Grazing Sheeple

nugacity at its finest
OCTOBER 14, 2008 1:54PM

Not A Cross on the Yard, but a Burning McCain Sign

Rate: 13 Flag

Please amaze me with how you will pretzelize your values to condone or excuse this like many of you condoned or excused the Sarah Palin is a Cunt shirts made and sold by an Obama campaign volunteer.  Please continue to amaze me with your partisan hypocrisy.

Thanks to Stellaa for giving me a new word: pretzelize.

 

Two men arrested in McCain sign burning

by Holley Gilbert, The Oregonian
Saturday October 11, 2008, 4:21 PM

Two Portland men were arrested today in connection with the early morning burning of a political sign outside a Sellwood neighborhood home.

Kevin C. Robinson and Leslie B. Leudtke, both 25, were being held in the Multnomah County Detention Center. Each is accused of four counts of manufacturing a destructive device and four counts of possession of a destructive device. Leudtke also is accused of reckless burning. They are scheduled to appear in Multnomah County Circuit Court on Monday.

Gene Scrutton, 50, said he was awakened about 1:30 a.m. by a neighbor who telephoned after he saw the 4-feet-by-8-feet McCain campaign sign in Scrutton's front yard on fire. The sign, which is mounted on 12-foot-long 4-by-4s, is about five feet from the home where Scrutton and his wife, Karen, have lived for 32 years.

Karen Scrutton, 50, was asleep in the room directly behind the sign and woke up when a burning bottle thrown at the sign hit one of the posts and set it on fire, he said. The devices were Pacifico beer bottles stuffed with gasoline-soaked rags, he said.

The neighbor saw a man trying to light the bottom of the sign on fire with a second burning device, he said. One of the men dropped a third, unlighted device and the two ran when the neighbor yelled, Scrutton said.

Scrutton grabbed his garden hose and put out the blaze, then called 9-1-1 to report the incident.

"They were obviously out to intimidate me," Scrutton said. "But someone easily could have been hurt or killed or my house burned down" if the thrown device had hit the house.

He said his wife was sleeping in the chair because she is recovering from an injury and may not have been able to escape a house fire.

Portland Fire & Rescue investigated the incident.

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completely unacceptable behavior. notice that beer bottles were used. what do you want to bet that, like most 'stupid human tricks' alcohol played an important role in this idiocy?

I deride the burning of all signs.

(thumbed)
I noticed the molotov cocktails. Hate is not just a Republican value. There are shit heads on both sides.
This is not only stupid, ignorant and misguided, it's illegal.
This is not only stupid, ignorant and misguided, it's illegal.
I'm not sure who you think would justify such behavior. It's not a partisan issue. It's a jackass issue.
Stupidity is nonpartisan.
The tone of this campaign is getting heated and angry.

The candidates cannot, of course, control all their supporters, but they can try to minimize this kind of destructive and reprehensible behavior by speaking out.

Hopefully, when they do, they won't get booed by their own supporters.
Buckeye, I deleted a comment off the cunt post and I have never deleted a comment in eight years of blogging around the internet. There are people here on OS who will justify anything.
I counted two comments--at best--that "condoned" the cunt t-shirts discussed on your other post. That hardly counts as "many" in my book. And nobody's going to condone this act, either. So where's the hypocrisy, exactly?

If anyone's a hypocrite, it's you for twisting people's words to create strawmen in an effort to make a point that has no basis in truth.
Very bad behavior. May they be prosecuted heavily. Sign burning is bad all around.
Blake Mitchell, Some of the comments flat out approved, others tried to say it couldn't possible be Senator Obama's supporters making, selling, and wearing the shirts to a Palin function. There were more than two. Go back and read again. If it makes you happy, I will add excusing to this post as there is a difference between excusing and condoning.

