Fingerlakeswanderer specifically wrote to me and asked for my comments on her blog post entitled: To the Men of OS-- and since I tend to write whole posts as replies, here it is.
What is Sex Like for a Man?
Upfront Disclaimer: While this is entitled ostensibly for all men, I can really only speak about my own feelings and what its like for me, and presume that I share a reasonable set of qualities with other men. Also I'm framing my comments more relative to the larger arch of my life, rather than in the more specific confines of my current or previous relationships. Also as I interpreted Fingerlakeswander's questions, she is more interested in the sexual act and the immediate feelings and thoughts rather than the larger relationship aspects, except as they relate to the sexual act.
For me, sex (the sex act) is a lot of things rolled-up into one-- and not always the same set of things either-- ranging from the simple desire for release ("to get my rocks off", to be blunt) or stress release, or simple human contact-- but not necessarily deeply emotional, on the level of going to the hairdresser let's say, friendly and amicable, but not deeply emotional-- all the way to total connection and attachment to someone I'm extremely fond of.
Sometimes sex is a conquest (either mentally or physically). sometimes its a gift (in either direction). Sometimes its a mutual sharing. Sometimes I just want to "get mine" and get out of there.
I am not a woman so I can only go on what I've read, heard and been told-- its my understanding that women don't really "get" how guys can have detached sex when for them its such a spiritual and emotional and connective act. I also understand that women dislike being thought of as a "sexual object" rather than as a "person" and get upset when they think the men they're with treat them the one way or the other.
For men-- for me at least-- there is a duality involved-- (A) woman as a sexual attraction, and (B) woman as person and being. And my level of emotional connection (attachment or detachment) is probably proportional to the levels of (A) and (B) involved.
There have been occasions in my life when sex was freely offered (to me by a woman) with no strings attached, no emotional attachments, no commitments, no expectations other than the enjoyment of the moment, or obligations of the future. Sometimes it was with a woman (or women) that I only recently met. Sometimes it was with a woman (or women) that I had known for some times (i.e. were friends or acquaintances).
In the case of the former (a woman I hardly knew), sex (from my perspective) was much freer and without restraint and I felt more able to do what I wanted and use her in the ways that I wanted and felt good to me. (Which is not to say that I did nothing to reciprocate-- you wanted my own perspective, remember? Not hers) And "use" is probably the best operative word here-- not meant quite as coldly or callously as "using a tissue", but more along the lines of "used as a hairdresser"-- how much do you think about your hairdresser after you leave her shop? Or worry whether what she thought of you because your hair was dirty and she had to shampoo it?
On other occasions, with women I had already known, including "fuck buddies" and "friends with benefits" arrangements, sex was still somewhat freer but more constrained. Since there was an additional layer of.... "respect" is not quite the right word, and yet its close-- understanding and restraint might be a better choice of terms-- thought of future interactions with that individual so more care / concern to do the things she likes and such. Though the liaison was still casual, and both of us felt fairly free to express ourselves sexually (especially since that was a large part of the nature of the relationship), there was a modicum of restraint that probably wouldn't have been there if it had been a casual one-night fling. (And when I mention limits and restraints, I mean it goes both ways-- and in both circumstances).
But when I am having sex with someone I really care about-- that's when I feel the most limited and most constrained. You would think it to be the opposite, but its not. There is the knowledge that I have to live with that person-- be in a committed relationship and interact with them day to day. Many ideas or fantasies or desires that I might have with casual liaisons I wouldn't even bring up with my committed partner. And I am more concerned and attuned to her pleasure and with "pleasing" and "performing" and less concerned with just "getting off".
As a result, I think from a pure sexual point-of-view, the sex is much better with the casual partner. Though certainly someone you have sex with often is going to have more familiarity to it, there is less restraint and feelings of constraint and more raw rutting and its more primitive-- physical and earthy and visceral.
Sex with a committed partner is more emotional, more communicative and less "sexual". And as a result, it loses a lot of that original "zing" which was present back when she was still in the "casual" category and sex was more primitive. Over time its easy to get in a rut-- or not to rut at all. Especially when she has the opinion that "I should want her just for her and not be attracted to lingerie or other trappings". That may be a female point-of-view but it certainly is not a male perspective-- at least not mine. I love my wife to death but she just doesn't realize how much she is killing our relationship on the alter of principled notions.
