Grazing Sheeple

nugacity at its finest
OCTOBER 21, 2008 6:17PM

Sarah Palin is a Cunt (Now with YouTube Goodness) + Update

Rate: 30 Flag
Obama supporters

 


Update on 21 Oct 2008 1714 CST:  To those linking over from Slate, please realize that this post was written before I became aware that Rhiannon Volpe had been trying for weeks to get publicity for her shirts in an effort to make $$$ off of sexist hate.  Please see this post for the details:

Sarah Palin is a Cunt shirts a Cynical Bid to Make $$$

As this original post is OBE, I have turned the comments off.

 

***************************

 

This is sexist and wrong.  Can you justify this any more than that stuffed monkey doll with the Obama sticker on its head carried by a man in the crowd at a McCain rally can be justified?   Or the photo I saw here on OS of a man on a motorcycle with the "Nigger please, it's the White House" t-shirt that upset so many? 

Why is Obama not controlling his supporters? 

Perhaps neither candidate can control their supporters?   If that is true and candidates cannot control every single supporter, then why is everyone upset with Senator McCain, but not Senator Obama?   Why is a racial slur made by a mere supporter more important than a gender slur made by a mere supporter campaign volunteer?  (Updated based on the information provided by Politico and Senator Obama's website)

Or is the outrage only partisan in nature? 

Am I being overly cynical by thinking Senator Obama won't be apologizing for this anytime soon?  Or will I be suprised by his public condemnation of this gross act by his supporters that only fosters hate?

 

a blurry four
 
 
This YouTube was posted two hours ago and has additional information about where and how the shirts are being worn and by whom.  Can't vouch for the veracity:
 

 
Updated at 0037 CST 13 Oct:
 
The kids in the photos are Obama supporters but one at least claims to be a Libertarian.   They are not Republicans.

I found this at Politico:

October 12, 2008
Categories: Barack Obama

Jake Tapper's questions answered

The ridiculously industrious Jake Tapper asks who the people are who showed up outside a Palin event in Philadelphia with t-shirts whose neon green lettering carried a particularly taboo slur about Palin.

I mentioned the shirts in passing earlier, and one of their creators, emailing under the name Rhiannon Volpe, objected to my suggestion that she was a Democrat:

I personally am a registered Libertarian, supporting Obama this year. Palin is the last woman I want to hold a political office right now. Her lack of common sense, cruel treatment to animals, and just plain ignorance to what we (Americans, and even women) really care about is absolutely frustrating. The point of wearing the shirt to me is just a bold way of saying that she certainly is not liked or one of "us." To play the gender card is irrelevant, because I am a woman who wears the tshirt anyway.

She added that McCain had, reportedly, used the word himself, "so is it really that offensive?" And she said none of the people pictured were Democrats.

She's also selling the shirts online, part of a line of ironical Philly hipster gear.

************************

I went to Senator Obama's web site and found the volunteer page of Rhiannon Marie Volpe.  Coincidentally it matches the page shown in the YouTube:
 
Volpe on Obama web site

 

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LT: I'm so glad that this was the tone of this post. I was so afraid that it was going to be yet another ugly attack.
Thanks.
rated
LT,

I have seen worse things, done in very limited editions (sorry I do not have pictures) and i think there is no way on either side for there to be control exerted. Shit-heads will be shit-heads regardless.

Are these shirts being mass produced? Are they in limited production?
I'm guessing that Obama's response (or not) will depend on whether he's aware of this particular incident or, sadly, how much press it gets. It's clearly not right, but how widespread is this kind of blatantly sexist commentary? Has Obama encouraged it? Was this at a rally? I don't think candidates can control their own followers, although they certainly can and should speak out against this kind of crap.
Your point - well taken, but the problem in this particular instance is that Sara Palin IS a cunt, and Obama is NOT a nigger.

For an UGLY attack, that is nonetheless true, take a look-see at "Sarah Palin Is A White Trash Ho(e)-Down" over at my neck of the cyber-woods.
Walker, glad I can surprise you.

Gary, I fall in the "you can't control shitheads" camp with you and I am convinced both sides have more than their fair share of shitheads. However, if Senator McCain is to be held responsible for his shitheads, then Senator Obama must be held accountable as well. Andrea Mitchel just asked if the candidate (McCain) was doing enough to draw the line. Why is that not being asked about Senator Obama?

The shirts are for sale here.
Buckeyedoc, reportedly supporters of Senator Obama are going to Republican rallies wearing such shirts and yelling worse. I am waiting for the Youtubes to hit as Republicans carry cell phones and cameras and use the internet just like Democratic voters do.

So let's see if this shithead supporter behavior is treated with the same gravitas and media concern as the shithead Republican supporters are being treated.

Xero, your comment here makes you part of the problem. What you just wrote puts you squarely in the shithead category. Feel free to come back and retract your comment as I'd like to believe you are intelligent enough to understand.
If we are going to win the election, we absolutely CANNOT be acting like this. This is exactly the type of nasty campaigning that I despise in Republicans. I like to think the Democrats pride themselves on being humble and focused on the issues rather than blatant and outrageous attacks on the opponents. The next few weeks are crucial and we must maintain our professionalism and candor until we clinch this election.
I would be offended to see someone wearing this, so point well taken. However, wouldn't it be worse to hear people chanting, "Cunt!" at an Obama rally if he mentioned Palin, and the followed by "Kill her!" or "Rape her!" in unison? Aren't there probably lots of gross t-shirts on both sides, but only one candidate where the mob mentality gains a considerable amount of momentum because of television and the web? Food for thought. Ugly no matter how you cut it. Rated.
Xero please don't.

I don't like Palin, won't vote for her, don't approve of her actions, hate her lack of judgment and misuse of power, and truly am worried about the country's future if she wins. However, calling her sexist names is no more acceptable than calling Obama racist names.

Nice bait L.T.
Am I the only one who thinks Xero was joking?
I think the big question is - where were they wearing these shirts? If they were in the front row of an Obama rally, I hope he would call them out and condemn it. He’s tried to raise the level of discourse by his personal actions. If it is not happening in his presence, it is unreasonable to expect him to respond to it.

However, I feel that it is our responsibility as his supporters to tell these people to stop it. They are only sinking to the level of the “kill him”-“terrorist”-yelling-McCain-supporters, and that is inexcusable, from either side.
Xero if you are joking it is not funny.

This is bait. You are a fish.

Now you are fish that can be quoted out of context.
It's getting near the end, and it's getting wild. And if you look at the bumper stickers and such that have been sold for the past few years around Union Square about Bush and Dick-- you might have been prepared for this.
BTW, did you need to use the exact title for your heading?
Just as people will be people, shitheads will be shitheads regardless. While I agree the shirts are offensive, they should embarrass the assholes wearing them and not Obama.
However, I will and do draw the line at calling for someone's assassination. That is not only unacceptable but it is inherently dangerous in these trying times with all the nutcases around.

McCain is not responsible for his supporters, but he IS responsible for the the negativity and hate he and Palin have stirred up.

