That’s the motto of a hugely successful on-line “premier discreet dating service” that boasts over 3 MILLION “like minded members”.
What do they mean by “discreet dating service”? I’ll tell you since I happen to know quite a bit about this site.
Why do I know so much? I’m blaming it on the newly disabled son I just spent a week helping. As I said in my last post, my 20-something year old man/boys are avid fans of Howard Stern. I’ve been listening to more than my fair share of Howard Stern this past week. I’m also blaming Howard Stern who, despite claims he has never been unfaithful to either one of his wives, is obsessed about this site for married people who are looking for an affair.
This site has a personal guarantee that you will have an affair. Look:
Join FREE & change your
life today. Guaranteed!
Okay, call me a prude, call me old-fashioned. And I’ll tell you right now. You won’t be seeing any future post with a retraction from me on how I feel about this site.
I simply will not or cannot normalize infidelity unless there is mutual consent between both adult parties.
I also will not demonize infidelity. Life is not black and white and neither are people. Infidelity does not necessarily end in divorce. Statistically, over 40% of married people report having at least one affair in the lifetime of their marriage.
As painful and earth shattering as affairs are, they can be a catalyst to a more honest and satisfying marriage. But this isn’t easy, and it takes time. Alot of it.
There are different types of affairs. There are sexual affairs,there are emotional affairs. There are affairs of the heart. There are passionate affairs and there are affairs out of boredom. There are Internet affairs. There are text message affairs. All affairs are hurtful and damaging.
Of some note is the sexism inherent in affairs. We often hear the term, “the other woman”, “the mistress”, “the home wrecker”. There don’t seem to be any names for the men.
I’d like to get rid of the stereotypical names right off the bad, for either gender. And I am insistent when I say that a third person cannot break up a good and healthy marriage.
It’s always been of interest to me how much people have demonized Angelina Jolie for being a home wrecker of the marriage of Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston. Really? I’m amazed at how many people were privy to the private life of Pitt and Aniston. I’m amazed at how many people paint Jennifer as the poor pitiful victimized wife and Angelina as the wanton evil husband stealer?
No one knows the intimate lives of couples, except for the couple themselves. And even they don’t agree on the details.
The only people that breakup a marriage are the people IN the marriage.
And another myth that needs to be dispelled: It takes 2 people to disintegrate a marriage. Not true. It only takes one.
The concept of marriage implies the concept of implicit trust. You can’t have intimacy without trust. You can’t have a good marriage without trust.
This Ashley Madison site (sounds like a pink bubble gum teen girl site) makes it sound appealing and oh so harmless to have an affair. Who will it hurt? Life is short. You deserve a little fun. No harm. No foul.
You know, if it really worked that way, who would I be to judge? But I am in the unique position to see the carnage and devastation of these “harmless romps” in my office and it’s not something that can be dismissed away with the casual wave of a hand.
And let’s get something else straight. Good people with integrity have affairs. The marriage has gone dull, one partner may have lost total interest in sex, spouses take each other for granted and the shine is gone from the once luminous exchanges. Kids are born, bills need to be paid, jobs are lost. Stress not only does a number on us physically, but emotionally as well.
And then along comes…fill inthe blank. That person who thinks you are just terrific…wonderful….exciting. Suddenly, the black and white vision turns into brilliant color. You feel alive again. Everything feels new and different. The harmless flirt here and there. Nothing wrong with that. But somewhere along the intoxicating way, the lines become blurred.
The flirt becomes a longer look, the glance becomes a stare. A little text here and there, an e-mail, a private e-mail account. No harm. No foul.
Mid-life comes along staring in your face. You’re going to die! Are you really only going to have sex with one person? Really? The comedian Louis CK says, “Who are we kidding? When you’re married, you don’t have sex with one woman. You have NO sex when you’re married. I’d love to have sex with one woman.” Louis has two small children.
For some, an anonymous one-night stand, like the ones that Ashley Madison guarantees, is enough. For some, they fall in love. For most, it really isn’t love. It’s infatuation, it’s lust. For a few, they truly fall in love, like for real. Those aren’t affairs. Those are new beginnings. People who fall in love for real do tell the truth, leave their spouses, and move on.
But for most, the affair doesn’t mean much to the person who is having them. When they are found out, after the “I’m so sorry” comes the “they mean nothing to me”.
What means nothing to the spouse that has been betrayed are those words.
