Though the cover page of Open Salon assures me that "YOU MAKE THE HEADLINES," I never suspected that "top rated" item this morning would be a post accusing me of "despicable low behavior," written by well-respected and long-time OS member Catherine Forsythe.
The despicable low behavior described in this post apparently refers to a post that I published last week: The Current State of Spam on Open Salon. I suspect that anyone who wanted to read the post already has, but if you have not, feel free to click on the link.
But for those who have already read the post, or don't want to spend the time, I'll give you a quick summary. The post describes my experience as an OS "spam cop," one of the people who volunteer to delete spam accounts on OS. Based on that experience, I then discuss the volume of spam on OS, talking in particular about the large volume of spam accounts that might not be readily visible to most OS members. I then offered suggestions for ways to do a better job of controlling spam, and suggested that those who are concerned about spam might want to contact OS management to voice their support for better spam control.
Out of a fairly long post, the portion devoted to my description of my experience consists of two short paragraphs, for a total of four sentences.
This, apparently, is what Catherine interprets as "self aggrandizement." even though I use the plural "spam cops," as well as phrases such as "When a spam cop observes a spam post, comment, or link account, he or she can delete the account using a special utility." So the post clearly acknowledges both the existence and work of other spam cops.
But this obviously was not enough for Catherine. She takes umbrage over the fact that I have talked about my experience as a spam cop with others:
"Nevertheless, he makes it well known that he is among those managing the spam problem and stresses his prominent contribution. He had made in known in a comment on one of my articles; he has made in known in his own article; and he makes it known in private messages."
Yes, the horror! The horror! What a terrible person I must be to mention my spam cop experience in a single comment, and in private messages! And then to write about it in a post! To Catherine this is like Clark Kent letting everyone know that he is Superman. But for me, this was simply a matter of talking about my experience on OS, and part of my experience is, in fact, being a spam cop and deleting spam. No one ever told me it was supposed to be a secret.
Concerning the contributions of other spam cops, as Catherine well knows, there is no way that I can know how much spam other people are deleting. All I know is that someone is deleting spam, but I don't know who or how much. All I know is that whenever I logged in, there was more to delete.
And that was the problem I described in my post. I mean, you could recruit Einstein, Jesus Christ, and President Obama to be spam cops, and they could delete spam day and night, and you still would not be controlling the spam in any significant sense.
And I don't necessarily even know who all the spam cops are. Nobody ever sent me a list, and for all I know there could be ten spam cops. Stated in terms of popular culture, I don't know who the spam cops are any more than the inhabitants of Battlestar Galactica know who the Final Five Cylons are.
So the bottom line is that what she calls "stressing my own contribution" comes from the fact that there's no way for me to know what anyone else's contribution is. Spam is either deleted or not, and if it's deleted there's no way to know who deleted it. Unlike in the movie Apocalypse Now, there is no "spam death card" that we place on deleted spam in order to identify our "kills."
The sad thing about this little controversy -- a controversy that Catherine has manufactured for reasons known only to her -- is that it is so unnecessary. After my "spam post" was published, I heard through the grapevine that Catherine was upset with it. I was sorry about that, because it was not my intent to offend anyone. And I told a couple of people in private messages to tell her that I would be happy to discuss the post with her. Whether those messages got to her I don't know.
I do know that she never contacted me. Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but when a person is in a mind to accuse someone else of "despicable low behavior," that person should at least make an attempt to resolve the issue privately. This was not done. And if someone is going to accuse another OS member of despicable low behavior in a post, the polite thing would be to let the target know that the post is coming. That was not done, and instead I ended up finding out about the post through private messages written by other people. And then Catherine closes comments on her post, and I am unable to respond to the accusations in a comment on her post.
As I mentioned at the start, Catherine is a well-respected member of OS. But in this one case, I feel that she has handled the situation poorly, creating an unnecessary controversy that could have been handled with private communication.
And I guess the lesson for me is not to offend a popular person on OS, or you'll get torn a new orifice in public on the front page. The last time I looked at her post there were 59 "thumbs up." And to those who rated that post and thus kept it on the front page, I would only ask "rated for what?"


Salon.com
Comments
As far as I can tell, I think she feels that I inappropriately trumpeted my "contribution" to the spam cop program, when in fact she was the one who was doing most of the work. But as I said in the post, there's no way I could know what she was doing.
But really, does it matter who was deleting what? The point of my post was that the spam cop program is not enough to control spam.
