We spent a lot of our summer camping in a National Park where the animals are protected. We saw moose, deer and a hoard of other animals and birds which are breathtaking. So how can someone look down the barrel of a gun, and shoot Bambi? I simply don’t understand this lack of respect for life and its cruelty.
Some hunters are quite serious about what they do. They feel they are bringing home the bacon so to speak, (even though bacon can be bought easily in any grocery store) and feast on the carcass for the months to come. I have tasted both moose and deer meat myself, simply to ‘know’. It is no delicacy. Just meat. I would personally rather some chicken or a nice bovine steak, raised purely for the purpose of eating. Unless one is desperately poor, and this is a one of the main sources of protein, then I would be more forgiving. But we know that is rarely the case.
Some, (and many) hunters are yahoos. They make camp, drink a lot of beer and shoot at anything that moves. There is not much difference between those hunters and those above, as they are still killing animals for sport. But the stories of local cows being blasted, hikers just missing being blown to smithereens are all too common.
How someone can look down the barrel of a gun, and shoot these beautiful creatures is beyond me. The deer in the Park come within 5 feet, safe in the knowledge they will not be harmed. The hunted deer are often terrorized by men (and women) plunging through the woods, or quietly sitting in wait to blast the life out of these beautiful beasts. And they find pleasure in it. How?
It is bad enough that the meat we buy in the grocery store probably comes from agricultural factories, but let’s face it – we don’t find pleasure in that. It is simply food and if we choose, we can not eat meat at all. We do not find the need to kill even more animals because it is ‘fun’. At least this meat is raised domestically with nothing but the intent to provide food.
Then we come to the seal hunt. I don’t care what other Canadians think. It is brutal. I have seen video of the event and to watch baby seals clubbed over the head with nailed bats is simply horrific. The mothers watch and literally cry. The arguments that the seals eat the much desired cod is a load of crap. The reason for lack of cod is over fishing. The claim that this brings much needed income to the hunters is also incorrect. The percentage of money per year that the seal hunters (who are fisherman during the year for the most part) is extremely small. It is tradition and ‘orneriness’ that continue this brutal practice. The more people object, the more they insist on their ‘reasoning’.
So, what’s the deal with hunting? Is it a lack of respect for life? Is it an attitude of disposability? Is it a sense of power? Greed? Frankly, I don’t know – I don’t care. But I do know, in my world view it is unacceptable.
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Larry Nocella
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Honestly I don't get why you can be ok with meat in the grocery store which came from animals that were tortured their entire lives until they made it to the butcher, but not ok with animals that have lived in the wild up until the day they are shot dead. I think it is hypocritical and self-indulgent.
Deer, elk, moose, even wild hogs, CAN be extremely destructive and it doesn't take many to negatively impact a farmer badly enough so that they are in bankruptcy. Yes, there are people around like Ted Nugent (Sorry Uncle Ted) who take great pleasure in hunting... but on the flip side there are also those who hunt ONLY because doing so prevents great damage to their property AND to their incomes.
Not EVERY hunter drinks, not EVERY hunter takes pleasure in the necessity, not EVERY hunter stomps through the woods like a column of advancing infantry, etc... and painting them ALL with the brush that says that they are ALL the same is no different than saying "black people..." or "white people..." or "Jews...". In reality ETHICAL hunters outnumber the drunks, the ones who take pleasure, etc... about 3 to 1. The problem is that, just like every OTHER group of people, it's the idiots who make headlines.
The question isn't WHY people do it... the question is "where do we draw the line?". FOR ME, and I have taught this to EVERY hunter's safety class I have taught, "IF you aren't prepared to EAT it, don't shoot at it!"
There is SOME hunting that is just plain flat wrong... Hunting elephants for their ivory is flat wrong. Hunting seals is flat wrong. Hunting whales is flat wrong. Hunting the big cats is flat wrong. Hunting ANY animal that you are not prepared to EAT is flat wrong.
Wakan Tanka nici un.
Ely
You COULD have stopped at the first paragraph. The second was completely unnecessary and does precisely nothing other than make it seem as though you are belittling someone rather than trying to help them understand. It is THAT very behavior that keeps hunters at odds with non-hunters.
