Not What I Expected

 

mishima666

mishima666
Birthday
December 31
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Still above ground.

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JANUARY 1, 2010 12:39PM

Warren, Wages, and Wimp -- All On Open Salon!

Rate: 14 Flag

 

Apparently it is big news that Rick Warren, pastor of the Saddleback mega-church, sent out a fundraising letter asking members to donate additional funds so as to make up for a $900,000 deficit in the church budget. 

Suffice it to say that Warren is not very popular here on OS.  Warren is mentioned briefly in Jay Leffew's post about Our Worst Moments of 2009.    Apparently no one told Robert Crook that liberals are supposed to be kinder and gentler, because Robert hopes to celebrate his death in 2010

In one reasonably popular post Bonnie Russell has some advice for Warren:  "I'm thinking Pastor Rick could funnel some of the book royalties from his purpose driven life, to his purpose driven church. "

And not to be outdone in the outrage category, Christopher di Spirito expresses his righteous wrath over pastor Warren's fundraising letter:  "In addition to being a pastor, Warren is a multi-millionaire, bestselling author of “The Purpose Driven Life.” I find it a telling comment on Warren’s character that instead of tapping his own bank account to help keep the massive Saddleback Church afloat during recession, he has the audacity to ask his followers to write checks to pay the rent and utility bill."

I'd like to focus in particular on Christopher's post.  Christopher di Spirito is one of the Open Salon Chosen People, or Frequent Flyers, however one might call them.  Christopher's posts are frequently featured on the cover.  In one 30 day period Christopher had no fewer than 13 posts on the cover, something unheard of for the average OS member.  The Open Salon editors love Christopher as much as Dick Cheney loves Halliburton, and give him the same advantage. 

But even though Christopher has this advantage, he can't stand it when people disagree with him.  To their credit, most of the Chosen People on the cover will at least take on all comers, and mix it up with people who disagree with them.  But not Christopher.  Christopher is, to put it politely, a wimp.

For example, Christopher  published an erroneous post about a photo of President Kennedy. To be fair to him, I don't think that was intentional; he just didn't do sufficient research.  Others pointed out on his blog that the photo was a fake.  But he deleted their comments.  Otherwise known as censorship.  For example, Robert Brenner wrote "My beef was not with Christopher posting the piece or OS featuring it on the front page. My issue was Christopher obstinately refusing to update his post and deleting comments that the photo was a hoax. He should have manned up, admitted he got punked, and moved on."

Manned up indeed.  Don't be a wimp.

Kathy Riordan was also disturbed by Christopher deleting comments:  "I found the behavior, and the deletions, most surprising," especially since the comments were not intended as personal attacks.  She conluded "it has affected [Christopher's] credibility."

Christopher could offer nothing but a personal attack against Kathy:  "She's certainly earned her badge as OS's neighborhood busy body. She's convinced that there is something strange going on everywhere on OS and it's her job to use her brilliant skills to unearth the truth."

Yes, Christopher is such a wimp that when corrected, he goes on the attack. He doesn't care about the truth.  And this from one of Open Salon's Chosen People.

But this is not the first time that Christopher has engaged in censorship.  In fact, Christiopher has a standard practice of censoring comments on his posts.  

On December 3rd OS member T.S. commented on one of Christopher's posts, with a rather mild disagreement.  

ts

Christopher responded "TS -- Your homophobic diatribes have to [sic] place on my posts. You will be deleted if you appear here again."

The "diatribe" in question consisted of two sentences.

And I also have been cast into outer darkness by Christopher.  After posting a  comment that Christopher didn't like he said "mishima666 is now on delete. His off-topic, homophobic, childish rants will no longer be tolerated on my posts. I've been more than tolerant with him but enough is enough."

 As of this date Christopher has deleted four of my comments from his posts.

And that brings me back to his post on Rick Warren.  Christopher basically says that Rick Warren should cover the church's budget deficit out of his own pocket.  But what he doesn't talk about is what Rick Warren already gives to the church.  

 I decided to supply that information.  The following is my comment:

"From what I've read, because of the success of his book, in 2005 he donated back to the church 25 years of his salary, and discontinued taking a salary.  In addition, he practices "reverse tithing," in which he donates 90 percent of his income and keeps 10 percent.  

So on the one hand, the 10 percent is no doubt a lot of money.  On the other hand, 90 percent is a lot to donate.  There are a lot of wealthy people who support various causes, and we don't expect them to fund the entire endeavor."

But Christopher deleted this comment.  Had he let the comment stand it would have damaged his "rant," because Warren is already doing what Christopher says he should do.

 After deleting my comment Christopher went on to say "The good news is, by the time these charlatans begin begging for money, it's usually the beginning of their end. The sooner Rick Warren joins the ranks of Ted Haggard, Jim Baker and Oral Roberts, the better."

But by this time Christopher had already known from my brief comment that Warren donates most of his money.  Yet he chooses to ignore that and continue on with his rant as if he didn't know.

