Mr. E's blog is not about feminism.
Do you mind telling me some basics things about yourself--age, sex, where you live, where you grew up, any siblings, any children, nieces and nephews where you attended school. ? Feel free to say as little or as much as you like.
I'm male, 46, northern virginia. Grew up mostly in southwest virginia, in the mountains. Have also lived in other places such as texas, tennessee and the carolinas. Have a bother and a sister and nieces and nephews. Have two kids, both beautiful boys.
I'm not very religious though am somewhat spiritual. I occasionally have dialogs with my creator though I believe it to be mostly pleasant fiction and a form of rumination.
How much are your involved with kids right now? Do you enjoying being with them?
As much as humanly possible. I think that's the answer to both questions.
What jobs have you had? Please include all caregiving jobs--e.g, babysitting, parenting, elder care.
I'm going to mostly skip this except for a couple of items-- when I was younger my parents took us off-and-on to church. It was a nice church, which was more about the nice people who were members more than anything. I really didn't get into the church part so my parents said "fine, you can stay back in the nursery with the little kids." (there was also a regular babysitter there) So I did. And I enjoyed it. Taking care of the little kids.
When I was in my 30's one of my companies was near my grandmother's house (about 3-1/2 hours away). I would often drive over and spend the weekends with her (My granddad died a few years prior.) She was in her late 70's. One weekend I noticed she was having seizures. I talked to my parents, mom understood, dad refused to accept it (it was his mom). I was in a pretty good position to help- in the process of selling my company and had plenty of time. So I went and stayed with her for awhile to help her out and squire her around. Made sure she got to the doctor, took her meds and the other stuff that needed doing around the house.
It was supposed to have just been a few months but ended up being a couple of years. She wasn't really good at driving anymore though I couldn't get anybody (including the doctors) to make her stop-- her car looked like a bumper car with all the dents and scrapes and different colors of paint-- many of which I could not match up with anything anywhere I knew she'd been. On the morning she ripped half of the passenger side door off and didn't know it-- my dad finally decided he might need to wise up... They bought a bigger house and set up a basement, and grandmother and I had a great weekend making the move-- her stuff went the regular way-- she and I had a great cross-country trip to visit all her old places and let her see everywhere she'd been or wanted to see. She lived another 10 years or so after that,but bedridden in a nursing home.
My heart ached to see her like that but there truly was nothing else to do. She was healthy as a hog and the nursing home sucked every dollar out of her estate and my parents are about broke trying to pay it all off. She died on christmas a few years ago. It was sad and it wasn't sad at the same time. It was her time to go. She had been in great pain all the time she was in the home. Arthritic and confined to bed. But those last few years I had with her were among the best. We had always been close, and I was glad that I could do something to help her out.
At what stage was the women's movement when you were a child and teen? Were members of your family involved? Was it talked about at home and in school?.
I think men were puking and rolling in the streets about then.
It was talked about non-stop at home and I don't recall it being brought up much in school, at least not until the later grades and in college.
My mom is heavily into women and women's rights. I'm not sure when it was *not* talked about in the home- ad naseum. She and her friends would sit around talking about penises all the time, especially with respect to the so-called priviledged class. It was always penis this, penis that, penis something or other, penis penis penis-- if ever there were such a thing as real penis envy, these women had it bad.
They weren't ever directly mean to me-- my mom never was and neither was her best friend-- both of them I loved dearly. But her other friends often made comments that I was too young to really understand at the time, that if made today would earn them both birds. And if they were in my house would be asked to leave. One other thing is that my mom had me and my brother early and was a house-mom for most of our growing up. My sister came along later. I was around 10-12 when she went back to school. So she was much older than the girls that were around. They were in their early to mid 20's I'd guess.
What did you first notice sexism, whether directed at you or anyone else?
That would have been about the time.
How are you a sexist?
I've grown up with man-hating "feminists". It comes naturally I guess. I mean that humorously. I don't really hate anybody, I just prefer to promote equality for everyone and not just one group or another.
Do you think boys are more constrained by sexual stereotypes than girls? What sexist messages did you get as a young boy?