Yeah, that's how I took it. Now you're being accused of self-aggrandizement, but I'll say for the record: if there's an OSer who doesn't bother with tooting their own horn it is you. I'm guessing a lot of the people rating that post currently in the Top Rated feed don't even know what it's about; some of them are even the same people who commented favorably on your original article discussing the spam problem.
I can't tell three quarters of the time who it is that is offended and what for!
The better people here just need to endure temporary (I hope) confusion till the spring solstice (when is that again) when annually all things become clearer.
I recommend NyQuil® till then.
No M, it doesn't matter a hill of imaginary hashish fed horse-shit!
God, I love alliteration!
I don't think that you did anything "low" or "despicable".
I think Catherine has every right to be upset - but she is taking it out on you, who was operating in the dark, instead of on management, who know all the spam cops and probably have some notion of the volume of FREE WORK they're doing. I think management should post a big kissy thank-you to all of you, by name........and both you and C have made suggestions for addressing the spam problem in ways other than having volunteers use their own time on it, and it seems that those suggestions have been ignored (I don't remember yours, but C said in her post she could rustle up some resources to tackle it, again for free).
I do remember your making the point that OS is basically a spam site with a few posters swimming in the spammy sea, and I was a little shocked at that...and concerned about our future. I wish management would take further advantage of you-all, that is, listen and implement your suggestions, and furthermore PUBLICLY AND PRIVATELY THANK YOU FOR THE FREE WORK YOU PUT IN TO MAKE THE SPAM SCENE A LITTLE MORE BEARABLE.
I personally thank you (and Catherine, and whoever else). I volunteer nada, being burnt-out (and know nada about computers except how to turn on and type), so I'm impressed by your-all community spirit.
I hope Catherine feels a little better about it all now that you've posted this... (And you have been, as always, a perfect gentleman...)
The bar for "low" and "despicable" is being set pretty low -- like about one inch off the ground.
nanatehay writes: "He has been the target of a very public assault on his character . . . "
Yeah. I mean, if that post had slipped through the queue and got 5 or 10 thumbs up I would have let it slide. But when it's on the front page for hours, is the "top rated," and has 60 thumbs up, I feel like I have to respond. But I find this whole situation very distasteful, and take no pleasure in saying critical things about anyone.
Joisey writes: "I viewed your original post as one simply passing-along some information."
I think that's how 99.9 percent of the people took it. I'm aware of only one person who took it otherwise.
I am sorry you had to defend your very rational post, and thank you for everything you have done to defeat the spam bots.
I was actually agreeing with Mish, but I'll stand on my comment here.
Love is all there is!
This is really the stupidest thing ever on OS. Mishima wrote an article that informed everyone who uses this site what he has observed, from his experience doing a service that helps all of us and - and it hurt someone's feelings?
That's like saying, well, I'm so sorry I was directing traffic and while doing so didn't realize you were also directing traffic. But look, I'm here directing traffic. "You're stealing my traffic jam!" . "But I'm just trying to direct traffic." "You're a depicable low life!"
Really? I would address Catherine directly, but I can't because she has to just control the traffic jam apparently.
How can it possibly be that there is an issue about who is controlling spam? Really??
Catherine Forsythe is a great writer and a great member of this community. It makes me sad to see someone I respect erase so much good will and good work through a self serving post that makes accusations and doesn't allow any discussion or comment.
There was nothing said about her or her work or whatever. I'm a bit horrified that her whiny little rant is getting rated - but...I trust that she is smart enough to reply to this response. And really - put on your adult diapers and stop weeping when someone leaves for five minutes.
I have my Depends on so I can, once again, thank mishima for letting me know that this is a spamming place that just happens to have a few blogs.
Thank you, sir.
Hopefully it's not erased. Everyone makes unfortunate decisions, and I am reminded of the old saying "write injuries in dust, benefits in stone." Most OS controversies are forgotten the next day; hopefully this one will be.
Emma writes: "I'm just questioning the behavior of some of her so-called friends in whipping this into a frenzy."
I have a feeling that there were things going on behind the scenes of which I was not aware. The response that I got from the post, both in comments and private messages, was overwhelmingly positive. I believe that the great majority of OS members just want the spam to stop, and they don't care how that happens or who does what. Frankly, they shouldn't have to care about that.
The volunteer spam cop program was a good idea, and it does have a positive effect. But it's not enough.
I look at it this way: let's say that the neighborhood dogs come into your yard and poop on it. There are two ways to control that. The first way is to go into the yard every day and scoop up the poop. The second way is to build a fence so that the dogs can't get to the yard.