Rick Warren isn't the charlatan.  Christopher is.  And I find it a telling comment on his character than when he is corrected he refuses to acknowledge the truth and continues to propagate falsehoods. 

This is what we get from one of the Chosen People:  a pattern and practice of censorship and intentional disinformation.  So the next time one of his posts appears on the cover -- as it no doubt will -- you might want to contact the editors and ask if a censoring deceiver should be part of the public face of Open Salon.

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I personally found it puzzling, but then, I rarely comment on Christopher's posts, so wasn't sure if he was in the habit of doing that. None of the comments he deleted were personal attacks or reflections on him whatever, just links and observations about the new information from several different people. I wouldn't have put him on the cover the next day, but that's me. I think at very least he should have updated his post. As I said elsewhere, there's absolutely no shame in doing that; many of us have had to do it from time to time as news progresses.
Oh my goodness. Well, I cannot abide the book, The Purpose Driven Life, for a start. So I really don't care what the author or his sheep do. They are all consenting adults as far as I know, and so, they can all herd together. Odd choice for a bunch of grown ups, but the expected one.

As for anyone posting on any such topic, I read it as editorial. But then I read the newspaper as editorial. All of it. No such thing as 'just the facts.' This is why Lauren Slater's Lying: A Metaphorical Memoir is my favorite book of the decade. xox
mishima,
There are few things that damage our credibility worse than, knowingly or unknowingly, publishing lies about people we may honestly disagree with.

As a progressive I am often deeply disturbed by the vitriol we spout. I am even more grieved by the publishing of erroneous material that simple fact checking disproves.

However, one thing certainly is worse by far: Being made aware of the facts and choosing to ignore them (or delete them), in order to continue on a crusade.

I am no fan of Rick Warren. But I can objectively admire his decisions regarding reverse tithing and salary taking at his church.

We do not have to destroy the reputations of those with whom we disagree. Doing so only makes us look malicious and petty. Doing so dishonestly rightly proves we are deceitful scoundrels.

Rated and appreciated.
I have read little of Christopher's stuff and it appears I have been lucky to have bypassed him.
I am no fan of Rick Warren, but I do not consider him an enemy. To do so "would be cutting off my nose to spite my face" as they say.

The old times of arguments based on the blame game, putting people into camps, and not at least attempting to see their point of view, no matter how much it hurts us personally, need to be over in my perspective. I can still see Rick's point of view on same-sex marriage as "wrong" but not vilify him as a human being - the same race I am a part of. If I work to understand where his perspective comes from, I may actually make headway in mutual respect versus continual hatred being spewed from both sides of the equation.

I applaud your attempt to bring this to Christopher's attention. While I don't applaud "meta" posts (and I have done a few), I have come to believe there is a time and a place on occasion. This seems to be one of those times.

If you can not handle two sides of an argument, then you don't really seek to understand nor do you move an issue forward towards any real hope of solution.
Dennis writes: "However, one thing certainly is worse by far: Being made aware of the facts and choosing to ignore them (or delete them), in order to continue on a crusade."

Frankly, if this were just a pissing match between Christopher and me, I wouldn't have bothered writing about it. But his practice of banning people from commenting on his posts and deleting comments that inconveniently contradict his thesis goes way beyond that.

The word "integrity" comes to mind. I see all sorts of posts around here that I disagree with. And sometimes I find posts in which I believe that the author has played fast and loose with the facts, and when that happens I debate the author on that point. But I have never before seen a situation in which the author simply deletes contrary opinions as if they didn't exist.

Recently on OS we have had a number of discussions about whose posts get selected for the cover, and why. I believe that people whose posts are freqently selected for the cover have a special responsibility to the community to go the extra mile in making sure to the best of their abilities that their posts are accurate.

Dennis: "I am no fan of Rick Warren. But I can objectively admire his decisions regarding reverse tithing and salary taking at his church."

There are all sorts of reasons why people might not like Rick Warren. They might not like his views on homosexuality. They might not like the fact that he's a Christian, or whatever. That said, if they're going to dislike him it should at least be for legitimate reasons and not illegitimate reasons.
Oh! I didn't even know of his views on homosexuality, but it is another example of the sheep mentality. I just found the book obsessive and driving.
Hi, mish,

Let me start by saying I did disagree with one statement from your post.

“Rick Warren isn't the charlatan. Christopher is.”

I think, perhaps, they’re both charlatans? Just a thought … I know Warren is, and from what you’ve said here, perhaps Christopher is, as well, but I am not familiar enough with his writing to say. I did just check out the post to which you refer and there were only four comments, all posted December 31, and one of them is from Christopher.


You write, “In one 30 day period Christopher had no fewer than 13 posts on the cover, something unheard of for the average OS member.”

WOW! And I don’t even recognize his name! Of course, I quit taking seriously most posts featured on the cover a long time ago, so I basically pay little attention to who’s there.