No, not especially, not truthfully. Which is to say no more than girls. Each gender has a lot of gender-specific baggage they have to carry around. Also when I turned 18 I had to enroll with the selective service, which meant I could be drafted to fight for my country. Girls don't have to worry about that.
Some of the sexist messages I got were its not okay to hit a girl (girls, on the other hand were perfectly permitted to hit boys-- and still are for that matter). I had to be extra careful of girls, as a boy I was "big and strong" and girls were fragile (never mind the fact that some of them could easily have kicked my ass into next week). I wasn't supposed to use any bad language around girls. Girls were supposed to be treated with deference.
It wasn't until later after I'd grown up a bit that I found out that I was supposed to be held responsible for all breaches of birth control, and had no say if a girl aborted my baby. Also girls were being promoted ahead of me in jobs because of "affirmative action". (Also black people-- neither of which I really minded when they were qualified, but often they were not, and that felt very sexist/racist). I'm sure there's other stuff, but that's what I remember offhand.
Would you be comfortable having long hair and a beard, wearing an earring, wearing bright shirts or ties?
Have you been looking at my old photographs??? Yes, any and all of that, except the earring. I love bright colors. The brighter the better. My hair was halfway down my back for much of my teenage years. To my shoulders at least through my 20's. But started getting "business cuts" after I started my companies.
How have you handled it when you were the target of sexism?
Depends on the situation. If I could walk away I did. If I had to stand there and take it i would. If given a choice I'd take her on and demolish her talking points. Most "feminists" (in quotes)-- not all-- by whom I mean the girls playing at being feminists-- don't really have any substance to their arguments but rather just spew venem and man-hating nonsense. And when challenged to support their claims, fold quickly.
The true "feminists" are not so vocal. They organize and lobby to change laws and rearrange the system to suit their purposes.
The rest are ordinary women who have differing levels of interest and involvement. Have a hot-button issue or two, an axe to grind maybe. But in general are nice people and I don't have much beef with them. They are also the ones that tend (seem) to want equality for everybody, more or less.
Did you ever identify yourself as a feminist? When? How about the people important to you?
Not on your life. (Ptooey) I *do* consider myself a "humanist" or an "egalitarian"-- whatever word works to mean equity for everybody. And when that works to redress some wrongs for women, I'm happy about it. I don't wish women ill or bad. I don't wish to see them "oppressed". I want them to have equal access to everything and a nice plain playing field-- for everybody. And there are some more difficult issues involving gender, sex, reproduction, access to family services-- that I think are common to both genders but the specifics are very different-- and at times diametrically opposed-- making it tough to hammer out a true equitable arrangement that both genders can accept.
My mom is a feminist-- although I think she has greatly mellowed, and while still assisting women and families with "feminist" issues, has come full circle and is beginning to recognize and realize and say out loud that there were in fact some areas that women ran roughshod over men. She is working to form a more egalitarian mode of being herself-- we are doing that independently of each other, and only come together once in awhile and compare notes sorta. I will also say she's been much easier to get along with since as well :) She has been studying Bhuddism of late and has declared herself a Bhuddist. This I think is also partly responsible for her revelations.
I don't think my wife would officially identify herself as a "feminist" or with the "feminist" movement. But she is a strong independt woman with means of her own and the ability to affect and control anything she wishes in her world. As am I. We have a partnership. We don't always see eye-to-eye, but we generally get along, negotiate the things we need to, and divvy up stuff between us to get done.
What does feminism mean to you? Did you think the movement lost its way?
Feminism means to me a bunch of man-hating coniving bitches (excuse my french) who are tired of their traditional roles and seek to replace men in theirs.
Fortunately not everyone I've ever met who called herself a "feminist" actually seemed to believe that.
Also I think there are some real issues that "feminists" have to promote. And I am one to always acknowledge, to the best of my ability, a legitimate grievance even if the rest of the message is abhorrant.