The spam cop program is all about scooping up the poop. It improves the venue, but it's not a solution, and it takes a lot of time and effort. My post was about building a fence -- with no offense intended to the other poop-scoopers. We can delete spam all day and night, but the solution is in keeping it from entering the site in the first place.
Lezlie
I think jane smithie might be on to something when she says C is frustrated by the lack of response from OS management. And I'm saying I think all of you should have been recognized by OS management for your generous volunteering of your time.
"Thank you for deleting the spam!"
:-)
On another note, could you let the spam come back for maybe an hour? I need a team shirt and some running shoes.
nana is one too!!
Yea!! There you go!! To show the both of you, C and M, I've rated ya both!!!!
Ed I Tor can go screw herself too!!! The whole lot of you can go screw yourself and when you do, get it on PornTube, it'll go Viral!!!!!!!
See ya all in Hell,
I'm outta here!!!!
It's been real, it's been fun, it ain't never been real fun!!! PFFFFFFFFFFFT!!
Your friend,
Bob X. Williams
P.S.
AND SCREW THE HORSE YOU ALL RODE IN ON!!!!
YEA!
YEA!
PEACE OUT
Nah, I'm just kidding on the real fun, john reminded me, I love spam!!!
There, that's it, I'M GONE!!!!!
~flips everyone a half of a peace sign~
I also rated your previous post, Mishima666, because it was a post which explained what was happening behind the scenes in deleting spam. I thank you as well as any spam cop equally for the pro bono work you have been doing - to fight an up hill battle.
I regret seeing what happened today - especially in fighting against the same cause. Your post explains to me what has been rumored, but I am a stranger to rumors. I am grateful to you and to Catherine as well as any other(s) who has/have given of his and her time. Thank you, thank you!
Peace and Rated.
It seems to me that you could have contacted mishima666 directly rather than throw gasoline on the fires that alight on OS yet again, given your stated objections to conflict. Instead, you close comments and don't brooch any conversation about your opinion of what he said. That seems unfair to me.
I've worked for free on other websites myself. It's often a lot of work and the people who do the work for free get a lot of grief from other participants who are unburdened by volunteering to make a site a better place to participate.
Seeking to diminish mishima666 isn't going to elevate you, no matter who you find to agree with you. It just makes OS a more inhospitable place, which I think runs counter to your reasons for volunteering here.
Thanks for reducing spam around here.
You see, I understand you were just playin' around, but the horse, he just doesn't get it. Course, if you were to apologize...
[Tink Laughs]
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my horse don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.
**Points to his butt**
**And runs out once more**
Catherine thinks that I wanted to be recognized for my efforts in controlling spam. In fact, I wanted people to recognize that my efforts, her efforts, and everyone else's efforts to defeat spam are inadequate to the task -- that no matter how hard we work, our tools and strategies are insufficient. I take no pleasure in being known as a diligent worker in a lost cause.
i suspect os management must creep up to 'anonymous' on bended knee and beg for assistance. they have the expertise to track down and bomb the spammers. volunteer maidens are called for, to be offered to the hackers as a reward.
You've nailed the problem with the mutual admiration types who rust to judgment and pick fights/make foul accusations against others all the while demanding apologies. They don't bother to verify facts since it's so much easier to poison OS with their venom. Matt Paust/ClarkK was in the forefront of this smear on Mishima based on nothing more than a desire to avenge someone who did not need avenging. Although he is a former reporter, he doesn't seem able (or willing) to verify facts before launching into attack mode. Of course, his real agenda is to pit one side of OS against the other and he's been very successful. Given that, he'll be continuing on his "tempest in a teapot" tactics.
Actually, I gave the spam deletion to the programmer. I didn't even know there were spam copS.
;)
Rated for OS (O-WKA opinionated salaciousness on the 'net).
Sincere thanks to BOTH of you.
R
My sense of disgust exists on at least two levels. One issue is the clearly unreasonable accusations it throws at you. The extreme unreasonableness of the entire post creates a possibility for all kinds of suppositions about its source, and since none of them are respectful, I’ll decline to invest in any of them. Mental health may be in question, though.
But my disgust goes beyond that to another issue, of which this is a perfect example, and that I think should be addressed by the “POWERS-THAT-BE” here on OS. When favoritism reaches a level that a post of such poor quality, inaccuracy and pointlessness takes up space on the cover and warrants so many “ratings”, then favoritism has become as big a problem as the spam itself. At least much of the spam is actually selling product. While that ridiculous post was taking up space, time and ratings in the feed, far more worthy posts were ignored and are ignored regularly. What exactly is the objective of editors when this occurs?