You write, “So the next time one of his posts appears on the cover -- as it no doubt will -- you might want to contact the editors …”

Unfortunately, I’ve not had particularly good luck in terms of contact with editors; I wonder how likely it is that they would even read a message sent to them about this. Do you have some info about that?


You write, “…if they're going to dislike him it should at least be for legitimate reasons and not illegitimate reasons.”

That’s certainly true. And, as you point out, there are plenty of legitimate reasons. I may not always succeed, but when I do write about public figures, I primarily focus on their actions and words and attempt to find many sources of information because some sources may be incomplete while others will provide better context, etc. Sometimes, in the course of researching a post, I find information that basically nullifies the main point and that post is discarded.

At any rate, HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and yours!
I'm not getting in a pissing match with anyone. I have never deleted a comment, but thats my way of doing business. Deleting is fine, if you want to. But posting something, then not manning up is bullshit. I am a bleeding heart liberal now, an forever. But that doesn't condone what he did!
I think di Spirito gets a lot of covers because he hits two things the editors look for: current topics (not *war* or anything, but 'newsy' things that catch people's attention, like Warren and the JFK purported photo) and gay issues. I personally think the gay (and transsexual and other gender) issues are good to feature because they get short shrift in the MSM ('twas even more so in the past), but they are a bit out of proportion here. The catchy-current stuff is inevitable, especially for a quickly changing cover.

I don't suppose the editors would care about the integrity question you raise (they can't possibly check all the posts, let alone the comments, let alone the disappearing comments), but I had expected (vaguely) to see a follow-up cover post by di S. or somebody about the news that the JFK picture had been discredited. Well, by then it was yesterday's news, I guess.

As Stellaa points out, this venue is free for us and we have no power or influence - and those who don't like it, should they disappear, like deleted comments, won't be noticed, I imagine. There's too many people here (AND IN THE WORLD!) as it is...

DON'T YOU DISAPPEAR THO, DAMMIT. I disagree with you FTTT, but you're always calm & reasonable, so that *discussion* with you doesn't become *fraught*. That's rare.
Myriad writes: "I personally think the gay (and transsexual and other gender) issues are good to feature because they get short shrift in the MSM ('twas even more so in the past), but they are a bit out of proportion here."

Speaking of out of proportion, two cover posts were actually political ads for gay marriage -- "here's our new video, and here's the web site where you can contribute." I can see having posts on the topic of gay marriage, but thought having what were in effect political ads on the cover to be over the top.

Myriad: "I don't suppose the editors would care about the integrity question you raise (they can't possibly check all the posts . . . "

That's one reason why I wish it were possible to get some feedback to the editors. Not just for that issue, but simply to draw their attention to great posts and fine authors that aren't getting noticed. I've mailed them with cover suggestions, but I never hear anything back.
You said, "...I wish it were possible to get some feedback to the editors. Not just for that issue, but simply to draw their attention to great posts and fine authors that aren't getting noticed..."

The new editor's effort, asking some of the more prominent OSers to make lists of their Top Ten, looks like some possible move in this direction. I've been saying that I think it should have been handled differently (more openly, tho I think that was an unintentional thing), but perhaps it's the beginning of a new approach. Some of the people here who read widely among the posts find neglected gems and it would be nice if there were some mechanism for bringing them to people's attention. (Obviously emailing the editors isn't it!) There's enough space on the front page that the editors could have a box in which some suggested titles (not the whole posts, but linked titles) for items not fitting the FP criteria could be listed. Listed by whom, tho... I am not clear on what the editors do beyond picking a handful of FP posts. If that's all (I'm sure there's a whole bunch of other stuff I simply am ignorant of), then they should have time to pick out a handful of interesting *other* type posts - most of us do that in the course of a few minutes reviewing the Recent listings... Or they could get some of the readers (not necessarily, tho not excluding, the big EP/FP posters) to make these suggestions... I know! - I'll email them with this suggestion immediately...
There was a cover post next day, Myriad, here.
Okay good for you, Kathy. I missed that.
An interesting analysis. I was having trouble in the middle seeing why these issues were related—it seemed like kind of a mixed bag—but I'm glad I read to the end because I do think you tied it all back together. Thanks for the insightful and informative commentary, as always.
Rick Warren gives me the creepy crawlies.
[Doug scratches head] I thought us Jews were the "Chosen People." Ah well, after all the pogroms and genocides and expulsions and such, I guess it did seem pretty doubtful.
He also recently made the cover with his take on an article in the Texas Observer which, although I'm all against capital punishment AND I am a Texan -- didn't really get to the heart of the article. It was about a certain psychiatrist who skewed test results to qualify mentally disabled convicts for the death penalty. He made it sound like the entire legislature and court system here is trying to kill mentally disabled people. (there are a few, but not all!)

I didn't bother to comment on his blog since I know his reaction to people who disagree with him.