I'm not sure "feminism" ever had a direction, except maybe this-- and if this is it, it was a very *very* good one-- to raise *everybody's* consciousness level and awareness to the fact that there *were* (are) inequities in the system (society) that need to be addressed. Everybody deserves the right to live free, pursue happiness, be respected in their person, have similar access to employment and public functions, and associate freely. And probably other stuff too. In THAT purpose, feminism has served admirably and women are to be *commended highly* in their role for raising awareness to these issues-- and the fact that there *are* issues. Further "feminism" was a reasonable platform with which to organize and coordinate the dissemination of information and reaching out to women-- "feminists" across the country and around the world.
And that's when it fell off its wheels.
If living with someone, how do you share the housework?
I guess I sometimes let her do some, if she asks.
We do things fairly evenly though not always down the middle week after week. Some weeks I do more, some weeks she does more. Some weeks we both sit on the couch and say fuck it. We both like a relatively clean living space. We both pitch in if we're having special company (she because she's compelled, me because its a gift to her-- I know she has some female need for a spotless house and so I try to be nice and help her achieve that whenever she's got company coming over... ironically it does not always work out that way in reverse however.)
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I am curious-- if you say your goal is egalitarian, then why are all your questions about "feminism" and women this, sister that, and feminism, feminism, feminism. Why aren't you asking me if any of the women in my life support MASCULINISM-- or whatever??? And support issues that are important to men?
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Did you ever take a woman studies course in high school or college?
No, fortunately I got away clean.
What books shaped your ideas on women?
Hustler, Penthouse, Swank, The Second Sex, a bunch of nonsense by Ashley Montague, Our Bodies Ourselves (several editions), The Whole Earth Catalog (even though it wasn't strictly a "feminist" thing-- it was one of the things that portrayed men and women in a *positive* light-- together, and made a big impact on me), probably numerous others. I don't go out of my way to remember authors or titles that much. I've read a lot of stuff but it all just pours into the great mush inside my head.
What books do you love to read?
Science fiction, mysteries, erotica (though not as much anymore, I'm kinda bored with it these days), non-fiction (any subject more or less I can get my hands on. I buy and scarf up old textbooks for example.)
Who is your favorite woman novelist? Do you think she is a feminist?
Mary Shelly is the only one that quickly comes to mind. I don't care if she's a feminist. If I like the work, I like the work. Her politics are irrelevant. I've probably read other novels by women- I'm sure of it. But none stand out particularly.
My favorite MALE novelists, though you didn't ask, are Kurt Vonnegut, Franz Kafka, Michael Chriton, Tim Robbins, and Robert Heinlein. I don't particularly care about their politics either. (And the only reason I know they're men is I saw their pictures on the cover and their names seem masculine).
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Comments
First off, this: "Feminism means to me a bunch of man-hating coniving (sic) bitches (excuse my french) who are tired of their traditional roles and seek to replace men in theirs."
Hello, bumper-sticker thinking, much? Sheesh. Apparently, Mr. E has never met a real-life feminist, or never saw her (or him) as anything but a slogan and a caricature.
I like Mr. E. There, I said it. He is smart, funny, interesting. He gives us glimpses into the male psyche. And yeah, he's as sexist as they come, but in a harmless way, at least from internet distance.
But some of his positions are seriously insulting. I think he has some good points on the abortion issue -- for instance, I think it would be fair to allow a man relief from child support obligations (and all paternal rights) under certain circumstances -- but he clothes his writing in such bitterness that, as a woman, it's not easy to be sympathetic.
While I consider myself post-feminist, his comments about feminism still piss me off. I have actually worked hard to overcome some feminism-induced allergies, but Mr. E makes me want to jump right back into the feminist woodpile and hit him upside the head with a log.
Yet I, too, find some feminists off-putting, so perhaps Mr. E and I have common ground, after all. Being a feminist is like learning to play the piano: when you have thoroughly made it a part of yourself you stop playing the piano, and just play *music* instead. Some never get to the music and are stuck stridently pounding on their piano keys. And I agree, that can be very off-putting, even with a shared philosophy. For someone like Mr. E, who seems to think of himself as a "victim" or "enemy" of feminism, I can see how he would latch-on to such women as his evil standard-bearers.
