Well ... at least they're well protected against skin cancer.

See, this is the question I always had: They have this god, of course it's the same god, the one I lovingly call the "god of the desert". This god made woman. Woman, is a constant irritant to the patriarchs and the men of the religion. So, she needs to be covered all the time cause these men, cannot be held accountable for what they would do if they see this woman's body. Now, what a strange god to have made her such an alluring creature and to have made the men so weak. All part of the religion of the genitals.

A country? They already have a whole region! And as much as they actually have in common, they're not doing such a good job of playing well with others. :(

I dunno, sofia, the christian ones don't seem to be very present in said region, and the jews and muslims are, as you say, not cooperating with each other, despite a common love of falafel.

" Now, what a strange god to have made her such an alluring creature and to have made the men so weak."

indeed

Not exactly Victoria's Secret material is it? Also, in the water the heavy material could weigh down a swimmer, not to mention how the fabric feels damp after departing the water.

When I was a little girl in Egypt, the Catholic nuns would go swimming early in the morning in white cotton dresses. I would sit at the window watching them bob in the waves like floats. Behind the bushes, there would be bunches of bedouin and european boys gawking at the nuns in their dresses.
During regular hours, in those days. women wore all kinds of bathing suits. But it was the covered nuns that were the prized.

"Woman, is a constant irritant to the patriarchs and the men of the religion. So, she needs to be covered all the time cause these men, cannot be held accountable for what they would do if they see this woman's body. Now, what a strange god to have made her such an alluring creature and to have made the men so weak. "

Absolutely!

When I was there in 2004, I didn't do a headcount or anything, but you may be right about that, Madame. Although you'd be surprise how many Arab folks are indeed Christian. Nevertheless, the Christians in the region seem to be adopting a strategy toward the ongoing conflict popular in geographic areas like mine: "My name ain't Bennett, and I'm not in it."

Nice, Susan, very nice. :)

I'm sorry, I meant, "Nice, STELLAA, very nice."

Now about the men, what is it about them and facial hair. The Christian facial hair is limited to the Orthodox priests. Which we lovingly used to call: Trago papas. Which means Goat priest. I guess they are accentuating their masculinity, wearing their male hormones as pride.

OMG! Do they offer that purple and green one for men? I might get a plus size for myself regardless, that is HOT! Plus, it appears as though the material will repel water, so it can double for a wet suit. I need the link to this company.

For all who are so amused, I'd like to know how you'd respond if an African American swimsuit were included.

what's your point, Sally? Is "African American" suddenly a religious designation in which males assume the right to restrict the clothing choices of females on pain of punishment? That's news to me.

Sally, I don't think this is personal. I missed the other threads, but I find the similarity interesting and telling. Telling in that all three find the need for cover the woman. I personally, will defend the right for all three to practice their belief, but...it is an interesting side by side expose, particularly since people think this is limited to the Moslems.

There is nothing at all wrong with choosing to cover yourself at the beach, or anywhere for that matter. But if you are wearing these suits because your religion forcibly mandates female modesty in this way - well, quite another matter. I can't speak for anyone else - but any negative feelings I have about these bathing costumes are directed at the male-enforced cultural beliefs behind them, and not at the women who feel they must follow them.

The author’s potential to properly explore the misogyny inherent in religious fundamentalism is astonishingly derailed by the flippant and scathing fundamentalism of what I gather to be her own xenophobia as illustrated by the vitriolic question, “Religious extremists, why don't they just go have their own country somewhere and leave the rest of us alone,” when juxtaposed under the images of modest bathing garments. There is a broad spectrum of religious observance, even within religious fundamentalism, in which to critically explore the various ways in which gender roles are expressed and suppressed. Wishing people away because of what comes across as distaste for their mode of dress is tactless, let alone dangerous. And let’s not forget that western secular woman's wear has its own extensive collection of misogynistic fashions and trends that represent another important kind of fundamentalism, albeit on the flip side of the coin.

Well...knowing this poster and her history in defending the rights of minorities, I understand that it may know her sentiments and her history of defending human rights. Multiculturalism, Challenging Western Ideals

Sorry, I can't dismiss these swimsuits out of hand as signs of the Evil Religious Patriarchy.