Let me say that again, once the trust has been broken, words mean nothing. Behavior does, but not words.
The simple formula for rebuilding trust after an affair but not so simple to do is:
Time. Behavior. Time + Behavior = Trust
This requires patience on the part of both people. The partner who has been betrayed may or may not have a lot of questions. To the offending partner, these questions get tiresome and old. One wants to “move on”, “get over it”. Patience is required. Answering questions is required.
But at some point, it’s time to let the past be the past. Forgiveness is essential, but not forgetfulness. No one ever forgets. But the baggage of the past cannot continue to be lugged around, forever thrown into the face of the offending partner for years and years to come.
No easy task overcoming the devastation of an affair. But doable. Definitely doable.
The man who started the Ashley Madison site is making a killing. I hope he’s got a good chiropractor. How he sleeps at night is a mystery to me. He’s making a killing while marriages are being killed. And the other unspoken truth about affairs and its damages: the effects on the children. No one at Ashley Madison is talking about the children.
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Jesse Kavadlo
Mary Wagner
keri h
Frosty Funk
Wren Dancer
Liane Carter
Salon.com
Comments
Something like this site just shows that religion aside, America has lost its moral compass. Marriage isn't about religion, it's about making a promise to someone you love. I once had a friend tell me in Las Vegas that I could sleep with Jane Do if I wanted to and no one would ever tell my wife. "She will NEVER know." I looked at him and said the only words that came to mind. "But I will."
Rated
hah.
Do people who cheat just not think about their partners?
Thee have been many people over the years that I have been
attracted to, who were already in a relationship-some married,
some just committed. There is no way I could ever, no matter
how strong the desire, engage in an "affair" that was concealed
from the other partner. Calling it an "affair" somehow romanticizes
it I guess. The dishonesty would detract and also create bad
karma. I might fantasize about the person, but even then I
have to fantasize about somehow being stuck with them on a deserted island, then it's ok!
i've never heard of Ashley Madison but this site sounds like a REALLY bad idea. not from the standpoint of making money obviously, but really, they should change the name to "Adultery Online; Just Click Here To Cheat On Your Spouse." why not just go to a site advertising prostitution, or take Internet lessons on how to compromise your marriage? same dif as far as i can see.
While living in Europe, it seemed commonplace. I know families who were transferred to Asia and many did not survive "yellow fever." I watched many wives and children move back to the United States while their husbands stayed behind in Asia.
If a marriage can survive an affair, I think it can survive almost anything. Mine could not. I'm worth more than that.
Here's my philosophy: Married people are off-limits. Period. If you are married, that means YOU are off-limits. Period. Work it out with your spouse, or get divorced and THEN start dating again.
(note: I am not advocating divorce, but it is to me less dishonest than getting involved in something while still married.)
The amazing thing about this site, Ashley Madison, is how they cater to wherever they advertise and spin doctor. They run this one ad that's very sweet and a talking teddy bear claims to be the way to save your marriage and to do it professionally so you protect your children. Another ad uses to the money angle claming it's cheaper to use them then to have a divorce.
I'm not proud of this but I do not watch TV and get my news from Howard Stern every day.
And it’s a valuable thing you provide here. A full spectrum look into the consequences of all types of fidelity and infidelity. Bravo.
Like so many things about marriage -- and life in general -- the root cause is unrealistic expectations. The notion of fifty years of wedded bliss may sell cakes and wedding dresses, but it certainly sets everyone -- and I do mean everyone -- up for failure.
That some people are strong enough and wise enough to survive failure and learn from it is what makes marriage a venerable and venerated institution. That learning has helped me survive 25 years in, as far as I'm aware, a monogamous relationship.
It probably will change a lot of lives, but not necessarily in a good way...
And if something on the website does guarantee that you'll have an affair...does that make the guy who owns/runs the site a pimp? If these people are paying money for a guaranteed affair, could they be arrested for prostitution?
Interesting. I hope that guy really is making a fortune. He's going to need it to hire a really, really expensive attorney when someone sues the crap out of him and/or he's arrested for facilitating sex for hire.
Me, I'm heading towards 25 years this year and I never stepped out of line once in that time. May have been tempted a time or two, but I love my wife and that means more to me than any potential hook-up. I trust as well that she not only feels the same way but has also stayed the course. I wonder what would happen if you signed up with that site but didn't have an affair - could you sue them?
