I just read Liz Emrich's post People of Faith, in which she wrote "... people of faith still have a need to feel that what they believe is, at bottom, respected." I'd like to examine more closely reasons why we might or might not respect religious faith.
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All the following is, of course, just in my "humble opinion." I am reminded of a passage from Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: The trouble is that essays always have to sound like God talking for eternity, and that isn't the way it ever is. People should see that it's never anything other than just one person talking from one place in time and space and circumstance. It's never been anything else, ever, but you can't get that across in an essay.
Typically we respect a belief not because of the kind of belief it is, but because of the evidence, warrants, and reasons that the believer can provide for it.
I'm not a "person of faith," but I'm not an enemy of faith either. But I never expect someone to respect one of my beliefs simply because it is something I happen to believe. I expect to have my beliefs critiqued, and if I believe something worthy of ridicule, I expect ridicule.
The problem with the concept of "people of faith" is that not all religious beliefs are created equal. Religious folk believe all sorts of things, from the wacky to the profound. What would it mean for me to "respect" the belief that David Koresh was really Jesus Christ? How do I respect the belief that the angel Moroni gave Joseph Smith golden plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon, after which he lost the plates?
[A brief digression. A few years ago I was working for a company that had a very disorganized and messy warehouse. One of the workers said to me "hell, for all I know Joseph Smith's golden plates are in here somewhere."]
In my observation religious faith is at its best when it functions as a moral worldview grounded in a mystical appreciation of reality, and this can provide grounds for respecting faith.
Take, for example, this marvelous quotation from St. Isaac of Nineveh from the 8th century:
And what is a merciful heart? - It is the heart’s burning for the sake of the entire creation, for men, for birds, for animals, for demons, and for every created thing; and by the recollection of them the eyes of a merciful man pour forth abundant tears. From the strong and vehement mercy which grips his heart and from his great compassion, his heart is humbled and he cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in creation. For this reason he offers up tearful prayer continually even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth, and for those who harm him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner he even prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns without measure in his heart in the likeness of God.

The problem is that faith often also tries to explain particular details about the world. As Paul Woodruff noted in his book Reverence, "many of us are awestruck when we contemplate the design we are able to find in nature or the universe, and from awe we quickly find our way to reverence. So far so good. But if we find our way also to specific beliefs about creation or theology, we can only do so by way of one fallacy afer another." [p. 124, emphasis mine]
Another basis for respect of religious faith is the extent to which it creates people who act morally. As Miguel de Unamuno noted in his The Tragic Sense of Life, "Conduct, practice, is the proof of doctrine, theory" -- proof here being understood as personal and existential rather than as logical and rational. For de Unamuno, the life of the believer actually creates faith: "Virtue, therefore, is not based upon dogma, but dogma upon virtue, and it is not faith that creates martyrs but martyrs who create faith."
Any supposed spiritual insight or worldview must be tested against an ethical standard. Is it any wonder that many people reject fundamentalism, not just because they disagree with the beliefs, but because they are unimpressed by the fundamentalists's lives, and see that fundamentalism leads not to an ethical worldview, but to a stale and lifeless literalism that often has little relationship to the realities of their lives? Good religion creates faith; bad religion creates unbelief. Many people who fall away from Christianity do so not because of any rational argument, but because of ill-treatment at the hands of their fellow believers.
Religious faith can also give the believer great personal insight. Russian Orthodox writer Metropolitan Anthony Bloom notes that
". . . prayer is a search, an exploration of this invisible world of our own depths which God alone knows and he alone can reveal to us. . . . And it is by prayer, gropingly at first, in the dawn of a new vision, that we seek and find God and ourselves in a co-relative way. . . Throughout the day we are a succession of social personalities, sometimes unrecognizable to others or even to ourselves. And when the time comes to pray and we want to present ourselves to God we often feel lost because we do not know which of these social personalities is the true human identify. The several successive persons that we present to God are not ourselves. There is something of us in each of them but the whole person is missing."