Wakan Tanka nici un.
Ely
Culling IS done by state environmental departments in addition to hunting season. Unfortunately, culling that is done by the environmental departments leaves the animals dead where they were killed which leads to increases in the numbers of predators which leads to culling the predators and it becomes a very vicious circle.
The other issue is that for many states the sale of hunting and fishing licenses is a HUGE amount of their non-tax revenue and so they *won't* outlaw hunting. It makes them too much money.
Also, have you ever MET a baby cow? Calves are pretty darn cute too... I think if people are going to be squemish about killing their meat, they shouldn't eat any meat. That neatly wrapped stuff at the grocery store had a mom too.
I sense that I won't sway you, but here's my reasons:
1) Deer meat tastes delicious. If you don't feel as enthusiastic about it, that's fine, but it DOES have a noticeably different flavor from beef, and some people really enjoy that.
2) Deer spend their lives running free in the forest. That's more than you can say for most domestic cows/lambs/pigs. Yes, the slaughter industry is slightly less repulsive than it used to be, but I have friends who have worked in slaughter houses, so I have heard first hand reports of how it's done. You can't tell me that being herded into a packed truck, and then led into a blood-coated room, where some guy shoots you in the head with a airgun is a pleasant death.
3) Deer are overpopulated in many areas, causing starvation among other things (not a pleasant way to die, I'd imagine). The government DOES have a culling program, and controlled hunting is part of that.
4) There's this notion that somehow it's okay to kill chickens, cows and so forth because we've collectively decided that they're SUPPOSED to be killed for their meat. Which... okay fine. But then accept that a large chunk of society also finds it acceptable to designate animals like deer and moose as animals as "food animals" as well.
5) You make it sound as if all hunters get pleasure out of the sight of blood and viscera. Not true. We simply don't flinch at the thought of actually killing our own food, instead of letting some anonymous slaughterhouse worker do it for us.
I know much more about Indigenous hunting/fishing in the US than I do in Canada, even though I live in Canada. I was born and raised in the US though so it's natural that I would know more about them from a US perspective.
The pleasure is not in the taking of life. The pleasure comes from participating in the circle of life.
Animals die. Animals hunt each other in vicious and painful ways. Deer ran in terror for their lives way before humans ever came along. We cannot deny that. However, due to urban sprawl, many animals such as deer no longer have the predator population to balance them out that they used to.
Again, I can't speak to hunting practices in bulk (e.g. the seal massacres, the whale hunters) - I'm speaking as a person who trudges into the woods with a shotgun to take down my alloted number of deer for the season.
I have never felt closer to nature than when I hunt. You can feel it all around you - in the rustle of tree leaves in the wind, the bubbling of the creek nearby... it's all beautiful and wonderful. I don't feel like an invader - I feel like a participant. I don't feel bad that I'm killing a deer - it's part of life. I do firmly believe that if you're going to kill it, you need to eat it, however.
Generally speaking, most hunters send the animals to a commercial butcher to be processed. In Michigan, I don't know about other states, deer taken the Lower Peninsula are/were required to be inspected by the DNR (Department of Natural Resources) and samples given to them for testing IF the deer were taken in one of the 8 or 10 counties where Bovine TB is in the deer herd. I don't know if the 3 or 4 counties in the Upper Peninsula where CWD is have the same requirements or not.
Please forgive the Environmental Engineer for a minute here... One of the ways to PREVENT diseases such as CWD and Bovine TB from spreading, and they WILL spread, is to keep the numbers of the herd low so that the deer don't have as many opportunities to SPREAD the disease. If we ALLOW diseases such as CWD and Bovine TB to infect the entire population, and I am not talking about just in Michigan or Wisconsin, it will be a VERY short time before the diseases that hunters help to keep in check by the simple expedient of hunting start infecting the herds in other states as well (that's how Michigan wound up with deer that have CWD and I would BET that parts of Minnesota and Ontario have CWD in the herd as well).