How did that post add value to OS? I agree with femme forte; "I call crap." And I call crap on others trying to excuse the only behavior that was, in fact, low and despicable.
I rated your original post, and I’m rating this one, as well.
In the second place: on a site that often seems overrun by childish flame wars, THANK YOU for adult, reasoned response to a vitriolic post. I had always enjoyed reading Catherine Forsythe's posts and I was disheartened by her last one.
Assuming, of course, her post was about you, which we don't know for certain. I should think that if Catherine wishes to maintain her credibility on this site, she at the very least owes us an explanation.
I also knew that Mishima had written to the Salon editors but felt hampered that this discussion was not out in the open for others to discuss, since it affects us all. I don't know to what extent my own efforts played into anything, but I encouraged him to make a public post. It wasn't something he seemed to be rushing to do, but I insisted that it was something that really should be spoken about in the open. He sounded hesitant about the idea, but eventually seemed to relent. But I just want to make the point that, from where I stood, the post was anything but an attempt to thump his chest.
I know that Salon itself has the final say on what happens. It's not really for us to say. But then again, we all contribute to content here and we all have an investment in the place, so it seemed reasonable to me that we might have opinions. And it's a very smart group, so someone might have a bright idea. I'm glad Mishima spoke up and offered us such useful data. It's not the first time I've seen him do such an analysis, and I think it's one of the great skills he brings to the table in this complex community.
This is also especially odd in the context of one other odd occurrence. A couple weeks ago, Linda Seccaspina wrote something that said something about Catherine single-handedly holding spam at bay. I wrote her privately and suggested she should be careful about the wording because there was one or more others helping, too. Mishima had not gone public and I didn't want to mention him if he wasn't going to mention himself. I thought I had worded my remark in a way that wouldn't try to diminish Catherine's contribution, which I imagined to be on the same order of magnitude with Mishima's. Linda seemed to be feel she was just trying to be supportive of Catherine, and as far as I can tell just didn't know there were others. No biggie. It all seemed reasonable to me.
But here's my point: It would have been possible to conclude from what Linda had said that Catherine was claiming credit for work that was not entirely hers. I didn't conclude that. It seemed obvious that people, even grateful and generous people, just don't take every moment of every day thanking everyone they are helped by or that they collaborate with. I didn't infer, nor do I think Mishima did, that Catherine was saying she did it all. I think I (and probably Mishima) just assumed that she, like Mishima, was feeling the weight of the world on their shoulders just out of exhaustion, not out of self-aggrandizement. And why not? Would there really be any point in accusing here, given that she was obviously just doing what she could in a complex situation? So there was an opportunity to take her remarks badly, and I/we did not. That's what makes it so odd that Catherine's remarks seem so pointedly focused on Mishima. Why are we not all just focused on the spam?
I'm sorry, Catherine, that your feelings got hurt, but from where I sit, Mishima did nothing to cause it. This seems simply a misunderstanding and one where the cause, if any, is the spammers creating a really bad situation that others have to pay for in terms of money and aggravation. I suspect the real reason Mishima's text focused mostly on himself is not that he was pumping his own contribution as that he is meticulous in not making claims he cannot support, so he only had data about himself. It would be a shame to take that personally. My experience has been in conversation with him that he's never suggested it was only him and he's gone out of his way to say otherwise.
But if somehow there is personal blame to be distributed, I'll take my share of it for whatever effect my prodding may have had. And for whatever confusion my remark to Linda may have caused. My entire intent was to say there was more than one hero, and that doesn't diminish the good work of anyone.
I'm grateful to both Catherine and Mishima—and to any other still-hidden souls who might be doing the same—for their efforts in this regard.
F- TO THE LOT OF YOU!! :D
~smooch~ Love and fuck to the lot of you!! Spam patrol an Ed I Tor to spam contrl! Yes, I've been drinking!!
Fuck you to Bonnie and Nanna!! You both need to fuck each othger!! :D
RAteD! Days ago!!
This is why people tiptoe around Type As.
I think it's fair to say, you and I have had our fair share of disagreements here about almost everything, but I never felt as tho either of us became disagreeable -- tho no doubt we are both persons who hold strong opinions.
As for the spam, I'm no techie, but I have an idea how to rid the site of it. Just turn spam-hunting into a video game -- say The Legend of Spamalot with characters like Sir Spamisnot -- that appeals to adolescent males, and offer a reward such as virtual gold nuggets, and I guarantee the spam will be gone within 24 hours.