Thumbed. Somehow, I missed your last post. Off to read it now while I have a few minutes more.... :-D
Rated!!
This should get a laugh out of her.
Type post. Post post. Later bitches! That's Mary...
BTW, does FAIL2FOOS count as an affair? ; )
Don't Tell My Wife I Rated
rated, Mary
This site sounds so very sad to me. It asks "bored with life", "have an affair". If you were bored with life you could take a trip, or start a hobby or change careers.........but to encourage people to have an affair is pathetic. As my mother used to say "A bored person is just a boring person". Good post.
.....Non-consensual affairs hurt! They just do...a few dozen people saying that wouldn't do it and that is sucks isn't really self righteous, is it?
"Does Ashley Madison encourage infidelity?
No, Ashley Madison does not encourage anyone to stray. In fact, if you are having difficulty with your relationship, you should seek counseling."
Right. I'm supposed to believe that a website devoted to assisting people in extramarital affairs, unfaithfulness and adultery doesn't encourage infidelity? Isn't that the very definition of infidelity?
Disgusting.
Now you've shattered all my illusions.
The thing that bothers me the most is that these people are seeking it out. It’s not an accident, it’s not one-thing-led-to-another – they went looking for it.
If disapproving of infidelity makes me old fashioned, well, I guess I’m old fashioned.
The website is morally bankrupt, like so many of our "values" these days.
I was single for a long time and never once had an affair, or even a one-night stand with a married man, or a man involved in a serious relationship. I would always say: get divorced, and once you're separated, wait six months and then call me. No one ever did.
I would never cheat on my husband. I wouldn't want to hurt him like that and I would never be able to live with myself. Others may be different, but I know myself.
The know only they were somehow damaged--they were not properly mothered or fathered themselves--or somehow their capacity for trust was never nurtured, and they spend their lives looking for it in others--and the wrong places.
When it is suggested to them, you can tell who the most likely candidates are by how quickly and easily they become defensive. Nobody is going to "psychoanalyse" them but themselves--hence they leave a trail of devastation and pain throughout the lives of those they come in contact with and "love" with their crooked hearts.
It's hard not to be judgemental because everyone today is so easily implicated. It's "ok" to have affairs, and never look back--and then to see it in our children, their poor choices, and the pain that is the legacy they pass on as well.
This is the dialogue to me of "owning" our lives, instead of having them "owned" by our own unconsciousness, and willingness to face our demons rather than find someone we can act them out with. I have posted about this a number of times in different ways--and commend you Mary for taking a stand--though I am sure in your practice you are more forgiving--you are one, however, who has clearly seen and possibly even experienced the carnage, and that makes you wise.
(OK, just kidding.)
I was one who fell in love, left the spouse, and started over. Alas.
Take the blinders off for a few moments to make sure you know which type you're marrying.
Whether it's a conservative or a liberal doing it, it's distasteful to see someone condemning someone else's private behavior.
A successful marriage (whatever the arrangement) is something to which to aspire. However, no matter how you spin it, monogamy among mammals is entirely unnatural.
"And I found out a long time ago
"what a woman can do to your soul
"Ah, but she can't take you any way
"You don't already know how to go."
To me, when choice is involved, I could care less what someone else is spewing out what I should do. And I alone am responsible for any destruction that follows. I believe these two sins are equal: to lie and to choose to believe lies.
Unless you are perfect, everybody tempts everybody to sin in some way. The fact someone can make a business out of that is a commentary on who we are, meaning a large percentage of marriages are merely affairs disguised as marriages and are not to be honored.
Yeah, it always sucks to find out you've been lying to yourself. Hurts like hell. It's called growing up - and is not to be equated with 12 year-olds inducted into the army at gunpoint (as happens on a daily basis on this planet). Now THAT is what I call devestation. I just don't feel outrage when there's a choice.
Besides, I always like her cakes and other stuff.........
Obviously, you can go on Craig's list for this exact same thing, so no mystery there. I am glad you are a "prude" over this, Mare! This sort of thing does result in a devastation of lives, families and unimaginable pain. Easy money, easy credit, easy way out...easy sex.....all things easy, havent't stood us as individuals or as a country so well. Bottom line - I like your stand on this post.
"The only people that breakup a marriage are the people IN the marriage." He also said that in the case of men, some men were without sex in their marriage for incredibly long stretches of time before they either had affairs or got divorced. This was confirmed in meetings with both partners. In some cases she was having affairs and not telling him, in others she did not want to have sex with him.
