OCTOBER 31, 2011 8:27AM

What's the difference between the traveler & barbara joanne?

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Like the long-running popular comedy show, "I Love Lucy," starring Desi Arnaz and Lucille Ball, we've got our own version of that zany couple right here on Open Salon.

As many know, the traveler freely confirms that he goes by the monnicker, lew, and barbara is commonly known as babs, here.

 The show would, therefore, be called:  "I Love Lewsie." 

 

So the question remains, what's the difference between the two?

 

I can see  two notable differences;

a.  babs is deluded enough to say:  Well, Mark, I AM in fact a liberal. Barbara JoanneDECEMBER 12, 2010 09:08 AM and

b. babs has never, to my knowledge, threatened to delete comments, even those contrary to her agenda. 

 

This delusional couple have often teamed up to attack anyone who has the temerity to criticize israel or offer a defense of the Palestinians.

 

When Judy Mandelbaum got an EP for her superb  blog post:  "Forget the flotilla:  Gaza activists take to the air," the post garnered 118 comments, a large portion of which were lew and babs fighting the world.

 

http://open.salon.com/blog/judy_mandelbaum/2011/07/08/forget_the_flotilla_gaza_activists_take_to_the_air/comment 

 

 

 

babs issued the following refrain:  "I said, and you fail to understand it, that if the Palestinians accepted Israel and renounced terror, they'd have peace tomorrow," and trotted out some more of her eternal, infernal, larry elder and dennis prager quotations, BUT

 

when one of the most gentlemanly and scholarly members of our "community" confronted her with this official document printed in one of the most pro-israeli  sites on the Internet, "The Jewish Virtual Library" documenting exactly the demands she was seeking:

 

 "LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN:


September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:


The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.


The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.


The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.


The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators


In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat,"

 

she dismissively remarked:  " . . .  (And I don't accept Arafat's word on this either, but no matter.)"

 
 
 
Now we've got the second half of the lying tag team trying to deny reality, for the past two days, but this one threatens to delete comments to cover up his lies:
 
OCTOBER 30, 2011 2:11PM

Mahmood Abbas is right.

RATE: 3 Flag

"Arab Rejection of ’47 Partition Plan Was Error, Palestinian Leader Says"

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

"The Palestinian president said Friday that the Arab world had erred in rejecting the United Nations’ 1947 plan to partition Palestine into a Palestinian and a Jewish state. The Palestinian and Arab refusal set off widespread fighting, then Arab militaries attacked Israel after it declared independence the following year, a war the Arab states lost. “It was our mistake,” the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, above, said in a rare interview on Israeli television. “It was an Arab mistake as a whole.” Referring to Israel, he added, “But do they punish us for this mistake for 64 years?”

 What more is there to say except, in response to his last question, if at anytime during that 64 years, the Palestinian leaders had come to Isrealileaders (sic) and sad (sic) that they were sorry and they wanted to be friends and decent neighbors and to live together in peace, then the nascent country of Palestine would now be, alongside Israel, a garden spot of technology and culture in the mid-East instead of what it is.

It is the Palestinian leaders that have cheated their people.

And don't argue with me.  Argue with Mahmood Abbas, he said it."

 

 

 

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I see your point, but I think it is a bit oversimplified. Israel had no right to keep bringing more and more immigrants in and settling them on Arab lands, to keep taking more and more.
Kathy,
The question, in part, is where these immigrants have come from.
Here's the other half of the equation you don't hear about.

Since 1948, more Jews have been driven out of Muslim-majority countries than Muslims have left Israel - voluntarily and involuntarily combined. The vast majority have ended up in Israel.

The communities they left ranged in age from fairly old to seriously ancient. The oldest I know of was the Iraqi community, which dated from the Babylonian conquest and the destruction of the First Temple. That Jewish community existed for over 2 1/2 millenia, originating over a millenium before Mohammed was born. As of about a century ago, the population of Baghdad was between a third and half Jewish. The major Talmud originated in what is now Iraq. Prophets preached there and were buried there - Jonah preached in Nineveh, now called Mosul, and is buried in Iraq. 