I think there's a good guy under a lot of the crap he spews, and I think he is smart and well-meaning enough to change his tune if ever he is educated. Fer crissakes, the poor guy grew up in the mountains of southwest Virginia, and lived his whole life in the South. We can't really expect too much from the poor bastard.
Wanna get nekkid and make out in my truck?
I honestly feel no ill will toward anybody when I write. If I emphasize words, it is only for emphasis or perhaps a little passion for the subject. I am not frothing, I am not seething. In fact, 99% percent of the time I'm smiling because I'm enjoying the opportunity to engage and debate someone intelligent who might be able to give me a run for my money.
Not until you can get my fucking name right. How typical!
I apologize!! I'm sorry!! Don't hate me when I'm an idiot.
@aim- I guess I missed something. Why are you so angry?
Rated
people who wanted traditional male careers have benefited a lot from feminism we all have a lot
but the mother at home has been hurt a lot that option has pretty much been taken away there is the high divorce rate and being a Mom at home has been really devalued
it still seems to me that women are desperately trying to be traditional males and everyone thinks that's wonderful
very few people want to be traditional females isn't that confirming the whole stereotype BEING MALE IS BETTER?
But, I wasn't around for the '70s feminism in this country, and it could have sometimes devolved into bitch sessions or attack-all-guys sessions. My uncle says that the problem with men and women is that they meet a few bad apples in the opposite gender and get soured on the whole bunch. This seems likely.
Your vitriolic comments on "feminists" and how you live your life with your partner (sharing care giving, housework, and choosing a woman that is self supporting and independent) are at odds.
I consider myself a feminist, and for me, that meant advocating for the equal rights of men and women to enter the workforce and work in the field of their choosing (including non-traditional fields for either gender), take care of children and elders, be similarly educated. It doesn't sound like we're very far off in how we see a partnership, so I'm not sure where the anger or even argument comes from, unless from what you saw as an angry mother. I can see where being angry at "men" in general, while raising a boy child, would be damaging to that child. I raised my boys to love and honor women, and as advocates for equal choices for all. Racist, misogynistic, bigoted, anti-gay comments weren't allowed around our house, by either my husband or I.
*If* your feminist mother seemed angry, she likely was because she lived in a time when it was *expected* that she would do all of the housework, child rearing, care taking and *if* she did enter the workforce, she still did all of the aforementioned *plus* worked. That can make anyone pretty angry. I have felt very angry at the system from time to time.
I think we've come far, but there continue to be a ton of men in this country and in the south especially, where I live, that put their women in a place that isn't equal and these women don't have choices because unlike your wife, they do not have independent means to support themselves.
Can I ask you a couple of questions?
What was your dad like? What kind of a relationship did your mom have with your dad (or other partners)? And can you give me an example of how these feminists get together and promote laws to change laws and rearrange the system to suit their purposes?
denese
I'm never going to get this comment thing right.
d
If you will re-read my comments about feminists-- my mother, who was (is) -- considers herself to be-- a feminist, was *not* the one who said these things, nor was her best friend. Both of whom I grew up loving and respecting and admiring very much. Rather it was the group of "friends", girls in her study groups that were the mean ones making comments. It is because of my mother that I don't hate feminists. It is because of those other women that I don't like them much either.
I don't have any problem with women as authority figures. I have had several good women bosses who knew their stuff and were capable of running a tight ship. On the other hand I will say, and you can make of it what you will, that my experience with women bosses is that they are more mercurial. Whether that holds true for all women, or that men can't be that way too, I don't know. I can only speak for what I've experienced. All in all, I think I might even prefer female bosses because there's a lot of bullshit that gets skipped. But I would not say that the environment is any less "hostile" or "sexually charged", its just different than when a man runs the place. All those girls "high-fiving" each other with "Estrogen Power" and talking about all the "heavy testosterone in the air" whenever somebody says something advesarial. Or talking about "birthin' babies' or 'female issues'-- it can be just as hostile as any male-dominated environment.
