Dr. Scott Haltzman, author of Secrets of Happily Married Men: The Husband's Resource to a Happy Marriage and Secrets of Happily Married Women: How to Get More Out of Your Relationship by Doing Less (don't you just love the juxtaposition of the titles and what that juxtaposition implies) was on a morning talk show the other day, and just got yelled at from all sides, except by the homemaker who picks up her husband's socks, and, as Jezebel puts it, "after he's done working out and washes them, just so he knows she cares."
Watch the clip at Jezebel here.
My favorite part? Dr. Haltzman advises that
Women need to make their husbands feel like he is her superhero. He wants to make a difference in your life, and if you can make him feel that way, you're going to have a husband that's going to be there all the time...
At this point, my boyfriend, who was poking around the internets in his corner of the basement where I keep him chained, exclaimed, "well, why don't the men just do the things that deserve that kind of adulation?"
Dr. Haltzman continued
Men have lots of needs. They need to be cared for, they need to be acknowledges, they need to be right and in control...Let me give you an example. I work late on Tuesday nights, and when I get home, I don't expect her to cook me a ten-course meal, bu tI'd like her to maybe have warmed up some leftovers, so that after I get home after working all day long, providing for her, that she's letting me know, 'I'm thinking of you.'
I think it's somewhat reasonable, since she has no job and lives off his earnings, that she heat up some leftovers for him. After all, her job is Homemaker, and feeding the family is one of her duties.
But this flash of lucidity did not last long, and quickly, we had a bigger window into Dr. Haltzman's fucked up marriage.
Question:
For the first ten years if your marriage, you would come home and she'd be on the phone, and you'd be like, 'get off the phone.'
Haltzman:
No, I wouldn't say, 'get off the phone.' Here's the issue: she knew that i wanted her to get off the phone, because when I get home at the end of the day, I feel like I've just conquered the world, I feel like a soldier who's coming back after war, [boos from audience] that's how I feel. Now, I don't tell my wife to get off the phone, but after years of me sulking when I got home, feeling like, 'am i even here?' she gradually got to the point where learned to hang up the phone when I got home.
At this point, a fellow quest interjected, "You're a man, you're not a baby, she's your wife, not your mother."
So, let's sum up: Dr. Haltzman married a woman who sits at home all day, yapping on the phone, not even acknowledging his existence, and who doesn't even make him food, even though he pays for her whole life, and he has an insecure need for constant adultation, adoration and worship by his wife, even if it's not really merited...and he's a marriage expert giving out advice.
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Or maybe not.
Bbd, that would be hilarious.
Stellaa, it's true, it's been quite a week for the low-self-esteemed.
Sorry, Rob.
Now, for some fun, here's the NYT wedding announcement of Dr. Haltzman and his wife Susan.
Mrs. Haltzman, who was until recently an art teacher in the public schools of Montgomery and Maybrook, N.Y., received an art education degree and a master's degree in early childhood from the State University College at New Paltz, N.Y. Her previous marriage ended in divorce. Her father, who is retired, was the founder and president of Photo Media Ltd., an international photography agency in New York and New Paltz. The bride's mother, Eleanor Jane Hayum, is president of Universal Media Inc., a New Paltz photography agency.
Dr. Haltzman, a fellow in psychiatry at the Yale-New Haven Hospital, graduated from Brown University and received an M.D. degree from the Brown University Program in Medicine. His father is president of the Paint-n-Paper stores in Allentown, Pa., and his mother, Delores Haltzman, is the president and artistic director of the Repertory Dance Theater in Allentown.
"was until recently"? This nice Jewish married a doctor, that's all we Jewish girls ever really want, you see.
This was the first time in our married life that I did not work full time outside the home. In result, he did not lift a finger around the house. Not even to take out the garbage once in a while -- come on, the traditional"man" job? At this home, it meant pulling the recycling can up the steep driveway on a ball on the back of the car. I thought he could do that on his way out early in the morning. Nope, think again.