As a fat, pale, pagan American, I love that red suit especially! My sisters may run around naked under the Moon, but when it comes to the sun, you can count me out. I don't NEED to show my flesh, and it's not a good idea aesthetically -- or medically.

We think we're so superior here in the US, but in all seriousness, the right to bare arms, legs, midriffs, butt cheeks, etc. is reserved only for a minority.

If it's the woman's choice to wear these swimsuits, I'm fine with it. If she is doing it against her will, I am not. Many women in this country have converted to Islam and wear a headscarf of their own free will because it expresses their faith. It's as simple as that and I don't detect any sexism there.

My father died of skin cancer and I have a 50% chance of getting melanoma myself so when I go to the beach and know I'm going ahead of time, I wear a long gauze skirt or pants and loose long-sleeved gauzy tops topped off by a floopy wide-brimmed hat. I'm allergic to sunscreen. Some people might look at me and think I'm dressed that way for religious reasons. I'd hate for them to wish I'd have my own country and go there.

Stellaa, I can't speak to beards, but I looked for men's modest clothing, and strangely enough, could not find much...

Monsieur, your swimsuit is glorious, as is yours, Sandra.

Janet, I know your post is meant tongue-in-cheek, but you do technically have the right to wear a skimpy swimsuit. I have no issue with people wearing any of the above for practical secular reasons. It's when, as Sandra noted, they wear these because the religion mandates it that I have a moral problem.

However, and here I want to address Matt Brandstein's comment also, I am a firm believer in absolute freedom of expression. Perhaps my comment on the post about the three religious extremists moving to another country was inartful -- i meant merely to point out the striking similarity of the strictures they impose on female adherents. I will defend all of their rights to wear wahtever they want and to practice their religious freely here in the US. I do have a problem with them making their idiosyncratic beliefs the law and thus binding me to their particular creeds. But, I'll repeat, i don't actally want anyone to leave. It was meant just as a way to point out their similarities.

Finally, Sally, I don't know why you said that. As Sandra pointed out, this has nothing to do with race, but with extreme adherents to religious rules. There are Jews, Christians and Muslims of all races, as you know. And yes, i think that anyone who forces female adherents or their own children to follow these "modesty" rules is a religious extremist.

I meant to say WHO have converted to Islam. I made it sound like everyone was converting to Islam and wearing head scarves.

PF, just want to point out again that I don't actually want anyone to leave the country -- i was just trying to show that they could all get along famously if they realized how much they have in common.

And the matter of "choice" is a complicated one. If the women above choose to wear what they wear, do the FLDS women in Texas in the polygamous compound also choose to be there and follow all the rules? I'm on the fence on this one. On the one hand, I don't want to paternalistically assume I know what's better for these women than they do themselves, but at the same time, it's easy to imagine how someone brought up in a deeply misogynistic culture (which is any of the religious extremist cultures referenced above) might not even realize the misogyny inherent in the "choices" she is making.

Well as the only Chassidic Jew to comment so far, I can tell you that actually I don't know anyone who wears these swimsuits, although I've heard about them. (I think they're mainly for going to a public beach or pool.) I go to a summer retreat where we have a women-only pool, and everyone wears whatever they want. Some are more covered, some less, but by Jewish law, you don't have to be all covered up in the presence of other women, only men who are not your husband. PS Stellaa, the idea is that men in fact CAN be held accountable for "what they would do if they see this woman's body." Personally I have no interest in showing off my body to the whole world. That's only between me and my husband. Some women may need the validation of the stares of strangers. I don't.

MB, you have a valid point there and one that is hard to answer. True, the FLDS women say they wear what they do of their own choosing and, if I examine my true feelings, I think they are brainwashed. I think anything to the extreme is unhealthy. I just don't know where we draw the line between moderation and extremity. I had a friend, raised in a fairly secular family in North Carolina, who decided to convert to Islam and wear a headscarf. Her father worked for the phone company and her mother was a teacher. She was in college at the time and we had lost touch but from what I heard, she was taking religious studies and decided to adopt the religion on her own. I guess she liked what she read. In her case, I don't think anyone can claim a culture of misogyny made her choices for her.