In other words, in the Orthodox tradition, when you find God, you find your true self; when you find your true self, you find God. But that's not the whole story. In finding the true interior self, the believer is led back out into the world in a life of compassion for those who suffer. Bloom writes
But praying for others is also going the way of Christ, becoming an expression of his intercession, uniting ourselves with him in his prayer and his incarnation. We experience the unutterable groans of the Spirit in our own hearts. And the greater our sympathy and the more closely we identify through compassion with those for whom we pray, the more perfect is our communion with the merciful God. Our prayer rising out of human suffering leads us to the heart of God's mystery.
For the believer a profound religious experience leads not to a life of ease and satisfaction, but to the center of the most difficult issue of all, the question of suffering. Suffering forces the believer to go deeply within himself, in an effort to make sense of things. And in that effort he is forced to confront fundamental issues -- mortality, injustice, loss, meaninglessness. To be human is to have an existence that is continually marked by these realities. To be a spiritual human is to allow oneself to be confronted by these realities, and in fact to embrace them as an essential part of existence.
Unfortunately, most American Christians have become preoccupied with wanting to be happy, prosperous, and successful. They have forgotten the words of the gospel: "Whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." Christianity without the cross leads to materialism and indifference to the suffering of others, leading to a faith empty of love. As de Unamuno wrote
"There is no true love save in suffering, and in this world we have to choose either love, which is suffering, or happiness. And love leads us to no other happiness than that of love itself and its tragic consolation of uncertain hope. The moment love becomes happy and satisfied, it no longer desires and it is no longer love."
Today, much of the spiritual and mystical aspect of faith has been drained out of American Christianity, leaving an empty shell consisting of "doctrines" and "values" that in my opinion is not worthy of respect. Fortunately, that is not the case for all believers, and there are many whose faith deserves respect, even from those of us who are not people of faith.



Salon.com
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Absolutely!
Because I do not believe that suffering is the only way to know ourselves, I will suggest that the substitution of Empathy for the plight of others is also a valid means to understand our relationship to each other and our Creator.
I think we can only require that others respect our right to believe as we wish, and that respect should extend to refraining from engaging in personal denigration when critiquing that belief.
Especially the "Treat with respect such things as he holds sacred" part of it. To me, this means that I'd never trash a Bible or a Communion Wafer, or talk while they're praying, but I wouldn't participate either. There's a difference, in my mind, between "treating the things they hold sacred with respect" and agreeing with the sacredness of the thing.
Do I agree with them? No. Do I respect the things they hold sacred? Well, I try. Do I let them proselytize me? No. I've been known to tell my fundementalist relatives, "I believe God is too big to be contained in any one religion. Let's respect each other's beliefs by not talking about it anymore." It usually works, and I don't have to argue specifics with them.
Thanks
An astonishing post, one which has affected me profoundly. But I am troubled by this quote from de Unamuno:
"There is no true love save in suffering, and in this world we have to choose either love, which is suffering, or happiness. And love leads us to no other happiness than that of love itself and its tragic consolation of uncertain hope. The moment love becomes happy and satisfied, it no longer desires and it is no longer love."
Although I appreciate the suggestion that to share in the suffering of the world is a key component of being human, I also believe that we must not dismiss the simple pleasures — the happiness we find in the sunshine, the breeze, in romance, in the arts. For if we only struggle in the depths of suffering, we can easily become lost, defeated; we must also find the audacity to seize the bliss, the ecstasy, the joy whenever and wherever we can.
A few years ago I was inspired by a passage from Albert Schweitzer's The Philosophy of Civilization: "The greatest of all the spirit's tasks is to produce a theory of the universe (Weltanschauung)."
So I began a reading project that lasted around a year, going through books from various traditions including Taoist, Christian - including Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox, Jewish, and even a couple of "new age" books. I also spent a lot of time listening to what is typically called "sacred music." My intention was to try to synthesize what I read and heard into a coherent picture of the spiritual life.
As I mentioned, I'm not a "person of faith" in the sense that I am not part of any particular religious tradition. But I wanted to be able to understand and appreciate what it means to be a person of faith. In other words, I wanted to try to get beyond the typical "does God exist" type of argument -- an argument that typically goes nowhere and ignores the depth of experience of religious believers. I wanted to understand that experience, even if it's not an experience that I have.