I think this is a marketing problem. You are correct that as a society we do not seem to value children and child-rearing. We talk about it passionately at great lengths, but we *DO* very little to back it up.
Personally, I would *prefer* to be able to stay home-- maybe not full time, but more than I am able to now, and be a home-daddy. I've got a lot of experience running my own businesses and am easily able to work at home at irregular hours. (I currently work for a govt. agency) I am *better* equipped to work at home than I am provisioned at my office. But there is no leeway for working at home on a regular basis other than my 4/10 schedule (4 days, 10 hours).
You're right. You clearly say your mother and her friend were not hostile. It was their friends. Maybe today, as your mother has aged, she would tell those women to quit spitting hatred toward men around her young son. I'm just sayin'.
And I HATED my rigid schedule as a working mother when my kids were little, so at one point I just quit. There you go. We didn't like my husband's schedule much either, so we sold our house and moved us all to PA where he got a PhD -- academia can be just as sexist (sorry) but is more lenient in terms of his schedule. So, I went back and got my PhD too (of course ) and we've been better able to integrate family with kids. Our youngest son just graduated from high school last Friday, but we now have a grandchild that we actually took care of at home one day a week apiece during one semester. That would have been unthinkable when our kids were little.
d
I am perfectly fine with the part of "feminism" that seeks to raise awareness and seek redress for inequities. I do not agree, and likely never will, that "feminism", per se, includes the "issues of men". For that reason I prefer to work toward a goal / vision of "egalitarianism" that seeks equality (equity) and equal access for everyone.
There are people I meet, men and women, who by whichever or whatever terms, seem to be working toward those goals. I'm fine with them-- no issues-- we have coincident goals.
There are others however who seem to seek merely to overturn and reverse the perceived order of things such that "women are on top" and "subjugate men"-- and usually with a appropriate rallying cry.
Those are the feminists I decry-- they are the ones that are harmful to the cause of "feminism" AND the cause of "egalitarianism" and whose rhetoric and vindictiveness is caustic and goes far to HARM and TEAR DOWN any gains and improvements made by any of the human rights movements.
I grew up in a very feminist-oriented household-- and by "feminist" I mean mostly the caustic kind. My mother and her best friend were idealists-- purists who, aside from their occasional conversations when they thought I was asleep or couldn't hear-- were nearly always just "mom" and "aunt v..." to me, in all that implies.
Lastly I think there is a large number of people-- I'm thinking of women, but men too-- who aren't really "tuned into" the "feminist" movement at all-- who perhaps have heard a thing or two, maybe identify with some core issues-- but otherwise are just out there trying to make a living and don't have time to think lofty thoughts. Likewise they've typically invariably picked up some of the nastier stuff to hurl at men, when they're feeling mean. But on the whole, don't have a problem much, one way or the other, with the general order of things. Probably vetch about pay-- everybody does that, male or female, wishing there was a better alternative for day care and things not costing so much. And, for what its worth, that also sums up the vast majority of men too.
I believe that the differences between men and women aren't so great-- and that much of what people, men or women, rail about and attribute to some discriminatory or oppressive force, is more correctly attributable to _class_ differences in the society-- so that what, in my opinion, would be MUCH MORE appropriate would be a "CLASSIST" response-- anger toward "class-ism". Which in my view is just another way of describing the antithesis of egalitarianism.
I respond the way I like. I read things, consider the points one by one, and respond. Then I read more, consider something else, make another comment. If you don't like it-- skip 'em. That's what the scroll bar is for.
You can choose to consider them vitriolic if you want, but I did not make them in a vindictive way.
Further, where is it written that people have to be consistent in all of their views, opinions, or attitudes. Let she who is without internal conflict or inconsistencies cast out the first stone.
"What was your dad like? What kind of a relationship did your mom have with your dad (or other partners)?"
My dad is a regular guy, good looking, strong minded, upbeat-- and extremely funny. He has always worked hard to hold up his end of the family commitment. There have been times he was the unchallenged head of the house, and there have been times when that would be my mom's title. Either way they both contributed to the overall success of our family.