"In the cases of women having affairs, it was more about romance than sex, or so they said. The men made no bones about if there is no sex at home, they sought it else where after trying and not succeeding. A small percentage of men admitted they were simply polygamous and would cheat on a saint. About the same % of women admitted to the same thing." His take was the same as MaryTKelly's on the judgmental silliness.
Reminds me of the Pina Colada song.
All the Ashley Madison guy is doing is monetizing the thing people do all the time. Craigslist, Match, and Adult Friend Finder are three that are prominent online ways to find fling-minded people.
It isn't that America has lost it's moral compass. What would that be? Puritanical values?
It's that this stuff has been happening for centuries and for a lot of the world sexuality is not confined to a singular life partner.
I do agree though that in America the default setting is monogamy and anything else should be openly agreed upon.
All this website does is bring another facet of life to light in a very public way. Which is good because then people can confront it, talk about it openly, and make their minds up to be one way or the other after open and healthy discussion. Unless you're the person wanting to have an affair that is :-)
You give them money - they guarantee sex? Isn't that illegal in 49 states????
Terms like, “the other woman”, “the mistress”, or “the home wrecker” are used by women almost exclusively. Except for maybe the older set who still think an affair is martinis and nylons and Cary Grant, I don't know ANY men that use these terms. But I do know a lot of women that do.
I doubt if the website "Ashley Madison" is really going to make someone have an affair that isn't already thinking of doing it already.
I think a guy that says, "I'm married 25 years and I never strayed" may have never had an opportunity. They don't count as someone who hasn't cheated. I think that not every guy that says they had an "opportunity" really did have one. They don't count. Terribly unattractive people don't count.
I always liked being with artists and creative people because I was always under the impression they were more sympathetic to the weaknesses of mankind. For the most part, I was right but sometimes I find they are just as judgmental.
Most people that say the words "Howard Stern" and make a face like they just smelled dog shit on their shoes, don't listen to him.
I know a lot of married men that are living lives of quiet desperation and I feel so sorry for them. The longer I know them, the weaker their spirit gets. What do they do?
A lot more people are aware of Ashley Madison now. I wonder how much an advertisement on Open Salon should go for?
Ugh.
Plus, since I am terribly unattractive, I feel I have some expertise on the subject.
Chris Rock makes a very good point (we have the same tastes). No matter what one looks like, you don't have to accept that lunch offer to meet that ex who found you on Facebook or allow yourself whatever other opportunities you know is a recipe for disaster. Everyone gets them and anyone can cheat. It's up to a spouse to eliminate opportunities. I don't have to help go my neighbor shop a for bathing suit (real examples) and I only go shopping after I eat and I'm not starving.
I exclude compulsive liars and sexually compulsive deviants with this statement: but I've been married for 26 years, nearly, and I'm willing to work through almost anything with my husband at this point. Neither one of us are perfect and we've gone through some really hard (and great) times. I don't think anything has happened but I wouldn't kick him out of the house or our relationship if something had happened.
I don't believe it's one person that creates an affair, but two. Really, I believe that.
My point about this website is: So what? I don't think it *causes* anything. People find their own avenues to connect.
However, the Buddhist part of me says that I wouldn't be the owner of this website. But, as someone on the outside looking 'in' at affairs, I don't really fault them.
denese
I was of course intrigued by the title and so I came over and read this earlier today and then put it away. Came back and started reading the comments and I began to feel that maybe I had misread your post, so I read it again. Looks to me as if you don’t much like the Ashley Madison Agency. Also looks like almost half of Americans admit to having an affair, and that you see a lot of damage from affairs in your clients, and that you basically think that nobody has an affair unless they want to, and that the damage can be repaired over time if both parties want it. I thought you made it clear that you were not demonizing nor “casting stones.”
I’ll probably get into trouble here, but where did all these boy scouts and girl scouts come from? And I’m just curious as to where did you got a picture labeled “woman cheating?” I have this reverse O’Henry type story in my head where she calls the service, and her “affair date” turns out to be the guy she’s cheating on. I saw in your comments that you have some things to say. I am looking forward to reading them.
What's sad is that often people who have not found a way or a person with whom to express themselves fall into despair and start to destroy themselves physically with food, or drink, or whatever.