So when will I hear the calls from the media for Senator Obama to calm his supporters down?
Thanks. Changing "condone" to "excuse" would make a huge difference. And I did scan through those comments one more time before I posted my previous comment. You're right; some people excused it to varying degrees. But I still only count two who approved or condoned those shirts, unless you deleted more posts than you claim. So your post here still reads like an exaggeration on your part. If you had such an airtight case, you wouldn't have to tip the scale like that. ;)
I thought the debate on the cunt post was related to whether or not it is Sen. Obama's responsibility to respond to the T-shirts (or to Bernhard/Cho), not whether the T-shirts themselves (or Bernhard/Cho's sad attempts at comedy) were appropriate, which virtually everyone seemed to think they were not. Of course, I can't know what was in the posts you deleted.
Blake: If you don't believe that L.T. has a point then search Palin and see the ridiculous attacks by OS er's on her. Some were in good fun but we have criticized her on everything from her accent to her glasses. The river definately runs both ways.
The two arsonists should get the book for reckless endangerment and not just a property violation. In the face.

I just don't know how Obama is to be held responsible for every one of probably over a million VOLUNTEERS.

Those who do wrong are wrong, and burning even a David Duke sign is wrong, let alone a legitimate candidate's.

Now, do you understand the difference between respectful disagreement and ad-hominem incitement and insinuation?

BTW, since you're obviously voting for McCain, perhaps you'd like to tackle a few questions he won't?

1. Senator, will you release your medical records in an organized fashion for serious examination by experts?

2. Senator, in recent years you met twice abroad with Russian Billionaire Oleg Deripaska, whose visa to the US has been revoked on suspicion of organized crime on an international level. Can you please tell us:

a) what these meetings dealt with,
b) were you aware at the time that the US regarded this individual as an organized crime figure and barred his entry
c) if not, when did you become aware of this
d) if not, do you regard this as a failure on your part, to have met with such an individual?
e) Your campaign manager, Rick Davis, who was present at both meetings, insisted in the past (in response to queries on this very matter) that all his meetings with Deripaska had to do with his own lobbying business. So were you indeed meeting with an individual barred from entry to the US not in connection with your office, but rather in order to further Mr. Davis' business?
f) If Mr. Davis' grave implication is false, how do you justify retaining his services in such a senior capacity?

3. Senator, your wife has refused to release her tax returns, which is her absolute right as someone who has not chosen to run for office. However, your political fortune was built on your wife's business fortune, and her father Jim Hensley's before that. Your lifestyle is totally dependent on this money. In light of substantial evidence tying your father-in-law and the business empire he founded to organized crime, don't you think the voters need to be assured (beyond your word which I have no doubt you will give) that your political career has not been built on dirty money?

4. Senator, your campaign has been making much of Senator Obama's alleged ties to ACORN, a community organization. Yet in recent days it became known that you have also sought this organization's endorsement as recently as 2006, whereas Senator Obama's contact with ACORN dates to a decade and more ago. How do you explain this?

5. Are you considering Phil Gramm, architect of the de-regulation bill that directly caused the sub-prime crisis, for Secretary of the Treasury, or any other senior position in a McCain administration?

Thank you.
One of the things I marveled at in coming to America was the relative absence of violence that marked elections. Nobody got gunned down and killed at polling stations as they did in my country. The low level violence we've been seeing in this election is disturbing. But it speaks to people's perception of the times--they are desperate. This is not an excuse.
hatred is always hatred.
Sorry to disagree, Bohica, but where there is violence and hate crimes there is usually -- perhaps not always -- but usually the spirit of right wing authoritarianism involved [cf Bob Altemeyer, "The Authoritarian Specter," or Google "The Authoritarians" for a freebe.]

This applies to assassinations and coup d'etats as well. The Kennedys were not assassinated because they wanted war or because they were too conservative for the Military-Industrial Complex. Martin Luther King, Jr., was not assassinated because he wanted to sock it to the commies for God and country.

We progressive on the left have our faults; but they come in an entirely different genre than the violence and hate speech against which you rightfully rail. If there is an error in thinking I see here, it is the same dichotomous -- "all or nothing" -- mindset that puts everyone in the "enemy" category as does George W. Bush.