My mom, for most of my growing up-- till about 10-12 as I mentioned-- was a house-mom. She stayed home and raised me and my brother and shopped, and cooked, and did all the normal stuff women who stay home typically do. My dad did most of the outdoor stuff (we had a very large house and property growing up-- we weren't rich, we just lucked into it, a big house that nobody wanted). So there was a lot of yard work to do too. My dad (and us boys) did all that too.
When I was around 10-12 my mom went back to school-- to go to college. Things started changing then. My dad did more of the inside work. So did my brother and I. And she started getting more and more into what would now be called "women's studies". She started holding "study groups" at our house and a lot of other girls-- 20-somethings probably-- were there. They were always spouting off about the evils of men, blah blah blah. I never once heard them say a single thing nice about men. I don't think my mother really put it together how demoralizing that was to me and my brother, or even maybe that we even heard it or understood it. But we did.
"And can you give me an example of how these feminists get together and promote laws to change laws and rearrange the system to suit their purposes?"
Sure, they get together, form groups like "NOW" and go lobby congress (and state and local govts) to change and enact laws that favor women. For example Domestic Violence laws that require men to be taken out of the home and arrested if the police have to answer a domestic dispute, on the assumption that it was the man who was being physically violent. Fortunately in many areas, there has been such a backlash to these laws that they are being changed and revised so it is no longer as much of a problem. Or in family court, the presumption is very much against a man, and men very often aren't even allowed to get a word in edgewise, or defend themselves against claims of abuse by vindictive spouses (or former ex-spouses). Or how in divorce and child-custody cases the woman more often than not ends up with nearly everything including custodial care of the children. (Women think on this one point-- how would YOU feel if someone TOOK YOUR kids away? Would you fight? Would you scream and kick and holler? Would you fight to get them back with every ounce of your being? -- That is the way you are EXPECTED to act. When a man does those things he is perceived as being "controlling", "out of control", having "anger management issues" or being "a threat to his children".) Or when a woman gets pregnant and a man has no say in the matter of the DISPOSAL of his child. -- Don't EVEN get me started on THAT one.
Feminists have been very busy reshaping the world to suit themselves and then DECLARING it to be "equitable" with no regard whatsoever to what the OTHER side thinks. I don't care what you say-- if THAT is your attitude, then it is definitely *not* equitable. And puts you square in that "vindictive feminism" camp.
Believe me, I'm right there with you girl! :)
Of that I have no doubt. My mom is much more assertive today than she was then. I'm sure she probably thought those were her friends and she had to put up with things (if she even noticed at all) in order to be accepted in the group.
My mom is a very strong and independently woman-- and yet she still has a certain dependence on my dad. They have a good relationship, and for the most part, they always have. Which is not to say they didn't have their moments-- I can remember some times when everything that wasn't bolted down was flying toward the vicinity of my father's head-- but that's another story :)
Fortunately not everyone I've ever met who called herself a "feminist" actually seemed to believe that."
Maybe because that's not how we define feminism????
Anyhow, I respect your honesty. I'm glad we can have this conversation, and I thank mary Wollstonecraft for opening it up.
Anyhow, I respect your honesty. I'm glad we can have this conversation, and I thank mary Wollstonecraft for opening it up."
Thank you for the reply. I too greatly appreciate Mary in all her efforts to get a dialog going. She is doing marvelously in that I think. I wish there was some more engagements in these interviews-- but I'm also seeing more blog posts being written lately that are stirring up some dust-- so maybe that's the real seed she's planted. Either way, thank you for the comments.
As I have remarked elsewhere-- can't remember if it was public or private(?)-- there are two types of meanings ascribed to a concept (which I'm sure you know, I'm just saying for the record)-- denotative and connotative. The denotative meaning is the one written in the dictionary. The connotative one _are_ the ones (plural) brought to the table by the various participants, and can be different depending on the previous (unknown) context of their experiences.
My experiences with feminism have not been overwhelmingly positive. Even though I can intellectually understand that there is supposed to be a different meaning-- its not the one I understand. Nor the one a lot of people I know understand-- and a quick perusal of many of the comments here will back up my point-- especially the ones made by men.