The shortfall of taking a moralistic position toward affairs is for those who are locked into "traps" of various kinds and cannot get out with their spouse with whom they are caught in a co-dependent cycle. They may love the person deeply, but are unable to transform it into its physical form, or lust after someone, or carry a romantic projection, but find it impossible for one reason or another to turn that into a committment--and live in desperation.
I'm sure Mary is aware of this and has seen it as well. The problem is often in the "carry over." They may learn about themselves physically in their affairs, since they are only matters of lust, but bringing what they learn to awaken their life's partner is another matter. This is more to the point of the reality so many live, and deny.
We live in the dark ages in this country due to its puritan past. We mistake love and lust constantly. People live their entire lives suffering without knowing the difference--and sometimes ignorance is bliss. The "darkess around us is deep," said the poet. It is in every aspect, it is in every day, it is in us.
You are my hero.
But not liking the site isn't the same thing as moralizing against affairs, or the people who have them. In an ideal world, we wouldn't betray the trust of our loved ones...but in an ideal world, we wouldn't be presented with situations that make it seem worth the risk. It doesn't always take both people in the marriage to create fertile ground for an affair - some people are just incorrigibly polyamorous but get married anyway, planning to have their cake and eat it too.
But more frequently, people find themselves in a marriage with decreasing intimacy, a chasm where there used to be understanding, incompatible sexual drives, crushing financial and health burdens that cripple them emotionally or psychologically....and one of them turns to an affair.
As so many have said here, no one really knows the inside of a marriage, or human hearts. Speculating why people have an affair is an impossible task. I won't judge. it's nice to think we are all able to do the right thing by our spouses, at all times, regardless...but it's not realistic, and saying that is in no way justifying bad behavior, it's simply acknowledging that the motivations for behavior are more complex than categories of 'good' and 'bad'.
But back to the site. It is pretty irrefutable that affairs usually cause tremendous damage, regardless of the 'why' behind them. Even among those who are successful at keeping their affairs secret, there can be damage - guilt, a loss of true intimacy with the spouse and kids, etc. Given this, I think the site is not a good thing. It enables destructive behaviors - lying, deceit. I won't judge the people who have affairs for the reasons I outlined - but that doesn't mean a site that makes it easy to have them is OK.
Kind of Blue, why are you guys always already spoken for? I have to agree with you about the "open lifestyle". I can't even imagine being open minded enough for an open relationship. I just don't get it.??????
Ashley Madison turns my stomach, but not because anything related to sex. I've never had a monogamous relationship or wanted one, and think other peoples' relationships are none of my business (until they start holding them up as examples I should follow, in which case I feel invited to count the holes in the lace).
Ashley Madison is reprehensible not because it doesn't support traditional ideas of hetero marriage, but because it's a parasitic business exploiting a closet. It's the hetero equivalent of mafia-run gay bars in the dark ages, where the price of free assembly was a foul environment, bad service, and paying 500% of the norm for a drink. It's a spiritual shit-hole that won't ever grow any tomatoes.
It's even written in the language of shame: discreet, affair, privacy, anonymous, winks, infidelity, cheat, secret. It's got that pathetic righteousness of the self-designated victim: neglected, people like you, why we cheat, take this quiz. It says, "Come on in, it's great here in the dark. Don't know yourself. Don't know your partner. Don't let anyone know you. Close your eyes and unbutton your pants. Live a lie."
"Secret Sex in the Suburbs" Will someone tell me how to vomit phonetically? (Will someone else please tell me no one is actually aroused by the word "suburbs?")
Unfortunately, Ashley Madison strikes me as symptom, not disease. They aren't new or unique, and didn't create the closet they'll profit from. Sadly, people who accept an institution without question get the obvious: life in an institution, complete with secret tunnels under the walls.
The Chinese have a saying about men (or women I guess too) who have affairs or maintain a mistress and it's that it's impossible to stand on two boats.
I have often thought about the logistics involved in carrying out an affair. Where do you do it so that there is no chance of you or your car being recognized? How do you explain the lost time as someone in your circle always knows "where" you are supposed to be and knows when you are not "there". When and how do you communicate so that it can't be found out? How do you pay for things and cover it up?
All this seems like a lot to deal with. When I was 24 I had three relationships with three women at the same time. All of them were "casual" but none of them knew about the others. At first it was exhilarating but it quickly turned to exhausting and stressful.
In middle age I just think it's hard enough to deal with one person and satisfy them much less two.