One last thing here... I am one of the millions of people in the world who is highly allergic to antibiotics. It is not possible to purchase meat in the grocery store that has NOT been treated with antibiotics. If it comes down to a choice between eating venison (which I really don't care for) and eating meat from a store that COULD kill me... I'm eating venison. Fortunately for me, we raise most of what we eat so that I, and 3 of my children who are ALSO highly allergic to antibiotics, don't HAVE to make that particular choice. I h ave NO problem lopping the head off a chicken... but I'm NOT shooting Bambi. Not shooting Ferdinand or Wilbur either.
I wonder if part of our disconnect has to do with where we grew up. Where are you from? I myself grew up in the country, and I feel like country people (particularly those from areas that specialize in dairy or other products) tend to be more mellow about the idea of killing animals. Is it because we're more directly exposed to animals tagged for human consumption? I had plenty of pets growing up, but I also remember the day the truck came to take our pigs away when I was just 4 years old (and then being surprised at how much more bacon and pork we were suddenly eating).
I don't buy the camera issure though :-)
I have relatives who shoot at the deer from their front porch. This says a lot, in my opinion, when you won't even step off your freaking front porch. I mean, damn.
You did make my day though for your positive support. :-)
Rural areas though have a larger problem. They don't have either the facilities OR the money to create facilities that allow them to store meat. What USUALLY happens in rural areas with food pantries (soup kitchens and homeless shelters are rare things in rural areas in the US) is that perishables, including meats, are donated by local grocery stores. When you go to the food pantry you fill out the paperwork and pick up canned goods and dry goods from the food pantry and then they give you a form that you take to the local grocery store where someone at the courtesy counter fills the rest of your needs according to the paperwork that you give them.
Once again, health department regulations come into play. Most stores aren't allowed to even store wild game so there's no place to put it for storage until someone needs it as a general rule. I know that there are places like the Northland Sportsmen's Club in Gaylord Michigan where local sportsmen make wild game available to the local food pantry and have someone available with a phone call to open the clubhouse and give people meat BUT the guys at NSC are a unique bunch and I don't know how many other clubs do the same thing.
On the issue of canning... Commercial canneries *won't* can wild game and home canning isn't a viable means to store large amounts of wild game if you want to donate it to somewhere because, once again, health department regulations require that if you are donating or selling it that it MUST be preserved in a commercial kitchen.
@Odette... "hunting" from the front porch would earn someone a cast iron frying pan up aside the head around me. THAT is neither hunting NOR the least sportsman like!
You're also right in your response to Odette - I disdain people who fire off their porches, because that's not hunting. That's sniping, and it's bad for both animals AND humans (stray bullets don't discriminate).
I do appreciate that the discussion has been lively but respectful here. I understand your points, and hopefully I have given you a little insight into my own position as well. :)
"I would personally rather some chicken or a nice bovine steak, raised purely for the purpose of eating."
You're a hypocrite, and besides that you don't think very well. Do you think it's somehow more ethical to eat meat that someone else killed for you? And if so, please tell me why you think that.
Secondly, there would be very little reason to cull prey animals if trophy hunters didn't kill all the predators.
Let me say that I don't oppose hunting, but many "hunters" lease a piece of land, use an automatic feeder all year long to attract animals and when the season comes along go out and shoot the animals that have learned to come to that place for food. To me this is akin to going out in your backyard and shooting your dog.
If your going to hunt, I say, strip naked, put a big bowie knife between your teeth, go out and chase that son-of-a-bitch down and slit it's throat. Now that's what I call hunting.
It is the pleasure in the kill itself that I personally find off-putting. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that is your point as well. Clearly, most hunters kill for the joy of it and not out of neccessity.
I would almost suggest you re-write this post. Leave the original, but perhaps try restating your argument more clearly. As written above, your point isn't clear.
What element of "pleasure" bothers you? Is taking pleasure from the flavor of an animal more/less repellant to you than someone enjoying the act of the hunt?
Is it possible you're over-generalizing here? Some of your statements above seem too broad and a little uninformed - I know a lot of hunters and not one of them uses automatic feeder. Not one of them hunts off his or her porch.
