For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
-- Gospel of Matthew
I think that there are two reasons why people, especially new people, have an increasingly hard time getting posts read on Open Salon. These are
- the layout and function of the cover page
- policies about posting (or the lack thereof)
The reason why many posts aren't read isn't because they aren't good; it's because of the way that OS is structured.
As I write this there are ten items listed in the Activity Feed. One of those items is a sponsored link for Lexus. So in effect there are nine slots available. The first of the nine items was posted on 12:50, the last posted on 12:52. In other words, at this point the activity queue displays two minutes of activity. In addition, several of the comments and ratings were for the same post.
Also at this time there are ten "New Posts." The first post came through at 12:29, the latest at 12:50. So the New Posts section covers only 21 minutes of activity.
This means that a new post, especially from a recently-added member, typically has only a very short amount of time to create a "buzz" that will continue to show up in the activity feed. If it doesn't accomplish that, there's little chance that anyone will read it.
Also as I write this, on the rightmost column of the cover there are lists of "Most Read" in the past day, and "Top Rated" in the past week. In most cases anyone who wanted to read these posts has already read them. But under the "Matthew Principle," the posts that have already had the most attention get even more attention. The"Friends" feature also tends to reward those who are already well-known.
Compounding the problem is that there no posting limit on OS. Recently one member posted 7 (yes seven) items in the space of 30 minutes, effectively thrashing the New Post list for everyone else. At one point 6 of 10 posts in that list were from a single person. All of these posts were single pictures that easily could have been condensed into one post.
Yet other posts are little more than "one liners" -- posts that might take a minute to compose. These "compete" for attention with posts that might have taken writers many hours to compose.
Compare this to the layout and policies of the Daily Kos, a venue in which many OS members have also posted.
As I write this the Daily Kos has 30 recent "diaries" (the DK version of the OS post) displayed on the cover page. The first and last diaries were published 90 minutes apart. In other words, as of this moment an OS post would show up for 20 minutes, and the Daily Kos post for 90 minutes, or over 4 times the amount of publicity. In addition, the Daily Kos list includes the number of comments on each diary.
Daily Kos also has policies that limit the number of posts. From the Diary Guidelines:
- All users are limited by the system to one diary per calendar day.
- New users cannot post diaries for one week after an account has been created.
- Diaries should be substantive. A good guideline is that if you don't have at least three solid paragraphs to write about your subject, you should probably post a comment in an open thread, or in a recent diary or front-page post that covers a topic relevant to what you wish to write about.
These policies have at least two effects:
- the number of member posts is reduced. In effect people are encouraged to write fewer but better posts
- spam attacks from new members are rare. On Open Salon a new spam account can trash the New Post list with multiple posts before anyone can do anything about it.
In my humble opinion, the problem is that the layout and policies that worked well in the early days of Open Salon no longer work. When you have 300 members that is a very different situation from having 3,000 members, but we're still using the same basic layout and policies as in the "early days." It is now much more difficult for new members to gain a foothold and establish a readership. With a different layout and new policies I believe that can be changed.
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Thanks again.
Yes, the Feed & New Posts are not nearly as useful as they could be. Your suggestions bear some serious thought.
RATED
My posts originate on my computer, not on OS. OS is but one of several destinations for them. These include other websites, some known friends, and others. Under no circumstances would I consider contributing to the Daily Kos, which features items which make the irrational hatred often expressed on OS sound like love letters.
Blogging about blogging for me is not a fascinating pursuit. When I once made this point in an OS post, the response was so overpowering that it took days to clean out my inbox. I don't do that anymore.
I design interfaces for big hoo-has. I am working on some OS ideas. More later...