So, when I asked why he refused to do any housework, his searing retort was, "When you get your six figure job, I'll start helping you." OK, b*tch, and make sure there is a home cooked meal on the table each night because I am NOT taking your lazy ass out to a restaurant. I want to rest when I get home, I have put in my time, now it is yours...and on and on...
Well, I am NOT a whole lot different now than I was back then. So, you can imagine my reaction. Suffice it to say that the words chauvinist and divorce came up frequently in the same sentences.
When I finally got my six-figure job, however, he was as good as he word. With some guys, it is impossible to get past their early thought processes.
Maybe Haltzman was a bit of a puss for "sulking" and not being more direct about his frustration with not being greeted with a little domestic pampering instead of her always being on the phone when he got home late. But should a loving wife with a modicum of sensitivity and compassion have to be TOLD that?
Barry and Msr. Chariot rock.
If my wife isn't going to an office every day, cooking and keeping things tidy to provide a comfortable and welcoming refuge for the bread winner doesn't seem like too much to ask. I know some women say they're not "fulfilled" or feel they're making a "real" contribution unless they are a corporate board chairman. Why? Has being a nurturing wife, mother and homemaker become any less valuable to a happy home? I agree that just because a woman chooses that path doesn't mean she should be treated as subservient - that's wrong and unfair. That's just as tough a job - and in many ways more valuable than cash - as going off to fight the corporate battle. And deserves as much respect.
Lots of people say this, and very often, when they say it, even though they try to be gender-neutral about it at first, they invariably end up talking about the female partner staying at home. I mention this because I want you to imagine yourself in the homemaker's shoes. Would you want to be the partner who stays at home and cooks and cleans while the other partner is out in the world, earning a living? If homemaking is not a devalued job, if it's just as tough if not tougher as earning cash, then it shouldn't be a problem for you, right? Yet somehow, I think that you, in particular, would feel particularly degraded and emasculated by being the homemaking partner.
It's this ridiculous entitlement some men have that is so absurd -- you deserve to be worshiped why exactly? Because you have a job? I think some men still think they're entitled to a "Leave it to Beaver" kind of homelife simply by virtue of being a man, and when they can't find the kind of homelife their fathers had (or they think they had), they become resentful and angry at the women who now refuse to worship the mediocre ground they walk on.
Also, you write "They demand a wifely nurturance, of which only THEY understand the necessary depth and scope of the desired entitlement for the wife to succeed in this role. (If she really wanted to succeed)."
I think this is a two-way street, but it doesn't make it any more right or fair. Some women also have these secret expectations of how men should fulfill certain needs, and when the men fail to bring flowers every friday or propose on a mountaintop with fireworks, etc., the women become angry and resentful. Which all goes to the basic lesson of: articulate your needs and inform the other person of them.
And here's more from Dr. Haltzman (I can't believe this guy went to Brown!):
Looking for the perfect Valentine's Day gift? For a man, sex would be your best bet, says Scott Haltzman '82 MD'85.
The crux of Haltzman's book can be gathered from the chapter titles alone: Chapter 1: Know Your Husband, Chapter 2: Nurture His Needs - and Yours, Chapter 4: Talk Less and, of course, Chapter 5: Have Lots of Sex.
There's not enough background for me to authoritatively determine this, but where is it said that she could NOT go out into the workplace if she wished? And where is it noted that she even WANTS to work? Often it's financially infeasible to hire a nanny or a sitter at $10 an hour so Mom can go out and earn $12 a hour. Don't you think she is of more value to the family unit by attending to the needs of hubby and kids than the few dollars she might bring in?
It has nothing to do with a "Leave It To Beaver" mentality. Many women are proud of being a wife, mother and homemaker. And Mrs. Haltzman might well have known exactly what she was getting into when she got married...he would be the bread winner and she would keep up the home.
Heck, I know a lot of guys who trudge to some corporate desk gig for years and years because it pays well, but they too are ultimately "unfulfilled". Suck it up! Life is what you make it! You can't tell me that wifey can't get a little adult interaction from joining a book club or doing volunteer work. Plenty of SAHMs make bank too from home-based businesses like eBay or some other product/service they can offer on the web.