Of course, we on the left are not perfect in that regard, but I'll leave it to you to discover and out those cognitive qualities that get in the way of the current fascist mindset that runs amuck among "conservatives" and their lap-dog Christianists.
Oh and by the way? Palin is not a cunt. She HAS a cunt (I'm pretty sure, and no doubt an asthetically decent one, as the rest of her is). In any case, I like cunts, and statistics imply that those who create and wear such t-shirts do too, so I don't really get it. What she IS, is a cuntRAG. Just my opinion. Wouldn't put it on a shirt, tho. I like my poli-T's a little more witty... :-)
And a final btw, soldier, after glancing at your bio - whatchu ride? :-)

Nothing exciting here... Kymco Dink 200 scooter (200 my Jewish ass... 176cc). Dreaming of moving up to either a 500 custom (Virago, EN) or a stronger execu-scooter, like the Silverwing 400 or the amazing Yamaha TMax. TMax is an expensive mofo, but it utterly pwns any mass-produced 500 bike except maybe for real race replicas. Really revolutionary "scooter". And RR's are kinda rare in that class... they tend to start at the 600 range, unless they're "replicas of replicas" geared for the junior set... Like the Honda CBR 125 that just hit the streets here in Israel - amazing, amzing looking bike, a highschooler's wet dream... with tires thin enough to floss with. I mean, WTF???

(As you can see, I figure you and I gonna get along a lot better talking bikes rather than politics :-P )
You are right, LT, there are shit heads on both sides. Hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

Around WWI when he was about 8, my dad had a cross burned on his lawn because they were German Catholics. I hold this image of his warm brown eyes reflecting the flames. The t shirt was gross--this is criminal.

rated
Here's a variation of the story, that has played out in my own twisted mind -- and Liz, don't worry, I know it is illegal:

At the north edge of the county where I live, there was (may still be) a sign that proclaims that Martin Luther King would have supported John McCain's policies. I doubt that this sentiment would work on the masses, but I do not like the cognitive dissonance created by it.

I thought a little thought one day, that wouldn't it be nice if the sign burned down, nice if someone else thought of it as I do -- a public nuisance in its absurdity...I am not a violent person, never set fire to anything, never defaced public property, and usually don't even think such things. I know homeless people in our county live under these signs, so would never throw a firey bottle at a billboard. Still, the thought passed through my head...

This campaign has people's nerves frayed and raw. I will be SOOO glad when it is over!!!! My Adult Christmas List will contain many wishes, one of which will be that NO political campaign can last for more than three months. This is just madness...
Yes, this is disturbing. However, I'm not guilt-free as in a moment of immature teenage rebellion (this was several weeks ago), I had a friend swipe a McCain sign while our husbands were being reckless and had climbed up to the top of my moving car. Probably one of the more deviant acts I've ever engaged in. In the morning, the sign had been replaced. While there weren't any flames involved, it was disrespectful nonetheless.
Every once in a while I come across an Obama yard sign and
have an urge to do something unpleasant to it, but then I realize
I have NO RIGHT to do anything, besides, it's way bad juju.
LT-
Here is the thing that escapes me:
What has Barack Obama said or done to encourage this behaviour? The McCain campaign has called Sen. Obama someone who wants America to lose and "pals around with terrorists." Sen. Obama's campaign says John McCain has bad policies. The worst attack from Obama's campaign was recalling the Keating Five scandal.

Where is the equivalence? You are the one "pretzelizing."
I think that there has been an escalation in incredibly bad behavior since Obama told supporters "...to get in their faces."

Unfortunately, supporters with poor judgment can be found in both camps. Yes, I'm blaming Obama for making a boneheaded statement...he gave the nut cases license to act on their basest instincts. "Get in their faces" means different things to different people. "C**t" T-shirts and Molotov cocktails are extreme examples of getting in someone's face. But, I could be wrong.