OS is interesting in that it's like a giant petri dish full of various strains of writers, to which has been attached various inputs, including technology, human editors, and the biofeedback of the organism itself, in the form of comments and friend networks. I suspect the editors or other PTB (Peanut butter, Tomato and Bacon, I deduce, for those not up on the OS lingo) will probably tweak one or more of these inputs at some point(s) along the way, but obviously a select few have discovered how to work within this system. (I haven't even mentioned the quality of writing, since that's a subjective thing and more difficult to quantify in this experiment.) So until then, I'll keep trying with the tools available, but I do greatly appreciate your post on this subject, without a lot of the baggage and screediness that often goes along with this topic (although some of the rants, let's face it, are pretty damn funny, especially to all of us swimming around in this dish.)
I've been active in online communities for well over a decade and I think some folks post here the way you do in those other types of places that grew out of the old bulletin board format. Their blog posts are the equivalent of email or even text messaging. Sometimes those are fun but I'm drawn more to longer more thoughtful posts, myself. And I also have noticed the Feed and Most Read/etc hogging because of the factors you mention.
I think a good compromise would be the one post a day limit - you can still go short, but you've got to decide what your statement-of-the-day is.
I've barely dipped into Daily Kos. Your post makes me want to go check it out more.
Agree that OS is loaded in favor of already popular posts/writers.
OTOH, love this place. Kinder and gentler.
I'm still hoping for more useful top-tabs on the cover, so if I'm looking for FOOD or LIFE or HUMOR or NEWS or HEALTH I can just click on the damned tab and find the most recent 25-50 posts there.
The other issue with the right side of the page is that their tends to be a great deal of overlap between "most read" and "highest rated". Do we really need two links over there about Amy's missing sperm? For that matter, since Amy's missing sperm tends to be one of the most read, it tends to generate the most activity. So, at any given time, Amy's missing sperm has been listed in 4 places of prime real estate on the cover:
-- The cover itself where she is inevitably featured (did you know she went to Harvard? )
-- Activity feed where someone has just gotten done commenting on her missing sperm.
-- Most read (because she was featured on the cover page -- and because folks who saw new comments posted rush back to their to see if anyone has responded to them)
-- Highest rated (because apparently people love to read about missing sperm).
Meanwhile, the rest of us are reduced to spamming our fellow OS'ers to try to generate a couple of comments and a little bit of buzz.
... not that I'm bitter or anything...
Your points here are excellent.
I thought your observations were "spot on" and your suggestions constructive. I also admit my bias, in that while I love writing for the sake of writing (it's therapeutic and cathartic), I also love interacting with sincere readers and lively commentators. There are scores of excellent writers and insightful thinkers here on Open Salon. I hope they get more exposure through this forum. Now, back to diving for the jewels to be found in the depths known as OS :)
Thank you for your post!
Churchgoing Agnostic
Silkstone writes: "I've barely dipped into Daily Kos. . . ."
Daily Kos is a very different kind of place -- mostly political. I never wrote that much there because I don't know much about politics. But I think they have a better way of presenting posts.
Greg Correll writes: "I am working on some OS ideas."
When you publish please send me a message. I'd love to see them, and since I'll probably miss them in the activity queue . . . .
iron fish writes: "I've been trying to figure out how to keep my little pile of electrons from being swept off the New Post ticker in less time than it takes for me sweat out a paragraph."
You and a thousand others! If posts aren't given adequate exposure, people will be discouraged from taking the time to write quality posts. We'll end up with posts from a few "big names," and a bunch of one-liner, throwaway posts.
Elizabeth writes: " . . . a great deal of overlap between "most read" and "highest rated". "
Yes, the same post shows up all over the place and sometimes gets resurrected day after day. While flattering to the writer, it does take up scarce cover space that could be used for something else.
Susanne writes: "What do you think about getting EP a handful of times a few days apart and then suddenly, never again, in spite of the fact that the posts were well received and highly rated?"
Ah yes, the Great Mystery of the Editor's Pick. Unfortunately that is a theological topic, and I deal only with earthly matters.
I also agree w/ Ms Knitter that prominence paid to she who has scored most read (ie, most page hits) is creating a cranky undercurrent. Few OSrs comment, having sworn her off, but she still gets EPs and cover placement. Is this who we want representing our town? I don't think so.