I do, however, think a woman's upbringing could convince her subconsciously to make certain "choices" that she thinks are hers but certainly are not.

All in all, I don't think any broad assumptions can be made. Women need to be regarded as individuals. I think many are not and I disagree with many cultures and goverments that restrict women's rights or force their clothing choices. Saudi Arabia, maddeningly our ally, is a prime example. Forcing a woman to cover herself, forbidding her from driving, voting, participating in the Olympics (this one really gets me), or doing anything a man is allowed to do appalls me to no end.

It is said that Middle-eastern men want their women--wives and daughters--all covered up in public, but love ogling scantily clad Western women. In London, sheiks and sultans have been reported to hire female sex workers for orgies in their hotels and homes. In short, as good old patriarchs they fiercely protect the modesty of their women, but prey on the rest of womankind, just like the rest of humanity's machos whose one true religion is the Double Standard of sexual morality. I have no quarrel with women wearing fundamentalist swimsuits, forced upon them by the dominant maledom. I only wish they could liberate themselves from patriarchy and fundamentalist religion. If only all oppressed women, East, Middle-East and West, would discover Greer and Dawkins and other true prophets, and substitute their enlightened works as replacement for their culture's unholy, anti-woman writs!

Makes you appreciate the women's beach volleyball players doesn't it?

The red one's actually pretty.

Devorah, so basically, you don't ever go swimming with your family at any co-ed beach?

Black Bart, yes it does.

Bellafor, I've encountered this mentality among many Sephardic Jews as well as Muslim men -- let the young men sow their oats with non-Jewish/Muslim women in Europe/the US, and then they come home and marry a nice, upstanding pure girl.

Pf, I think we agree the question of choice is a tough one.

Eric, someone else mentioned they liked the red one...

More than ever we (humans all over the world) need to let people be people. No Muslima (female muslim) I've ever met was forced to wear the hijab. In fact, one Yemeni friend of mine was convinced to take her hijab off by her own father. It is no one's business whether these so called "misogynistic" faiths force modesty on anyone. Unless, you are completely coherent in the language of the book of the religion and have had a plethora of experiences with people of said religions, you should really look to your own culture and worship to find why you think that of others.
A quick side note on Saudi Arabia. This is a nation built on the beliefs of Moh'd ibn abd al-Wahhab who live in the 18th century. He went against everything that Islam was at that time because of a dislike for the Ottoman empire. He was also backed by British emissaries in order to cause a disturbance within the strong Ottoman empire. The majority of the scholars at that time did not agree with what his interpretation of the Koran. Therefore, to this day, the views of the Saudi government has little to do with the pure Islam.
Women's modesty has been important since the beginning of time in many cultures, from Hindi to ethnic Hmong people in Southern China and SE Asia to the people of the modern Middle East, and to many native American peoples.
Men's modesty has been equally important. In "middle Eastern" culture it is highly disrespectful for a man to show their legs or arms. Men are supposed to cover their heads also (if they are religious).
I hope that by this post, those who don't know, but believe they know can stop and reflect on their own ignorance ( i say this word without meaning any disrespect since we are all ignorant in something) and prejudices against those who are different than themselves.

Luvlilayla, what is true Islam? Sunni or Shiite?

No Muslima (female muslim) I've ever met was forced to wear the hijab.

So if you've never met one, that means they don't exist? I don't understand this argument.

It is no one's business whether these so called "misogynistic" faiths force modesty on anyone.

Yes, actually, it is. We have this thing called "universal human rights" that some of us believe in, and two core principles underscoring most of the rights is equality of the sexes and the right to self-determination and independence of each human person, and of peoples. Being forced to wear various clothing, being denied various rights and opportunities, and being forced into certain gender roles because you are female violates those principles.

Unless, you are completely coherent in the language of the book of the religion and have had a plethora of experiences with people of said religions, you should really look to your own culture and worship to find why you think that of others.

Personally, I've met more Muslim people than I can count, and I'm an atheist, so...

A quick side note on Saudi Arabia....Therefore, to this day, the views of the Saudi government has little to do with the pure Islam.

This is called the True Scotsman fallacy.