You don't hear a word about repatriation or reparations to these Jewish populations, only to the Palestinian population. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about European Jews here, I'm talking about Middle Eastern Jews. I have only visited Israel once, in about 1980, but at the time, before the final waves of Soviet immigration, the majority of Israel's population was not European but Middle Eastern Jews, also known as Sephardim. That is when, incidentally, Israel turned Right and brought in Likud to replace Labor. 

The Palestinian population isn't all ancestrally Palestinian. Once Jews started showing up in a very sparsely populated region, Arabs from Syria started migrating there in search of employment. Now these populations are being treated like they've been there for thousands of years. 

That being said, I don't agree with the settlements either. However, Abbas' comment is disingenuous in more ways than what I've already listed.

From 1948 to 1967, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, the vast majority of whom ended up there by leaving what was becoming Israel at the request of neighboring Arab governments who wanted them out of the way during the war in 1948 and expected to return them when they threw the Jews into the sea (sorry about the length of this sentence), were forced to live in refugee camps. Why? Why didn't the surrounding Arab countries (or any others) integrate them? Israel had nothing to do with them for nineteen years. The Palestinians who remained in Israel became Israeli citizens. (Some were forced out by Jewish forces in 1948, most were not.) So, we can subtract 19 from 64 right away. 

What changed in 1967 was that the Egyptian government sealed off the mouth of the Gulf of Aqaba. At the top of this gulf is the Israeli city of Eilat, the only port Israel had that led to the Indian Ocean rather than the Mediterranean. The only other way Israeli shipping could get to the Indian Ocean was either around all of Africa or through the Suez Canal - fat chance of that happening. This was an act of war. Arab armies were also mobilizing at the time. So, Israel attacked pre-emptively. They had to; if they'd waited, their survival would have been in serious doubt. The distance from the Golan Heights (Israeli-Syrian border) to the Mediterranean is less than twenty miles - Israel could be divided quickly. Also understand that if the Arabs lose a war to Israel (which has happened a couple of times), the civilian populations of those countries are not physically threatened in the aftermath. If the victory goes the other way, the story is completely different. 

This war put the West Bank, Gaza, and the Sinai Peninsula in Israel's hands, along with the Palestinian populations in the camps there. Without Egypt's actions in 1967, none of this would have occurred. Egypt eventually decided on peace with Israel. Israel promptly gave them the Sinai Peninsula back which, incidentally, included an active oil well. Israel gives up land for peace, as long as the other party is serious about peace. Israel pulled out of Gaza unilaterally, arresting their own settlers who were refusing to leave. The political party that dominates Gaza, Hamas, still has as part of its charter the goal of the conquest of Israel. The only concessions they've offered in any negotiations have been truces, not a change of this fact. In other words, they want independence and territorial concessions in exchange for something they can renege on at the drop of a hat. If they'd ever said "We will let you exist if..." this would have been settled. 

I'm not saying Israel is blameless, but let's please stay realistic about what exactly the Israelis face, who owes what to whom, etc. 

Starting with the fact that most of the land Jews occupied in Palestine prior to independence was purchased, not conquered. And that Jewish populations were forcibly ejected from areas in Palestine, including the part of Jerusalem known for obvious reasons as the Jewish Quarter, by Arabs. Not only were the Palestinians not 100% native, the Jewish population was not 100% immigrant.
Kosh, no offense intended, but if Abbas is disingenuous, he still takes second place to this arrogant one (the prophet) who continually posts singular head in the sand hasbara (israeli propaganda).

This traveler says: "What more is there to say except, in response to his last question, if at anytime during that 64 years, the Palestinian leaders had come to Isrealileaders (sic) and sad (sic) that they were sorry and they wanted to be friends and decent neighbors and to live together in peace, then the nascent country of Palestine would now be, alongside Israel, a garden spot of technology and culture in the mid-East instead of what it is."

And don't tell me not to argue with you and go to Abbas, when it is YOU who either don't have a concern for accuracy in history or more likely just love to post these screeds that advance your agenda.

YOU are a liar, and this is far from the first time.

When I printed the following to his fellow hasbara comrade, barbara joanne, her reply was a weak, meek, I never trusted Arafat anyway.