But when I come home from work and find I'm virtually ignored? I can't get a hug at the door, a hot meal and the occasional BJ? You bet I'd be pissed! And if we determined that the highest and best use of our earning capacity would be for her to be out in the workforce and for me to stay home with the kids? Then I would find fulfillment in doing MY "job" the best that I could. Isn't that fair?
This is the crux of the matter. You work all day as the bread winner, so in your end another part of your compensation package is being serviced by your wife. You seem to expect that her day is not over until you receive her end of the "pay" for putting a roof over your family's head.
There is nothing about "her" needs in anything you demand upon entering the home; there is nothing about companionship or mental stimulation with the woman that is supposed to be your partner. She has been working all day, too, to provide for the needs of your family. How about you go give her a back rub if she is on the phone. I daresay routine that includes a wife on the phone or computer everyday when her husband comes home is most like her chosen method to of avoid the expected "servicing" of you the minute you walk in the door. Give a little, get a little -- she had a hard day of work, too.
Another great aphrodisiac is calling midday, asking her if she feels like going out to dinner, and then encourage her to find someone to sit the kids. If you want a meal and a BJ, there you go -- instant gratification -- for BOTH of you...Give that a try, you and Dr. Haltzman would have a lot less about which to feel whiny...
I apologize for all the typos on the last comment. My eyes are hurting me from so much time on the computer lately. Perhaps I need to give them a braek by going shopping for the most fresh produce from which to prepare a delightful dinner for my spouse...
It is 90% give on the woman's side, 10% on the mans.
I swore to never live like that, and I have fought and fought against living that way. Some time two years ago, I gave up trying to get him to change. I just do what is required and try to enjoy his good points.
In the end, it has come down to a compromise in which I pick m y battles with him. I NEVER thought I would come to that conclusion, but I also KNOW the grass is not greener anywhere else. At least he is intelligent and handy, and if he so chooses can be thoughtful and charming. And, he is cute, so I guess that will have to do...
So, not much to help you to look forward to from my marriage.- Getting my husband to give up on his sense of entitlement is one of those battles I have chosen not to fight anymore...
I am all for keeping a sex slave locked up in the basement until he is perfectly trained to do all the housework and satisfy your every wish. That might get old, too, though after a while, but I would give it your best try! :)
For me this raises two points. The first is that the key to a successful marriage is for each partner to focus upon what he or she can do to make the marriage successful rather than upon what the other spouse can ("should") do. What are your own duties and obligations in the marriage?
The second is that if a man wants a traditional arrangement where his wife greets him when he gets home at the end of the day and makes sure that the home is an inviting place, then he should practice the tradition of regularly bringing his wife gifts to demonstrate his love for her and his appreciation of the way she cares for the home.
I would never, ever take any kind of advice about interpersonal relationships from a man who used the passive-aggressive method of sulking to get his wife to stop talking on the phone after he got home. If he can't even say "Honey, when I get home I'd like to be able to talk to you so that we can tell each other about our days. But very often you are on the phone. Can we talk about that?" then he has nothing to offer on the topic of how to have a good marriage.
Of course, this arrangement would be much more attractive to the wife if they both had a chance to take about what happened during the day. If the husband just wants a chance to give a monologue about his day (or even worse complain at length about his day), the wife is unlikely to be interested in making this part of the daily routine.
Your post hits all the classic traditional marriage gender roles talking points:
- maybe the wife doesn't want to work? check.
- the wife probably is capable of earning a lot less than the man, so her working is not financially feasible? check.
- being a wife, mother and homemaker is something to be proud of? check.
- most people work terrible boring jobs anyway, so they'd actually prefer to stay at home? check.
- homemakers can join book clubs and do volunteering? check.
It's textbook. I wish I had F10 programmed with the textbook response. The only one I'll bother addressing is your automatic assumption, even though there isn't a lot of background, as you concede yourself, that the wifey can't make that much money. It's sexist in itself.
Your only valid point is this: "And Mrs. Haltzman might well have known exactly what she was getting into when she got married...he would be the bread winner and she would keep up the home."