Women's modesty has been important since the beginning of time in many cultures, from Hindi to ethnic Hmong people in Southern China and SE Asia to the people of the modern Middle East, and to many native American peoples.

Slavery has also been a staple of human cultures around the world. So, that means... what exactly?

Madame, no I really don't go swimming with my family at beaches, and it's not been a damper on my life. We do other things. (I also don't have a TV, but as you can see, I manage to find out what's going on in the world anyway.)

I'm all for people wearing what they want, as long as they don't think the entire planet has to conform to their worldview. I think hijabs are great, if you happen to be Muslim. I think dressing "tznius" (Hebrew for "modest") is great, if you happen to be Jewish. But do I think that others are terrible, or beneath me, or going to burn, because they don't do as I do? Of course not.

As far as Sephardic Jews, it's not really my crowd so I can't comment, but I can say that tznius -- which is about both behaviour and dress -- applies to both men and women. I do know that the idea of "sowing wild oats" is so foreign to my community that most young men would have no clue what you were talking about. "Wild" is not exactly a favourable concept 'round here. It's our job to understand both that G-d gave us instincts, and also that He gave us the ability to control our instincts. Without the ability to control instincts, whether it's going through a red light or killing your neighbor, it's impossible to have a functioning society. It all fits together, ultimately. The ability to control yourself in one area, trains you in the ability to control yourself in others.

Devorah, first i just want to stress that i welcome your input and point of view, and that I also don't have a TV.

You write that not going swimming with your family has not been a damper on your life. This is specious -- many women DO want to go swimming with their families, that's why that Jewish swimsuit above exists, and why the burkini has been so popular among Muslim women. When you write that you've never seen one of those Jewish swimsuits, that goes to show that you're even more conservative than the woman who would wear that swimsuit -- you don't go swimming with your family at all.

I'm all for people wearing what they want, as long as they don't think the entire planet has to conform to their worldview.

I agree with this statement also, and I really don't want to imply that I know what's better for you than you do. However, it's striking how focused all three Abramaic religions are on women's modesty, and on restricting women's actions in various ways. Surely you're not going to argue that in your hasidic community, women have just as many rights and duties and freedoms as men?

As far as Sephardic Jews, it's not really my crowd so I can't comment,

Yeah, I imagine there aren't many Sephardic Hassids :).

I do know that the idea of "sowing wild oats" is so foreign to my community that most young men would have no clue what you were talking about. "Wild" is not exactly a favourable concept 'round here.

Sure, but in other less orthodox communities, it is alive and well. i came into contact with throngs of Sephardic Jewish men in France from all over the Mediterranean sowing their oats, but no Sephardic Jewish women. Then, a couple of years later, these party boys marry nice Jewish girls from their home countries. Same thing happens with various Muslim men from the middle east. It's yet another cultural commonality.

It's our job to understand both that G-d gave us instincts, and also that He gave us the ability to control our instincts. Without the ability to control instincts, whether it's going through a red light or killing your neighbor, it's impossible to have a functioning society. It all fits together, ultimately. The ability to control yourself in one area, trains you in the ability to control yourself in others.

I don't really want to get into what kind of god would give you the ability to violate his strictures and then punish you for doing so, but I will say that wearing skimpy clothes and eating bacon does not impinge in any way on my ability to have a work ethic, to conform my behavior to the law, etc. :)

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Red. I'd rather have all that sexiness than a culture that stresses female modesty. I am the same age as Britney Spears, I grew up with her, and I turned out okay? i don't know if that means anything.

I feel like 40-ish years ago, people were freaking out about Elvis' gyrating pelvis, screaming Beatles' fans, and how if we let girls wear pants to school, they sky will come crashing down...

"Women's modesty has been important since the beginning of time in many cultures, from Hindi to ethnic Hmong people in Southern China and SE Asia to the people of the modern Middle East, and to many native American peoples."

"Slavery has also been a staple of human cultures around the world. So, that means... what exactly?"
To use SLAVERY to compare to modesty. You have got to be joking, right?

