(Supporters of the repeal of gay marriage celebrate their "victory")
I woke up this morning to unexpected news. Maine had gone mad and had followed in the crazy footsteps of California. Seriously? Please tell me this didn’t happen…again!
Who are these people that are taking away the rights of gay couples to marry? How horrible and close-minded can they be? And then I remembered. Ah, yes, that’s right. I was one of them.
It was an ordinary day. I was six months pregnant with my fourth child. My life was predictable…I made sure it was predictable. I was a full-time mother and devoted Christian. Other than a painting I had recently bought on impulse, a painting with bold bright colors that had unexpectedly begun to open up my closed heart, everything was the same.
I received a grim phone call from one of my sisters. My father, a robust 63-year old man, full of life and optimism, had just been diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor. His prognosis was more than dismal, as I learned he might not survive the surgery scheduled for the next morning.
With heart pounding and stomach reeling, I quickly packed and left my husband and young children behind to fly to San Francisco. I arrived on a gray day where the fog spilled over the hills like desperate fingers searching for food. I quickly went to the hospital with the gray walls and a gray waiting room where two young gray-faced men sat anxiously waiting.
Upon my arrival, I found that my father was critical but alive and recovering from a not-so-successful surgery. The cancerous tumor had spread into unreachable parts of his brain and there was no good news to be had.
As I stood in his room searching for the right words to say, the air was filled with agonizing screams of pain from a patient in the room next door. The screams were horrific, relentless and excruciating to hear. When a nurse walked in, I asked, “What is going on with that patient? Why can’t you do something, give him something, help him, anything?”
The nurse, tired and spent, quietly explained that he was in the end stages of AIDS, a painful and hideous way to die where there were no pain killers strong enough to alleviate his agony and suffering. She added that the young man had no family present as they had abandoned him and that the two young men, the ones with the gray faces I had seen earlier in the waiting room, were the only ones keeping somber vigil.
(An unidentified AIDS patient)
As I stood there baffled that anyone could abandon their dying child, I thought of the bright smiling face of Anita Bryant, a spokesperson for Florida orange juice. The former Miss America had successfully campaigned several years before to take away the rights of homosexuals in Dade County. I should have felt a kinship with her, a fellow Christian who, like me, was devoting herself to God and family.
(I feel sadness and shame that I was so much like her)
But suddenly, in a decidedly un-Christ-like manner, I wanted to take a crate of Florida oranges and pummel her to a pulp!
I was stunned. I felt like someone had stepped on my chest. My heart was pounding. As my unborn baby moved inside me, I felt paralyzed. How could this be? Why couldn’t they help this young man? Why couldn’t they give him something, anything to stop the terrible pain?
Suddenly, the screaming stopped and shortly afterwards the man was rolled past my father’s room on a gurney. He was young, only in his 30’s. He looked like my husband and he looked like my brothers. There was no family for him there. For them, his disease was repugnant. He was a homosexual. He was an outcast, an abomination. They had abandoned him. His only visitors were the two young men in the waiting room, the men with the gray and anxious faces.
Images of the church and bible studies I attended decrying the sins of homosexuality raced through my mind. Sermons and loud voices declaring to love the sinner and hate the sin shouted in my head.
The screaming had stopped but the echoes of torment hadn’t. Who deserved this type of pain? Who deserved this type of abandonment at the end of their lives? Who had sinned so terribly that they deserved this type of judgment and condemnation?
I was shaken to my core. Everything I believed in began to disintegrate in the wake of the screaming. I walked out to the waiting room. The two young men were gone and I knew that I would never forget them and their terminally ill friend.
Five days later, I went home. I bought books. I read and read. I questioned. I doubted. I looked at myself, at my own harshness, my own assumptions.
I got educated.
I sat my husband and children down and told them we would no longer be going to church. I told them we couldn’t go to the place that condemned people for being the beautiful beings that God had purposefully made them to be. I told them that they were young and that they might be "one of them". I told them that we were all made in the image and grace of God.
My young and innocent children wisely nodded their heads and then jumped and down around the room, as if they had received early Christmas presents.
I left the church and I left the bible studies. I lost many friends. I was judged and I was condemned.
But the screaming in my head stopped. A spaciousness and a clarity blossomed forth…like the bright bold colors in the painting. And for the first time in a long time, I felt free.
Today, I think of the gay men who may be dying alone in Maine and California. I think of the gay couples who had a right stripped away from them by voters ignorant and unknowing, like I had been. I think of the young gay adolescents who may take their own lives today, feeling only despair and shame at a state and a country who stubbornly refuses to acknowledge who they are…people just like them.
Shame on the voters in Maine, in California, and the many other states whose prejudice and fear continue to paralyze them from being open and curious about those who are just a tiny bit different from them.
In reality, the differences are so miniscule, they cannot be seen by the wise and open eyes of compassion.
*Note: This post is part of a post I wrote many months ago, when I was fairly new to Open Salon. There may be a small few who remember it, but for most of you, it will be brand new.
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Comments
Yes... I remember this post. Maine's reversal saddens me because there is no logic to it. I too have seen AIDS patients die alone. I've counseled others who feared dying alone. At least, you saw the light and moved on into reality. ~R~
What I have been so amazed by is the grace with which my friends in Maine who will be affected by this have taken the defeat. If they can still feel hope after having their families slapped in the face, then I feel like I need to follow their lead. I think the trick is finding a different road to travel to get to marriage equality. This shouldn't be an issue that is up for popular vote. As many have said, it's personal, not political.
I love the last line especially, "...The differences are so miniscule, they cannot be seen by the wise and open eyes of compassion."
I just love that line! And all that you have shared here about your life, dad's finally chapter and the impact of the death of a gay man, crossing into our last moments with our father. Very piercing and raw.
I do remember the words. Thank you so much for this post. As you know we come from a similar place in regard to this issue. I was stunned that Maine chose to deny some of our citizens the rights afforded to others.
Those who rejoice in the “victory” they have won are both short sighted and unaware of where the path of denying certain citizens Constitutional rights can lead. If the Constitution is ignored in one case it will certainly be ignored in others soon.
Article IV, Section 2. of the Constitution reads, “The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.”
That seems clear.
All citizens should be eager to insure that these protections and privileges are afforded to everyone - without discrimination.
I think you know I am not one to ever plug a personal piece Mary. But I did write an article some time back addressing the rights of gays to marry as well as the nonsense and dangers of believing in the so-called “Christian Nation” lie.
I deeply admire your manner of writing. I especially appreciate how you consistently manage to use your personal experience to make such vital and moving points.
Rated and appreciated very much.
It is astounding to me how anyone can abandon a child for the simple reason that he is homosexual. As a mother, there is nothing my kids could do or be that would cause me to turn away from them, especially in a time of horrible pain. How tragic!
All seven of us, dad's kids, and mom were in the waiting room. I remember we went from crying to laughing hysterically to telling dark jokes to singing songs. We were probably the most rowdy family to hit a brain surgery waiting room. But then the young man screamed. And screamed and screamed and screamed. It wouldn't stop. We were all so shocked. A nurse told us about the AIDS and we begged them to give the guy something to put him out of his pain and she said that nothing worked.
We couldn't believe it. He may as well have been told to go run home with a bullet hole in his stomach the pain was so bad. If you can be knocked out for surgery or wisdom teeth being pulled, why not put this poor boy under? My god!!!
I'm sick about this kind of issue ending up on a ballot. It distract us highly distractable Americans from the important issues of health care, war, loosing our rights, education, starving children in our country, cures for diseases, etc., etc., etc. And from the most important issue of all, "Who will be America's Next To Model?" Sorry, I'm apt to black humor from time to time. Great post!
A moving, vivid story and a gutsy, resolute decision that shaped your life for the better. Kudos to you.
The United Church of Christ allows each congregation to be autonomous, so a specific congregation may not support, but a majority do.
It's hard to get past some of the things that we are taught to think when we are young. I learned hatred, bigotry and racism from my father (as he had likely learned it from his past) and was once like that myself, though all the time I knew it was wrong, it was what I'd been taught. Maturing and 'allowing' myself to think for myself and be myself was difficult. I didn't have a really stark event like you did to help me along and see the light and errors of my ways. But I did at a fairly young age start to put the pieces together. How anyone can deny someone else happiness is always wrong. I can see no damage to society in anyway by letting gays and lesbians get married. In fact, I thing they should have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us. (that's a joke, Mare ;-))
I am very sad about Maine. It's hard for me to believe that people are CELEBRATING this.
Isn't it fascinating when the events of "real life" collide head-on with the dogma and rhetoric from the pulpit?
But, unlike many zealots, you listened to the voice of reason, followed your heart, and arrived at a very good place.
I commend you, not only for that, but for your continued willingness to look into the events that have shaped you.
Wonderful post and Rated.
That era, when parents shunned their dying AIDs-afflicted children, was one of the most heartbreaking in memory. You brought it home vividly, but your own growth gives us all hope, as well.
It is my belief that heterosexual unmarried couples (boyfriends/girlfriends) should not be granted the hospital visitiation rights until LGBT couples are granted the same right. Sadly, in the case of a heterosexual couple, their relationship is often not even questioned by the hospital. And THAT is the injustice
I'm sick that people are making this to be about "religion" when we all know, as Verbal mentioned above, that Jesus would love us all equally.
I'm very depressed by the Maine defeat, today. And I'm remembering the simultaneous "Hooray" and *&%^#$!" feelings of California voters a year ago, today.
Prop 8 and Prop 1 can't be allowed to stand.
I too left the church behind when I realized I was queer. That doesn’t mean that I don’t have a deep abiding faith in a higher power, it just means it doesn’t require me to be surrounded by a bunch of homophobic asshats to believe.
I also have been “disowned” by my family because of my orientation. One Sunday a little over a year ago, my parents and most of the members of my family got up in front of the congregation of their church and publicly disowned my family and myself. Seems the minister had finally convinced my father that I was an unrepentant sinner and that he had to shed himself of me, for the good of his family and his own soul. So, amid condemnations of myself, my spouse (the Jezebel who led me into damnation) and both of his grandchildren (the term they used was “abominations”), no one in my family has had any further contact with us. Thankfully, the exception was my sister and her husband who told both the church AND my family to screw off.
I’d really like the 53%’er to have been there when we had to tell our kids, “No we won’t be going to see Grammy and Grampy this year… They don’t want to se us any more.”
Now that my MS is getting worse, I am grateful for having such a strong sister and brother-in-law, but I really could have used my mom’s shoulder a time or two.
P.S. Dad: Just in the one in a million chance you ever read this… your grandkids still love you.
That memory remains fixed as a reminder of how painful it must be to share the kind of love that can't be spoken or expressed, and of how incredibly selfish others are to deny two people that love.
I know exactly how you feel. My relationship with gay friends was the catalyst to my questioning as well. It's a long, rough journey to try to figure out what you believe and not what you were brainwashed to believe.
Now, when I look for a spiritual community, my number one priority is that they are gay friendly.
Rated with Love and Total Understanding.
Thank you for this lovely master piece!
Thank you for this excellent post.
My time in that ward was eye opening and amazing. The feeling of love and acceptance for all of us, gay and straight was amazing. Never before had I realized the implication of being in a group, which condemns and ostracizes gays (or any other group). The unspoken implication, that at any moment, I too, could be considered beyond the pale. I joined the choir, sang with my gay and straight "brothers and sisters" and basically had an amazing experience.
Later, my cousin, who was my sole emotional support growing up, came out to me one night. Because of my time in this lovely ward, I didn't respond to him with a hateful "your're doomed" or some other hideous response. I was able to see beyond the "behavior" to the same cousin I loved. I also saw his fear of losing me, and his desire to live an honest life. Rather than offended, I was honored he felt he could share his true life with me.
Every day, I am grateful for my time in that ward and the wisdom of that bishop.
Thank you for your post. It is timely and should make us all think!!
Education can be a painful process, but the rewards are many.
I'll repeat what I've told others today: Change is coming. Like a beast who strikes out in the throes of death, these setbacks loom large, but Change Is Coming.
New City Council head in Detroit - an out gay man.
Chapel Hill, N.C. - an out gay mayor elected.
Houston, Texas - an out lesbian candidate moves on to a run-off, having won a plurality.
These things all happened in the last 24 hours.
Change is coming. Never lose hope.
Thanks for your post, very nice.
two -- my Christian uncle tried to convince my parents to disown me just because I was getting divorced. he had to eat a lot of crow. Maybe those rwnj's will some day be eating crow, too.
three -- absolutely beautiful writing about a huge milestone in your life.
And meanwhile, the faithful keep committing atrocities in the name of staying ignorant and uninvolved with humanity.
But that's just my opinion.
FWIW, Wicca is a spiritual path that has lotsa gay people.
I'm so grateful that the the fundie religion I was exposed to in my childhood didn't take. (Dinosaurs saved me!) I'm also grateful to know some gay people whose parents & extended family are "accepting" - horrible term, but you know what I mean.
Why people give a shit about other people's private business is beyond me.
(I loved your line about the fog: hungry fingers) :)
Don't worry about Maine and Cali. The tide has already turned; it's a matter of time. Think about how far this country has come in just a few decades.
Like you, I was also raised as a fundamentalist (evangelical) Christian, so I was taught to hate gays -- and, really, anyone who didn't proscribe exactly to my church's views. It was a sad, fearful, anxious, limiting life. Fortunately (though it didn't seem that way at the time), some really tough life situations encouraged me to (mentally) escape the evangelical lifestyle when I was about 16.
When I was 18, my dad came out as gay. He was still married to mom, still living at home -- oh, God, the aftermath of that experience was painful for years. But, for the first time in my life, I saw my dad act happy, alive... like he loved himself. Makes sense -- he'd spent decades living a lie and surrounding himself with people who hated a huge (secret) part of him. As a child, I barely knew my dad -- I think he was so unhappy that he couldn't bring himself to interact much with my mom, sister, and me. Now, 14 years after his coming out, we are close -- friends, even. My only regret about my dad coming out is that he didn't do it much, much sooner!
I love reading about your transformation away from fundamentalism. It echoes so many of my experiences, and I just end each story feeling very proud of you. Plus, your writing is very compelling, so it's just a fun read!
What was also heartening to see were the comments from those of faith pointing out that many churches are welcoming to the gay community.
Impressive to me were the comments of those encouraging people like me who become very disheartened when hearing about the election results in states like California and Maine. It won't happen in Colorado because there are laws like cement here that will take decades to break up before this would even be on a ballot. Many residents of Colorado aren't even aware of this subtle yet insipid law.
Safe_bet's story was especially heart wrenching and I don't understand the family that decided that she wasn't good enough.
dvorasnell: Well, you just shattered a myth I had about Mormons...my guess is that bishop was a rare breed but your story made my day...what a beautiful human being he was!
These comments are worth their weight in gold...I've reread them all several times. And Tom Cordle's question is still ringing in my ears, "Why is it so rare?"
If you think God's heart doesn't break, and that multitudes of Christians also do not weep for that young man and all of the tragic victims of AIDS then you are wrong.
The assumptions you make are stark. Why do you judge God and the church by the extreme elements in that culture? There are more Christian organizations that are committed to helping AIDS victims than there are secular or gay organizations. Particularly in Africa. I don’t see the gay community spending all of their efforts over there in AIDS mecca fighting the good fight. Just because there are judgments being cast against gays by some on the religious right, do not be so quick to draw lines in the sand.
I’ll bet you have tolerance for peaceful Muslims. Yet it was Muslims that committed the worst atrocity in American history.
If the gay community were to be judged by the most extreme elements within that culture then all of the judgments would be justified. Look at the horrible atrocities committed by gay priests against young men. Look at NAMBLA. Look at the extreme members of the gay community who WANT to spread AIDS to keep it in the public spotlight. That was documented in a series of published articles in OUT magazine.
How dare you make your weird personal epiphany the standard whereby you judge a whole religion. Just because your goofy church led you down a twisted hateful path doesn’t give you the right to judge God and the rest of Christianity by that standard. Your kids “jumping up and down” for joy tells me your messed up legalistic perspective on church was broken before you had your revelation.
You definitely needed a spiritual overhaul, but to blame Christianity for your goofy perspective is not Gods fault. Do you think Jesus would be picketing abortion clinics or condemning gays? He would hate the abortion and He would hate the sin of homosexuality, but He would be living as He did, side by side with those same people, loving them, healing them, smiling and supporting them in their walk with God.
He would do this knowing that once that relationship was in place, those other things would take care of themselves. You have chosen to judge God and American Christianity by those who obviously have misrepresented His message.
God did not ever create a homosexual. You, nor any gay will ever change that. Your assumption is what defines the lines that do get drawn. It is the activism on the left that causes the problems. It is unfair to allow gays to redefine marriage or to even frame the arguments for everyone.
I am so sorry that God was so misrepresented to you that you felt the need to lead your whole family away from Him.
If God is......then we have an obligation to understand Him/Her on God's terms...not our own. I can not decide one day that I am going to define God on my terms. That God would end up looking like me, just like yours seems to look like you.
He still loves you and He still loves gays and His heart still breaks. He misses you and your family. You should find a compassionate place to worship. Peace.
I so appreciate the good work of a true Christian, Mel White, who wrote the compelling book, Stranger at the Gate. His website,
soulforce.org is a fantastic resource for Christians who are gay or have gay families. Unfortunately for Mel White, who was once a Christian ghostwriter for the likes of Billy Graham, once he came out, he was immediately fired and disenfranchised from those he had known and loved for many years...most mainstream Christians.
Your defensiveness and judgmental response to me is not unexpected. People like you are the reason I left religion and found spirituality.... I have shared only my story and my experience, yet you say to me, "How dare you make your weird personal epiphany the standard whereby you judge a whole religion.
Insolent me! How dare I! I should go back in the corner and be a good submissive woman. Hmmmm....a lot of assuming on your part, and you know what the word "assume" really means...and really, nevermind, I just took a look at your posts...you're not gonna change my mind and I'm not gonna change yours. I can live with that.
Bottom line: Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
Blue in TX: Beautiful comment and I agree.
We are beleaguered. We wonder when the simplicity of this concept will break through. We want to love and be loved like every other human being. And we do not understand.
Mary, you are truly an inspiration. I am glad to call you my friend.
K
Living here in the heart of Bible Banger country, I am often made to wonder what these people actually believe. How can they claim to follow Christs teaching, when they reject almost his every word? It was Jesus the man, who kept company with thieves, the unclean, and the unwanted! He would despise these people if he were alive today.
I also cannot understand, how gay people here simply brush off such news. They simply say, "well you can't make them give up their beliefs. To them I always say, "you can't make them give up their beliefs, but you can surely educate them".
In the fight against credulous homophobia it really is true that Science=Good; Religion=Hate
Aloha Mahu
I know others have mentioned it, but I'll add my little two cents - there are many many churches that do not discriminate against gay and lesbian folks. The Episcopal church is one of them. Look around - find a faith community that is living the gospel in the way that you are.
I am struggling with something going on at my church right now. They can be so good and so closeminded all at once.
Rated
Very well written
Rated for class and civility.
A great piece, Mary. So poignant. Your transformation is admirable and I only wish the "Love thy neighbor" idea actually meant something in certain religious circles.
As for California, Prop 8 was badly worded, and one of those props that makes you think that No means Yes. Plus the anti-gay campaign was waged with Mormon money. We'll set it straight next time around. R, of course.
As you and I have discussed, I too had a time in my life of very strict Christianity. And when I look back on why I chose to join in the first place, and the events leading to my leaving, I see similarities to this story.
For a long time, this led to rejection of Christianity. Finally though, I find that there is beauty in it provided I dont let someone else tell me what it is supposed to mean. This is not a defence of Christianity, as I do not consider myself Christian. But it is a recognition that stripped of the bs that gets layered on it by those who need to be in control of others, the whole idea of "love thy neighbor as thyself" and "blessed are the peacemakers" begins to sound pretty good.
You are always a joy to read.
She didn't lose any friends.
Then you use some ass backward attack “assuming” that I would somehow wish you to “go back in the corner and be a good submissive woman” .
"People like me". Talk about judging someone. I did none of that. You have been the one on numerous posts to lament the horrible Christian life you were delivered from. I will repeat a sentiment. I am soo sorry that Christianity and God have been sooo misrepresented to you.
I find it so typical that when someone who opposes your argument makes a valid point, all proponents of your argument can do is cast judgments the same way, thus doing exactly what you are accusing those you berate of doing.
I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but I am going to give it a shot. I know you have abandoned Christianity for “spirituality”. I for one had a similar experience. I was an assistant pastor while 2 pastors in a row committed moral failures while in the pulpit. They both had affairs with parishioners. The 1st was with the widow of the man who lead me to the Lord and was my best friend and best man. His wife was my wife’s maid of honor. My best friend was electrocuted and killed in a tragic accident. Within 1 year, my pastor was involved with his widow. (that same pastor actually married us) I was spinning then, but I hung in there. He was removed from his position and replaced with another man with good credentials and a fine reputation. Within 18 months, he was also found to be in an extramarital affair.
I was done....I decided then and there to take a break. I was reminded of a scripture in Rev, that says that the saints works will be tried by fire and only those things done by Him/Jesus/God through us will remain and all of our carnal and earthly efforts and works will burn away. It was in that moment that I figuratively pushed everything I knew across the table to God and said” I don’t trust what I know. I don’t trust what I believe. Sooo, God, you can have this version of churchianity. You can have this BS that is called Christianity. If this is what it means to be a Christian, count me out”
Then I did what you did. I bailed out. It took about 12 years for me to realize from that perspective, that people had failed me but God had never failed me. It also allowed me to clear my mind and kick over some sacred cows that the religious right and left worship that have nothing to do with the heart of God.
I feel like I have been spared and restored. I know that the heart of God is broken by how He is misrepresented. Tragically one of the most vital, simple, yet almost universally misunderstood principles in the bible has ravaged the hearts and minds of generations. Strong words? This is going to take a minute so bear with me.
The 3rd commandment is “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain”. Most silly ignorant traditional Christians believe this to mean don’t curse, or don’t say “JEESSUS CHRIST” or GODDAMN IT”.
I find it hard to imagine God sitting in heaven wringing His hands over that, much less it being one of the top ten.
But, I can imagine, that if a loving, caring, compassionate God chose to revel himself through the very real efforts of people, that if He decided that He wanted to reveal Himself through those personal intimate connections between us, then He would write this……(I’ll get to it in a minute)
In ancient times, people were by and large tribal. The 12 tribes of Israel had patriarchs. Moses was a tribal leader. All those old testament guys lead their huge families/tribes. Like families, those patriarchs set the standard and customs for dress, diet, marriage, etc, for the whole tribe. If you were a Levite, you were destined to be a priest or support the priesthood in your occupation. You were expected to look and support the customs, etc of a Levite. On other words you took the name of a Levite seriously and you didn't misrepresent Levi! If you were of the tribe of Judah you were a warrior, etc.
Jesus was a Nazarene, as was Samson. They took vows to not cut their beard or hair. Those who saw Jesus knew he was a Nazarene because he looked the part. He didn’t take the name “Nazarene” in vain. He lived and faithfully represented what a Nazarene was supposed to look like. What God said was: Don’t take my name (upon yourself) in vain. Don't speak on behalf of me and get it wrong. Don't say I said something I didn't, etc.
I know how you feel about the vast, vast majority of people who call themselves Christians. There are 2 reasons people don’t become Christians. One reason is they have never met a Christian. The second reason is that they HAVE met a Christian. Most Christians take the Lords name upon themselves in vain and completely misrepresent God. Why do you think there are very few, if any, legalistic guidelines in the New Testament? Because He wanted the new covenant to be just that. An agreement, not a mandate. He never mentioned homosexual behavior because he wanted us to figure it out through love. Even when the Pharisees mentioned that divorce was “legal”, Jesus said that it was only made legal because of the hardness of your hearts. Wow. “All things are lawful, not all things are expedient”
As I said in the beginning of my 1st post. I will not judge the left or unchurched by the worst among them. I refuse to let you judge Christianity by the worst among us.
It is the sad abusers of Christianity that jaundice people like you, who otherwise might be pillars of truth. Instead, you have abandoned a lot of what you knew to be right and now you embrace some pretty abstract ideas.
No true Christian would ever advocate any judgment or condemnation towards homosexuals. To make that the premise for your argument is a total misrepresentation of the facts. And a simplistic emotional weapon. It works with many but not me.
Because portions of the Christian community use harsh rhetoric, that doesn’t justify the broad stroke hatred for Christians that is so rampant among the gay community. All that does if fuel the questions, and prove their detractors point.
When a loving, caring, tolerant Christian asks an honest, rooted in science, intelligent question, and wishes to be treated with respect and get a valid answer, they are treated with disdain and called bigots, haters, homophobes. (one I particularly like because it usually comes from Christophobes)
Then when that Christian disagrees, without condemning those he disagrees with, out come more attacks.
You actually used this tactic with me. Other than your disdain for the church, we have similar experiences and reasons to challenge some of the traditional religious perspectives. It’s too bad you chose to abandon Gods word and rational thought and submit to pure emotional persuasion.
One last thing. You lumped me in a category that was pretty silly. That’s why this tome.
I am sure this response is more than you bargained for. Delete it if you like. Peace
P.S. You asked: “Where were the good churches that you speak about? Where are the good churches in Maine and California? Where are the good churches who have not seemed to find a strong enough voice to represent all of God's children?”
If a churches wishes to stay traditional, and not allow gays to redefine marriage for everyone, makes them a “bad” church, then maybe you should rethink your “spirituality”. After all, is this a zero sum game? So what you're saying is all churches MUST agree and accept homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenders as viable, equal mainstream lifestyles or they are "bad". Your kidding right? Peace
Thank you, from the land of Jesse Helms.
Now I am sorry for taking up space here to clear up a small point that Philos made, but I think it's important enough to deal with and is relevant to you post--I don't want people to walk away with a perception that all gay people hate Christians.
Which, again, was wonderful.
Philos,
I wanted to address your statement that Christian Bashing is rampant in the Gay community.
First, yes there are homosexuals who are antagonistic towards religious beliefs and I am sure take their irreverence too far at times to the point of being offensive. On the other hand there are those few religious fundamentalists who show up at any gay event holding signs stating that everyone is going to hell and that AIDS is a judgment from God. It all feeds into each other.
However, I don't think it is true that the majority of homosexuals are antagonistic to religion nor is it true that gay people believe in God, and Christ, and so on, even if they are not part of a greater church. I think people who had a religious fueled break with their parents are more likely to wash their hands of it. My gay reformist Jewish friends maintain a relationship to religion b/c the rabbi told them that yes the bible says what it says, but he is not there to question God, and God obviously created a gay jew so let's just get on with it.
I wouldn't be surprised if gay and straight men and women of equal age, living alone or with friends in an urban environment had similar relationships with religion in general, as a function of demographics having nothing to do with sexuality.
Also, gay ethnic minorities maintain a different relationship to their religious upbringing as it bears on their family life and culture. I have gay Mexican friends very active in the Catholic Worker and others who think it's all hocus pocus but because anti -religious speech is less tolerated, remain silent on the issue as opposed to other gays more vocal on the issue. I'm Mexican, will always be at least a recovering Catholic, can't really separate being Mexican from being Catholic and would never tell my grandmother I didn't believe or belittle her faith. Nor would I yours. Your other comments I will leave alone. I just wanted to make it clear that homosexuals aren't out to destroy religion.
Thank you every one for indulging me.
-e
Bob
I hope those two young men you saw are still alive and that they found acceptance and love. My first husband died of AIDS-related respiratory failure in 2002, and fortunately, the hospital and our friends were very supportive. As unhappy as the situation was, without those supports, it would have been unbearable.
And to anticipate one obvious and understandable question, no, I never contracted the virus., so that's another way I've been fortunate.
BUT --- your title deserves a crown of it's own.
you practiced and shared an amazing amount of compassion at the hospital and by sharing your experience. thank you for that as well.
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." The Dalai Lama
I agree that we are all people, and we are all more alike than different.
I struggle greatly with people who want to take away rights of gay people, and do so in the name of Christianity. As if saying that you are a Christian gives you the right to judge, or somehow make people believe that you have some sort of "hotline" to God, and God is telling you who is good and who is not...
You have written a beautiful post in support of treating all people with respect and dignity.
ps...I want to throw oranges at gay bashers too ....