I'm interested in your thoughts on the ethics of using a bow and arrow, versus shotgun/rifle. I'd also like you to address what your issue truly is here: that an animal is being killed at all? Or that you don't approve of the method by which the animal is killed? I
When we say "nature" we usually view humans as being outside of nature. We are in fact a product of and a part of the natural eco-system.
We are predators and omnivores. Therefore, one could argue that hunting is our natural inclination and subsequently, a more ecologically sound means of procuring food than ranching or farming.
who is desperately trying to get the last of his feta cheese eaten (love the image),before he gives up milk, I am working my way through the dissolution of meat in my diet. I doubt he did it overnight either.
I do not like either hunting, nor the method of dealing with our domesticated animals. Hunting however, as John has stated - involves pleasure. I bet the guys and gals working in the slaughterhouse find no pleasure other than their paycheck.
What I take pleasure in is:
1) being outdoors in a way that you don't really do in this day and age anymore
2) testing my skills as a hunter and marksman
3) eating delicious food
If there was a way to get to #3 without involving the actual death of an animal, that would be fine. The actual moment/idea of killing holds little thrill for me. If I could shoot a deer and hit a target on its side, causing a nicely wrapped vension steak to fall out, as the deer scampered happily away, that would be nice. Since I choose to eat meat, I also choose to live with the fact that animals (many of them cute) have to die for that to happen.
I still repute the idea of 'sadism' as being implied. As I mentioned I have some of the finest neighbours in the world - none of them sadists...and they hunt. They hunt for pleasure, not because they are sadistic. I doubt one of them has a sadistic bone in their body. The opposite of pleasure is not 'sadism' but anhedonism.
You could test your skills as a hunter and marksman at any shooting range.
If you choose to eat meat, which is fair enough - your choice totally - why must it be a wild animal. And to be fair, cute really doesn't factor into my beliefs. Moose are not cute.
I DO agree that slaughterhouses (some of them) are appalling. I was a vegetarian for some time years back...and despite Natanhay's remark that heading that way again doesn't count, I think it does. My repulsion for the slaughter of even domestic animals gives me no 'pleasure' - but I just haven't gotten there yet. Almost...
Popping back in to add a couple of things to the discussion again.
First: one of those things that you appear to NOT understand is that it is NOT the act of KILLING that people find pleasurable but rather what leads up TO it and what FOLLOWS it (i.e. eating what they have killed). A different way to explain it: I ENJOY raising animals. I ENJOY eating meat. I do NOT enjoy killing.
Second: a Sadist is defined as someone who takes pleasure in the discomfort of others. It matters NOT whether the "others" are human or animal. Those who take pleasure in the ACT of killing are one of two things... either a sadist OR a murderer.
But I DO think there are hunters out there who enjoy the process of hunting itself, right down to the killing of the animal. You must admit that exists. The respondents here are sensible, responsible people. I don't think the readers of Salon, however, necessarily respresent the general population. Are there hunters out there who are sadists? I think so.
Yes, pleasure can be brought about by sadism. But I am not implying that all hunters kill animals because they are sadists. I have never said this nor do I believe it. Again, the opposite of pleasure is not sadism. And I believe when you say that for many hunters there is no pleasure in the killing of the animal. This would be anhedonism.
I think you are a person with extremely honed ethics. I do not believe that everyone has your attributes. The process of hunting, the pleasure of the meat after - I still think there is a step missing for some hunters - the thrill of the kill. Some hunters. Perhaps they are sadists. You may be right that some like to hurt or murder. A gun is a powerful thing to put in some people's hands.
I agree with John Walker 100%. Going out with a high powered rifle or bow is hardly hunting, and shooting tame animals is akin to killing your dog...and I would expand to say your children.
It's cruel. Buddha tells us that it is of harsh consequence to be born in the animal world (non-human). They have a very difficult life...much harder than us humans. It is for this reason we should take compassion on them and use our superior position in evolution to bestow care and mercy upon them. Reiterating what they already know (THINGS ARE TRYING TO HURT THEM IN THE WORLD) does nothing to help alleviate their burden. I see the kindness and curiousity in animals every day as I walk: a squirrel will run around the tree and look at me with its cute little nose and eyes. Some run right around my feet as I sit on my porch. I exude a vibe of peace and welcomness and the animals enjoy this and are curious. It is a good thing when they encounter a Buddhist. It is a blessing for all.