This all started some years earlier when I had a strange experience. I was one of the adult chaperones at an all-night high school graduation party. Having been up all night I left the party at 7 a.m. and walked downtown to the commuter train.
While on the train a young fellow came up to me and offered me a Bible tract about Jesus. Typically, I would have gotten into an argument with him to try to "prove him wrong." But having been up all night my head was in a different place.
So I started asking him some questions. I asked him about his life. I asked him what the Bible meant to him. I asked how he felt when he prayed. And so on.
What happened is that he really opened up to me. It turned out that he had been sexually abused as a child. Later, he became addicted to drugs and alcohol. And then he found Jesus and all of that changed.
When he got off the train I think he was feeling pretty good. I think he felt that he had shared something important with me. And I felt pretty good because I had engaged him person-to-person and found out who he was as a person, and not just an "object" to be debated with.
This goes back to the old philosophical issue of whether the gods command something because it's good, or it's good because the gods command it.
The problem with the latter view is that, if "the good" depends on god, then it doesn't make any sense to say that god is "good." It would be like saying "god is what god is." It would also entail that *whatever* god commanded would be good. E.g., if god commanded the torture of infants for one's own sadistic pleasure, then that would be "good." I would suggest that such a god would actually be evil, not a worthy object of worship, and frankly, not very interesting.
Respectfully, both you and Liz are attaching constructs to the word "belief" that make me absolutely crazy.
You first.
"... Typically we respect a belief not because of the kind of belief it is, but because of the evidence, warrants, and reasons that the believer can provide for it."
No. No. No. Typically, we respect a belief because we are either sympathetic toward a belief or to a person or persons who hold it. The more evidence, warrants and reasons that exist for a belief, the less it is an actual belief at all. It becomes hypothesis ... or theory ... or fact.
As for Liz's:
"People of faith still have a need to feel that what they believe is, at bottom, respected ..."
Please, Liz, someday dig into that one a little more for me. Because I'm completely able to separate out respecting a person while leaving their "beliefs" way over to the side. If you believe something, and I don't, or vice versa, it is perfectly OK with me. We're never going to argue about it except perhaps on the (big or small) overlap where faith may induce real-world conflicts in priorities and behavior.
Which happens a lot, but from what I've read, Liz, it's not a problem you and I would have. I don't have any particular respect for belief systems -- even for my own, such as it may be. But I still have my self respect. ;-)
And in case you think I haven't thought this one through, try out the idea of having your parents find religion after you're already grown. It can get testy, for years, but you can work it out.
Yes, I see your point. I wasn't really trying to make an accurate philosophical statement about the nature I belief, just trying to note that we typically don't respect a belief merely in virtue of the kind of belief it is. Let me give you an example:
On the TV show Sleeper Cell the main character is a Muslim FBI agent who has infiltrated a domestic terrorist cell. At one point his supervising agent makes a kind of snarky comment about Islam, and the agent replies "Hey, that's my FAITH you're talking about!" At which point I thought "yeah, so what?"
RCMoya612 writes: "Is there a necessity for a god to exist for good to be practiced? Or why worship him if good doesn't flow from him/her anyway?"
Absolutely, people can be good without God or religion. What I have observed is that for many people religion provides an emotional connection to life and the world that inspires them to greater good. This goes far beyond "belief" and includes symbols, metaphor, music, art, tradition, and so on. In that sense religion is more like a culture than a collection of beliefs. In fact, "religion" was traditionally used in that sense, and only in the last couple hundred years was it used to denote a set of beliefs.
Black Bart writes: "If God has created us in His image, we have more than returned the compliment. ~Voltaire"
Interesting that you quote that. Miguel de Unamuno, whom I quote above said that
"It is the furious longing to give finality to the Universe, to
make it conscious and personal, that has brought us to believe in God, to wish that God may exist, to create God, in a word. To create Him, yes! This saying ought not to scandalize even the most devout theist. For to believe in God is, in a certain sense, to create Him, although He first creates us. It is He who in us is continually creating
Himself."
Thank you.
No, you're right; they are not saying the same things, even though the language is similar. But the similarity of language is interesting. One speaks from from the mind; the other from the heart. De Unamuno wasn't a priest, just a writer.