Rated/appreciated - and you suckered me in as well, although I did not think you'd be blasting Palin like that (just doesn't seem like your nature). But I had to peek anyway - can't resist looking at the accident, you know.
Sue DiPigrafa, from what I am reading on right leaning sites, Obama supporters are going to Republican rallies sporting shirts and signs like this. Not sure if they are wearing them to Obama rallies. I have appointments starting soon and won't be able to dig more until later.

Dorinda Fox, I learned as a pup that titles matter and yes I have an overly dramatic nature at times.

Molly Gun, thank you for getting it.

Buckeyedoc, If Xero is joking I apologize. I have not had time to check out that neck of the woods.

undertow, two prominent female comics who support Senator Obama have publicly called for forced sexual congress with Palin. Cho and Bernhart. Is a prominent supporter like a celebrity of Cho and Berhart's stature being a shithead a bigger deal than a mere supporter in a crowd?
Lane, I am often called a muckraker here. I noticed no one has called the OS posters who use nigger in their titles on the use of the word. Is cunt more offensive than nigger?

BillS, Some people put rape (forced sexual relations) up there with murder. At one point the death penalty was a legal sentence for convicted rapists. The military hung a man for rape as recently as the 1960s. Yes, the soldier was black. And no, I do not think death is appropriate in rape cases, but I am also not a sitting judge (yet). Senator Obama's supporters have called for the rape of Palin.
Wouldn't it be better to just to ignore sexist and racist morons if they all can do is print a T-shirt? Giving them attention only encourages them. I find it astounding that either candidate would spend even 10 seconds on a vulgar and unimaginative slur against the other side.

Whose holding McCain accountable for his supporters?
"Senator Obama's supporters have called for the rape of Palin."

Really??? The only criticisms I've been hearing about her from Obama supporters have been her lack of experience, apparent lack of intelligence in interviews, less than pro-woman stance, possible religious zealotry, and the nastiness in her speeches. I'm not doubting there are jackasses out there, but that has got to be incredibly rare.
Senator Obama's supporters have called for the rape of Palin.

Apparently that one isn't making the sound bites. If that's the case, LT, then Obama should be up on his tippy toes denouncing that. The candidates have to draw the line and draw it clearly. This shit is totally unacceptable.
Chiron, I have heard nothing but criticism of Senator McCain for not controlling his supporter's racism. Just as a for example, Kieth Olberman's ad on MSNBC for his show tonight is essentially did Senator McCain say too little too late... The Sunday talking heads did nothing but talk about it - even on Fox. I saw the clip of the female McCain supporter talking to McCain at a town hall saying she didn't trust Senator Obama because he is an Arab over and over on all the stations. I could list the newspaper pundits. I could list the OS posters. But you can find them just as easily yourself.

Senator McCain is a bad, bad man for not controlling his shitheads has been a media meme since Friday. Of course they don't say shitheads. I got that from Gary.
There is a huge difference between cries of "Kill him" carried out in the presence of McCain and Palin, and the wearing of t-shirts at an undisclosed scene which Obama may be totally aware of.

But I'm pretty sure you knew that before you blogged this flamebaiting crap.
This reminds me of the little squirt of a kid fighting the big brute of a bully: the little kid manages to get one lame hit in amongst the brutish barrage, and the teacher, having watched it all, doles out punishment in equal measure, scolding them both with, "Shame on you, fighting like that!" They have to sit in detention together, and brute gloats.

To be clear: I think these Palin shirts are reprehensible. Disgusting, in fact. There's no call for them. But a few people standing lamely around in vulgar t-shirts is a far cry from mass unchecked chanting at the rally.

No one has stood up in front of the mic at an Obama rally and said, "I'm scared for our country because... because... Palin is a cunt!" No one is talking about Palin's bloodlines. Cunt is offensive, for sure. I don't like it one bit. But it's not comparable to "nigger" or "terroritst." The latter two carry with them bucket-loads of history steeped in violence, lynchings, bombings, killings, and a culture of hate. Cunt is offensive, but it's just nowhere near the same thing. And that's even IF Obama supporters were chanting it at rallies, which of course they are not. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if anyone tried to wear these shirts to an actual Obama rally, they'd be asked to leave, and if necessary, forcibly removed.

I'd also be willing to bet that Palin isn't fearing for her life right now. No one is worried that some crazed Obama fan is going to shoot her because she's a "cunt".

But most importantly, Obama has never once said one single thing that could be construed by even the most irrational person as whipping up hostility against Palin. He's defended her and her family on several occasions. From what I've seen, he stays far away from any kind of mention of her. So when Palin stands up on that stage feeding an angry crowd lines like, "pals around with terrorists," then yes, she should be held accountable for the inevitable nastiness that ensues.
Why is Obama not controlling his supporters?

He can no more "control" his supporters than McNasty or Palin can control theirs.

Control is a personal issue.
I guess if I palled around with Bernhard or Cho, I'd have heard it. I'd hardly call them typical Obama supporters. They are quasi-comedians.
Wow, those shirts are awful. How can those people go out in public with that? Provocative post, but I have to agree with Stellaa that the muck, racism, and sexism that the campaigns are dragging us through is only taking the focus off of the economy and the war. I agree that addressing sexism and racism is important, though.

By the way, this is slightly off topic, but have you ever seen the Cunt Coloring Book?
what marple said.

yes, there is violence against women and it should not be tolerated. these T-shirts are an aberration, not the rule. Palin incites all sorts of strong feelings because she is nasty, power-hungry, and small-minded, not because she is a woman. Yes, there is misogyny and sexism in the campaign. But, it has been a very long time since women were killed, burned, lynched simply for being women.

The other main difference is that there has always been undercurrents of racism and sexism in this campaign. It is just that the racism and xenophobia directed at Obama, and some of it directed by the campaign has risen to a level where it is beginning to feel dangerous and likely to incite violence.

one more note to Stellaa's comments - you are right. to a point. The economy is the central issue. But a close reading of history will show that it was Germany's economic crisis and slide in standing after WWI that allowed Hitler's nationalistic brand of fascism to come to power. I don't think the potential parallel should be ignored.
Who said she deserved it?
This is the idiots being idiots. It should not be acknowledged.

More damaging and more subversive than this kind of childishness is the type of Rovian back door attacks that are emanating from McCain supporters (and previously Hillary supporters) unchecked. I can't tell you how many times I've heard about "the birth certificate" while canvasing over the past week. People actually believe this "obama has a photo-shopped birth certificate" crap.

Those t-shirts are disgustingly lame attempts at humor/irony. Nothing more. If you're going to take an unconventional approach to protest, at least be a little creative. But, if I'm underestimating these folks and they actually do have brains, they would have to be third party supporters like you, LT, right? What better way to both anger Republicans and make Democrats look terrible?

My roommate attended a giant D.C. protest rally before the Iraq invasion. Rev. Jackson spoke at the event. My roommate and his friend attached a giant six-framed poster to a chain link fence that stated "Nuke their ass and take their gas." He and his buddy "guarded" the poster dressed in leather jackets and ray-bans while sipping out of starbucks coffee cups. He and his friend were both anti-war indymedia/anti-government types, but so many people took them seriously, some even offering to fight them. I thought that was funny.
Frankly, I think this plays into the hands of Rove and the other Republican masterminds.