-from a newbie
Ironically, now you are being read (and not unread.)
"It's amazing how many problems and concerns do not arise when one writes and posts for the sheer pleasure of writing."
When I was first recognized by the Daily Scrawl for having written something that someone liked, I was thrilled. Now, I am equally thrilled when I find comments from others. If I am ever the recipient of an EP, I will also be delighted, but I have learned not to base my own assessment of what I wrote by such external measures of acceptance. If I had to choose recognition with no feedback or feedback with no recognition... I want the feedback every time. I think OS works in that regard.
Certainly all such systems can be improved, but I am hoping that the pending changes being considered won't change things too dramatically.
I have to say that if you truly believe or want us to believe that you write "only for yourself", you are not being completely honest. If you really had no care or desire to be read, they why not leave the posts that originate on your computer... well, ON your computer. Why post (by your own admission) to MULTIPLE websites? Me thinks thou doth protest too much.
I also have another blog that I will often compose on. However, that blog is completely (at least in theory) private and password protected. I do not open it up to anyone and it is, for me, a private journal. The reason it lives on "the internets" and not my computer is for one reason only: accessibility and backup.
When I post over here, it is usually because I have something that I would like to get others opinions on... a reality check, as it were. (Y'all are my vast army of unpaid therapists!).
My rationale goes back to tarheeltoker's analysis of who was posting. Some huge, huge percentage of all posts (at least at that point) were produced by people who had never posted anything before. These are as much a factor in the "speed of the feed" as the multiple posts on a given day by one person. My guess is that upwards of 75% never post anything else, and not just because they don't get any ratings or comments. I think a lot of folks give it a try but aren't really that interested in becoming a regular. If you had a separate stream for those just giving it a trial run, it would greatly reduce the number of posts the rest of us have to "compete" with for readers. And I can't believe anyone would be terribly offended if they had to wait until their second or third post to make it to the "regulars" page. Besides, we would all still have the opportunity to read and comment on the first (first/second) posts by just going to that page.
Not that any of this will ever happen. I've been waiting and waiting for those "big new changes" that were coming at the beginning of the new year... As far as I can tell, that turned out to be a spam folder for mail and more "friends' new posts" on our pages. Both good things, but hardly revolutionary.
I don't see why the cover page could be less static. Why can't the editors select triple the pieces and rotate the covers over the time period? Certainly, there's enough quality material to do that.
Susan, I LIKE this idea.
It's like shopping at a book store: you can go straight to the best seller shelves and pick something out and buy it and leave pretty quickly. Or you can carefully hunt throughout the entire store and spend a little extra time looking for something that really interests you.
I personally haven't put a great deal of effort into my own posts for two main reasons: (a) I don't often have the time; and (b) I don't want to put a great deal of effort into writing something nobody's going to read AND that I'm not going to get paid for writing. I'd take one or the other happily, but if I know I'll likely get neither, regardless of the quality, then fuck it. More often than not, the stuff I've written that I'm even slightly proud of was basically ignored, and the stuff that I quickly dashed off as a lark got a lot more attention. But as it is, since I admittedly don't put a great deal of effort into my own posts, I don't get upset when they don't get read or rated. It's not a big deal to me in the slightest and I don't take it personally or seriously.
OS is supposed to cater to the arts (music, video, pictures, etc), not just writing - substantive is subjective.
I think having sections, like in a magazine, would be good.
Since I'm not getting paid, or any kind of lucre for my postings here, I don't really worry about the getting read stuff. Yep, I'm talking to myself...
You have a beautiful mind.
One thing I disagree with is censorship of postings. I can spend two days creating a haiku that can take more creative effort than a rambling twenty paragraph posting. "Open" means some abuse but it also allows far greater strengths to thrive. I quit commenting on HuffPo because of capricious censorship and would hate to see that happen here.
My pet peeve is I would like to see a greater history of my comments. It's sometimes difficult to once again pick up my trails of pithiness. Hopefully they are listening to all this.
Don't agree with this one, for a few different reasons. The first being that I would never be allowed to post.
I have been conducting an experiment today with the time. I have posted several contributions from my own blog, onto OS to see what the uptake is. I shall return with the results, unscientific as they may be.
I suppose there isn't any system that could guarantee that any particular post would be read. But -- everyone's post should have at least a decent chance of being read. To the extent that the current structure of OS minimizes that chance, that's a problem.
My fear is that more and more people are going to start doing the math, and wondering if they really want to spend four hours researching and writing a great post only to have it displayed for 20 minutes -- if they are lucky.
I'm in the camp of those who would LOVE to have some easy way to find recent posts on a particular subject matter. Tags aren't working very well for that purpose. I'd like to see a radio button system (multiple choice, only one answer permitted) where bloggers would be required to designate a subject area (politics; anecdote; fiction; poetry; humor; etc.) for each post, and then the "recent posts" area would have tabs for each subject - or something like that. The ability to subdivide highest rated and most read by subject would also be helpful.
True. But I'd also like to reiterate that I think there's a certain amount of "lowest common denominator" effect going on here, where it's the readers' tastes dictating what is being read and what is being ignored. Nearly every day I'll click on a top-rated post only to be amazed that more than 50 people thought to respond and rate a perfectly pedestrian post. Or even more common, a shamelessly provocative post that is really little more than infantile flame bait. But like others have said, this is all fairly subjective.
Which is not to say the OS format and policies are beyond reproach or review, but I kind of think no matter what you do, someone will wind up disapproving.
Mariner Software has a different take on the whole deal, called Writers Pub, where you have to actually review others’ work, post comments and contribute to the site to "earn points." When you earn enough points, only then can you post your own stories for review.
One feature Writers Pub has that ought to be easy enough to implement at OS, and something I think would be pretty cool, is one that lets you see who is online at any given time.
if we return to Blake Mitchell's analogy of the bookstore -
there is the third way, which is how most of us shop - it's NOT dash & run, but it IS browse in some kind of orderly fashion. And yes, I admit to a certain amount of shopping ADD, but I do pay more notice to the books that are on the TABLES, the shelves lined - EMPLOYEE RECOMMENDATIONS or NEW BOOKS, and the Endcaps. Yes, placement matters. Here on OS just as much.
Not to mention - I'm usually in a SECTION labelled either fiction, cookbooks, Travel, Technology, Young Adult, Kids, whatever...so I have a reasonably good chance to land on something that was in my sphere of interest
I don't mean to pick on the analogy - I think it's actually a good one and has some seeds for organizing this whole OPEN business a little more to allow people to read and be read
Dorinda, o'stephanie, Critical Mess, Monte Canfield, Lisa Kern and others (I'm sure I've missed some - Caruso used to this on the Batz posts) have been doing an admirable job getting lesser known and newer posters increased exposure. I've done a few of these types of posts myself, many trying to expose the new OSers to the earlier group of writers. If there is to be a future here (and assuming the systems are scalable), these community based organizational initiatives are where I am hanging my doggie hat.
WOOF
Thank you
As for me? Sure, I would like to be read, but I also post becasue I just want to, and , if someone discovers me, great. I can't really complain becasue the company around here is much better than the company elsewhere.
perhaps the format can be improved, but the tools to find what you want are there. if, of course it's on os.
and people can find you, if, of course, they think you're interesting.
All wonderful ideas - I hope the editors are paying attention.
Even if they dont want to limit the daily posts, they could limit the ones that appear in the feed to one a day.
Good suggestions and points.
(rated)
Commenting on other blogs not only helps a new member to become a part of the community, but most likely the person on whose blog you've commented will check out your blog as well.
Read and comment. It's simple advice but it works.
This certainly describes my feeling of having spent a lot of time posting only to feel that my efforts are wasted short of having to pimp it out in personal messages or wait for it to die an eternal death by inattention. It's frustrating.
I've spent six months here now. I have listened to what Mishima & Rob & CCC & Kent and many other helpful souls have had to say about how the design of the site works. Verbal Remedy wrote an excellent post on writing good posts that made some valuable points about readability on a screen.
I have closely observed the writing styles, illustrations and just plain old 'what works,' but it seems like it comes down to using words like porn, ass, boobs, etc. & that just doesn't fit into what I like to write about or read.
I don't respond to the open call posts for the most part because I am too busy with my day job to write on demand for free.
And while Mishima says that EP's are a theological subject, I think that it is more likely to be purely capricious & heretical.
Wonderfully civil conversation here.
but i do wonder sometimes when i come across an exceptionally fine piece that inspires me to comment glowingly to the author and then come back a few days later and see that my response is still sitting there all alone
then my heart breaks a little for the author who is probably questioning his/her competence as a writer and i feel the urge to comment again and tell them..no..no..it's NOT you...your post just slipped through the crack..that's all...keep 'em coming
a few people had the right idea..they send out posts just to address this problem - recommending pieces that may have gone by unnoticed the first time around
something for me to consider
anyway, thanks mish for bringing this to our attention
"Them that's got shall get
Them that's not shall lose
So the Bible says
And it still is news
Poppa may have
And Momma may have
But God bless the child
That got his own
I got my own"
If you check out the front cover, you'll see I did get my own. And if you check out my blog, you'll get some idea how. I may just post an expose of myself one day soon. Till then, this will have to do:
http://open.salon.com/user_blog.php?uid=15949
I believe that the PTB do look at these threads. Who doesn't listen to users?
Kos is interesting. Just looked at their FAQs. Pretty serious over there. No pictures, no blog sites to speak of--nothing with a banner by Ric!
I do like what they do with trolls. They post recipes on their posts. They have put books together out of this for a benefit. Now, that's cool.
Perhaps if there were a limit of three or five per day or a limit of one per few hours, that would be helpful.
One of the other issues I'm sure with trying to regulate and structure a site like this is in the amount of people available to decide what shows up on the cover, what exactly an "editor's pick" is (I am in no place to discuss such theological matters either - but I am happy that the all powerful editors have picked a handful of my posts...don't want to offend the all powerful pixel lords). I'm sure if there was a way to get more people involved in these matters, things could potentially look different.
Something else for newer folks to keep in mind is just to keep reading and keep writing. One of the biggest things that drives traffic is commenting on others posts. I found it extremely frustrating for the first couple months I started writing on here that I'd barely get any views. But the more I read and comment, the more traffic that pops back my way. Not a great solution for people, but it's at least a place to start.
As a closet spiritualist I have encountered an a scenario that Heaven is merely a haven where those who are 'well with their soul' can be distinguished by their footwear, giving rise to an alarming supposition that we are rewarded for our travails with a metaphore, and yet notwithstandingly I perceive that Grace exists and it is to these learned, sheltered, coddled, & unfortunates that I am drawn, not so much as to acquire comfort, or to give, but perhaps to perceive the Light channeled thru their own eyes, with whatever cast of dissillusion, hope, or wisdom Time has wrought upon them.
(I'm tired--you people are keeping me from doing my taxes!)
Great post! I'm still pretty new and I don't get much traffic.
http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=94076
- I do believe the restructuring and rule things are all good suggestions, but would like the community to get a say in the EP's and cover articles by having a guest editor from the community once in awhile. Maybe that might be a way for some of the undiscovered to get a little recognition?
I'm sure the same happens to my posts.
It would be nice to customize what we see. For example, know what friends post and be able to avoid the tedious. Like pictures of your pets, cute or not.
I wouldn't want to be limited to a single post per 24 hours, but two seems reasonable. I don't think that's a big issue here, however. Apart from the 7-post-streak you mentioned the other day, I'm not seeing a lot of people who are spamming the feed. It's just that there are a lot of people here.