Part of what a man-- meaning at least me-- wants is something "new", novelty-- a new experience, a new conquest-- a new smell, a new feel. I don't know how to put this delicately so I'll just be blunt-- there is an ecstatic feeling I just can't describe in words whenever I plunge into a new vagina for the very first time. And feel myself sliding inside it, and feeling its warmth and its grip, its smoothness and silkiness and warm, velvety depths. Its like the first day of spring and christmas and new years and a fresh warm comforter just out of the dryer-- a bearskin rug, a walk through the grass in bare feet-- stretching out in the sun and the warmest, bestest feeling ever in the world-- all wrapped up into one delicious moment. Its physical, its sensual, its overwhelming, it sucks you in at the same time you feel compelled to push your way in... all in the space of one tiny moment.
You only get to feel that once or twice with any particular woman. After that its other aspects that make the sex exciting. Experience, knowledge of certain spots or techniques, etc.
And yet I feel emotionally bonded to my wife. I love her implicitly and without reservation. I have never cheated on her, not because I have a problem with it, but because she's asked me not to, and its part of my commitment to her. But that doesn't make those feelings and longings for something new go away. In fact it only serves to make them stronger, hungrier, lustier. Sometimes I do resort to looking at porn. And it helps a little. Though I'm not sure in the long run whether it helps in the right ways. It satisfies the lusts of the moment to a degree, but it doesn't have much effect (one way or the other) with relations with my partner.
At one point I tried to get her interested, to share my view and enter my world, but as much as I tried, she wasn't willing to go there. She did try a little, but I think it was more of an affordance than a true desire to experience something new. For my part, I do my best to try to relate to her viewpoint that it should be her I'm interested in and not the trappings, etc. I guess we meet somewhere in the middle, and I know that neither one of us is truly happy with our sexual relations. Some moments are better than others of course, but we often go awhile between moments.
What can you do about that? Men are what they are, they want what they want, and they like what they like. Women are the same. Its unfortunate that the commitment that bonds people together is often the very thing that drives them apart later. Is the answer to step out? To not be committed? To have an open relationship? To live polyamorously? How can you assuage one partner's goals and desires while keeping true to the other's?
I sometimes think that society ought to invent and permit "sex holidays" where partners can go away for a weekend, meet up with someone, shag their brains out with no worries or commitments and then come home fresh and relaxed and ready to face their partners again. Would that solve the problem? Who knows. But at least it would be out in the open and socially acceptable, and marriages would be less likely to be ruined over it.
Sex for men-- or just me, who knows-- is a lot of things. Largely physical, but not necessarily without an emotional component. Its just that the two are experienced separately though sometimes jointly, and one is good and satisfying irrespective of the other. Sure its nice when both are present, but sometimes its good to just fuck without regrets.


Salon.com
Comments
Are you shocked at what I said? Well, women are people too, you know? Built of the same things only they are made to condition themselves in certain ways for their own good I guess.
I'm especially grateful for the bits about the need for 'newness' and the thirst for plunging into different vaginas, how it feels, why you still want it. I get it! I understand that! Heck, I HAVE that with new cocks, too. Why hasn't anyone told me that before?! It makes sense.
I'm struggling with a new boyfriend who tells me he wants a life of polyamory. I love him, but I don't love that idea. What I can't handle about it is... please don't fall in love with the new one. Don't let yourself have 2 boring vaginas (or more!); I want to be the primary/ reliable/ go-to/ trusty/ favorite/ every-day vagina for my man.
I'm not opposed to a guy's lust for variety, but I am strongly opposed to his wish for multiple committments and on top of that wishing that I, too, would like to commit to and sex up those girls as well.
I would be all-for sex holidays. Go ahead. Don't bring me back any diseases or babies to take care of, and I'm good with it. I don't want long-term girlfriends, though.
Gratefully rated also for the naughty bits that made me tingle a little while I was reading that. :o)
@Rolling - I do imagine that sex would be much more enjoyable for both genders if there were not so many expectations and constraints placed on it. Why, for example, should a man feel *less* able to ask his partner for specific favors or techniques than a casual encounter? Why should a man be *more* inhibited with his regular partner? