While it is true that OS members can pretty much post anything they want, there is no obligation to rate any particular post. What I have noticed recently is a number of posts that are highly rated, for reasons that are utterly baffling to me. I don't know how many times I've seen posts with 30, 40, 50 or more thumbs up, and I can only think "rated for what??"
I believe that a "thumb up" should be something the blogger has to work for, not something that is granted merely because of popularity, or because someone happens to agree with the point of view expressed in the post.
To give posts undeserved ratings has several negative effects:
- It draws attention away from good quality posts, as the mediocre post "hogs" the activity queue.
- It promotes trivial and throwaway posts, and provides and encouragement for writing such material.
- It discourages good writers as their posts are ignored, and mediocre posts are rewarded.
Thus, I offer the following Guidelines for Rating OS Posts
1. Does the post contain some personal work by the author? Has the author provided some research, analysis, interpretation, argument, creativity, or original thinking?
2. In the case of compilations of unoriginal images, music, or video, is there something original and creative about the author's compliation? (I believe it was Pascal who, upon being asked why he published a geometry book, said "Let no one say I have done nothing new; the arrangement of the matter is new.")
3. In the case of opinion posts, is the opinion supported by facts and argument, or is it merely a "rant?" Does the author appear to be acquainted with the subject matter such that we would value his or her opinion?
4. Does the post merely restate someone else's work (as, for example, in "breaking news"), or has the author added additional context, insight, or information?
5. Is the post about a personal matter that would be best left to private messages? (It may be that Smith is an asshole, or you are an asshole, but I'm not going to rate your post in either case.)
6. Is the post generally well-written?
7. Is the post easy to read and understand, with some basic formatting?
8. Has the author made a reasonable attempt to ascertain whether the assertions in the post are true?
9. Has the author provided obvious links? E.g., if the author asserts that Obama has violated the law, has he or she quoted the law or provided a link to it? Or is the reader left with the task of doing the research that the author should have done?
10. If the post does not meet the above guidelines, is there some other compelling reason why it should be recommended to the thousands of people who visit the site every day? E.g., perhaps the post itself isn't that great, but it raises an important issue that should be discussed in the comments.
I'm sure there are other guidelines, but these are sufficient for a start.
Personally, I would like to see OS members held accountable not only for what they post, but also for what they rate. Before anyone presses the "thumb" button he or she should reflect on whether the post is of sufficient quality to rate that. And I would also like to see OS editors held accountable for what shows up on the cover. If a post is not worth rating, why is it on the cover?
I believe that were everyone to give more thought to ratings that this would greatly help to improve the quality of writing on OS. And quality writing is ultimately what this site is all about. Isn't it? If not that, then what? Through our ratings to some extent we get the site we deserve.
TIP:
Enter the amount, and click "Tip" to submit!
Tom Cordle
Paul J. O'Rourke
Rick Lucke
Whindbagg
Kanuk
Mick Arran
Salon.com
Comments
It is always great to see posts with original material. I have had a mixture of original work along with news stories and YouTube videos. In a number of cases I have found a related number of videos to present as a unified theme so I have hoped that those posts have presented at least some creativity.
I'm not trying to tell people what they should rate, and even if I did I have no "enforcement" power. I'm asking people to reflect on what is the purpose of the site and to consider, prior to rating, whether the post in question really reserves a rating. In other words, if we rate crap and neglect quality, we shouldn't be surprised if we get more crap.
Why does the National Inquirer sell more copies than the New York Times?
I think some people have gotten into the habit of rating anything they find mildly amusing or entertaining.
I like your criteria, but people being people, behaviors aren't likely to change. There will always be tabloid stuff that draws attention and receives the almost meaningless "Thumbs Up."
Gold Thumb Rated
That's your self-evaluation. Your ratings are the evaluations by others. When I write for pay, my articles are in the top 14% of a few hundred thousand writers. When I write here, I write as I feel. Sometimes the result is a complete flop, and very very rarely, I get a lot of ratings.
Amazingly, my "serious and deep" articles are the biggest ratings flops.
That should be a message to all who think that everyone here is obligated to love and accept their internal constructual framework for defining "serious and deep" content.
So, we just go with the flow, and we write for our audience (which will never be ALL of OS or anywhere else).
We read and rate our favorites, and get HUMBLE AND REALISTIC about the battle between our work as it appeals to others, and our desire to write what we like and what we can.
Otherwise, in the pitiful year that I've been here, it seems that those posts that try to tell us what and how to rate never truly get over, because the "rules" and "advice" never apply to, or show respect for everyone.
The writing cops have never managed to show respect or appreciation for everyone here. And that is at the heart of any effort to sell anyone's work to others on a larger scale.
And I was once married, for about 90 minutes (Elvis Chapel in Vegas, show-girl career, long boring story and not the point) to someone who whenever I asked her WHY she liked something---book, music, movie, TV show, dinner, sex, whatever--whe would always say:
"Do you always need a reason? Can't I just LIKE something?"
That question has a lot to do with why we're no longer married. And why I appreciate your piece. You are answering a question that I don't believe everyone knows how to answer, which is "Why do I believe something has value?"
Not only is that a reasonable question. It's a really important question. One which if everyone knew how to answer it--we'd have a community that continually got better.
I think your list is great and so it prompts me to think---well, what else would I put on it? And what comes to mind is:
Does the piece make me laugh? I need all of that I can get.
Does it touch a memory or a part of my life that I share with the author?
Is it a piece that leaves me with the feeling "Damn I wish I'd written that Sandra!" (Sorry, my innter voice just popped out for a moment)
Does it remind me of why I LIKE this person?
Does it teach me something I didn't know before?
And the questions go on because the list is both infinite and totally individual---with a whole lot of shared items.
These are NOT rules you've listed. What you've done is much more important---you've started a conversation that can help EVERYONE answer the question that every single one of us shares.
That question is: "What do I believe is good?"
RATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I send posts into this ocean and get in line with all the other messages in a bottle.
I have no expectations, thus no disappointments.
Athletes go to gyms to work out.
Writers come here to, as Robert Frost said of free verse poetry: "to play tennis without a net."
15 Love
2. Sometimes people consider the “services” to carry the idea further. I would ask in such cases that they cite the origin, make it clear they are not the origin.
3. I think rants are undervalued, but should be identified as such. In the olden days, newspaper articles used to either be news (factual, some attention to being unbiased) or analysis (allowed to provide personal opinion), but the analysis stuff on newspapers I was familiar with required you to say ANALYSIS in some bold way at the top of the article to let the reader know. The analogy applied to Fox News would forbid people from having the station logo on the screen all day long unless it was accompanied by the word ANALYSIS in equally prominent fashion. If people say RANT up front, I thik it's ok. I think the lesson of modern news is that people want to know how others relate—that's an important puzzle piece. But it must not replace news.
When you've been here a while, you come to recognise the talented writers from the serial video posters, As an example, I know when I come to a new post of yours, I can expect a serious, well-written post that has been composed with care, whatever the subject.
I do get your point about good writing not being appreciated properly, particularly by the editors, but I will continue to rate all but the intentionally hurtful posts.
:-(
*smile*
I rate most times because an article/writer actually made me giggle or outright laughed, or they made me cry with their work, and not cry as in "This is so horrible, it makes my eyes burn!" that happens on days I actually go to the Cover.
But we won't go there. I say, rate for what you like! That's my guideline.
I still wished Ed would post comments on articles that are "picked" even more so that are covered so we the little folks would know WHY a piece was picked.
More than just "Nice to see you back &soandso&!!!" too.
But that isn't going to happen....
Excuse me, M666. Who's to say what is a mediocre post? You? I see this as a sour grapes attitude. I know, you're a smart guy; beyond smart actually. And that you're posts are always well thought out, researched, and backed with links etc.. But practically every time I run across you, you are boo hoo ing about this and that regarding OS; much like this post.
I would bet that you think that Trig Palin gets way too many rates. Am I right?
Well dude, I am a carpenter.. not a writer. Everyone knows this. But I have a following of (maybe idiots) people who like what I put out there. Damn the facts (sometimes).
Maybe sometime showing a little bit of personality and a sense of humor would serve you well. Give it a try.
Rated regardless. Going by your guidelines I shouldn't.
I doubt he would have called his 'followers' idiots though ;)
Let's only rate IMPORTANT posts from now on. OK?
By the way, your Celine Dion doing "shook me all night long" was perfect for the moment the other night, and I don't begrudge you a single one of the 60 or so thumbs you got that night and day.
Yes, me and everyone else. Our tastes may differ, but I suspect that we would agree on many things.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. I won't mention any names, but a while back this guy wrote a post about how a windstorm damaged his parents' back porch. And he had a little photo of the porch along with three short paragraphs. This post received 79 thumbs up. And so I ask "rated for what?" For literary or artistic quality? Not likely. Probably because he's popular. If OS members want a site where these kinds of posts are rewarded and quality posts are often ignored, then rating those posts is a great way to do that. People have to decide what kind of a site they want. I ask them to reflect on whether they want a site that focuses on good writing, or whether they want a site in which groups of friends rate each other's stuff merely in virtue of being friends.
Trig: "I see this as a sour grapes attitude."
Yes it is sour grapes, not for myself, because I don't post much here. But I have sour grapes about how good writing often is often unnoticed, and the overall effect that has on the quality of writing here.
Trig: "I would bet that you think that Trig Palin gets way too many rates. Am I right?"
I would have to look through your posts, and to the extent they were "overly-rated" that would be the fault of those doing the rating, not your fault.
Trig: "Well dude, I am a carpenter.. not a writer."
If you're a carpenter then I don't have to tell you about quality. You know what quality is, and you know it when you see it even if you can't define it. You know the difference between a great post and a mediocre post; I'd wager that most everyone here does. I'm just saying that that judgment should be exercised when it comes to rating posts.
Trig: "Maybe sometime showing a little bit of personality and a sense of humor would serve you well."
I didn't come with the personality option, and my sense of humor has been surgically removed.
Mostly, though, there isn't much here I wouldn't rate. The ones who are "popular" in terms of rates usually are deservedly so from what I can tell so far. Once in awhile I disagree and I simply don't rate. Ones that just are videos I never rate - that's just me though.
I appreciate your suggestion to think a bit more about it and reward those who put effort into research and links. I would like to see more of that on OS.
Yes, I, like Phaedrus, recognize QUALITY.
I like to think that I have learned (actually re-learned) the art of writing by hanging out here somewhat. I strive with each new post to get better at just that. For that alone I owe a debt of gratitude to this web-site. The sense of community I also hold in high regard.
Is it perfect? Hell no. A thumb down button would be appropriate many many times. Editors without heads in their asses? Yeah, that would help.
I wish you the best Mishima. In the meantime I'll keep enjoying the writing and the people here, and do my best to steer clear of shit storms (the one I was involved in recently resulted directly from trying to help out a real live OSer who I took into my home. That's how much the people here mean to me.)
I'll agree with mishima666 on this one - it would be nice to reserve ratings for those posts that are rated on their quality. I fully recognize that quality is subjective, of course, but it can be the hardest type of post to find on OS. Lively conversations (Most Commented) and interesting headlines/topics (Most Viewed) already have their own sorting methodology.
I don't think that ratings and comments must always go hand-in-hand. I may want to participate in a conversation, but that doesn't mean that I found the quality of the post itself to be top notch. It just caught my attention - someone may think that's a great reason for a rating, but I don't think that always has to be the case.
I've read a lot of personal stories, poetry, and observations on OS that are inspiring, heartbreaking, or that just made me sit and think for awhile. Maybe the quality of the writing itself wasn't top notch, but the post will remain with me for longer than an instant.
So I would add another "rule" to the ones listed above:
#11 - Is the post going to stick with you even after you've moved on to other activities? Does it make an emotional connection or provoke deeper thinking?
I think the problem is that there is no common "definition" of what a "thumbs up" means. It could mean
a) the writer is a friend of mine
b) I enjoyed the post
c) I agree with the writer's point of view
d) I want to encourage the writer
e) this is a quality post that I recommend to others
-- or combinations of the above.
While rating and enjoyment of posts is subjective, there is one hard objective fact about Open Salon: the limits of the activity queue.
Thus, the more a post is rated, the more time it spends in the activity queue, which necessarily means that other posts will get less time. That's just how the system works. And that's also why I think it's important to rate posts for quality -- for the sake of the site, in order to bring the best posts to the attention of others, even though there certainly are other reasons why one might want to rate a post.
I would run away crying but that's been done.
Oh and I rated this out of sheer anarchaic madness.
I'm serious.
I do not blame anyone for being supremely pissed off for crap being lauded on this forum. Alas....It is important to be relevant, more than rational when it comes to any system of organization, especially if a writer wants the ideas to be seen and disseminated. Even in the realm of the fine arts, affecting ruminations about one's asthetic requires a degree of compliance.
Of course Giacommetti would have been disgusted and brushed off the notion. We forget that Picasso used to camp out at Giacommetti's studio door, wanting to gather in whatever light the genius was able to generate. Picasso was at the top of his game in the Paris scene, yet he was mutable....aware his greatest triumphs to were yet to come....What is my point?
I think we all need to do more work on being the best we can be, and not worry about the crap that passes for originality, or profundity.
anyway.......it's good you posted this....
Some well-written, serious, *important* posts bore me, some goofy fluff entertains me, and vice versa, but I like to support virtually everyone I read who isn't intentionally nasty... And I like variety.
As I type I've got American Music Awards on. 95% of the acts so far doesn't appeal to me ... but if it appeals to other people, what can I do.
I do appreciate your concern for Quality - but, um, there's just a whiff of cod liver oil about it... (But cod liver oil is good for us, I know I know...)
Rated.
Ratings
since we the members are given the privilege of these ratings, we will use them in the myriad ways we approach anything and I love that about OS, the whimsical spirit in which these bloggings evolve and present.
just like there's no one type of blog, there's no one reason to rate, no one reason a writer might be popular vs excellent or vice versa. your rationale is yours. I jump around from post to post and if the writer has made an effort to engage, entertain and provoke me, then chances are I will rate them once I have commented.
Like Scanner, it's the comments that matter to me most and I make sure I comment on nearly every post I rate. I will NOT rate what I won't comment on, unless it's a topic that for some reason I am not comfortable commenting on (this has happened a few times but not often).
this is a very shmoozy place. it's not school (which in spite of it's intent is also usually a very social place). we people like to be engaged with one another, entertained, educated, provoked, bonding and forging ahead being people-ing people people.
even if there was a button to indicate "this post is superduper superbly excellent", chances are we'd use it for the same reason we rate.
It's what I call the "gospel" effect of the "Highest Rated" queue on the cover page. As the gospel says "To him that hath shall more be given. . . "
The "Highest Rated" queue on the cover has an interesting mathematical effect on ratings. This post got on the queue at about 14 ratings, and since then has received about 11 more. Had it not made the queue I doubt that it would have gone much above 14.
I think ratings on OS are largely driven by three factors: the number of people who have "favorited" the writer, the amount of time the post spends on the cover, and when the post is published. My suggestion that people rate posts based on quality is nothing more than a way to give the post more "cover time."
Some day it would be interesting to do a mathematical analysis of those factors and their effect on ratings. I know, that's a very "nerdy" thing to say, but as a data analyst I'm interested in things like that. I know, I know, I need to get a life, & etc.
Even though there is a lot of garbage to sift through, there is plenty of good posts that can fit my criteria.
And I'm going to do what I find really annoying when done by others:
[rated!]
rating IS the accountability.
dude, sympathize, but maybe you're barking up the wrong tree. rating is like voting. you dont have to reveal or justify your reason to anybody. rating IS the accounting mechanism on here.
on the other hand, there is some room for software innovation. for example wouldnt it be amazing if you could see where all your own votes or someone elses are, how they breakdown onto individuals, etcetera... theres a wealth of stuff on here just waiting to be datamined & wired up to the interface. but their software development is about as cutting edge as Yahoo....
read *glacial* if not *nonexistent*....
Like it or not there is a gate, and that gate is the ability of posts to be noticed. If people want to give throwaway posts 80 thumbs up, that necessarily means that other posts will be less noticed, perhaps even completely ignored. Ratings involve an opportunity cost. Rate crap and quality suffers. Rate quality and crap suffers. Your choice.
Stellaa: "Other than that, Mishima, if this is how you rate all power to you. I know that this is what the masses like, and the masses like the banal. Let them enjoy it."
Is there a shortage of the banal on the internet, such that OS has to feature it? Perhaps a new slogan would be appropriate: "Open Salon: The Banal Makes The Headlines." Or maybe "Banal Are Us."
Stellaa: "PS. on youtubes, the web is multi media. Images, sounds and video are part of it. It is what it is. So ,stop fretting the videos."
I don't fret the YouTube videos. It's just not clear to me why old YouTube videos unaccompanied by any OS member creativity get selected for the cover.
If I read you correctly, your view is that what shows up on OS doesn't matter, what is rated doesn't matter, and what shows up on the cover doesn't matter. If true, that means that we could turn the whole enterprise over to high school students. And that wouldn't matter either. Interesting theory.
I've seen many many EP's that had few ratings. And they, honestly, didn't deserve them.
Dunno how those guys pick them, but stupid me would have thought that popular posts (covering a wide range of topics, even those that I have no interest in) would garner an EP.
As that's not the case, I see ratings as encouragement to the writer, and I will always comment on and rate posts that I dig.
For me the rule is simple: Don't rate unless I care enough to comment.
Now, not to toot my own horn but I think my latest post earned well deserved ratings. While my contribution may lack polish, I think I put a great deal of effort into it. It's original too. From my own skull.
Great post. Definitely something that needed to be said.
Rated.
Speaking of Chocolate - Mish - lookie at 2 AM your post is at the TOP! I hope you are ready to do your statistical analysis. You can make a case study blog out of this phenomenon.
I rate when I like the read, but usually only if I comment. Sometimes I rate when irate, but only to attract more attention to MY brilliant-assed comment.
Speaking of brilliant...wouldn't one have to have knowledge of what intellectual depth and critical thinking looks like in order to see it in themselves and others?
The editors have abandoned OS. They only give EPs to enough posts to make a cover, my guess is they read the minimum to produce it. I'm not sure our ratings make up for that.
If they had several covers, like a magazine, and there was a food section, a poetry section, etc, then they might be able to review the best in category. However, they like the cover to be new posts.
I strongly believe OS could be a fantastic blog site if they worked on how to highlight good work. I can think of a million ways to do it other than have an editor read until s/he goes blind, but I don't see a willingness on OS's part to invest.
I can't tell my neighbor (or anyone else) how to maintain his property or what color his house should be. If I don't like it I don't necessarily have to go visit. It works both ways, doesn't it?
I discovered this before I was even told though back on March 4th when I spent all of two or three minutes on just a few sentences....
MARCH 4, 2009 10:25AM
How bad is YOUR OS problem?
Rate: 77
" Last night I woke at 3 or 4 to use the bathroom. Instead of stumbling back to bed I came downstairs and opened up OS . This is the first time that has happened. Now I'm a half hour late to my job I'm starting today. Because of what? Opensalon. My kid claims he is an OS orphan. I admit to being a little bit OCD. I obsess on things. But usually only for a while 'til something else comes along. This is bad. Possibly a progressive disease like certain drug addictions. I spent hours yesterday reading fucking poetry!
Is there or should there be a rehab facility made available?"
This I posted at 9:25AM, and then went to work. When I came home for lunch I had like 50 comments and nearly as many ratings. Being fairly new to OS I was thrilled.... but also baffled.
Go figure........ 77 thumbs
Which is not to say you shouldn't be true to yourself as you peruse OS. I read lots of things. I don't rate everything or comment everywhere. I also notice that I consistently read and rate others who don't give me the time of day. That's okay, too. It's a nice community of writers, and we don't have to all like each other equally.
Rated--for making us all think about this stuff.
its been my experience that blog sites tend to find their own level.
they're communities that develop a set of unwritten rules & standards.
if great writing is going unnoticed here, then it seems the only answer is for the writer to either move along to a playground where he/she will be appreciated, or learn to play by this communities rules in order to "get noticed".
i personally love comments & hate the stupid thumb; mostly because i always forget to use it.
To paraphrase Mr. Ellington, "If I like it, I rate it."
Everyone comes to this site for their own reasons. I respect your reasons for coming here and offering your thoughts and opinions.
We need to respect everyone's reasons, regardless if they are talented, mediocre, atrocious, or indifferent. You can't legislate taste.
I said on his blog that my rating of someone's work is founded on, but not dependent on, my friends list. That's true, because I ask people whose work I find generally -- but not always -- interesting if they'd mind being included. Then I follow their work on a regular basis, rating and/or commenting as I deem appropriate.
I would reject utterly any Aristotelean hierarchical approach for deciding what I like or don't like, or what I should or should not favour with a rating.
What is good, Mishima, and what is not good -- need I ask anyone to tell me these things?
Few things are less attractive than a 60 year old child.
I'm old enough. Please don't make me older than I am.
I wrote this not because I was unhappy with the response to my posts. Frankly, unlike you and others I don't post all that often, and many of my posts are cell phone "art" photographs that seem to have a small but consistentl following.
I wrote this because I kept seeing great posts from a number of people that passed through OS virtually ignored. One of my recent posts was actually about David Cox, a very talented writer whose posts did not generate the interest they warranted. Another of my posts drew attention to a great post in favor of gay marriage -- a position that I personally oppose -- that at the time had only received two ratings. You can see it here:
http://open.salon.com/blog/mishima666/2009/04/14/gay_marriage_second_time_around
Unlike your "copy-and paste" posts, the post I promoted was original, compelling, and exciting to read. And I say that even though I disagree with the author's point of view.
But dude, copy-and-paste seems to work for you, and the editors love it, so I would say go with that.
Personally, I want to encourage the artists here. When I see potential, the rate system for me is a way to say keep at it, thumbs up for effort. When something is outstanding, (good or bad) I am usually moved to comment. I don't rate based on popularity or friendship and I find that approaching every piece with out a preconceived set of rules opens me up to more possibilities about what is art.
I think that as long as there is a simple up thumb only available to rate a post then rating will be meaningless in a rational sense.
If we really wanted to have a rating system we would use something like the five star system used on Netflix. One star: hated it. Two stars - didn't like it. Three stars - liked it. Four stars - really liked it. Five stars - loved it. And then the system would generate a running, open to all to see, total of how the post was rated.
The problem with doing that is that we could send half of our members into deep depression because we now believe that the thumb up system means we are all like Sally Field, "You like me! You really like me!" We impute value to the thumb up ratings even when we already know that ratings don't mean much more than "You like me. You really like me!
But imagine if we put out what we think was our own little masterpiece (which is, in my case, everything I post!!) only to find that the collective average of ratings was 2.4. Our egos would go into a nose dive.
Now I know that many of us say that ratings don't matter. And we say that only getting a few comments doesn't matter all that much. And page views don't matter. And most of all EPs and Covers don't matter. Some even say that they are writing just for themselves, sort of a mental masturbation in which foolish things like readers are but a distraction. But I am guessing that we are mostly lying about all that.
Finally I would say that if nothing else is clear about OS it is that ratings and comments actually don't matter when it comes to EPs and Covers. And as long as that mystery of divination exists that is the choosing of what gets EPs and Covers changing the rating system, and most particularly rating on a more thoughtful basis and being more particular about what we rate, really doesn't matter that much either.
I am glad you posted this, Mishima. Your "guidelines" make sense in a rational universe. But OS clearly is not such a universe.
And I guess I don't mind that so much.
Monte
rated: and I am not going to say why. ;-)
Think about that before you violate labor law....because not only does it apply to freelancers, it also applies to Open Salon, Salon, as the holding company, and their ISP.
Isn't the Matrix fun?
Great post..Oh and Merry Christmas..Happy Holidays..