Indeed, that's possible. Dr. Haltzman, however, is in the business of counseling people with a variety of situations, not just ones like his own, yet he seems to think his advice is universally applicable.
But when I come home from work and find I'm virtually ignored? I can't get a hug at the door, a hot meal and the occasional BJ?
You yourself wrote on your blog that some women are whores even if they don't charge by the hour. Well, it seems to me you're positively requesting this kind of arrangement -- you work to finance the family, and wifey obliges with the "occasional BJ." If you expect sex in exchange for providing for the family, you're a john, and she's a whore.
... you work to finance the family, and wifey obliges with the "occasional BJ." If you expect sex in exchange for providing for the family, you're a john, and she's a whore.
She gets a roof over her head, a nice house to live in, a car to drive, and handed spending money. In return, she keeps the home and raises the kids. Sex should be a mutual expression of love and intimacy. It shouldn't have to be something "expected" or bartered.
But far more women can live their lives happily without sex than men. (That's not conjecture or gender-bashing, that's well-researched fact.) I'm 100% with Dr. Laura on that. You want to make your man happy? We care more about you being available and enthusiastic about making love than clean socks. Don't make it out to be such a chore to have sex. If your man is a considerate lover, you just might enjoy it yourself!
As for juxtaposing Haltzman with Dr. Laura... I'd much rather see an interview with him in segments alternating with bits from Roseanne Barr's "Domestic Goddess" routine.
It could be a real hoot.
Anyone here with the tech skills and interest to take that on? There must be some clips of Roseanne on YouTube...
A couple of things that came to my mind are:
1) I think it's fascinating to see how in just 2 generations or so, the US culture has changed from seeing a woman who works outside the home as being burdened, in a lot of instances, with non-traditional duties to today where SAHMs seem to be in the minority and, in some circles, looked down on as not having a productive role.
2) A lot of years ago, the leader of a seminar I was taking said that he and his wife each took 100% responsibility for their marriage working. I was not in a relationship at the time and not too far out of a really shitty marriage. This made so much sense to me. It still does today, 17 years into a really good relationship.
Each marriage/partnership is unique, but certain tenets are universal, IMHO. Consideration and compassion.
Rarely do a considerate lover and a loving, sexually open wife find themselves in a position for one to view sex as a chore on a regular basis.
Did you ever watch "Everybody Loves Raymond"? It wasn't my favorite show for obvious reasons. The narcissitic Raymond probably thought he was a considerate lover as well -- sex was a chore for his wife. Why would that have been the case? Because he was an inconsiderate bore of a man that took no interest in her or her accomplishments, and thought only of himself. He was the least romantic man imaginable in the sack -- it was so obvious, that I despair that anyone who saw those episodes could blame the wife. I am sure there are millions who think she was a frigid b*tch -- if so, it was with VERY good reason.
She gets a roof over her head, a nice house to live in, a car to drive, and handed spending money. In return, she keeps the home and raises the kids. Sex should be a mutual expression of love and intimacy. It shouldn't have to be something "expected" or bartered.
So then why would you write:
But when I come home from work and find I'm virtually ignored? I can't get a hug at the door, a hot meal and the occasional BJ? You bet I'd be pissed!
I don't see how those two fit together.
Bourgeois marriage prostitution indeed.
Haltzman is an arrogant, self-centered pig. Anyone who wants to be treated like a "superhero" is not looking for a relationship with another human being -- they are looking for a butler.
As for the issue of entitlement and expectation in the context of relationships, (also known as, "who does the laundry?") One of the things I love about the Greek Orthodox wedding ceremony is that fact that technically, there are no vows. The point of the ceremony was to make the two into one. Marriage is not a contract because you can't really make a contract with yourself.
What that means is that you can't hurt your spouse without hurting yourself. There is no "I win -- you lose" scenario. If you win, then I win. If you lose, I lose. If you are happy, I am happy. If you hurt, I hurt.