The problem is that unless something is currently on the feed, there's zero chance that anyone will ever see it unless that person is already in your friends network. What OS needs is more and better ways of getting to posts. I tried looking at the "People" list once and it simply never loaded - does that function even work? I've also used the search function, and it brings up stuff that doesn't make any sense given what I searched for. If I sort it by date, I get a long list of people's names, not posts, and if I sort by relevance, I get year-old posts.
The backlash was brutal. I took down the post as I got hate mail.
I feel that limiting individuals to one post a day would make posters much more careful about their one shot a day than they are currently. It would improve the quality and variety of OS as a whole. You use your one post any way you like, but you'd have to at least ponder a bit.
I suggested this to the editors, who were very nice , and said that people use OS for many different uses. Yes, but once a day is enough, anything more is selfish, to me. No offense, multi-posters out there. I hope you forward your suggestion about a "post a day" to the editors , as I did,Mishima.
I ,also, agree with your well-thought out notes on the homepage. I agree with you completely
Good question. Since there are no pictures here or stories about sex I suspect not.
I agree with everything you've said. I have also been trying to figure out how to be more read, and how to find other good pieces to read. I hope the editors take heed and change the format.
I also thought verbal remedy's solution, regarding topics and seeing posts that fall under those topics, as brilliant.
I will also add my voice to those who would like to see our individual comments archived, so I can check back on a post I was interested in. Often, I forget the name of the poster or title of the post. Because of the 'creative' way tags are used, I often can never find that post again.
One other thing I'd like to see: sometimes, from the comments, I follow a link within them. When I come back to the page, I lose my place in the comments. This isn't a problem when there are just a few comments, but it is frustrating when there are as many as, say, are in this post.
It seems to me that when there are such well-reasoned points that are, judging from how many comments are here and how many times this is rated, considered important to the writers and readers of open salon, that it would be good to get some feedback from TPB (I really don't know what that stands for), open salon management on how they are receiving this and whether any of these suggestions are being seriously considered.
Rated 108
paula
I didn't really understand and shrugged it off, til now.
Now I know that she's a rated and great poster, and I like her stuff alot, so I wondered maybe it's because I'm relatively brand new here and I needed to get established with folks first. Never thinking it may be just a timing thing. (or maybe my post just sucked, period!) nah... not that bad...
I'm a recent arrival on OS who showed up to read and write, but as a professional geek, I've been as frustrated with the tech as I have been pleased with the quality of the company.
The site's implementation of the TinyMCE editor isn't what it might be, posting entries is cumbersome, and no stand-alone blog clients appear to be supported. Importing feeds from other sources seems unreliable. The FAQ page is rudimentary and I've been unable to get a response emailing for support.
I'm here for the content and find it worthwhile, but I can't help but notice the environment itself could be better designed and supported. No offense, but it's kind of web 1.999 around here.
So... what shall we do about it? Your post has a large number of positive comments. As a software developer, I'm often aware of how hard it can be to communicate with end users, and far from being arrogant, feel something akin to despair when my work fails to hit the mark. Creating interactive online environments is like city planning. It's not always easy to anticipate how inhabitants will live in a designed space, or understand what's happening or how to adapt to it once they move in.
How 'bout we go on the assumption that the powers that be would love to improve matters? How do we communicate?
Although it's nice to be all pure and "I only post because I love to write", I can't think why anyone would post if they didn't wish to be read.
In particular, to limit posts to once a day seems reasonable. Really, there's nothing so compelling, that it couldn't wait until the next day to be posted. Also, there's no reason why a post needs to be listed in more than one category on the right.
I think your recommendations would be of as much benefit to readers as writers. When I come here, I'm frustrated to see
the same posts I've already seen and often read on the front page and listed on the right. Of course, I look at the feed, but there are relatively few items shown. On occasion I look at posts listed on the Most Recent tab, but it is slow and cumbersome; I'd prefer to see a more compact list of the last 100 or so posts.
It's a shame that a small number of people always get enough exposure to get high numbers, regardless of their quality. (And I don't mean Dr Amy, who I like to read.)
As a new member, I am grateful for articulating every frustration I am feeling.
Thank you
i don't see where much has changed here since this post.