People in the Christian tradition do in fact anthropomorphize God. But as the scholar Huston Smith has noted, we anthropomorphize God because that is the only way one can understand God.
As Huston Smith said "To be put off by the anthropomorphic character of God in scripture amounts in last resort to being disaffected with ourselves, for the reality we call God necessarily assumes toward us a human demeanor to the end that we may enter as fully as possible into what is ultimately impenetrable."
As I would put it, religion is an attempt to put into words that which cannot be put into words. One tries to penetrate that which cannot be penetrated, to understand that which cannot be understood. Thus at the center of the spiritual life is paradox, and perhaps even contradiction. Thanks for the comment.
Reminds me of what that other great moral philosopher, Yogi Berra, said; "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. "
But seriously, why should I give a crap? Might as well be arguing as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
The only thing worthy of consideration here is basic respect for others. For everything about them, not just their beliefs. And we owe that, not from any moral imperative, but simply because we all share a common humanity. "We're all Bozos on this bus."
I don't need no Gods or Goddesses to teach me that.
In one sense, I don't think you should give a crap. I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone. I'm talking about how people in a particular religious tradition look at spirituality, based on my own attempt to understand that tradition. If you're not interested in the tradition then obviously this post has nothing of value for you. And that's Ok with me.
On the other hand, Miguel de Unamuno was a university professor, poet, philosopher, and essayist, three of whose books were banned by the Catholic church, and one of the most influential writers in modern Spain. So he's not a bad guy to be familiar with. But if he doesn't turn your crank, there's always the "Olympic wedgie" post.
Unlike Huston Smith, I don’t think anthropomorphizing God is a way to get closer to the hypostasis. In fact I have a deep distrust of doing so for many reasons. As one of the ancients said, “Mortals fancy that gods are born, and wear clothes, and have voice and form like themselves. Yet if oxen and lions had hands, and could paint and fashion images as men do, they would make the pictures and images of their gods in their own likenesses; horses would make them like horses, oxen like oxen. Ethiopians make their gods black and snub-nosed; Thracians give theirs blue eyes and red hair.” (from Diogenes Laertes “Xenophanes,” iii.)” What images do we create? Anthropormorphizing God may be good for the individual but how can we share that personal image without chuckling or fighting over whose image is better? And there is always, l’enfame, associated with our ownership of god’s image.
I would rather think like the Buddhists. They have no conception of a Creator God, because they find this idea unnecessary and limiting. Avatars such as Krishna and Jesus are more appealing as guides and vessels to the ineffable but I prefer God to be greater than the scary old (testament) man with the beard I conjured up as a child. If anything Spinoza’s deus sive natura has been a better path to God for me.
As you said, “religion is an attempt to put into words that which cannot be put into words.” Why try so hard to put the unknowable into words when doing so creates the theology of original sin and the Trinity? The ravings of Tertullian and Athanasius.
In the end, despite de Unamuno’s failure to justify reason with faith, I will not yet give up on my quest for a rational approach perhaps because I can handle not knowing. Hume still appeals to me.
“Accurate and just reasoning is the only catholic remedy, fitted for all persons and all dispositions; and is alone able to subvert that abstruse philosophy and metaphysical jargon, which, being mixed up with popular superstition, renders it in a manner impenetrable to careless reasoners, and gives it the air of science and wisdom.” -David Hume
I defer to your greater expertise on subjects religious, and feel you would argue much the same as I would if I had the knowledge and resources to do so. Thank you in advance for considering this request. The blog post is: "How Empathetic Are You?".
I plan to post a longer response soon, but thought I would throw this at you, and any who may be interested and may not have seen it yet; a documentary called "The Doomsday Code".
Follow this link:
http://thiscanadian.typepad.com/this_canadian/2008/08/the-doomsday-co.html
and watch the video. It is 101 minutes, so you may wish to watch it in segments like I did -- I simply didn't have time to sit and watch the entire film at once -- but it is well worth viewing. I think it gives some compelling reasons why religious "BELIEFS" are perhaps no longer worthy of respect, and why we should fear them.
Check it out...