This traveler is FACT, something that you always find repugnant in discussions on this subject:


"LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN:

September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: 

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,
Yasser Arafat

Chairman

The Palestine Liberation Organization"

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html
And as you might note, the source is a well-respected jewish organization.

What's your excuse for printing such a misleading screed?
I don't have any doubt that if Rabin hadn't been murdered, we'd have seen the culmination of the process within a few years of when this was written. Arafat wrote this because he trusted Rabin. He should have - Rabin was Israel's version of Nixon in China. It took someone with serious military credentials to handle this kind of negotiation because someone who didn't wouldn't have had enough credibility with the Israeli Right to force through what he needed done at home. The military Right he could handle; in the end, it was the religious Right that killed him. It's the only time I've ever seen a rabbinic Fatwa, which the Rabin assassination absolutely was. 

The other problem was the schism in the PLO because of how corrupt Fatah was while Arafat was alive, particularly late in his life. By the time Fatah got around to reforming, Hamas was already a factor, and Hamas certainly didn't agree with Arafat on this issue. (Though I'm not sure it can be verified, there was some conjecture that Arafat's worrying about his own safety had something to do with why he didn't go further with Ehud Barak's Camp David offer.) That's part of the problem at the moment - neither side of this conflict has a handle on their extremist wing. Right now, that's more of a problem on the Israeli side, because I think Netanyahu is far more sympathetic to Israeli extremists than Abbas is to Palestinian.
To comment a little further:

While the Arafat letter is certainly an effective answer to the "if at any time during the 64 years" comment, Traveler's statement that "It is the Palestinian leaders that have cheated their people" has more than a kernel of truth to it. I'm not going to argue that it is Only the Palestinian leaders that have cheated their people, but they've certainly been participants, starting with Arafat and continuing with the Hamas leadership. The current Israeli leadership has a hand in it, as have the Egyptian and Jordanian governments from 1948 to 1967, which refused to integrate refugees because they were more valuable as political pawns, and those regional governments who donated $25k to the families of suicide bombers, proving that Palestinians were worth more to them dead than alive. The Israelis haven't been angels in this but there are an awful lot of players involved here with filthy hands.
Kosh, I respect all the points You've made, but as You well know, I am a stickler when it comes to FACTS, and this guy has done this kind of thing repeatedly.

If he had left the first part of the blog post as is, I'd have chosen not to waste my time on this cretin, but when he says:

""What more is there to say except, in response to his last question, if at anytime during that 64 years, the Palestinian leaders had come to Isrealileaders (sic) and sad (sic) that they were sorry and they wanted to be friends and decent neighbors and to live together in peace, then the nascent country of Palestine would now be, alongside Israel, a garden spot of technology and culture in the mid-East instead of what it is," 

THAT statement, pure and simple, is a f*cking lie and I hate liars.
One last thing, Kosh, You of all people know full-well that I sometimes make mistakes, but I don't lie.

You have on at least one occasion caught me making a mistake in regards to an argument with another blogger. I acknowledged my mistake and apologized to You.

Let's see how this Neanderthal responds to his LIE.
Mark,

OS swallowed an extensive comment and I don't have the time to recreate it.

However, if you persist in name called, direct or indirect, I will delete those and all your comments.
you printed a lie - the evidence is clear and incontrovertible. Acknowledge your responsibility or edit it your post or I'll just reprint the whole discourse on my blog.
Mark,

I printed an opinion- mine- which
you have somehow mis-characterized as a lie. 

You replied with a quote of Yassar Arafat's letter promising to take an action on the PLO principles- which seems in retrospect to have had the same effect as Stalin's non-aggression pact with Hitler. The leader(s) of the Palestinians didn't make peace beyond that letter and Arafat was not able to bring his side to any agreement.

Abbas seems to see the history quite clearly, that many people would have been much better off if the Palestinians would have agreed to the terms 64 years ago. 

I agree.

You want to argue over some past issues that don't seem to matter now except to be able to ascribe blame - and on which we will never agree.

If you want to reprint all this, fine. Why would I care?
I caution you again - insults or defamatory statements and you and your words are gone from here.