So MB. Do you speak arabic? Have you read the Koran? Do you understand the difference between culture and religion? I suspect the first 2 questions to be answered as "no". I would be highly surprised if you knew the inner workings of the plethora of cultures and traditions that people practice alongside their religion. I lived in Yemen, spent time in Africa, Middle East, Central Asia, Caucuses, and Turkey. In Uzbekistan, most Uzbeki women wore loose dresses with short sleeves. It is so hot there that most women don't wear the full hijab. In chapter 2 verse 256 it states that there is NO compulsion in religion as long as you truly believe in Allah and not in the negative force. In Islam it does not say that women need to wear a particular outfit, it says to keep your modesty and don't needlessly bring attention to yourself. It is the people of the religion who admire the wives of the Prophet and what they did. Because of these women high spiritual accomplishments, they had the most sincere modesty. Like "tznius" in arabic it is called "hiyaa" There is no purpose for a person who is not modest in behavior be modest in dress.

MB. No one has the right to tell any culture that the way they live is wrong. Mothers, fathers and family do have rights over the rest of their family members. They live in pluralistic societies where family is very important and so is "keeping up of appearances."
BTw. I was raised in an atheist family, even they had restrictions on what was appropriate attire for personal and private occasions for me and my brothers.
Many in the world think of my American culture as being ugly and distasteful. Many would even say that my culture uses women and their sex to sell goods and appeal to a certain desire of a man. How misogynist is that? There is nothing "wrong" with the people of Islamic culture to want to protect their daughters, sisters, mothers and aunts from men trying to have relationships outside of the normal rules of their culture with their family. Their culture does not live the way American or western culture does.

You won't find that only in Islamic culture, you will find it in Japanese, Chinese, Indian, many SE Asian, and African cultures.
To talk about Human Rights the way you do is a copout. You apparently do not know anything about the religions that you so eagerly put down. It also appears that you don't know anything about the history, culture or upbringing of their modern societies.
With that I must say salaam alikum to you.

A note to all who at least try to think outside of your world. Keep striving to understand others. Let Muslims wear whatever they want, let the traditions of the Jewish people be what they are, let the world be the way it is without passing judgement. Remember there is no One right way for everyone to live. Even in the Qur'an it states that there will always be those who will not believe in what you believe, so let them be.

To talk about Human Rights the way you do is a copout.

You don't explain how it is a copout.

You apparently do not know anything about the religions that you so eagerly put down. It also appears that you don't know anything about the history, culture or upbringing of their modern societies.

Actually, i know quite a bit. Like I said earlier, i know Muslims from Burkina Faso to Singapore. I've discussed women's voting rights with a Muslim woman from Kuwait. I've gone dancing with Muslim Palestinians and Albanians, I've discussed drinking with Muslim Turks, i've smoked the shisha with Muslim Lebanese. There's much more to be learned, but I am not some chauvinistic unexposed American passing judgment on other cultures.

I will defend the Muslims', Jews' and Christians' right to practice their religions freely here in the US, and to be free from discrimination. I'm against racial profiling. But, that said, I believe there are universal rights and ethical standards that I won't allow someone to get a pass on just because their spaghetti monster told them to. Moreover, it's fully within my rights to disagree with religious teachings and to criticize them. You're not going to get a pass from me just because you do something because it says so in a religious book rather than for some other reason.

You write: "No one has the right to tell any culture that the way they live is wrong." Actually, I do have that right, and i'll tell you, all of the following are very wrong, and there is no excuse for them, neither "it's my religion," nor "it's my regional culture":
- beating your wife
- forcing your wife to stay at home
- not letting women/blacks/jews/etc. vote
- female circumcision
- terrorism
- murdering doctors who practice what you don't believe
- the death penalty

I could go on and on. All of the aforementioned religions have adherents that are guilty of many of the above. Secular societies are guilty of them too. I condemn them also.

To use SLAVERY to compare to modesty. You have got to be joking, right?

I'm not comparing slavery to modesty. I'm comparing your reasoning for justifying imposing modesty standards on women. How can the same reasoning be valid to justify one thing, but invalid to justify another?

Red, I have no problem with people being modest for reasons of taste or fashion. It's when they do it because god told them to that I have an issue. It's even worse when they compel their children to do something because god told them to.

