I went to a funeral of a close relative this past week and since the family was Catholic they held a full mass with several eulogies. I'm not religious at all but I found myself following along in the ceremony. Afterwards we all stood around in the vestibule and talked for ages. It really does help. It's awful to feel alone with death.

BOKO--I am not Catholic, but my husband is, and I have gone to Mass with him--there is something comforting about their rituals.

I noticed some of the same things. Especially how calming the ritual seemed to be. The whole thing really made me examine how I feel about the military. I must have been typing my post about that confusion while you were writing this. Nice concise, thought-provoking post. Rated.

Blue, I haven't read your post about confusion, but I will. Normally funerals on television--like Jackson's, seem overly dramatic and emotional...today's was full of dignity.

Your description of his monstrous acts ("strange and seemingly random act of violence") makes you sound completely uninformed about who this man is. Strange and seemingly random???? And you are getting a doctorate in rhetoric? Wow........

I would like to suggest that you research the benefits of some of that "ritual" you speak of. It anchors a person so it is easier to make sense of those "strange and random acts" so they aren't so strange after all. In a life with some absolutes, this mans actions are neither strange nor random, but evil and planned. I hope he repents, (that means "change how you think") finds his peace with his maker and then I hope he pays with his life so the victims families understand that our society is civil and just and protects it's heroes and innocents. Peace.

Philos777--I don't understand why you have hostility towards me. His acts were seemingly random--we still don't know what was in his mind or what inspired him to go on a killing spree. And it was strange--out of the ordinary. What I said doesn't mean the acts weren't evil and planned...and you are right, rituals do make horrible experiences less random and strange...we do do need that comfort.

"I don't understand why you have hostility towards me."
This is a common DEFENSIVE statement when someone does not understand what another person is actually saying and, the one making that statement CHOOSES to feel "attacked", etc.
I also saw your words, "strange and seemingly random act of violence" as somewhat misinformed.
After seeing your response to Philos, I expect that you will also choose to see my words as attacking you, which they are NOT.
I'm ex navy, went where most have never gone and been fortunate to come home alive and, physically in one piece.
You would serve yourself well if you were able to see others' words as something from which to learn rather than choose to defensively choose to see them as attacks when they are not meant that way.

thanks for writing about this Melissa. i caught the memorial replayed on tv last night and cried...for the insanity of war period, for the soldiers who signed up to serve our country even in the face of war, and for those left who mourn.

xgs, I can see how my saying that it seemed random might have been vague. Again, by random I meant out of the ordinary, not the norm, or without any rational cause. It wasn't random in the sense of the term "a random act of violence," but even if it had been plotted out, the victims themselves appear to have been randomly targeted--they hadn't done anything in particular to warrant this attack, unless I am really misinformed. I can see why this is a sensitive subject, and I didn't mean to offend anybody in my response to the funeral. My own personal loss made me empathize and my husband's own service in the military made this funeral have some more meaning for me....

halfof42, I think the fact they these men and women signed up even in the face of war and yet they died not in war is what makes their loss even more tragic. Thank you for coming by and sharing.

XJS - I fear that you are jumping to a conclusion in the same way that you are suggesting Melissa has done. The tone of your comment was hectoring and ungracious.

And there is no doubt that Philos777's comments were sarcastic, and Melissa was quite entitled to find them in many ways hostile.

Thank you Mormon lefty. The deep hurt and anger that people must feel is something I can understand, especially if they think that people are excusing this man's acts in some way. I have the impression that there might be a political dimension to this discussion, which I was trying to avoid when I mentioned the "spin" on television...it might influence people's perceptions of the horrible event at Ft. Hood.

It is just so tragic. I cried when I saw part of the memorial service. To think that those people at Ft. Hood felt safe in their protected environment. . .
I agree that the rituals of the army, and of any religion, bring comfort to those in mourning.

XJS, I was just about to respond while reading your comment. I was ready to say what you said.

Melissa, I have no hostility towards you. If you watch much news, as I am a news hound, the evidence that this guy was an Islamic sympathizer for years, started to pile up the day of the massacre.

I hope you do decide to investigate a new devotion to your creator as it provides eternal answers where there are no temporal ones.

Karin, I think you are right on that the protected nature of these soldiers is shattered by this event;
Philos, I saw the evidence of him being an Islamic sympathizers, and now see evidence coming out that he was probably mentally ill as well, but it doesn't make the events any less incomprehensible to the victims and the country in general. Now news is coming out that some people knew of both of his Islamic extremist beliefs and of his mentally ill status, but that because of fear of discriminating against him because of his beliefs, the mentally ill aspects might have not be addressed in the appropriate manner. Right now I think people are trying to figure out why this tragedy occurred and maybe even blame people for not preventing it...and coming to terms with it through religion and ritual is probably more healing.