"What more is there to say except, in response to his last question, if at anytime during that 64 years, the Palestinian leaders had come to Isrealileaders and sad that they were sorry and they wanted to be friends and decent neighbors and to live together in peace, then the nascent country of Palestine would now be, alongside Israel, a garden spot of technology and culture in the mid-East instead of what it is.

It is the Palestinian leaders that have cheated their people."
you say: ""What more is there to say except, in response to his last question, if at anytime during that 64 years, the Palestinian leaders had come to Isrealileaders (sic) and sad (sic) that they were sorry and they wanted to be friends and decent neighbors and to live together in peace, then the nascent country of Palestine would now be, alongside Israel, a garden spot of technology and culture in the mid-East instead of what it is."

The jewishvirtuallibrary says Arafat did just that.

Who's lying, you or the jewish virtual library?
A single letter from one of the Palestinian leaders - after 40 odd years of wars and terrorist activity - with no follow up or any change in behavior is certainly not evidence of a desire for peace or a wish to be a good neighbor.

Your are infatuated with the desire to assign blame only to the Israelis and a total unwillingness to see the Palestinians as having any blame is indicative of some serious problems in your reasoning capacity.

I won't respond to you again and, if you persist, will just delete any objectionable comments. I will happily leave anything you write that demonstrates your peculiar capacities.
 

 

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Whether these two are actually members of the Mossad, no-one will ever know, but clearly, both are revisionists, dissemblers, and liars.
Mark, I confess, I AM a member of Mossad. They haven't paid me in years, but I've decided to not be greedy.

I suspect Lew can defend himself.

I just posted on the LAUSD moron who got some attention for her Zionist Jew comments. (And no, I'm not associating your post with that in any way.) Hope some of you who read Mark's blog will drop by mine as well.

All the best Mark.
thanks for stopping by, babs.
Thanks unknown rater.
You're welcome. I was the rater. I figured, hey, you are free advertising for my disgusting blog. So, I rated you! Take care.
Mark comes out of retirement to attack the swami from a frank Zappa song, just to funny. On the serious side but I do believe that in light of what happened in Germany 70 years ago and for the reasons in Barbra JoAnne's most recent post a moratorium should be put on criticism of Israel for the time being. I know you do not like that idea and you are by far the best friend I have on OS but I must speak my mind on this. Since 9/11 mechanisms have been put in place to blame much of Americas problems on Israel and Zionism in America, due to the stupidity of Netanyahu and certain elements of the Mossad who have been breast fed on the milk of the CIA this has just been all to easy for the oligarchy. As this all develops you will see the Israeli government react more and more in panic. When a man struggles in quicksand he hastens his own demise and when he is drowning chances are he will take the people trying to help him down with him. Cooler heads need to prevail and figure out a way out of this for the 99.9% of the Jewish people that are, at heart, good and vitally necessary to western Civilization. The Communist party (right here we have Dr. Stuart Bramhall endorsing the writings of Carroll Quigley) is now teaming up with the likes of David Duke and going into the blame it on the Jew mode that has been prevalent in history from the plague to the Nazi’s. The mob mentality is Neanderthal to say the least, most anti Semites will tell you that Stalin was a Jew which they learned in Synagogue of Satan which in turn is nothing more than the writings of Carroll Quigley with the Veneer of objectivity striped off. Stalin attended seminary school and killed more Jews than Hitler but the mob never lets the facts get in the way when there is a good lynching afoot. I think we all need to take a step back and access this whole situation. Off the top I will say that Netanyahu besides being a stupid dupe is also a monster worthy of being hung right next to his pal and partner in crime Dubya. The Mossad is another case entirely, it boggles the mind that a people who have spent the last 70 years fighting for survival could allow themselves to be manipulated by the CIA, an organization founded at the oligarchies request by Nazi expatriates snuck out of Germany during Operation Paperclip. What in the Hell were they thinking? They need to clean up their own house and they need to come clean about 9/11 and they need to do it now! In our private communications you have asked me where I was going with my post. Where I am going is the real historical perspective on the founding and formation of America. Maybe when people understand this they will find it a little less easy to blame it all on the Jew. I have been saying that they is us for almost the last 2 years on OS to my right wing friends. Now I will prove it.
I'm going to quote from Traveler here:
"You replied with a quote of Yassar Arafat's letter promising to take an action on the PLO principles- which seems in retrospect to have had the same effect as Stalin's non-aggression pact with Hitler. The leader(s) of the Palestinians didn't make peace beyond that letter and Arafat was not able to bring his side to any agreement."