Some of the most unhappy people I've ever seen are gay orthodox Jews. They've been indocrinated with orthodox Judaism since birth, and they couldn't just let it all go. They so full of anguish and self-doubt about who they are, and it really made me think about how in their case, the religious indoctrination is almost akin to child abuse.

Ultimately all these controversies boil down to universalism v. relativism. If I watch a foreign society systematically murder some group within it, do I really have to immerse myself in their "culture" in order to comment. If I watch some foreign society systematically subjugate some group within it, do I really have to learn their language before I can comment?

Sounds like demands for prerequisites that were designed to mute any criticism whatsoever. After all, how many of us have the time and energy to fully live in a culture before making comment? Among this small group, how many could so immerse themselves without "going native?"

Did someone say swimsuit?

Madame, actually YES I happily and confidently argue that Chassidic women have just as many rights, responsibilities, and freedoms as Chassidic men -- in fact more so in some areas, more complicated than space allows here. In brief: I am also required to pray, although I am given more freedom as to the structure of my prayers than men. I am also required to keep the Sabbath and other holidays, etc. All requirements of daily life are just as incumbent upon me as my husband. In many areas, such as the kosher-ness of my kitchen, I am trusted implicitly. No rabbi certifies my kitchen.

Certainly I don't experience anything even vaguely similar to the restrictions on Muslim women in certain Muslim countries (such as not driving, not leaving the house without a familial male escort, etc.), and am provided with ample rights, equal to men's, in Jewish law. In fact, in many areas, women's rights supersede that of men. Jewish law was the first to ensure women's property and inheritance rights. Muslim women still don't have that.

The idea of freedom of choice in Judaism is that, yes, G-d gives me the ability to choose, and accept the consequences for my actions. (And yes this is antithetical to the American outlook that celebrates the take-no-responsibility angle.) If I were struck with a bolt of lightning for eating nonkosher food, for example, it wouldn't be much of a choice. On the other hand, what kind of a "god" would only want automatons who only follow orders? Is my computer "good" because it turns on when I tell it to? It's related that when G-d was going to give the Torah to Moses on Mt. Sinai, the angels protested that humans were unworthy of such an honor. Moses answered the angels, in part: It says honor your father and mother. You have none. Do not steal? You possess no desire to steal. Have no other gods? You have no interest in other gods. You are only capable of good. The Torah, all the laws, were given not as restrictions but as opportunities to become better, to refine our thought, speech and action.

PS To clarify, I go swimming with my kids, not with my husband, just because it works out this way time-wise (we have as busy a life as anyone else), although in private, at the proper time, that would be perfectly okay too.

I like the one at top middle. It's multi-purpose. In the evening you could just ditch the jersey, add a string of pearls, and Voila!, you're ready for cocktails (sans wedgie, of course.)

Aside to Madame B. - for an atheist, you've certainly stirred up a hornet's nest of religious advocacy! We non-believers are happy to be outside, looking in.

Devorah Goldstein, you sit in the back of the synagogue, don't you? :) Now you might say, "oh, in our synagogue, we sit side by side" but you know as well as I do that being side by side doesn't take away from the fact that in Hasidism, Jewish men are primarily responsible for prayer, philosophy, yeshiva studies, etc., and the women mostly are homemakers.

As for "what kind of god?" It seems to me that a god who is all-powerful and all-loving would just put everyone in heaven immediately, instead of making people "earn it" with self-denial, following his arbitrary rules, while this god makes his existence open to doubt and never really confirms it. It would be like if I had a child, and I was constantly asking the child to prove his love and obedience, instead of loving the child unconditionally and trying to provide the best for that child. I would not make child suffer just to have him or her prove that he loves me/deserves my love/deserves to be in the family. It seems cruel and unnecessary.

Wayne, I'm an atheist, but I believe in freedom of thought, and the rights of all the wackos to worship equally freely.

Choice is an individual decision, not one that is made for an identified group by coercion, or even by conditioning.

MB, you carried a lot of water here. Sorry, I wasn't around to lend a hand.