So the person who turns the tasks of life into an exercise of "How much can I foist off on you on the rationale that I am the breadwinner and you are not?" is looking at things from this zero-sum outlook. And so they are setting themselves up to never be happy. Because when it's all about what you're getting out of it, you're always missing something.
The point is to want whatever will make your partner a happy and fulfilled person, not to look at them as someone you need to extract things from. As for the "tasks of life" -- the bills, the laundry, meals, the vacuuming -- these are not ends in and of themselves, they are chores that should be dispensed with as efficiently as possible so that we can get on with the real stuff -- our dreams, our interests, our larger goals in the world. We've made our lives about the chores, and so the relationship becomes about the chores and not the people doing them.
Sometimes it is more efficient for one partner to do all the chores. Sometimes it is not. In our house who does what is dictated by who does it better. I love to cook. My husband lived for two years in an apartment not knowing whether the oven worked. So I do the cooking. My husband scrubs pots and pans within an inch of their lives. He does dishes. I know more about how money works than he does, so I handle the bills. The point for us is to just get the chores out of the way so that we can enjoy each other and our real lives.
Guys like Haltzman love trapping things in the minutiae because it all becomes a big power game. If you are the kind of insecure boob who needs to prove they are better than everyone else, sweating the small stuff becomes a great way to beat people into submission.
"I'm your wife, damn it! And, if you can't work up a winter passion for me, the least I require is respect and allegiance!
-- Paddy Chayefsky in Network
If I'm your husband and bread-winner and you can't work up a winter passion for me (let alone respect and allegiance) then FAKE IT, baby!
I'll have to ponder that equation, MB.
"The truly superior person does not stand out, is not ostentatious. Like water that refreshes, but has no distinctive taste, the superior person follows a middle course of doing small things well. The truly good person harmonizes quietly, modestly, and without calling attention to himself or to the quality of her acts. She builds no monuments to herself. As "the operations of Heaven have neither sound nor smell," so the superior person brings order to the world without noise or show."
Liz, as always, you are my hero! Zero-sum has been discussed ad nauseum in the past. We have come to an arrangement over the past two years that is more equitable than it ever was in the past.
No person likes to feel the disdain of a partner that believes it makes him more of man to demand things because it soon becomes obvious that:
"The point is to want whatever will make your partner a happy and fulfilled person, not to look at them as someone you need to extract things from.
These demands and the ensuing arguments takes the focus off the dreams and joys of life. For a joyless person, it serves as a useful diversion...
It seems to me that the person who does that is married for all the wrong reasons. This is a person who views his or her spouse not as a partner, or a fun or lively person, or someone whose company he or she enjoys, or someone he or she wants to share their life with, but as the adversary in a business negotiation, getting the most for the least. I'd hate to end up married to someone like that.
Methinks that ACleverGuy is being oh-so-clever by putting on airs. Or, at least, I hope...
Yep, and some people that live like that have to negotiate for dinners out, vacations, big ticket items, on and on...
PS The Virgo Sun comment was to say that people that are alike (ePriddy is a Virgo) tend to butt heads, nothing more...
I will, knock on wood, be earning my own living and will not have to ask for spending money or depend on anyone for any financial support, so hopefully this will never be an issue between my boyfriend and myself. I can't imagine living any other way, frankly. Maybe it's the control freak in me, but to depend so wholly on someone else is scary and counter-intuitive to me.
I would never have anticipated that phase of my life. I had my own business since I was 28, and had always taken care of myself before that time. When I sold that business, there was a monthly payment coming from it, as well as money made from investments in my free time. I was not without cash in any case -- just not a full-time job, which galled him.
I don't know if you saw my last post, but when we were in AU, we moved seven times in 2.5 years. Toward the end of that period I went to work, but shortly thereafter my husband became too sick with a debilitating neurological disorder to work. We had to come back to the US where we had health insurance. The company did not do right by us on that assigment by refusing to pay for our medical bills as that was part of the agreement. Lots of issues as the company was also sold while we were there. I had to fight to get them to pay to bring us home. It was not as easy time. Like I have said many times -- I have crammed many lifetimes into one.
It sounds like you are doing the same.