But to think of some Old Testament minded person tromping around with their gun or bow shooting at my little friends hurts me to no end...and it sets back the progress of humanity thousandfolds. I believe in a hands off approach to the wild. Man does not need to cull anything. The natural process takes care of it. Our aim should be in the assistance of animals to live out their lives in as comfortable and peaceful opportunity we can afford them. The transitioning of carnivores to herbivores would be better spent tax payer monies than state sponsored slaughter programs. And besides...it is just man pushing into the wilderness with subdivisions and highways that labels an animal population as "overpopulated". Overpopulation is a specieism term that the dominant species has applied to the lesser species. Come to think of it...I believe Hitler may have used that term in his reference to Jews and other "undesirables".
I have been involved in the BDSM lifestyle for... er... 25 years at least. (Gawd I am getting OLD) Contrary to popular opinion BDSM does NOT stand for Bondage/Domination, Sadism/Masochism but rather it stands for "Bondage & Domination, Domination & submission, Sadism & Masochism" It all gets piled into the "BDSM" label although to be more exact the label is "BD/Ds/SM". For the purpose of THIS discussion we can ignore the BD/Ds part of it and stick with the SM part.
Masochists are people who get orgasmic pleasure from having pain inflicted upon them. Sadists are people who get orgasmic pleasure from INFLICTING pain upon others. I understand the mindset of neither one because THAT part of the BDSM lifestyle is one that I have always avoided.
Now that we have THAT out of the way...
There are, probably more than even *I* think and I would put it at about 10%, a percentage of people who are BOTH sadistic and hunters. Those people undoubtedly DO take orgasmic, or near orgasmic, pleasure in killing animals. The vast majority of hunters though are neither sadistic nor people who take pleasure in the act of killing.
Unfortunately, if you ASK someone who takes sadistic pleasure in hunting you will not get a straight answer from them. You will simply be talked in circles and/or be accused of all sorts of nefarious things. It's been my experience that those who are particularly fanatical about hunting ("have to be out there in the woods by 4 in the morning every day", "have to get one opening day", push their children into hunting OR, worse yet, force them to go hunting, etc... ) are more likely to be the ones who take sadistic pleasure in the act of hunting/killing.
I am Indigenous. We were still hunting with bows and flint tipped arrows well into the latter part of the 19th century. IF I ever take up hunting I will be doing it with what is today referred to as a "re-curve" bow.
A re-curve is VASTLY different than a compound bow however BOTH take considerably more skill than a firearm and require that you get closer (in the case of the re-curve bow you must get MUCH closer) to your target than a gun does.
I have to wobble on the 10% of hunters though. I think it is higher. I often look after a 35 acre undeveloped property that is owned by my brother in law. In hunting season, there's seems no boundaries to trespassing (although I have politely informed them they are doing so) and I am careful to wear an orange vest. The number of booms I hear tell me there can't possibly be that many deer in a 35 acre lot - so are they missing a lot? Scary. Every now and again, I'll hear a "YAHOO" or a "YIPPEEE". These are not drunken louts. When I have spoken to them they have been polite and respectful despite ignoring my wishes that they leave the property. "YAHOO" or "YIPEEEE" when a kill is clearly made, indicate pleasure to me. Maybe it is where I live - or where the property is, I don't know.
Yes, I believe you when you speak of hunters who dance around the issue of why they are really hunting. And perhaps it is them who I am truly offended by. Again, I have learned a great deal - I tend to stand with New Buddha Fun, despite my occasional consumption of supermarket meat - but then, I'm a hypocrite.
And by the way - I find very little kinky.
I'm somewhat unclear, m-c, on the ethics of hooking a fish and dragging it through the water for fun. I doubt the fish enjoy it as much as you do. Furthermore, I am absolutely certain that not all of them survive the experience.