Are you making this up? Who has suggested and where is the article that says he may have a mental illness? Off course that is the spin he would love you to put on this. NO WAY!!! Please, help me.

If you believe this now, we are doomed. Wake up! What is it going to take to make you scrutinize Islamic motivation in the U.S.? What do you need? Doesn't 3000 people on 911 and now the second largest terrorist act in U.S. history, with 50+ people being shot and 13 killed sort of make you wonder? I heard someone say this yesterday. All Muslims aren't terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim. let the profiling and scrutiny begin.........Today.

Is it Islamophobia if they really are trying to kill me???

Here are some news references for my last comment, philos:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29411.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-hasan12-2009nov12,0,2144434.story

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/fort-hood-shooters-intentions-mass-murder-terrorism/story?id=9019410

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572625,00.html

Hope this helps!

First, thanks, Philos777, for confirming that you're the racist member of the RNC team that puts right-wing propaganda here. Your excessive exclamation points are a clear red flag. And so is your assumption that "all terrorists are Muslims" - as if Christian child-abusers and abortion-clinic bombers, Jewish Shin Bet agents and the Westboro Baptist Church were not terrorists.

Now, as for your post, Ms. McCarter: there is another "ritual" that the military will use. Namely, a court-martial with a foregone verdict. In the past, when incidents like this occurred, there was no publicity; as a WW II veteran said someplace on OS, "there were no cell phones with cameras back then." The accused would get a quick kangaroo court and a quicker firing squad.

Now, the result will be the same, except circumstances will force it to be more open, although probably not covered by TruTV with continuous coverage. And I'm not saying that this particular killer doesn't deserve the death penalty - sometimes it is appropriate. But by outright killing him, and pleasing Philos777 and all the other American racists, our military will be making a martyr to be celebrated among the real Islamic fanatics - and helping to kill more American soldiers in more fanatic attacks.

I now turn you over to Philos777 to explain why his God is so much better than their God.

Tomreed, I think you point that this man can't get a fair trial in a military court is interesting--it is one of the things I considered when I asked what his conversation must be like with what I assume are his military lawyers when he woke up in the hospital bed. But, this is a case that is under the microscope, especially in an international sense. And people want answers about why it happened. So, I don't think the public will be satisfied is what you have described in the past happens in anyway today when it comes to his trial.

Melissa, I read the articles you sent. Most were pretty general articles reporting on many speculative views of why he could have done this horrible atrocity. I find it impossible to grasp that as a compassionate, benevolent people, we are unwilling to make judgments regarding good and evil. There comes a time, when we no longer have to find a cause.

I would like to recommend a book to you. It’s called “The People Of The Lie”. It has nothing to do with Islam or politics. It was written by a psychiatrist. It is not a technical read either. (No insult intended, you sound well read and well spoken) It was written by M.Scott Peck. He wrote one of the best selling books in history called “The Road Less Traveled”.

The book is written to the psychiatric community as an expose’ on evil. His premise is very interesting in that within that professional community, “evil” doesn’t exist. To most psychiatrists & therapists there is only "cause and effect". As a result, it would be rare that ANY psychiatrist would value judge this situation. It runs contrary to their deductive process. Thank God they don’t rule the world or no one would ever do anything wrong. Child molesters, mass murderers, rapists, embezzlers, and wife beaters would only get counseling.

I would hope that now after the facts have been revealed, and more continue to be revealed, that this guy communicated with radical Imams’ and tried to contact Al-Qaida, that you have abandoned your wishful thinking and come to terms with the truth. This was a calculated premeditated act of evil perpetrated against the U.S. Army and the general population. According to even the loosest definitions, that is an act of terrorism.

Forgive tomreed. Somehow he has me confused with some RNC plant or some other OS conspiracy he has imagined. He just started attacking me with personal messages and these outlandish attacks. I told him the RNC leans too far left and is too tame for me. Haha

No one has even implied that this monster, Hasan, should not get a fair trial or that he should be “outright killed”. What we do know is that no matter what caused him to do it, he was caught in the act, and the evidence shows that it was premeditated.

According to tomreed, anyone with some insight and a common sense opinion, besides himself, is a warmongering racist religious oppressor. His disdain for all things traditionally American and military justice, is beyond bitter. It's downright hateful. He must doubt his own mothers credibility. Her motivation for loving him and not letting him run into the street as a small child was motivated by racist age discrimination and was oppression and slavery.

Your refusal to call him on his bitter hatred for America somewhat explains your blinders and your unwillingness to call a spade a spade.

This guy Hasan is a terrorist and this is a terrorist act and when the whole story comes out, it should be even more embarrassing to those who would try to rationalize his behavior as sickness instead of evil. Peace.