Madame, suffice to say that as the only actual Chassidic woman in the conversation, I actually know quite better than you what my roles and responsibilities are, as well as the depth and breadth of my education, religious responsibilities, etc. And no, the vast majority of the married women I know work as well as care for their families (with their husbands' involvement, stereotypes notwithstanding). I'm not trying to persuade you to believe as I do, any more than you think you're going to get me to believe as you do. Simply understand that many of your perceptions of my way of life are based on myth, stereotype, negative assumptions, and lack of information.

Here you have a real, live Chassidic woman, telling you what my life is actually like. You can like what you hear or not like it, but no, you don't know as well as I do.

As to your perceptions of "god," I can only respond to you this story: A Chassidic Rebbe was once approached by someone with very similar concerns to yours, who told this Rebbe that, because of these things, he didn't believe in G-d. The Rebbe responded, "The god you don't believe in, I also don't believe in." In other words, your interpretation bears no resemblance to the Jewish conception of G-d. This doesn't mean you have to look into it, read up on it, ask knowledgeable people about it, just that what you're describing is not the G-d that I pray to.

Devorah Goldstein, on god, any other god is not worthy of worship, even if he or she or they exist.

And on the roles of Hasidic women, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Devorah, why is the human body immodest? Why is it vulgar by nature? Why would that god, make something that offends him on a daily basis and needs to be covered when it enters his place of worship?: The female head--I will not even mention the rest of the body. You may be happy with this rule that has come down in your culture, but can you understand why some of us, don't quite believe that god says it, but some guys who got together and told everyone they speak for god. Why some of us think that it was a bunch of guys who got together and wanted to keep what the power they had over women.

There are vast areas of commentary and Jewish thought over the centuries that place women much higher than men spiritually and physically. If anything, I wouldn't want to be a man, because it would be a step down from my place in Judaism. My soul is considered higher, my connection to G-d more immediate and tangible, my body perfect (which is why it is the vessel of conception and birth). Who would want to be a man when I was lucky enough to be born a woman.

I'm perfectly happy to answer these questions as best I can, from my perspective. I totally get that you have a different view, and I'm certainly not trying to proselytize. There are obviously very well-read and intelligent people on this board, which is why I encourage you to look to the sources.

Remember, if brilliant scholars for 35 centuries have managed to find something to chew over, it's probably not so simple and dismissible as you think.

The beginning of my comment got cut off -- oops. I started by saying that no, the body is not considered vulgar; quite the opposite. It's because it's considered holy and precious that it's not exposed all the time. As with anything precious and special, it's protected. And the regulations about dress are no less incumbent upon me in a Walmart than they are in a synagogue. It's the body, not it's location, that makes the difference. For example: We protect a Torah scroll the following way: (1) it's rolled, (2) belted, (3) covered with a fitted mantle, (4) placed in an ark (5) over which a curtain is drawn and (6) doors are closed over the curtain. Now, would you posit that this is done because G-d finds a Torah vulgar? Of course not. The body is considered private and special, only for those closest to us. You wouldn't hand out photocopies of your journal (without a nom de cyber, I mean) to total strangers, so why should I "hand out" my body?

As to your comment that you believe that men created these laws to subjugate women, I suggest that you look into a Talmud, which is basically the court record of Jewish thought and law throughout the ages, to see how the sages strove to understand and apply the laws that were G-d - given, in a way that was both true and practical. The arguments are all recorded. You will see plainly that subjugation was the least of their concerns. (Yes, I'm allowed to learn Talmud, too.)

If anything, I could make a good argument that the laws of daily life are far more strict on the men than on the women, not because the women aren't "allowed" to do such-and-such, but because our role is considered higher and our responsibilities often trump the strictures. If a woman were running to synagogue to daven (pray) with the men in a minyan (quorum of ten), but her kids were not being properly taken care of, while another woman were to daven at home on her own (perfectly legit in Jewish law), and was there for her kids and her myriad other responsibilities, who would you say is truly fulfilling her role in the world to the best of her ability? We all know plenty of women who are considered powerhouses in their careers or their organizations, but their kids are a mess. It's the same idea, basically. Everyone has their own set of responsibilities, and going to minyan is certainly not more important than taking care of my kids. If everyone paddles on the right, you go in circles. You need everyone doing what they need to do, so that you move foward as a unit.