Still, I think monogamy is a construct of modern religions. I think that the world needs to be more open and sexually liberated. Then subjects like this wouldn't cause such issues. As long as we cling to the idea that sex and love are hopelessly intertwined then we will continue to conduct ourselves as if it's a shameful thing.
The only thing shameful is that we can't discuss it. It would be a better world if polyamory were the default and couples would then make a conscious commitment to monogamy. As it stands now monogamy is just "understood" between couples and it shouldn't be.
I can love someone deeply and not be turned on by them sexually. Sex is a biological act that releases endorphins. If feels good. It's meant to feel good so that we will do it more and procreate. Not that we need more procreation happening right now.....
But the point is in my opinion that marriage is already too tied to sex. Sure if you have an unspoken compact to be monogamous and you break it then you have broken a vow built on trust. But that applies to all other aspects of a relationship as well. Other unspoken pacts are that you won't steal from each other, you won't abuse each other, etc.... and those are broken just as much or more than the unspoken agreement not to sleep with anyone else.
So take sex off the table. Literally. Respect each other's right to get physical stimulation in places beyond each other's company. To me that would make any vow to stay monogamous a real choice and much stronger.
They described it as something, a secret, that they would have to keep from the other in their life, forever. I don't do the moment justice but the thought struck me. Yes, the person that you have vowed to share everything with will not share in that part of your life.
Betrayal? Yes.
I like Cris Rock's sense of things. Hell, if Jeniffer Aniston shook her body in my face I'd be severely tempted to bite, and probably would just for the experience but alas I'm not in her crowd and never will be (her loss) so I don't have to worry. (That sounds awful but I honestly doubt that she would be worth the trouble. I've got enough trouble in my life)
I've been asked by the wife if I've ever had opportunity. I don't think so but I'm so blinded, like the old draft horse with blinders on, that I probably have and didn't realize it.
If we ever ended, I'd have a hard time going back 'on the market'.
What I fear is that this bad economy will keep people together that shouldn't be because they can't afford to leave. Domestic violence is a seamy side of society and a reality show sideshow but it effects real people and people get married for many different reasons. Some rather juvenile. (Like the practicing 'serial monogamist' catholic who can't bare the idea of 'sex outside of marriage' so she marries guys for sex and divorces them and moves on to the next. I think she's on husband 8)
I went to a marriage counselour many years ago who had an affair and ruined his first marriage. Speaking from experience sounds so powerful... His advice: Jump first (from the marriage) and then assess where you are rather than jump into a different bed first and then have to deal with the busted shards of your marriage. An affair is like a sledgehammer to the relationship. The damage is intense. The ultimate form of domestic violence in most cases. (Although he did have a client whose wife just shrugged when she found out. That cretin was more angry that she didn't react which was why he did it I suppose)
Rambling, but whatever...
It's like the hype for a new version of Windows. They HAVE to tell you it's the most fantastic thing in the world to get you to change, then once you do, the bugs are there and sometimes the same ones!
Affairs aren't a joke...
But in order to actually contact them, you have to 'upgrade' to the next silver gold or platinum level. You'll probably get some contacts from 'standard' members who look like your profile, but of course they're just 'standard' members so they can't actually e-mail you.
So, being the gentleman, you sign up for silver or gold for a month or six months or a year (what is it now? $200 a year or something?) And you can send e-mail to these poor lonely women who are just dying to meet someone they can cuddle with. If you're lucky, one of them might actually be a woman who is looking for a date, and you might be able to hook up with someone you're somewhat compatable with.
On the other hand, Ashley has people who work for them who they call something like 'quality monitors'. They tell you about them up front, and they even let you know (in the fine print) that these people will contact you and pretend to be something they aren't. These people (maybe they really are women) are commissioned agents whose job is to get you to use charged services or upgrade your membership. They are NOT hookers, they are not sincerely interested in meeting you - they're the electronic version of what we used to call 'B-girls'. If your familiar with Japan, you may know the concept of a 'snack', where the girls will drink with you and nothing else.
So is Ashley a dating site? A place where you should go to meet someone for an affair? Nope - it's a ripoff. Those girls (for the most part) are there to lure you on until you have no money left. Some people may occasionally score with someone they find there, but that's not why Ashley is in business.
If you want to meet someone, go to church or an AA meeting on Saturday night. There's more women there than you can count, and they're almost all looking for friends. It may take a while, but you'll hook up.
It can't only be based on that--for many reasons--among them the fact that the sex drive itself is easily de-railed, and unquestionably lessens with age in each sex. That is a question everyones faces, and as the generation ages needs to be addressed by its "advisers."
Then there is also the question of "consummation" when real pathology is involved--the most unavoidable, and difficult to answer.
(sometimes it is sport fucking, and sometimes it is not)
Right now, of course, it's all the usual shit: take this drug or that drug, or yeah, find somebody new to fuck, and spice things up that way--but the real issue I suspect for many is elsewhere. We'd rather watch the game, or visit the grand kids--the days of passion are over and "Redbook" can supply no answer. We miss them more than we can admit.
What I find undesirable in the website is that it is pre-meditated. It takes out the innocence and romance that means our hearts are somehow connected to those to whom we give our bodies. I have never forgotten any of my lovers for that reason, and never shall.
I feel I owe them a debt for their courage in taking a risk with me. If I found them on-line, it feels more like it would have been prostitution.
I don't think I'm naive about how the world works. Pastors, like therapists, hear the full range of reasons and rationalizations, but what I hear most often is, "I wasn't thinking. I didn't realize how this would all end up."
I believe marriage generally can be a fairly straightforward arrangement: Follow the agreement you made, negotiate a new agreement, or get out.
This is so sad. Thanks for sharing. Excuse me while I check out the cookies on my computer... (just kidding)
Please hear me, I'm not condoning affairs. I'm just reiterating that nothing is completely black and white.
http://open.salon.com/blog/silkstone/2008/11/12/sex_lies_and_cell_phones
"My uncle is a priest. He never of course mentions names, but his experiences reflect the studies that claim 73% of males and 73% of females have had at least one affair."
For once, I'm happy to say that I'm not holding up my end, I'm happy to be one of the 27%. I somehow think I sleep better because of it.
if the professor is right, and i suspect that he's pretty close, 73% of males and 73% of females have had at least one affair.
someone must be doing it. must be all them right wingers what never comes here...
Want to have sex with someone else but you're in a committed relationship? NO. Break up first so you can do it on the up and up. Have kids and feel you can't break up because you should be with your family? Yes, THEY are the priority and not you. If divorce isn't in the best interests of the family - buck up and keep your word. Period.
They always find out.
I did when mine cheated on me. It's been a long hard battle to fix the relationship. I couldn't agree more. Behavior says more then words.
If does anything that reminds me of his actions back then, it sets me off and I just get flags and think somethings up again. It's a very long hard road to come back from and usually the person that cheated wants to sweep it all under the rug and act like it never happened.
The DH and I were appalled, too.
As for the site and OSSheepdog's question, my son has learned more about the Ashley Madison site because he heard the owner (a male) being interviewed). I could care less if the owner was a male or a woman, so no diffference there. The site to me is a discouraging yes SYMPTOM of a culture that one could argue is rather diseased when it comes to sexuality.
Women are as capable as men of being sexist. Just as we are all capable and guilty of own individual prejudices.
Back to my main impetus for the post. The site, quite frankly was a good lure to bring you all in here to talk about infidelity in marriage and its consequences. I also meant to include that of course, once someone has been lied to and betrayed, they have every right to leave the marriage, as MiddleAgedBlogger so aptly pointed out. My first question to a couple who presents this issue is to ask the one betrayed if they want in or out. They want out, they want. They want in, let the long work begin.
Someone asked why I condone any of the "unfaithful". I think Pete's point may be more statistically correct and Sheldon makes a good point of basically saying, "Come on, you know there are some people on OS who have strayed." I don't condone the behaviors of infidelity, but I don't condemn anyone. Many people act out of pain and deep woundedness. I know of many spouses where one loses interest in sex and to hell with the needs of their spouse. Books have been written about it.
I am not "threatened" by the site. Silliness! I am deeply discouraged by it. We are all part of different systems, each system interconnected to the other. There is a reason a site like this exists. It is well worth, from a sociological and anthropological angle to examine it. Each system contains its own responsibilities (i.e. individual, marital, family, social, financial, etc.) Two wrongs don't make a right.
The most common "excuse" those who have gone outside the marriage use is, "It just happened. I didn't plan it." This site eliminates that excuse. You couldn't find anything more premediated.
