesn't mean that it's generally followed, like the death penalty for Sabbath violations. There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and at least a few sects; I'd like to know just how monolithic a Muslim viewpoint your pronouncements represent

The responses to Deborah and Henry are very telling...

Deborah made a solid point. It doesn't matter how we define infidel, it matters how a terrorist defines it. Yes, terrorists are a small fraction of Muslims. That does not negate her point. Numbers and fractions didn't matter at the twin towers. Amy's response was so condescending and sarcastic I wonder who needs the collection.

Henry also made a valid point. The response? Sarcasm and condescension.

If a bunch of people who are supposed to be good with the written word (ie; writers) can't speak civilly to each other without sarcasm and condescension, what the hell is the chance of convincing a dumb-ass racist politician that Muslim doesn't mean terrorist? Slim to none. Ego trumps logic yet again. No surprise.

You’re right. People don’t want to confuse their cherished beliefs.

Loved the article itself, and rated it – the comments left me disappointed at the reminder that the comment section is best reserved for the rah-rah cheerleader squad.

Screw your heads on, jackasses. Muslims hate women. The entire Islamic religion denegrates women. They HATE them, they subbrogate them, they beat them......they blame them and then kill them if they get a boner if a woman shows an elbow out of a car window.

Legally.

HOW IS THIS NOT THE DISCUSSION????????

Enough said.

You do not need to go any further to discredit (or, stupidly CREDIT) Muslims.

Fuck the fuck out of Muslims.

Excellent post Lezlie. It's the same old ignorant rhetoric that has been espoused for years and years -- just different people.

It's like there is a template with all the phrases of hate, exclusion, and demagoguery with blank spaces that say Insert “Group” Here.

To the idiots that quote "scripture," that quote the bible to re-enforce their misguided and hateful ideas, they always miss the point that JESUS, their focal point, their guiding light, replaced the Ten Commandments, and the horrific punishments described in the old testament. (How many stones can YOU throw to kill someone.....???)

Jesus, the guy that these gay-haters quote, abolished those commandments and replaced them with this simple pimple phrase, one that actually makes sense:

"All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean." ------Matthew 7:12

In other words, the Golden Rule.

Oh yeah, the last comment was out of context. I was thinking about how extremists, on any side, can justify their bullshit using their holy book of choice.

(VOTE!!!! All of you......vote as many times as you can!!!!)

Ginny, are you back from Hawaii yet?

Yeah, baby, I am back in Bumfuck......and as wild as ever.

It is really interesting to read the comments to this post.

You have put into words so eloquently what I have always believed.

Nice try, but the Quran goes on to say that Christians who continue being Christians (by believing in the Trinity and rejecting Muhammad) are blasphemers who have invented a lie about Allah (10:68-69) by ascribing partners to Allah. This is the worst sin possible (7:37, 29:68) and thus Christians are condemned to eternal torture in hell (10:70), are not to be taken as friends in this world by Muslims (5:51) and are even to be forced into a position of humiliation (9:29) because they are cursed (9:30) and have diseased hearts (5:52).

If the Allah wanted to say that Muslim and kafir were equal, then he would have plainly said it instead of narrating verse after verse that distinguishes non-Muslims with hateful rhetoric and gleefully descriptions of their fate. For those who want to believe that the Quran preaches universal brotherhood, then clearly ignorance is an ally.

Heya L!

I dig yer post. I have another one on my blog today on the whole Judson Phillips / Keith Ellison frackas. You might go check it out.

http://open.salon.com/blog/indiana_joe/2010/10/29/life_imitates_art_tea_party_nation_founder_channels_onion

Cheers!

An infidel is someone who is weak. Someone who is weak is without faith. There's an "I" in Infidel. I've been an infidel. We all have.

Good post, L.

Rated.

Can we all at least agree that the spammers are infidels...?

Sage advice well-given, L. Rated and appreciated.

Variant Fox: Well I sure can! I think I've deleted 30-40 spam posts since this post went up and I am beyond sick of it.

Dang, Nana, you're right! You did have an argument in there! It wasn't just an ad hominem attack, as I said. It took you four posts to make an actual argument and was still couched in an ad hominem and never addressed a single thing I said, but it was an argument. And not at all one I mind addressing. If intellectual cowardice is ignoring the actual arguments people make, go back, re-read my original comment, then go down through all the comments responding to that including yours and tell us who qualifies.