The more we hate each other, the more divided we are as a nation. If we are splintered into millions of tiny, bitter little groups of “Kill him”-yellers, and “Cunt”-T-shirt wearers, Arab-haters, “mommy wars” criers, and city people making fun of rural people, and rural people making fun of city people, and “fuck the south” website creators, and Dixie-chick-protestors, and every other cruel and angry faction - the less likely we are to unite, get together and do *anything* about anything that REALLY MATTERS. We’ll keep taking it up the ass from Wall Street, from our health insurance companies, from our employers, you name it.

They have achieved their goal - Divide and conquer.
Obama and McCain cannot control their supporters, but they can denounce their actions. And it is definitely their job to search for actions that need denouncing, not just let them percolate on the side and claim "if I'd *known* of course I would have objected." The Obama camp is wide and deep -if they don't already know about this they will by the end of the day, and Obama - not his spokespeople, needs to say "Anyone who thinks its ok to express these sorts of views, I don't want your vote."
yeah, the more I analyze those grainy photos, the more I am convinced that those four idiots are Nader supporters who think that they are being ironic.
I just want to see if a blog post with the "c-word" in the title can make the cover or at least be top rated...
Senator Obama's supporters have called for the rape of Palin.

I've been chewing on this one for a bit, LT. One thing disturbs me more than anything else - Senator Obama isn't encouraging his supporters to kill anyone. I haven't heard a single sound bite anywhere of Obama supporters screaming for McCain's or Palin's death. Did I miss something?
And no, I don't think it would be acceptable if Obama or Biden suggested that committing sexual assault on another candidate (whether or not it was Palin) was a good idea, but so far they haven't nor have they encouraged the kind of skinhead ranting that seems to take place at the Replican rallies. That's why I think things are relatively quiet in the media regarding Democratic shitheads - they either aren't as obvious or aren't as vocal; and apparently, they aren't as numerous either.
As for Bernhard/Cho, well using the former in the same sentence as "comedian" is questionable; as for the latter, I haven't heard much about/from her lately - have you? Maybe that would explain the current rant (of hers).
no one said she deserved it. I hate that word.

And the rape charges, I have not heard them. And no one deserves that.

my point and others was that a disgusting, offensive, vulgar, misogynist T-shirt is not in the same category of a coordinated campaign to incite fear, racial animosity, and potentially violence.

LT is suggesting that Obama has the same responsibility that McCain has for this irresponsible behavior and I think that is wrong. With regard to Palin, Obama's campaign has not gone there. McCain's has (the Franklin Raines ad, "palling around with terrorists," there are numerouse examples) and thus has a great deal more of a hand in this.
This post is BS.

The implication of the post is that there is a moral equivalency between the Obama and McCain campaigns.

To do this, the poster finds some offensive Obama supporters, then uses a shock technique to get his post noticed.

But there is no moral equivalence between the campaigns.

The issue isn’t the nasty things that some supporters of McCain-Palin, or Obama-Biden, do or say.

The issue is whether the campaigns themselves are consciously, purposefully, inciting such behavior through their official advertising and rhetoric.

There is no need here to rehash Palin’s own “Obama is paling around with terrorists” rhetoric or McCain’s own winking question “Who is Barack Obama?”

The McCain-Palin campaign has attempted to create, manipulate and capitalize a mob mentality of racism and resentment.

Indeed, having failed to rally voters on policy issues, racism, xenophobia, and terrorist-baiting smears are now what the official McCain-Palin campaign is all about.

There is no equivalence in the Obama campaign.
Michael Fox, I agree that there is no moral equivalence between the campaigns.

I also think that the people in the pictures are either 1.) complete idiots trying to be"cute" or 2.) sarcastic third party supporters like LT BOHICA trying to be ironic.

However, I do not think that the post is entirely BS. LT B has a role, even if the good officer goes over the top occasionally to get the message across.

And Michael, further evidence about the Republicans systematic courting of the racist vote, take a look at this recent Saxby Chambliss re-election ad and notice the not so subtle image old Georgia flag (which has not been the state flag since before Saxby took office).
Saxby is the man that paved the way for the 2004 Swiftboaters with his backhand suggestions that sitting Democratic Senator and triple amputee Max Cleland had actually blown himself up while drunkenly tinkering with a grenade in Vietnam. And Saxby's the one who infamously linked his opponent directly to Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein in t.v. ads in 2002.
Gallant, and the Nigger please t-shirt post here on OS was some how not flame baiting crap, but astute social observation? Your comment there was My new Tee says, "Honky Please, He's only Half Black". Feel free to apologize for your hypocrisy.

Stellaa, yes, it is the economy and all else is distraction. I got out of my box and posted on the No Banker Left Behind Pork while you were busy and those posts were met with yawns compared to this bit of "flame bait crap."

Marple, uppity women are beaten down and murdered every couple of minutes here in the United States. Governor Palin has just as much to fear as Senator Obama. Our country hates women and blacks and it is interesting how the corporate owned parties have managed to expose that hate in large segments of our society. Just because you think cunt is less offensive than nigger does not make it so.

Lonnie Lazar, I agree. Shitheads are beyond the control of Senator McCain and Senator Obama, but yet some how the media seems to think Senator McCain should be able to control the shitheads.
That youtube video is garbage. To bait LT Bohica one more time (why aren't you biting), I again suggest that the people behind these shirts and/or the people wearing them are more than likely third party/anti-government types stabbing at "irony."
I don't condone this. Stooping to the level of your opponent with trash talk is not a way to win the hearts and minds of people, whether it is McCain supporters using race or religion mislabeling or Obama supporters using this characterization for Palin. They are diversions from what the topics should be in this election.
Can we please get back on what should be the real topics for discussion?
Scruffus, I will check it out asap. It sounds like a great birthday present for the women in my life.

lpsrocks, What is honor killing? It happens all over the world and it happens here in the United States. What is sati? What do you call the murder of a pregnant woman when the killer says he did it because he loved her/didn't love her/didn't want a baby/or whatever dumb ass excuse he says? What do you call the murder of female infants in China? Woman are beaten and killed all the time for being women. I'm surprised you wrote what you did considering.

buckeyedoc, if Senator McCain is being held accountable for mere anonymous shitheads at his rally, why are public figure comedian shithead supporters not Senator Obama's responsibility? Note that I don't think either man can control these people. I'm just trying to make the point that there is no fairness here and all the shitheads are, well, shitheads.
These t-shirts are awful. What McCain/Palin say
about Obama doesn't excuse them.
I saw the Sandra Bernhardt "Palin being gang raped
by black men" on YouTube a month ago. Completely
appalling. The audience was laughing, I hope
out of embarrassment for Bernhardt because she
sure did look ugly making those comments. I'm
REALLY sorry to hear that Cho said them also.
I would think African American males would
denounce them as well, they are clearly racist.

Edgar Alverson - I have a hard time believing
that Nader supporters would wear those t-shirts.
Not their style.

Perhaps Xero is a republican plant. Whatever, she
/he is beyond the pale.