I have heard similar exclamations from men that I KNOW take NO pleasure in killing many many times and would be more inclined to view exclamations such as those as *relief* rather than "glee".
The question that came up was whether or not I am going to bring my recurve or my crossbow on my journey to hunt with. I paused and still do not know the answer to this. I will bring my recurve and my broad head arrows for protection...but whether or not I will use it on a fish or animal depends on how I feel when I am out there. I told her I will let the spirit of the earth descend over me and the answer will come as to whether I should take life or not. In the meantime I will rummage for berries and brush up on my wild edibles as well as pack food in.
I am going to scout out land for sale and I can tell you where I am going is very remote and very wild. Grizzlies are occasionally sighted, cougars, black bears for sure, brown bears for sure, wolves, coyotes. The country is high and it is vastly unpopulated. Land is plentiful and reasonable.
I am 38 years old in my life and realize it is time to go INTO THE WILD to become a man and open up my mind once again to direct experience of life. Every decision will be made by me and if I choose wisely...I live. If not...I die.
some of it was a really nice conversation though- I see-sawed while reading it, which is good and eye/heart opening
and to BBE: Too bad you didn't bother reading Madcelt's mental health posts a few days ago- how boring, right ;) You got your drums and I've got mine girlie :) they are not the same and thank god- think of the cacophony.
Likely cruely raised, stacked in pens, fed chemicals.
Or, like my husband, you can go and shoot a deer raised in the wild, a real life, likely had offspring and was fed no chemicals and not raised in cramped dirty pens.
We will never be vegan again, and I prefer my meat to come from its natural habitat.
Your post has some really absurd contradictions.
I am a little confused though - does your stance only apply to "bambi"? Or does that include wild hogs that destroy farms and ranches? Does it include wolves that can devastate an entire family as just last month they killed 120 sheep in Montana in a single attack? Or the coyotes who can kill one of our calves? Is it just deer that are off limits? Deer who can take over and eat the grass that is for our cattle?
You're okay with the government coming in to "cull" the overpopulated deer but not the land owner? My husband isn't a drunk or a "yahoo" and we are well aware of the government's limitations in culling anything. And they certainly don't deserve any more rights as to what I can and can't do on my own land. Nor do you.
Oh and @ affenfuge - meat in the grocery store which came from animals that were tortured their entire lives... Seriously? My cows, calves and bulls would beg to differ. In fact, right this very minute, they are out grazing - fat and happy.
Regarding why food kitchens do not accept deer: when hunters kill and eat venison, they do so knowing that the animal may be infected with CWD. Some states do check the deer and will notify the hunter, but this takes time - sometimes weeks. In the meanwhile, most hunters will have had the deer processed, but food pantries do not have the time or space for this. Not to mention, if you know the risk involved (or not) in eating an infected animal that's one thing. Being served the meat uninformed from a pantry is something many groups don't want to be responsible for.
Finally, in many states it is illegal to "bait" animals - provide feeders and then pick them off during hunting season. Others don't have an issue with this practisce.
For the record, I have BS and MS degrees in Animal Science, my PhD is in Veterinary Immunology. I have seen various slaughter practices first hand. My family also hunts and fishes and raises chickens for meat and eggs.
As far as "free-range" milk - good luck with that. Until you raise Bossy in your own backyard and make sure there's a bull available so she can have a calf every year (and what will happen to that calf?), this isn't going to happen.
My point is, it's not. You paint hunters as losers who are simply wasted and have no regard for life. It's self-righteous to presume to know why someone does something. I've never heard someone come back from a hunt and say, "That was really fun." Most hunters do it for the meat. You kill something, you eat it. Period. My guess is that you don't actually know many hunters. Yes, there are those you stereotypically describe, but they are the minority.
How is that you think the "government environmental depts." would cull these animals? Group them all together and give them a nice sedative? They would shoot them - probably from helicopters.
I have acknowledged some of my errors, and I know it is difficult to read through all these posts, but you will find the answer to some of your statements within them.
Anyway, to be honest at this point I feel I have hashed this out sufficiently. I do however appreciate you taking the time to post.