As to your actual argument, I have no problem with it, nor do I have any problem agreeing that we are far more likely to kill Muslims today than they are to kill us. We are doing so in Afghanistan and Iraq, though less now in Iraq than we were. That is simply a measure of the abilities of each to wage war, and we are in a war with Muslims (though not all Muslims, please note) because Islam is at war with the unbelieving world and has been ever since Muhammad took his fledgling religion and fled Mecca to Medina and then abrogated his "live peacefully with the unbelievers" doctrine to begin preaching jihad." And yes, his followers had been persecuted unmercifully in Mecca, causing him to do that. But he then spread that jihad to points far beyond Mecca to conquer most of Arabia with the sword and by conversion and his successors the Caliphs continued doing so until in about 60 years time Islam had conquered most of what is now seen as the Islamic nations of the world, even up into Southern Europe in places such as Spain and Southern France causing the Christian empires of Rome and Byzantium to wake up and begin fighting back, leading to the Crusades of the Roman church (The Byzantine Empire didn't take part in those, by the way, leading to Roman crusaders turning on them and sacking Constantinople, later Istanbul after Islam finally succeeded in Conquering Byzantium centuries later and changing the name of the city.)

The power of the Caliphs was finally broken, leading to the breaking up of the Islamic Caliphate empire into numerous Islamic nations, and so finally by the middle ages we saw less and less of the Islamic abilities to wage war against unbelievers, though certain factions continued to do so in acts of piracy and banditry against unbelievers. This continued right up to our own formation as a nation, and led to our newly founded nation establishing a permanent Navy, building the warship USS Constitution and some others to deal with the Islamic pirates of the Barbary Coast to put an end to their preying on American shipping and seizing Americans for slavery and ransom. That is completely following the instructions of Muhammad in the Koran, by the way; both enslaving prisoners taken on jihad, and ransoming them. And we see the piracy continuing along the coast of Somalia as well as in the Straits of Malacca, two critical chokepoints of world shipping for both brigandry in seizing shipping and the loot thus obtained, and subsequent ransoming of the ships and prisoners taken. The straits of Malacca, by the way, are the narrow waters betweem the Muslim nations of Malaya and Indsonesia and used to be the most heavily pirate infested waters in the world, though that may have become the coast off the Muslim nation of Somalia in recent years.

So the answer to your question, is, yes, we are far more likely to kill Muslims today than they are to kill us. It's a matter of war and we have far greater armed forces for waging it, and I am greatful that that is so, else we would have suffered far, far more than we have. That may not continue to be the case, though, as so many Americans today are becoming brainwashed into thinking that the sole cause of our war with Islam is American and Western Capitalist greed. I don't dispute that that is a factor, but it is not the greatest factor, nor was it the original factor beginning this 1500 year old war. That was the foundation of Islam and the example of its prophet Muhammad in not just instructing his followers in the ways of jihad, but in example by carrying it out himself in leading his followers in raids against the camel caravans of Mecca once they had fled to Medina, and then continuing on to conquer much of Arabia by the time of his death.

Now let's just see where your suggestion of intellectual cowardice leads you. There is still my original comment which neither you nor anybody else here has ever addressed in any point that I made within it. Do you want to take that up, or do you want to drop it?

We've had some good conversations before, Nana. Not for a while. But you are an intelligent guy, and I have seen you make some good, logical arguments. Perhaps the insults and ad hominems you've levied here stem from my assertions of some things you said before as being anti-semitic, and which you took great exception to. So maybe I've been to blame for some of your ridicule here, even if my argument here has not. If so, I will apologize to you now for that. I don't know that you are anti-semitic. You may not be. I just suspected that it was the case from things you said back then, and may have over stepped the bounds of reasonable debate in levying the charge against you. If that has any bearing (and I'm just guessing, here-- it might not) in how you have framed your responses to me here so far, then let's put that to rest. I apologise.

@Gina Roberts: I see you signed up for Open Salon in order to respond to this post. Thank you for your interest.

I have no intention of trying to go toe to toe with people who consider themselves experts on the Qur'an because I cannot. Yesterday was literally the first time I have ever even read passages from it. But I was raised Catholic and I CAN tell you unequivocally that we children were taught exactly the same things about non-believers in the Catholic version of Christianity; i.e., ours was the one true church, only Catholics are assured a place in heaven, it was a sin to even ENTER a Protestant church, etc., etc.

My post was in response solely to the notion that all Muslims want all non-Muslims dead because it is so written in the Qur'an. Once we leave that discussion, I'm most definitely out of my league. My point was and is: At least I looked for the answer rather than accept what I've heard via people who know as little about it as I do.