Michael Fox: Who indeed is Barack Obama? He
has compared himself to Lincoln, JFK, RFK,
MLK, Gandhi, Mandela. But who is he?Why is
McCain saying that racist? How does Palin
stating that Obama pals around with terrorists
(true or not) become a racist statement?

I think Obama should be very wary of his own
true believing followers who think he is he
be all and end all of human existence. What if he
disappoints them? Wasn't Mark David
Chapman a fan of Lennon's? How about the
Tejano singer Selena being killed by the
president of her fan club?
Edgar, thank you for your patience. The YouTube outs the wearers as Obama supporters at a rally Palin appeared at. Further, I found a blog that captured the image before one of the guys in it took it off his blog and deleted the post. The blog that captured the image suggested the original poster had been very proud of the t-shirt at the time of the post and that his deleting it was telling. The YouTube also has a screen shot of an Obama campaign volunteer modeling the shirt on her Obama campaign site page.

Third party people are too busy trying to get any mention at all in the media to bother with silly ops like you describe, but I appreciate your devious mind.

I'm not sure if I am going over the hill first, but I did notice the general tone and tenor of many recent posts here at OS and many comments that blame Senator McCain for the failings of his shithead supporters and thought it would be a little conscious raising to show the unclean hands of some of the shitheads supporting Senator Obama.

Sue DiPigrafa, you and Stellaa have broken the code. Look It! Look It! The t-shirt says Cunt or the T-shirt says Nigger! Never mind us while we loot your wallet and the wallet of three future generations for our corporate masters.
LT, I think the only difference is that McCain-Palin were kind of egging it on at the rallies by talking about Ayers, and who-is-Obama, and by allowing speakers to say Barack HUSSEIN Obama. They were deliberately riling people up against Obama, leading supporters to shout hateful things about him right to McCain and Palin's faces at the rallies, to which they weren't responding until a couple of days ago. The crowds were plain unruly and enraged. I think in that situation, a response was warranted. I wouldn't hold them responsible for a T-shirt incident (like the infamous "It's the White House" shirt).

Obama never speaks ill of Palin or encourages anti-McCain-Palin rage at rallies, to my knowledge.
No, Dorinda. I'm not above being a baited fish, but I'm not one here. That's exactly what I think, without the P.C. Make-over. No one could possibly quote me out of context. But thanks for the head's up.
Edgar, Also -- would you say the guy on the motorcycle with the Nigger please T-shirt is wearing "a lame attempt at humor/irony?" No. You would call it like it is - racist bullshit from a shithead. How is this cunt t-shirt any different? It is not. It is sexist bullshit from a shithead.

Michael Fox, I have gone and read your most recent post and it seems you are the sort who expects Senator McCain to control all of his supporters. So am not surprised by the ten tons of crap and hypocrisy in your comment here. Sure you prettify your posts up and only allude and suggest, but I am not a fool. I read the tags and in the tag you lay out what you prance around in the body.

"Moral Equivalency" is lawyer double speak for "I am a partisan hack who holds the opposition to a higher and verily an impossible standard." As a fellow attorney I laugh at you.

Go back to your page and incite your readership to further heights of resentment and hate of them evil Republicans who are merely puppets just like the Democrats. You are not enlightened enough for me to waste more time on.

John Steiner, the powers that be want us to be absorbed in this petty bullshit while they rape the treasury and laugh. The media is owned by the same corporate web that is pulling the strings and hence their preoccupation.
Sandra Miller, the initial blogs with these photos are over a month old. It will be interesting to watch this spread on the net and to see if it crosses over into the MSM.

Buckeyedoc, I will also be amused to see Cunt on the OS cover.

DakiniDancer, thanks for stopping by. I hope that who ever wins in November is protected from all the crazies on all sides. Too many gifted leaders have been lost to crazies and not just in our country.

Buckeyedoc comment three, I think both parties have encouraged rage. It may not be the same sort of rage, but it is still deep anger and irrational fear of the other none the less.

I think I have caught up with the comments here. Sadly I was the third car in a four car pile up recently and must be away from my computer the rest of the afternoon sorting out insurance, repairs, blah, blah, blah. My need to take a break from the conversation is by no means my ignoring you.
"Edgar, Also -- would you say the guy on the motorcycle with the N***** please T-shirt is wearing "a lame attempt at humor/irony?" No. You would call it like it is - racist bullshit from a shithead. How is this c*** t-shirt any different? It is not. It is sexist bullshit from a shithead."

I agree completely.
However, I think that the wearers of both shirts have more in common with the people who enjoy donning a "Fuck You" t-shirt and walking around Six Flags all day than they do with the supporters of a particular campaign.

They don't necessarily have to be third party or democrat. This could be the derisive "irony" of the anti-government/everybody sucks/south park crowd. (by the way, the giant douche v. turd sandwich 2004 election south park episode is the best one ever).

Of course, all the people wearing and printing these shirts are assholes and shitheads.
and you can do anything with the web or youtube, just ask Rob.
Lindsay, are you reclaiming the word "cunt" like in The Vagina Monologues? :)
Someone once said: "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" The someone was Oliver Wendell Holmes. Supreme Court Justice and Republican.

This stuff is offensive beyond the pale. We should exercise our own right to free speech by speaking out against this. I want Sarah Palin to go back to Alaska so she can be impeached and thrown out of office in disgrace. I will never condone this kind of slur.

By the way, it's not sexist, just offensive.
Yeah, I don't like the shirts. Both 'cunt' and 'nigger' are repulsive things to say. As 'rape her' or 'kill him' are as well.

There's one difference. Obama himself is not standing up on the podium and alluding to this in regards to Sarah Palin. Some turds came up with this on their own, no baiting required.

Palin and McCain have been baiting the crowds with lies to get them to react, all the while knowing it was a problem to do so and could have serious repercussions. To me, that difference is very, very significant in regards to the candidates themselves. That's why it's made the news.

That said, I hope that Obama hears about this and has that worker remove that picture from his site.
Oh, and I hope you're okay, LT. Yuck. A four car pile up?
For me, the big difference between these hipsters with their obnoxious t-shirts, and the footage of the Ohio McCain supporters is that I don't fear that these hipsters would ever try to assassinate a VP Palin. I can't say the same for the Ohio mob, that's for sure.

Plus, Obama has never engaged in rhetoric that would inspire his followers to violence, let alone t-shirts displaying sexist slurs. McCain and Palin both have engaged in rhetoric that has inspired their followers to feel comfortable expressing their bigotry, obviously.

So the two situations are far from equivalent. The Obama You Tube you posted here is just straw man nonsense.
Apparently you didn't understand me at all, Stellaa.

What those kids did is reprehensible. But there is a big difference between obnoxious mischief, and hate-based violence.

I do agree with you that we shouldn't be spending much time on this. I hesitated to comment at all in the first place.
... and the Nigger please t-shirt post here on OS was some how not flame baiting crap, but astute social observation? Your comment there was My new Tee says, "Honky Please, He's only Half Black". Feel free to apologize for your hypocrisy.

Sorry, no apology will be offered, as there is no hypocrisy involved. I never said that the "Nigger please..." Tee was "astute social observation", those are your words, not mine. Just because I do not go on record identifying every flamebait post does not in any way lessen the accuracy of my observation that this blog of yours is flamebaiting crap. Make of that what you will.

BTW, if you are indeed "of councel" I would hazard a guess that you do not practice adversarial law, as your attempts to support your views are pathetic at best.
Uhhh. . . so how come everyone is so sure these are Obama supporters wearing the tee-shirts. Couldn't they be in the Bob Barr camp? (not saying anything is wrong with the newly minted Barr, by the way)

As for the video, well, photoshop is an amazing and versatile program. And just how did the video producer find that particular post on the Obama website. Did the volunteer tell him "yes, you can find my inflammatory photo at this URL?"

Notice the name was cleverly blocked out so as to be unverifiable. Do you really think the video creator would be concerned about protecting the identity of the "Obama Volunteer?" Give me a break.

Naw, kids, I believe it is a smarmy attempt by dirty tricksters in the McCain campaign to take the attention away from the rancid attitudes of their own supporters by creating a phony situation.

Did you listen to the tone of voice on the video? Listen to it again. That wasn't someone outraged. That was no passion there. It was scripted. And I bet it was scripted and read by those Publican rascals who knew it was their own flunkies dressed up as nasty Obama supporters.
Lindsay Hoffman, cunt has different meanings to different people. I think Lea Lane was offended I used it in the title for example while you don't seem perturbed at all. I don't think it is fair to assume it is just as horribly offensive to some women as nigger is to some black people. I know it drives my mom up the wall. To her there is no bigger insult.

Wayne Gallant, I've been lucky to have a varied career. At one time I specialized in defending men accused of child sexual abuse. Many were looking at possible multiple life sentences, but the most any of my clients ever served was two years and most got off entirely. It was what it was. I was doing my job. Now I pretty much write wills and deal with property issues. It is much cleaner work. I can appreciate why you would get personal in your insults. Having your double standard exposed with that quote from the other post must have stung.

Michael, why do you think it is not sexist?

Brinna, I have done more looking around since I posted this. The kids in the photos are Obama supporters but one at least claims to be a Libertarian. They are not Republicans.

I found this at Politico:

The ridiculously industrious Jake Tapper asks who the people are who showed up outside a Palin event in Philadelphia with t-shirts whose neon green lettering carried a particularly taboo slur about Palin.

I mentioned the shirts in passing earlier, and one of their creators, emailing under the name Rhiannon Volpe, objected to my suggestion that she was a Democrat:

I personally am a registered Libertarian, supporting Obama this year. Palin is the last woman I want to hold a political office right now. Her lack of common sense, cruel treatment to animals, and just plain ignorance to what we (Americans, and even women) really care about is absolutely frustrating. The point of wearing the shirt to me is just a bold way of saying that she certainly is not liked or one of "us." To play the gender card is irrelevant, because I am a woman who wears the tshirt anyway.

She added that McCain had, reportedly, used the word himself, "so is it really that offensive?" And she said none of the people pictured were Democrats.

She's also selling the shirts online, part of a line of ironical Philly hipster gear.


I went to Senator Obama's web site and found the volunteer page of Rhiannon Marie Volpe. Coincidentally it matches the page in the YouTube. I am not as nice as the maker of the Youtube and have posted the screen capture above.

Odetteroulette, the car I was driving is petty messed up, but I was wearing a seat belt and walked away. Such things happen, but yes - it was rather yuck.
Stellaa, I am constantly amazed at the way people will excuse their own side for the same crap they decry loudly from their opposition. Tribalism at its best.
Michael Fox, I made one mistake in my reply to your lovely and ever so polite comment. I left a "s" off one word. Post should have read posts. This matters as your latest post is a sentimental bit that deviates from your favorite subject matter, intimating that McCain is a racist and Obama is perfect. The truth is they are both corporate pawns and suck pretty much equally despite all your protestations otherwise. You call this post BS, but it is your whole blog that is full of shit.
This whole conversation is disgusting. I wish I could get my time back.
I thought I wouldn't rise to the bait, but this stuff is pretty asinine, even by your standards.

If you are indeed a lawyer (you seem to me more of a Googlehound), the evidence here is pretty thin, no? To me it seems equally probable that the whole thing is some kind of a hoax or plant.

The straw man here is that Obama has to "control" or "take responsibility" for his supporters. It is far from proven that these people were or are his supporters.. And it should be axiomatic that there are weirdos on both sides e.g. I've encountered more than one person who thinks that McCain was "turned" by the North Vietnamese, had a cushy billet in Hanoi etc. But none of these people, as far as I know, are yelling "Kill the traitorous spy McCain" at Obama rallies.

The moral equivalence charge is the operative one.

You'd have to come up with the equivalent of Hate on Parade at an Obama event i.e. people streaming through the turnstiles yelling "Palin is a c***" to make your case.

And you'd have to show me Obama or Biden inciting such behavior, or standing idly by and even smirking while their supporters (per se, if they got through the metal detectors at "invitation only" rallies) spew hatred and filth.

Till then, this is just another of your shit-stirring posts.

WOOF
Lindsay Hoffman, ::swoon:: I am also partial to salty language and any post on OS containing profanity gets an automatic rating and has ever since the last we must clean up discourse around the site campaign got started.

I think you get the point of this post though which is that neither campaign should be expected to control their shitheads and that both campaigns has shitheads be they "little bitty hipsters" or "scary white people."

Having cunt in the title was just a joyful coincidence having nothing to do with my irritation with the clean up brigade around OS. Indeed. And if you won't tell my mother what I am up to on this site, I surely see no need to mention your embrace of all things cunty.
Lindsay Hoffman, I haunt a blog called Shakespeare's Sister. It is the best feminist commentary on the web. I learn something new every time I click over. The founder of the site is Elizabeth McEwan. She is often called a cunt by fauxgressive men who can't handle uppity women. In her efforts to reclaim the word, she has taken to calling herself Queen Cunt of Fuck Mountain. So I do understand why you want to lessen the impact of the word down to the level of dick. The difference of course is that a penis is a source of power and privilege. Being called a dick acknowledges the status of the man insulted in the sense that he at least has a dick, a blessed penis. Where as women are stinky, smelly, slime trail leaving, no dick having cunts. Cunt serves to put women in their place and dismiss them and I am sure the men in your life are probably blown away by your willingness to embrace such a "taboo" word.
CCC, I don't understand why you insist on taking a crap on my blog. This is the second time you have traipsed your sorry self over here and done just that.

It makes me want to rip you a new asshole, but I am trying to turn over a new leaf. I even waited a while after reading your idiotic comment before starting a reply.

But never mind those silly new me intentions. You shit on me. I will shit on you. First you insult me by suggesting I am lying about being an attorney. You are a mother fucking asshole and I mean it.

I paid my academic dues, took the bar, passed with ease, and inflicted my legal expertise on many a client for years. Now I can afford to only see clients I wish to deal with when I wish to deal with them. Not that my professional credentials have a damn thing to do with the content of this blog. Especially when they are called into question by a fucktard who masquerades as a dog.