P.S. To explain the last statement comparing the difference between sickness and evil, I highly recommend the book I mentioned.

P.S.S. I really do wish that peace loving Muslims would rise up and defend their religion by exposing these radicals from within their ranks. We can only hope.

Philos, I believe that mental illness and evil are not mutually exclusive. To me, evil acts can come out of mental illness and that does not excuse those evil acts. However, the nature of evil and the capacity for evil is a complicated and deep issue. I do not condone evil acts, but also think that sometimes evil is committed in the name of going against evil. If Hasan was not treated for mental illness for fear of appearing to discriminate against him, this is a sort of evil that comes from a society afraid of judging--on that account, we do agree. However, it also involves mental health professionals not doing their jobs either, because if someone is considered a threat, whether mentally ill or not, it shouldn't matter what their belief system is. I do think that a tone of civility and an assumption that other people are not the enemy is the best way to function argumentatively, which I think you do struggle with in terms of tone. You say I have blinders, which is an assumption--I don't want to make any assumptions about you or anyone else. The blog environment prevents full knowledge about anyone's intent. However, if we don't have common ground in our discussions and treat each other with respect, whatever your political leaning, then there is no way to proceed in argument. So if you or anyone else want to attack each other's character or make ad hominem arguments, probably another forum would be better. Thank you for your passion about this subject and sharing it, including your reading suggestion. However, one of the best defenses against evil isn't just radically opposing it with forceful language, but treating each other with kindess and compassion.

Best,
Melissa

Melissa, You said: “I do not condone evil acts, but also think that sometimes evil is committed in the name of going against evil.” ……..”If Hasan was not treated for mental illness for fear of appearing to discriminate against him, this is a sort of evil that comes from a society afraid of judging--on that account, we do agree.”

You then said “However, it also involves mental health professionals not doing their jobs either, because if someone is considered a threat, whether mentally ill or not, it shouldn't matter what their belief system is.”

Melissa, you seem to speak in amoral riddles. There has to be a place the wheel stops. Before the crisis…. What your process concludes to and breeds is confusion and it gives license to our enemies to always know a weakness in us. Somehow, we, the collective soul of America, have lost our moral resolve. We worship the rights of the individual at the expense of the rights of the whole. This must stop that silly lie that when one is oppressed, all are oppressed. We have to decide that in this world of a million shades of gray, that there has to be a place to draw a line between what we scrutinize and what we decide is harmless.

In the past, we had to make similar decisions. What are now presented as atrocities were considered necessary solutions to manage peace. Japanese internment camps are a perfect example of this type of solution. In this modern day and mental climate, one would have to be a really persuasive person to decide that something like that was necessary, but it happened in our country BEFORE we had 3000 innocents die, or a lone terrorist on a military installation open fire and kills 13 innocents.

This couldn’t have happened in our past. There was too much solidarity. Now we have people like you, who mean well, who have conscience, who are determined to try to see things from every angle, who still can’t decide where that line should be drawn. You won’t even call this guy a terrorist. He planned this rampage and did it in the name of his God in direct retaliation for our countries noble foreign policies. He is a terrorist and you just can’t get yourself to admit that. That is the problem and that is why I commented in the first place. You have analysis paralysis.

Washington needs to decide if it is worth it to put pressure on the Islamic community in order to do its job to protect the innocents in its country. They failed at Fort Hood. We owe Islam nothing but the opportunity for freedom. They have the responsibility to prove that American freedom is a choice that they will make instead of supporting and harboring terrorists or even looking the other way. If a Christian were to uncover a plot like this being perpetrated by another Christian, we all know that this wouldn’t have happened. We value life more than death, unlike Hasan who “loved death more than we loved life.”

Those Japanese internment camps were what was, at the time, deemed to be a lesser of two evils solution to a very tricky problem. Most people want to blame those on over zealous ignorant racist white people.

That had noting to do with it. It had nothing to do with race. It had to do with an ideology of emperor worship. The Kamikazes’ of WWII were the forerunners of today’s Muslim suicide bombers and domestic terrorists. We have no way of fixing this. The Islamic community needs to fix it. The solution is to heavily scrutinize ALL Muslims in America. Prove your loyalty to our way of life. Prove your commitment to law and order and peace and community, the same way the Japanese Americans did. Many understood that it had nothing to do with them, but it was their radical countrymen who were loyal to the emperor Hirohito.

America regrets that those internment camps were necessary, but they were necessary. I will get flack for saying that. Our innocent Japanese brothers and sisters are of the finest character and demonstrate the finest of all virtues. Forgiveness. They do it because they understand the big picture. They do it because they understood then and now that America means something more only when it’s leaders are willing to value what the people value. No one in America is free if we all aren’t willing to be scrutinized for what we have in common. Diversity is only a virtue when our differences bring us together. The day your differences threaten the inalienable rights of the whole, you need to go. You need to be judged and you need to be punished, exiled or executed.