To @Dana's point "bumper-sticker thinking, much? Sheesh. Apparently, Mr. E has never met a real-life feminist, or never saw her (or him) as anything but a slogan and a caricature."
I would say that maybe I've not experienced what she considers a "true feminist" and one who didn't come across as a bumper sticker and a caricature.
I'm perfectly open to the idea that there are women who want equality and equity. I don't really care what they call themselves. Its the deeds, not the words, that really matter in the long run.
But I do care when they unilaterally start changing things and then declade its "equitable" without even asking what the "other side" thinks. There are _a lot_ of men who vehemently disagree that many of the things women considered "settled and equitable" are anything but. And furthermore, to my own thinking anyway-- seem to be just as bull-headed about listening and considering as the "men" they fought so hard to convince.
The "feminists" I've experienced sometimes seem very nice (and probably are) until you hit the exact right hot-button issue and then the claws come out and the cat-fighting commences.
I'm okay with claws and cat-fighting-- except as a man I don't get that particular privilege. If I engage in an equal manner I get called a "sexist pig" or ganged-up on by a bunch of feminist howler monkeys, or told I can't use my "natural advantages", etc-- but of course they can. And anything *they* say is *not* sexist, apparently by definition.
I was absolutely *ECSTATIC* and *BOWLED OVER* by Jodi Kasten's "Equal Rights for Men" post. It was fucking brilliant! And only SHE could get away with it. If a man had posted it, he'd have been smeared into the floorboards.
I *welcome* seriously I do-- *welcome* discussion and engagement on the issues. And I completely realize I can only speak for myself and only for "men" in a token way-- but I feel I'm reasonably intelligent, able to articulate my thoughts and feelings, consider a point and able to draft a reasonable counterpoint.
I also feel like I have a reasonable solution to a lot of the issues-- not the ones necessarily that everybody *WANTS*-- women (and men I suppose) have a lot invested in their conclusions and agendas and (I think) perceive the possibility of concession as a loss of ground.
Nobody has to agree with me of course. But the truth is very few women have actually opened their minds and stopped their rhetoric to actually consider my various proposals.
And neither do I make any suggestions with the notion that my way is the only way and that no further refinement, consideration or criticism is merited.
I welcome engagement. I want to talk about the issues. I want to scrap it up and get down in the dirt. I come armed with only my own thoughts and opinions.
And I stand ready to debate in any combination anybody wants to bring it on. I'm not going to trade quotes with feminist authors-- you do that if you want-- I'm simply going to listen to anything anybody says, consider it, and respond with what I think.
AND if I think you've made a point- I'll change my opinion. That's what *I* am here for. I want to LEARN. I want to grow as a person. I want to be challenged and made to consider things. I want to *understand*.
But I'm not going to take anybody's word for it-- nor expect anybody to take mine. But I do *promise* to listen-- and if ever seems like I'm not-- just trot this statement back out in front of me and it will stop me cold.
By here I mean generally on OS
I would say that maybe I've not experienced what she considers a "true feminist" and one who didn't come across as a bumper sticker and a caricature.
Bullshit. How about me?
You seem to want to believe that, in spite of evidence to the contrary.
I would say that maybe I've not experienced what she considers a "true feminist" and one who didn't come across as a bumper sticker and a caricature.
Bullshit. How about me?
You seem to want to believe that, in spite of evidence to the contrary."
I apologize-- I was speaking in the past-tense and didn't make it clear. I was talking to someone else in a pm and realized that I had met some very nice "feminists" (people) here on OS that are giving me a good opportunity to revise some opinions. And you are one of the people that I thought of.
Guess what lady, no-one wants your sympathy. You can shove it. Our rights come from being human, and the philosophy of equality before the law is not something that depends on your irrelevant sympathy.
Sympathy has no place in honest intellectual debates. What is, is. If your lack of "sympathy" keeps you from a truth, guess what? You're the ignorant one, not the person trying to convince you.