Beware the Yellow Dog indeed. I took Latin in high school and your silly affectations do not amuse me at all.

You are a big time supporter of Senator Obama. As such you do not seem to be able to be impartial or fair when you evaluate blogs that are critical of your candidate. It is shit like yours that needs to be stirred.

Not only is Volpe a supporter of Senator Obama, she is a campaign volunteer who posted a picture of her hate speech on Senator Obama's own web site and went to a rally where Governor Palin appeared wearing her hate proudly on her body. And Volpe was not alone. Your candidate owns this particular shithead much more than Senator McCain owns the shitheads who only say things at his rallies.

How would you react if a Senator McCain volunteer organized her friends to wear T-shirt proclaiming "Senator Obama is a sand nigger terrorist" and wore them to a Democratic rally where Senator Obama appeared?

Give it a think - if you are indeed capable.

While you might not believe blatant misogyny qualifies as spewing hatred and fifth, there are many true progressives who disagree with you. I in no way condoned or approved in this blog of the things supporters of Senator McCain have been saying at rallies. I did expose a double standard and the unfairness of the expectation that any politician can control shithead supporters.

Now go fuck off, you stupid cunt.
Susanne Freeborn, you seem like a nice person but you have demonstrated a complete inability to understand any criticism of Senator Obama, ever. I have read many of your comments on my blogs and elsewhere that have excused blatant misogyny from his supporters towards his opponent's running mate. You have also excused some of Senator Obama's poor policy choices and bad votes.

Consequently I feel compelled to ask, what will it take for you to say Senator Obama is wrong about something?

I am beginning to think he could sodomize a child on stage and some of his supporters wouldn't blink or waiver. Perhaps they would even claim the boy wanted it and pushed back.

Are you that in the tank for Senator Obama? Or is there a limit to your devotion? What is that limit?

For me it was his vote on FISA and his stance on mental health and abortion. Up and until that point, I toyed with voting Democratic this year, but after those two sell outs and the many others since there was no way I would vote for either major party candidate.

I do understand why you are voting for him, but I do not understand your inability to recognize his flaws.
Piss Yellow Dog, I have never deleted a comment on any internet blog ever and I have never banned anyone from a blog either. But I deleted your last comment and will delete any comment from you from now no matter what you write. When I said fuck off, I meant it.

Given proof that this is no mere supporter, but a campaign volunteer you respond with more personal attacks and bullshit. Take your woof and jam it up your ass.

I might have felt a little bad for being harsh on you that one time before, but I am not sorry one bit now. You have proven yourself an unrepentant repeat jerk not worth addressing ever.

You are not welcome here and neither are your opinions.
I don't believe anyone is saying that John McCain should control his supporters. These four knuckleheads are beyond the control of Sen. Obama -- he is almost certainly not aware of them and their actions.

The same can not be said of the ugliness that has swirled around the McCain campaign in recent days. The criticism of that ugliness has been that McCain is certainly aware of it, because in some cases it is happening literally right in front of him, and the senator and his running mate said things that incite and encourage the ugliness. For example, a man introducing Sen. McCain referred to Sen. Obama as "Barack Hussein Obama. " Gov. Palin has repeatedly said that Sen. Obama "does not share our values."

The Obama campaign has engaged in nothing like that sort of rhetoric. That is why no one is criticizing his campaign for these 4 t-shirts. That's not tribalism or defensiveness, it's logic.
October, I'll ask you the same sort of question I asked up thread.

If one of Senator McCain's campaign volunteers made and sold a shirt that said "Obama is a nigger" and took her friends wearing that shirt to a rally where Senator Obama made an appearance, don't you think there would be an outcry?
Or maybe this is just a score some cash quick scheme on the part of an itty bitty hipster who is supporting Senator Obama?

Is it even more ok for this campaign volunteer to sell hate speech if she donates her profits to Senator Obama's campaign?
Absolutely there'd be an outcry. And there's an outcry about this shirt, isn't there, right here? It's a terrible message.

But I still stand by my statement that, in regards to the candidates (not the supporters), my thoughts about it are the same. McCain and Palin have egged these people on and heard them, in person, say these awful things about killing someone, with only very mild commentary against it on McCain's part (and none on Palin's).

If someone yells out "She's a cunt!" and "Let's rape her!" at an event, and Obama clearly hears it and says nothing or "Aw shucks, ya'll" then I stand corrected. If Obama starts alluding to Palin as a cunt who should be raped, I'm wrong, and he should be treated as McCain and Palin have been about this stuff.

The people involved in both shirts are excessively stupid and engaging in repulsive behavior. I'm super sick of the sexist crap, I must say.

I will also agree with what you allude to here and that is ... because it's against a woman, we won't hear much about it on the news. Sexism appears to be a bipartisan behavior.
Too tired to give spankings out properly, the good kind and the bad kind. Naughty little rapscallions.

In the end, scrolling down the page and reading all the comments is tiring. Cognitive dissonance. Apathy setting in. I'm gonna watch some tv.
Skyward digit for stirring shit though.
LT - I'm not a fan of Sarah Palin but this is just plain offensive. It steps over the line in a big way. I really wish that people would promote what they're hoping instead of hating. I highly doubt that Obama is promoting this, but it just goes to show that there are ignorant individuals on both sides of the fence.
LT, please, don't be a complete jackass. I disagreed with Obama on FISA and did my best to let him know about it. You paint Obama supporters with a broad brush. It just shows what a complete contrarian asshole you are.

All feminists do not agree anymore than all Obama supporters agree about everything. We have two choices right now. I made my choice early. I am not a cynical asshole like you. You can call me a hopeful asshole if you like.

I don't like the gratuitous use of the words you used and I don't like the damned t-shirts. Most perjorative language insults women, and phony feminist that you are you repeat. You are boorish in repeating this and boorish to aim it at anyone in particular. Worse yet, you revel in it.

Finally, your dumb ass screen shot shows that this person has done little if anything to support the campaign. Note her activity index number is only a 1.
I searched the website and Rhiannon Marie Volpe is no longer a member, if ever she was. Sure you aren't using photoshop?
Well, I take it back. Apparently she took down the picture and added this to her page:

dear democrats: if you are seriously going to judge me on my right to free speech outside of a palin protest, then i am sorry that i wasted my time and energy supporting your candidate to try and turn this trainwreck bush is leaving behind around. dear republicans: get off of your high horses. you and your candidate have proven to be absolute scumbags throughout this election. god forbid someone says something back, the whole world cries. remember mccain called his own wife the "c word" right? and for the billionth time, these shirts were at a palin protest. NOT an obama rally. you are all hypocrites.

She took down part of her name and the t shirt picture.
Lt Bohica writes: "This is sexist and wrong."

Wrong in what sense? That it's inappropriate for public viewing, or something like that? If they didn't wear the shirts in public would that be Ok?

The word itself as applied to Palin is a synecdoche, or "use of the part for the whole." It is a derogatory term used to denote a person that one finds disagreeable or offensive. It's not really a sexist term, since the word can also be used to denote a man.