I purport that it is time those decision makers in Washington decide that until we hear from the Islamic community on where they stand in regards to freedom, democracy, individual rights and the rule of law, that we should increase the pressure on them in ways that allow them a way to define themselves and align themselves with the American ideal.

You said: “The blog environment prevents full knowledge about anyone's intent. However, if we don't have common ground in our discussions and treat each other with respect, whatever your political leaning, then there is no way to proceed in argument.”

And

“I do think that a tone of civility and an assumption that other people are not the enemy is the best way to function argumentatively, which I think you do struggle with in terms of tone.”

Your assumption that other people are not the enemy, and your unwillingness to be able to morally define this heinous act is what got my attention to your post in the first place. My directness comes as a shock to many who don’t live in a world of absolutes. Relax, I am harmless. I do not recall attacking your character, just your thinking.

You are the sum total of your thoughts. In the beginning of this post, you stated something that revealed part of who you are. That’s the power of words. You say what you say because of who you are. To argue against your words is to argue against you.

The fact that you are now telling me that you don’t like my tone, sounds like equal parts disagreement and discomfort because someone is taking your words seriously. You said it, I didn’t.

I think it might be you who should reconsider this forum. If you can’t stand the heat….look at that goofy guy tomreed. He thinks I work for the RNC when I actually am clergy. Go figure.

I have found that OS keeps me sharp. I welcome disagreement as long as the “ad hominem” can be supported. When talking about controversial topics, I expect my ideas and character to be scrutinized, or I wouldn’t be here.

I re-read my last comment to you. I am the one who has recommended reading, I am the one who has tried to temper his comments with words of comfort like, “.No insult intended”. Did you think I was kidding? Deliberate yes. Attacking character, no. Peace.

Philos, I wasn't accusing you of attacking my character. In fact, it wasn't directed fully to you, but tomreed, and the other people who have commented on this blog. I was trying to say if you and anyone else want to make ad hominem attacks or have an uncivil tone, then another forum such as pm or your blog or theirs would be better than my own blog post which had the focus of the funeral itself. If you want to continue to discuss this, and the problems of making a judgment, I would welcome a private discussion on private messages. Otherwise, I want other people to feel welcome to respond to this particular post for what it is, not just what you would like to discuss, but other discussions that could be had about this subject. I stand by the claim that you have continued to make unwarranted assumptions about my thinking and motives which reflects your own flawed premises and your own particular epistemology.
--Melissa
PS--
I see Hasan as a murderer, and I don't have enough evidence to know if he is a terrorist, i.e. working in consort with others to terrorize a community based on his political beliefs. If evidence like what came out about the Oklahoma bomber is offered up, I would be willing to label him a terrorist. Feel free to post evidence from news sources that _proves_ he had a political motive that wasn't rooted in mental illness; I would be willing to read it.

Melissa, I can tell you have a sensitive heart and you are gracious to request a private discussion. This will be my last comments. Most of my “unwarranted assumptions about your thinking and motives” have not been rebutted, just rejected. You simply refuse to respond to them, which leads me to think that I am more correct than you may want to admit. Our thoughts are all we have. They are the sum total of who we are. When you express your perspective in an open forum and then someone passionately disagrees with your perspective, you should expect them to be challenged by people with a different epistemology.

I find your opinion of my “flawed premises” sort of funny in that’s how I feel about you.

I stand by my statement that “Your assumption that other people are not the enemy, and your unwillingness to be able to morally define this heinous act is what got my attention to your post in the first place. My directness comes as a shock to many who don’t live in a world of absolutes.”

We will have to agree to disagree. Yes, Hasan is a murderer. In my opinion, there is ample evidence to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that his motivation was religiously, politically and ideologically based and his intention was to lash out against who he thought was his enemy based on that ideology. I think there is enough evidence to show that he was in communication with other Muslim extremists and they supported and reinforced his ideology. Under the strictest definition, he qualifies as a terrorist.

I think there is a mindset in America that somehow believes that there is nothing we can do to thwart this type of thing without infringing on every ones rights. That is a road we must go down. We must, if we are going to survive as a nation and as a culture, decide which are the values we are going to hold higher. Are we going to protect the innocents? Are we going to judge and investigate those in the military who make outlandish threatening statements? This guy was a recently promoted Officer in the United States Army. They should have weeded out this “terrorist waiting to happen” a long time ago.

I stand firmly in the camp that gives the benefit of the doubt to the laws and those trying to protect us. I purpose in my mind to not get embittered towards any group or religion or sect, until, like Hasan, they make it impossible to see anything else. Nice talking to ya, Peace