Life is not black and white. And it would be wonderful if everything was all neat and clean and tidy. Yes, it would be wonderful if people who were unhappy either dealt with it within their marriages, or divorce in order to move on. But life isn't that neat and clean. There are many complications...children, finances. Many are living desperately quiet lives looking for short term solutions that may feel good at the time, but in the long run don't satisfy the thirst of a hungry heart.
The reality is that infidelity, divorce are here to stay. There are many who are arguing the death of "till death to us part". We are aging longer, the culture is shifting.
I see this site as a symptom, others may see it as a shift. I hope it is not the later.
But that commercial on the teevee said that if I can get my doctor to prescribe that little pill, my life would be better. If I get new boobs and a tummy tuck my life will be better. If I meet someone on this website, my life will change because I'll 'find love' that will 'blow me away', the 'love of a lifetime' and I'll be happier and it will never rain and all will be fantastic...
BAH! Life's a bitch. You find people that can put up with most of the weird shit that you do, and your 'sense of humour' and who like the way you smell. People that think that a relationship is all 'land of milk and honey' get a hell of a shock when they realize that the person of their dreams snores, talks in their sleep, farts, watches 'Revenge of the Nerds' and laughs like a cow, leaves the seat up, can burp the entire alphabet (often), has wicked morning breath, likes Bluegrass Zydeco fusion hard rock (?) and some secret fetish that makes you puke.
Then what? Welcome to real life...
My theory is that most of the women (and men) fit into the 'Can't Be Trusted With Farm Animals or Dead Human Beings' group. They are trolling on that site for a reason. They either look like a cross between your great-grandmother, Rush Limbaugh and a mongoose or have all of the personality of a Tasmanian devil in heat.
Whatever...
Not that I'm defending cheating, per say, but for someone in a 'loveless' marriage, having an out or an experience could make them decide to fly solo or at least jump from the nest they are in currently or maybe even take the courage to change things for the better.
But too often, I fear, the 'cheating' is actually too cause pain. It's done out of malice and IS all about striking back and humiliating the other member of the couple. It's like relationship rape, with another person... It's meant to be a sledgehammer on the family crystal. Sometimes it's out of cowardice too. They really want the relationship to be over but can't stand up and say it to their partner's face so they get 'caught', they get 'found out'...
And sometimes, it's just stupidity.
Recently I was 'caught' out at dinner with the secretary of one of our clients. The setting couldn't have been worse for looking like an affair. Small restaurant in the neighboring town. Younger woman, dressed in sweatpants and a t-shirt. Sitting in an out of the way place. Backs towards the door. It looked bad. Except that her teenage son was there (we were talking about Macintosh computers and programming) and she had asked me to meet her son there and she came along. But I was 'caught'. A friend of my wife's (who was out of town for a week) and her husband and two kids came in to that very restaurant and I guess I didn't handle it too well. The secretary said 'What's the matter, you're turning red'. I was embarrassed for how it did look. I wanted to blend into the wallpaper, disappear. It looked bad...
Yes, they told my wife. I actually told her first though. They still believe that it was a meeting after a sexual encounter. I laugh about it, when not around my wife. I did joke to her that I'd have to pick a farther away town to meet in because she knows so many people. She didn't laugh... I don't blame her... Oh, and to top it off, they told everyone that we know about 'catching' me... Yep...
I wouldn't want to be one of these 'family values' politicians having to tell my wife of 'x' years that it WAS me caught in the call girl sting... Another human being doesn't need that. Imagine Larry Craig's wife.
But anyway. Those 'family values'...
And this is great too, Mary. I like the way you lay all the cards out on the table face up. Transparency is a key to happiness in human relations, I believe. But it's not a belief that appears to be shared by many people and certainly not by the culture we live in or by the institutions we have built to organize and maintain the culture.
Yet people wonder why there's so much unhappiness in this Life.
Oh well.
Relationships are really property arrangements insuring exclusive control over the opposite gender.
I'm generally as laid back as one can be concerning creative sexual arrangements within marriage but even I am uncomfortable with affairs involving physical sexual contact without the spouse's awareness.
Your reaction over ALL affairs is emotionally-charged silliness.
Every time you pick up a romance novel or watch a chick film with you favorite hunk in it you could be accused of affair-like activity if your mind wanders. Which is exactly why many fundamentalist Christian women will not read Harlequin.
There needs to be a reasonable level of allowance within marriage to enjoy our individuality. Marriage isn't a cage.