But I'm not sure what you are asserting here. Are you saying that one should not make any derogatory remark about Palin, or only that the word used was wrong? In other words, would "Palin is a "prick" or "Palin is an asshole" be an improvement?

In light of her recent comment about the "Troopergate" report, a tshirt asserting that "Palin is a liar" would be completely accurate, though still it might not be the polite thing to wear in public.

But whatever derogatory remark you might or might not approve of with respect to Palin, it is clear that these tshirts have nothing to do with the Obama campaign, even though they may be worn by his supporters. In other words, there's no rhetoric in the Obama campaign that would lead to the conclusion that Palin is a cunt, prick, asshole or anything else. The people wearing those tshirts may have arrived at that conclusion through independent research. But it's clear that the campaign had nothing to do with it -- unless one could fault Obama for not suspending his campaign so he could instead roam the streets, rebuking his supporters for wearing inappropriate tshirts. Beyond that, it's not clear what Obama is supposed to do about the Great Tshirt Scandal.

On the other hand, no one ever said at a campaign rally that Obama should be killed or that he is a terrorist until the McCain/Palin camp started saying that Obama "palled around with terrorists." The cure there is simple: they should stop making needlessly inflammatory comments. And I think they realize this.
Truly, I blame the Obama campaign for these shirts. If only they had more (or any) original OBAMA gear, instead of limited to no availability in remote regions, people would not be reduced to creating their own fashion statements. Heck, NEON? So passe', the letters were probably in a clearance basket at some exotic t-shirt shop.

Again, no Obama yard signs, no campaign buttons, no size range in t-shirts online. PLUS, I never got the Car Magnet that I paid $15 for...Yep, the blame is on the Obama campaign for not having more appropriate shirts available for the asking...

Now, the sentiment and forbidden word on the shirts? Another story, so I have to agree with most of the above...

(Only partly kidding, but yes, I am kidding...;)
"October, I'll ask you the same sort of question I asked up thread.

If one of Senator McCain's campaign volunteers made and sold a shirt that said "Obama is a nigger" and took her friends wearing that shirt to a rally where Senator Obama made an appearance, don't you think there would be an outcry?"


LT -
What is the point your are trying to make? Your original piece is trying to equate these t-shirts to the ugly rhetoric and ignorance at John McCain's recent town halls. If you had evidence that Obama's campaign was endorsing or supporting these shirts, you'd have a point. Or if you could point to rhetoric by the Democratic candidates that seemed to encourage or condone this sort of thing, I'd be following your logic and you might have an interesting point. However, you seem to have a very little other than a picture of a sophomoric act being perpetrated by people who appear to be sophomores. You are grossly mischaracterizing the nature of the recent criticism of the McCain-Palin campaign and inflating the relationship of these t-shirts to the Obama organization.

Gov. Palin has said that Obama "pals around with terrorists" and Cindy McCain said, at a campaign event for her husband, that Obama voted against funding for her son in Iraq. These malicious half-truths encourage the sort of ignorant symbols like the Obama monkeys.

There simply is no equivalence here and I am confused why you think that there is. I am also confused because you are calling people "shit heads" and "cunts" and such, but then seem to be criticizing these shirts. Is this appropriate discourse or no?
October, what you and Mishima and others commenting here assume is true and have bought into completely is that Senator McCain has roused his supporters with untrue/half true hate speech and therefore is encouraging bad behavior. And so Senator McCain should be held accountable for what mere attenders of rallies say.

Many then proceed as you have to explain by pretzeling why this making of Senator McCain accountable is correct thought while holding Senator Obama accountable for his actual volunteer's actions that go beyond yelling words (marketing, selling, wearing at a Palin rally) is just plain impossible and illogical. You assert that Senator Obama can't police all those millions, now can he? But yet you think Senator McCain can?

I do not start with the assumption that Senator McCain/Governor Palin should not say Senator Obama is palling around with terrorists. The case the press and other supporters of Senator Obama are making does not wash with me, but yet so many here have just assumed it does.

I do not think either Senator Obama or Senator McCain should be held accountable for the shitheads with cunt and nigger on their chests. Or the shitheads saying things at rallies. (BTW - your attempt to shame me for using "bad" words and hence not discoursing "appropriately" is not going to work either. I love salty language and do not restrict my vocabulary for anyone. If it can be worn on a t-shirt at political rallies and on the streets, it sure as hell can be written here.)

To me (but evidently not to supporters of Senator Obama) any citizen plotting to bomb and so injure and kill members of the US military is a domestic terrorist. My father was a member of the US military just like I was. He served at the Pentagon. I served at the Pentagon. Ayers wanted to harm and kill people like us. Ayers is a terrorist. Ayers to this day is unrepentant. He helped launch Senator Obama's career and has assisted him in many ways over the years and so Senator McCain has every right to draw attention to this fact. Supporters of Senator Obama might not like it, but it is a fact.

Ayers helped Senator Obama. Ayers is a domestic terrorist. Senator Obama has hung out with a domestic terrorist. Anyone who argues this is not so is essentially arguing that it would have been alright to hurt/kill me or my father. And so I do not give validity to the premise so many of you here take as a given.

But my ultimate point?

My point has always been that Senator McCain is being held to a higher standard. I have not been able to watch a cable news show since last week and not be bombarded with how Senator McCain must stop this behavior by people at his rallies. Dozens of posts here at OS echo that sentiment. It is hypocritical partisan pretzeling.
PS October, Senator McCain can't even say Senator Obama doesn't share their values? WTF is wrong with that? I know what you will say already so don't even bother. Double standard much?

Mishima, your pretzeling over cunt is stunning to read. Nothing more to say really. Just stunning.

Freeborn, I hope you feel better after that rant. Thanks for apologizing for accusing me of being a photoshopping liar five minutes later. I have no problem with being called a jackass. I've been called much worse. However, I don't think using the word cunt means I am not a feminist. Not following the logic there. Does that mean that black people who say nigger are racist?

Thank you for posting Volpe's statement. How wonderful is it that Volpe thought she was doing Senator Obama and Democrats a service with her shirt? Definitely one that falls into the please don't do us any more favors category.

lalucas, I thought your comment was funny and am peeved on your behalf for their failure to deliver merchandise you paid for.

To everyone - I probably won't revisit this thread again. It has been interesting to read the tortured logic and I appreciate Stellaa's word, pretzeling. I realize OS is Obama country, but I would hope people here could be capable of recognizing that their viewpoint is clouded by partisanship. I think both candidates are duplicitous war mongering crooks and am voting third party.
Just so you are clear: I am not a nice person. I may be kind sometimes. I maybe all kinds of good things, but I am not nice. Nice people schmooze over things that matter. The fact is that you and I disagree about any number of things, but it is an honest disagreement. I don't like "salty" language that has to do with dinigrating the sexuality of women. I prefer stuff like "needle dick the bug fucker."
How heartening that the level of discourse has been raised so high in this campaign, especially here on OS, filled with supposedly intelligent, informed, committed citizen writers.

Most of the people in these photos appear young, making me even more relieved that the Youth of America is so well prepared to show all the old, no-longer-relevant Hillary supporters how to run a Campaign for Change.

The shirts, as well as this debate, are creating a pointless distraction from the serious substance of the issues.

Enough. Please.
Wish I had money left to tip this, had to settle for a thumbs up instead. Off to read Shakespeare's Sister now- Thanks for being you.
I wasn't coming back here, but Freeborn, Swift and especially hyblaean lured me.

Freeborn, I've never thought you were nice. Nice is such an insipid word. I prefer people who are uppity and not PC. I also don't want the world to agree with me as it would make life very boring.

Swift, thanks for coming by. Yes, we are rather ridiculous. Myself especially.

hybaean, I appreciate the high compliment. Please save your money and perhaps do something comforting and good with it for yourself and your partner. Money has never been a huge motivator for me. Perhaps because I operate from a position of privilege. I am aware of my privilege though and lurking around Shakespeare's Sister has made me ever so much more aware of how privileged I am in this world.

And now I really am not coming back to this thread again. The whole t-shirt thing turns out to have been an orchestrated effort to use hate to make money.
October 14, 2008 08:22 AM "Susanne Freeborn, you seem like a nice person but you have demonstrated a complete inability to understand any criticism of Senator Obama, ever. "

So if you equate the word nice with the word insipid, as you did in your last post, gee thanks.
Freeborn, You noticed that. Yes, I was insulting you when I called you nice, but I was trying not to be too mean to you when I did it.

Now I'll attempt to explain as that may not make much sense. Please realize that this is something I don't verbalize often and so don't jump to too many conclusions as I break it down for you.

I have trouble being out and out mean to women unless I absolutely have to be. Telling women off in a "mean" way goes against all of my gender indoctrination from birth. Things like being told not to hit girls in school, etc, etc. And even though I have spent plenty of time around female attorneys who don't need any pulled punches, I still don't react to them like I do men. I will go from zero to asshole with a guy, but not with a gal. A woman has to go out of her way to get me to react like I will react to men and even then I won't always spell out what I really think of her and her opinion. Sometimes I will be a little passive aggressive about it.

Yes, my behavior in these instances is sexist. It is sexist because in a way I am buying into the belief that woman can't handle my harshest thoughts/honest criticism like a man can and so I pull the punch. To this day, I tread lightly around my mother and sister because my arguing with them can result in gales of tears and extremely hurt feelings. With my dad and brothers I can go for the throat and they just shrug it off and keep on coming. Yes, I am working on this sexism in my life. Yes, I am human and flawed.

So what does this mean in the context of my calling you nice?

In the past, you have never seemed to be someone I would engage openly and critically. You'd come over and usually write something partisan, but not too mean. Anything that might be construed as remotely critical of your candidate was anathema and wrong. You showed some residual primary dislike of Senator Clinton which I just chalked up to your own sexism along the lines of "just not that woman" thinking which I have found can be very common in women your age. In other threads when I read your comments, I discovered you were a grandmother and a good person and yes, still pretty partisan. Of course, just reading your comments here cannot possibly provide a full view of you as a person, but like most of humanity would have, I did form an impression of you.

So then you started this thread with a one liner that essentially calls my thoughts a waste of time. I thought you were being an asshole and showing a lack of critical thinking skills because you are so in the tank for your candidate. So yes, when I called you nice initially, I was damning you with faint praise. I was insulting you from the start and went from there. I called you nice instead of a jerk wad partisan asshole because of that whole it is harder for me to get in the face so to speak of a woman that I just explained, especially one of my mother's age (I am guessing your age group).

So yes, I don't think you are someone I can engage honestly because of your gender, your age, and what you have written in the past. This is my baggage, not yours.

Your calling me a photoshopping liar was fun as well, but then you sorta apologized before calling me a jackass, boorish and not a feminist because I use profanity. I took the liar part more seriously than the rest, but I still didn't react like I would have if a man had written what you did. I still didn't call you a jerk wad partisan asshole even after you essentially called me a liar.

Yes, I need to get over my need to be nice to women. It is patronizing and sexist and I know it. But women react badly to honesty. I don't think you will react well to what I just wrote in this comment for example even though I am really trying to explain and am exposing some of my inner wiring in the process.

I considered sending this to you in an email, but figured that would be misunderstood just as much if not more. And besides, those private emails are cheating in a way.
Well you just explained pretty much what I thought about you all along. You are a sexist hiding behind an intellectual understanding of feminism. You make a lot of assumptions, insult the living bejeezus out of people that you don't agree with and show the limits of your own thinking more clearly than you realize.

Long ago I realized that I was never better than the second smartest person in the room. It gave me some freedom I didn't have when I was always trying to be the smartest. I don't look for people to be either dishonest or mean-spirited, it doesn't suit me and seems to draw that shit into my life. I don't have any need of it. That is central to why after completing a legal education I didn't become a lawyer. It didn't fit for me, I didn't want to become what I was seeing. Wonderful education though. I also studied women's studies undergraduate, as a strong minor. I don't agree with some of the direction you take because I think you throw in with the misogynists with your choice in using what you call “salty” language. Most of the time swearing has to do with insulting women. Not that I mind swearing if it is creative. Most of the time it is simply a short cut much the same as labeling people: it stops all thought and leads nowhere productive. Not that there aren't plenty of jackasses around who think that using "salty" language wrests those words from the hands of racists, misanthropes and misogynists. So far that theory hasn't worked.

You're a very smart and observant person in many ways, but not in all ways. You could be forming far more productive relationships here if your skepticism was less cruel and more a search for some truth.
i appreciate someone addressing sexism, racism and other matters of this sort, but when you directly attack all Barack Obama supporters, that isn't fair.
Things like..."what if republican's went around wearing.." is saying that republicans don't do things like this..the fact is, they do. i have many republican friends who make jokes about Barack Obama all the time.
Also, to say "why isn't Barack Obama controlling his supporters, is ridiculous..he could address the problem, but to try not let them wear it would only further the hatred of politicians, and make people feel like their rights to free speech were being taken away.
An unbiased video would be nice.
It's about deniability. If you could show Obama knew about it, or someone asked him about it, then he'd definitely have to say something. And he should be asked. If I was in his campaign I'd have a plant ask so he could get indignant about it. :-)

Palin and McCain don't have plausible deniability on hearing the shouts.
Freeborn, my admitting to being raised from birth to be nice to woman does not disqualify me from being a feminist. You are a partisan hack who jumps to conclusion with little to no basis. Because I do not support your candidate and criticize him, you have the tendency to come over loaded for bear shooting off your mouth. You are so in the tank that you rarely make any sense at all. It is probably a good thing you never became an attorney as I would feel rather sorry for clients inflicted with your poor reasoning skills.

Everyone has an inner sexist and an inner racist. No one is perfect all of the time. Programming and privilege are hard to escape. But at least I am aware of my failings and am working on them. I struggle to become a better feminist every day and have never claimed other wise.

You on the other hand are blind to your inner sexist. For example, you have no problem hating on Palin because she is a woman and not because of her views. You have done this on OS since Senator McCain selected her. Pull that plank out of your eye before you complain about the splinters in mine.

From now on I will jump on your stupidity and treat it with the scorn I would any man's. It will be good for my progress.
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