Henry, your "apology", accompanied as it is with a suggestion that I'm anti-Semitic, is meaningless. You certainly do blather a lot though; my take is that you're one of those simpletons who mistake longwindedness for intellect. Though your need to pedantically pontificate is amusing, I'm as well-versed in world history as yourself, probably much more so in fact, so save the Religion Wars 101 lesson for someone else. You're as spellbound by the moribund Caliphate, by events which occurred over a thousand years ago, and by outmoded religious dogma, ours and theirs, as anyone from Al Qaeda. The simple truth is this; the vast, overwhelming majority of Muslims in the year 2010 have no interest in jihad or war or terror of any kind. That you believe otherwise illustrates a problem within yourself, not within Islam as practiced in the real world. Arabs and other Muslims are simply humans who wish to live their lives and raise their families in a modicum of security. As do Christians, Jews, Hindus and pretty much everyone else. Your twaddle about people in America being somehow brainwashed by Islam, when juxtaposed against the wave of Islamophobia and religious intolerance here, of which you yourself are an exemplar, is revealed as a load of arrant horseshit. I take back the charge of intellectual cowardice; you're not a coward, just a garden variety hater, a spiteful moron who'd rather rehash the Middle Ages than see the world for what it is right now. Someday, eventually, people like you, along with pathetic, hateful idiots like the Taliban and Al Qaeda, will be extinct, and the world will be a better place for it. Inshallah.

Too bad, Nan. The apology was sincere, and not accompanied by a suggestion that you are anti-semitic. That was a foolish suggestion I made a few months back, and for which I actually was apologising. But if you won't accept that, that's ok. That plus your continued ad hominems after your suggestion of intellectual cowardice if I didn't respond to your argument that we are killing more Muslims than vice-versa and which I have responded to fully now, along with your continued refusal to actually address any points I've ever made say enough about you as an opponent in debate. I won't bother trying to engage you in real debate or discussion again. It isn't worth the effort. I'll just note your charge of intellectual cowardice for not addressing your one argument when you made it along with your continued side-stepping of mine and leave it at that.

I mean Nana. That was a typo. Not an attempt to disparage Nana by applying a feminine name to him.

By way of "apology" Henry said "I don't know that you are anti-semitic. You may not be."

I may not be? Yeah, that positively drips with sincerity. Leave it at whatever you like Henry, but I've addressed your "points" to the extent they warrant it. Whining about ad homina-homina-homina seems to be your default response here, which is sort of weak, don't you think?

Your opening statement would be great on a bumper sticker (if bumper stickers were bigger). You cemented it with your post.

American fundamentalists are too busy taking the Bible literally, like killing the homosexuals, oppressing the women, and trying to find Zion through militia and political organization. Too bad they didn't get to the New Testament, or forgot the 10 commandments, like, love they neighbor as thyself.

Thanks for this. Clear.
No fight over Arugula,
The color of hair wigs,
black white zebra hide,
I love Ya wit and beast.
I beg for a bumpy ride.
If we run out the gas,
we can stop and get`
More gas and go on`
and no refuse to be`
Open and spacious.
We sing bbd and abc.
Oh. Burp backwards.
Behave.
Wild Day.
O bless Ya`
Body & Soul`
Ya good Heart`
You a tripartite`
That' Great Ay!

Art James!!!!!! Thanks. You've made my day.

Geez. you really don't know when to shut up, do you Nana? Ok. I take back the apology. I guess you probably are the anti-Semite I thought you were back then after all, but whether you are or whether you aren't, you stand exposed for all to see by the criteria you laid out yourself as the intellectual coward yoou tried to label me as being but had to finally admit that I'm not, and still you continue to spew. Ok. The field is yours. Go ahead and spew.

Rated. For sanity, eagerness to know and find the truth, patience to ferret out wisdom...so well done,Lezlie! Thanks for this terrific piece! I hope whenever there's an OS workshop that we both attend that at some point you'll sit near me! Love love this post. Happy to see it was well received...exceptional piece...isn't that what ep stands for? xo

Muse: I do so appreciate that. I would love to attend a workshop and sit next to you! When and where is it? I'm there. lol

Lezlie

Right on, Lezlie . . . I read this over the weekend, but didn't have time to respond. Just want to give you props for hosting an interesting discussion, in addition to an excellent post.

Thanks, Owl!

There is no excuse for ignorance when we have such incredible resources at our fingertips. I have always felt a little like an infidel, but I was hoping no one would notice.
wonderful essay
rated with love