Here's my question:

Is your objection to what Traveler said in his post that the head of the PLO said what he claimed had never been said and it didn't make a substantive difference? If this letter was not acted upon by the PLO, is its existence enough? I wasn't aware of the letter, so I'm not going to claim that the PLO didn't act at all on it - I'd like your answer about that. You follow those communications more closely than I do.

So, you could be making one of two cases here:

1. That what Traveller claimed is literally false in that the letter exists.
2. That what Traveller claimed is substantively false in that the PLO made a serious attempt at concilliation and was rebuffed.

The second charge would mean something. The first charge would mean less; it would mean that Traveller overreached but that his basic point has not been disproved - that if the Palestinian leadership had taken a serious run at peace, they'd have peace and prosperity now.

This makes a big difference. If the second case can be made, you could change the nature of that debate overall.

Be very careful here. This is not the time to play advocate, it's the time to play impartial observer, because that's the best way to do this with any kind of credibility. If you run at this one too hard, you will come off as advocating the flip side of hasbara.

If you're really making the first point, you caught him getting a fact wrong, probably out of ignorance, but you haven't changed the nature of the debate. The reply is a simple one: "If this letter exists but recognition of Israel's right to exist is still an issue, what difference did the letter make?" So if Traveller in that case goes back to his post and inserts the word "seriously" after "the Palestinian leaders had come to Israeli leaders and said," does that fix the problem?
I make it a point not to go to your as you describe it and accurately so, disgusting blog anymore, but thanks for the rate, babs. hope your ploy brings you joy.
Sorry, RW, but I don't understand Your point. Could You, please explain in greater detail? Especially, what is the "the Synagogue of satan?"
Torrito, I know that You're joking with me now - it seems to me that there are few topics You don't find worthy of exploring and/or writing about.

Thanks for coming by. You, too, RW.
Jack:

I haven't a clue as to what's on babs's blog and You couldn't pay me enough to check it out.

As a good and trusted friend, I would expect nothing less than Your straight-forward opinion, whether I find it agreeable or disagreeable, and THAT is precisely what binds us closely.

Your points are reasonable and well made, however I did not initiate this imbroglio.

The authenticity of the document is not in doubt. Arafat, like him or not, staked his political future and his life, in fact, by offering the concessions he did.

I take issue with ANYONE who makes the outrageous statements of denial that this hideous pair have repeatedly made.

Silence IS complicity.

Thanks for taking the time and stopping by, my friend.
Kosh, I think the answers to Your legitimate questions lie partially in the original comments I made to the travelers post and my response to Jack.

These words, the travelers, with or without the word "seriously" added are a lie:

" What more is there to say except, in response to his last question, if at anytime during that 64 years, the Palestinian leaders had come to Isrealileaders (sic) and sad (sic) that they were sorry and they wanted to be friends and decent neighbors and to live together in peace, then the nascent country of Palestine would now be, alongside Israel,"

I lost 1/2 of my family in the fires of Europe. I would and do attack holocaust deniers as vociferously as I have attacked these two liars.

ALWAYS my pleasure to have You visit, Kosh
RW, Clearly I am a jew and have never attempted to hide that fact.

Furthermore, I am a jew who strongly feels that the term, "Never Again" is not the exclusive purview of the "chosen" peoples.

We are ALL chosen peoples.

Islam is an Abrahamic religion.

I support a two-state solution as defined by the Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

Thanks for coming back and clarifying Your comment, RW.
I just know that You're not proposing that the obamamaniac launch wars #9, 10 and 11???
Well, Mark, since I haven't written about Israel but once, I do believe, I don't know what your beef is, but your anger is palpable. Enjoy it!

I wish I could rate you twice. I get a kick out of your stuff.
babs, if you're happy (LOL), than I'm happy.