I, too, wish the election was over. I think there will still be plenty to cuss and discuss after November 4. I don’t think I’ll be wrong on this statement.
Ricky B, I'm too old to be doing other people's home work and will not be answering your quiz. BTW - wrong assumption on your part. I am an independent voting third party this year who thinks Senator Obama and Senator McCain are both war mongering corporate owned crooks. So "obviously" things are not so obvious. What do I ride? Pretty much my whole family rides so there are many bikes to choose from. Predominately Hondas and Harleys with one Yamaha tossed in by a rebellious brother, but I am shopping for a Triumph which will really be the odd man out in the wolf pack. Most of the bikes are ridiculously overpowered compared to everything you mention. (Dyna and super glides which are 1465 cc) Which doesn't mean I don't like smaller cc bikes. I do. I prefer bikes in the 800 to 1200 cc range. One of my favorite bikes of all times now sold was an 883 sportster, which I realize is still huge compared to under 200 cc bikes. You just can't ride those here and not be in danger once you leave surface streets. A weekend of riding can be hundreds of miles per day. I do have a 250 cc Honda I bought so my mother and sister could have a smaller bike to learn on and dent up. I admit I have fun running it around town, but is it not safe for the freeways. I can get it up to 75 with the throttle full out, but traffic routinely flows at 80/90 in Texas which makes it a hazard to navigation on the interstate. The Triumph I am looking for is their Scrambler model which is 865cc. I check Craig's list ever so often, but am really waiting for San Antonio to get a Triumph dealership before I make my move. I am of the opinion that pretty much everything is fun to ride and if offered a chance to take something for a spin, I rarely say no. I will confess my worst and only crash was on a 50cc moped when I was a pre-teen. I took it through a neighbor's fence and set lose his horses. The moped was fine. I was fine. The fence was hosed.

Bailey Wo, I understand what you are saying. I don't consider Democrats to be liberal. Most are decidedly centrist. Their continuation of the war on drugs is a prime example of the conservative leanings.

October, I think H-D Rider's Obama quote is something you should think about. "Get in their faces" indeed. That has to be at least as bad if not worse than "he does not share our values" and is definitely a more direct call to action that "he pals around with terrorists."

To all you criminal sign thieves or sign thief wanna bes - it is not a prank, but a crime to steal political signage. You are naughty people and I won't be bailing you out if you get caught. Beware the security cameras. I am not the only one who has them around their property.

Thanks to all who weighed in on the wrongness of sign burning.
Sorry for making an ass of u and me... I'd be interested if you could expound on the war mongering" part re: Obama.The corporate owned crook I have less problem seeing the arguments for.

My favorite bike was the 1982 Honda CB 650 Custom, whi I owned in the mid-90's in NYC. Rode it to Detroit and back once. behaved like a dream - despite the last part of the ride back, from the Ohio-Penn border all the way home, taking place in a pretty wild hailstorm (August, I had no wet suit,,,). That bike had the handling of a race replica. I swear.

Harleys are awesome, but I just can't see the justification of paying twice as much as for the equivalent "ricer", as the over-patriotic call them when I can't see a single solid advantage you're getting. Not in power (not power you actually need to access, anyway), not in durability, not reliability, not top speed, not affordability of bike, parts or service, not handling... am I wrong? I mean, I understand the mystique. If it was a 20% markup.

In Israel there are license classes (under 125, to 500 and beyond). A few years ago when I came back here I had to do my license from scratch after settling all the tickets and late fines they incurred in my absence. Anyway, part of the test is figure 8's, and I did not want to deal with doing them with a bulky 650 dual purpose bike. I knew I couldn't afford a high range decent bike anyway, so I was content to do the 500 one, which I could do on a sleek road bike (the kawasaki something 500. Their equivalent to Suzuki's GS 500. That Kawasaki had an amazingly high moment, which enabled me to do the figure 8's without touching the gas almost at all :->). Hence the silverwing 400 and not the 650.

I miss manual transmission. I miss going into a curve at the right power, downshifting and simply letting go of the gas, no break, no clutch, for all the slowing down and extra traction you need. :-)
RickyB, Senator Obama has signed on to the forever war on terror and will be shifting the focus from Iraq where the opponent is fairly incompetent and corrupt to Afghanistan where the opponent is focused, scary, and ruthless. He will not be ending the war, merely continuing it in a place where we will really get ours asses handed to us just like the Russians because we will not commit the overwhelming force required to pacify a country. Of course, true pacification requires decimation and occupation. I don't think we have the stomach for that - not that I would never advocate it. If Senator Obama was truly anti-war, he would have led the charge in the Senate to cut off all funding for what is an illegal war. Instead, he voted time and time again to fund the war just like the majority of his war mongering party. President Bush can only act as a dictator as long as congress lets him.

You are absolutely right about Harleys. I haven't bought a new one in ten years. I've outgrown the mystique you describe. However, my dad loves them and has three. My mom rides one as well. The sportster that was my favorite was a great deal I got almost two grand under market right before I shipped out to Japan. I didn't bother with a car there and road that bike all over Tokyo and beyond. I had cash offers for three times what I paid for it as Harleys are in short supply there, but I kept it. My favorite rice burners as you put it are Hondas. But right now no one I hang with has a Triumph and so I want what no one else has. Typical spoiled American. (I dislike driving automatics as well and am licensed to drive semi-tractor trailers - the ultimate double clutch.)
That's what you got for me as an example of Sen. Obama ginning up resentment and inciting and encouraging violent behavior? He said "get in their faces?"

Let's put that statement in context. Here is a quick transcription of what Sen. Obama actually said -- A link to the YouTube video is below:

" I need you. I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I need you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face. If they tell you 'well, I am not sure where he stands on guns,' I want ya to tell them 'he believes in the second amendment.' If the tell ya 'he's gonna raise our taxes' I want ya to say 'no he's no, he's going to lower 'em.' You are my ambassadors."


This is hardly a call for burning signs. This is not name-calling or demonizing opponents. There is no call to burn signs or intimidate or make offensive, profane t-shirts. This is a call to be an ambassador for truth.

Again, the criticism of the McCain-Palin campaign has been that they are painting Sen. Obama as friend of terrorists, as someone who is un-American, un-patriotic and different. Sen. Obama, meanwhile,is telling his supporters to become "ambassadors" by debating the policies and issues and correcting misconceptions.
Again - no equivalence whatsoever. How is this equivalent?

I am not defending these boneheads who burned the McCain sign. I don't think more than one or two comments to your previous post defended or excused the "Sarah Palin is a c--t" shirts. People dismissed them as the actions of a couple of knuckleheads.

Do you have any other examples where Obama or Biden have demonized Sen. McCain has less than American? Or stirred up fear of and distrust? Or made truly sexist remarks? I don't think these things have ever happened in this campaign. I am not sure what your problem is with Barack Obama. It's a good thing you live in TX where the math renders your vote irrelevant anyway.
October, I am an independent voting third party in an attempt to get a third party over the five percent thresh hold that will bring automatic ballot access and federal money. No vote is ever wasted or irrelevant.

I appreciate all of your thoughts, but you operate from a different start point than I do regarding the whole Ayers being a terrorist controvery. The shirt issue has progressed. Evidently it is all about $$$.
Please amaze me with your insight as to where I start with the "Ayers being a terrorist controversy." What is that controversy anyway? And what does my starting point have to do with your original point - that the McCain-Palin campaign and the Obama-Biden campaign are engaged in the same kinds of tactics and yet this rampant sexism on the part of the latter is ignored?

It seems you are pursuing your third party support in a most unfortunate way - by make false equivalencies, pushing quasi-Republican half truths and talking points, taking quotes out of context, and making broad accusations that ignore the important details. Instead of attacking Obama, why not report on Green party activities? What are the important distinctions that Green brings to the table? Where is Cynthia McKinney today and what is she talking about? That would be a more persuasive and interesting.
October, this is the last time I will address you until you post your own blog entries.

1) How nice of you to decide what I should write about. Take your ideas for wonderful informative useful posts and feel free to act on them yourself.

2) My point has always been that there has been a double standard. Senator McCain is expected to restrain his shitheads, while Senator Obama gets a pass. I don't think either can keep their fringe supporters in line and find it very partisan for only Senator McCain to be criticized for failing to do so.

The reason you seem to be failing to understand what I am writing is because you seem to think saying Senator Obama pals around with terrorists is a lie. I think it is the truth. And that is the difference in our start points. I don't see a moral equivalency problem like you do because to me Ayers is a domestic terrorist who should be in a cell, not a classroom.

3) I do not write here to pursue third party goals. I am an independent voter. I do not belong to a party. I vote for candidates, not their parties. I write about things like strike me, usually sexism. If you think there is an audience for third party reporting here on OS, feel free to fill that niche.

Again, as it seems you have constructed your empty profile for the sole purpose of not understanding what I am writing and posting comments on my page to that effect, I will be ignoring you until you post your own material on what ever topic floats your boat.
1) Just to clear up one thing - I set up an Open Salon account because I've been a regular Salon reader (and advertiser) since 1999. I have had a letters account since the Salon opened its letters I don't particular feel like blogging regularly. Making regular, informed blog posts would require too much time. There's no rule here, not even an informal rule, that one must make their own blog posts in order to comment on others.

2) I understand your point - there are people who would consider themselves liberal and progressive that engage in some stupind and offesnive acts. You have two examples of people who probably support Obama (though it isn't clear that they do) engaging in such deplorable behavior. I am with you, sister.

But i can't ride with you the rest of way. You are mischaracterizing the criticism of McCain-Palin campaign. There is a significant difference between what McCain and Palin have said.
Gov. Palin has said that Obama is a "pals around with terrorists." She has saod "just once I'd like to see Obama want America to win." McCain's commercials say that Obama is too risky to be president. That sort of talk portrays Obama as someone we should fear. He is different than you and me. His palship with Ayers means he is sympathetic to people who wanbt to blow up Americans. Should we surprised that someone in the audience would yell that Obama's is a "terrorist" or "kill him?"

By contrast, Obama has said nothing more about Gov. Palin than that she is unethical and unprepared. That is pretty far from calling her offensive names and smacking her down for being a woman.

Do you see how those two attacks are not equivalent? Why do you think that they are? Do you have any evidence, other than that lame "get in their faces" thing , that Obama or Biden have said anything demonizing McCain or Palin as people who aren't American? Have Obama or Biden implied that their opponents want to harm the US? They have similar associations in their past to fairly odious characters. If you do, then I'd agree that their ought to be criticism of such remarks. But you haven't presented any to date.

I think it is unfair to accuse people of being partisan and hypocritical simply for having a different, evidence-based point of view on this. . Your response to criticism of your post has not been with any evidence - it's been to insult people as dupes of the corporate media establishment or self-deluding partisans.
October, for the third time, I am not at your start point. As I explained on the other thread, I believe Ayer is a terrorist and that Senator Obama did hang out with him knowingly. Senator Obama does want to pull out of Iraq. I don't think Senator Obama is any more prepared than Governor Palin is - which is not very, but Senator Obama is even worse since he is running at the top of the ticket.

Do you understand now why I see no moral equivalence?

And now it seems like at least one and possibly the most damning accusation of crowd misbehavior may be false. Check the front page, Michon's post.

For the umpteenth time, I don't think Senator McCain should be told to control his shitheads any more than Senator Obama should.

Regarding your empty profile, OS has a long standing problem with attracting people who write no content and do nothing but troll. Nice about your wonderful unverified history over at the mother ship and while there is no requirement to post to comment here, I will not be responding to you until you do.

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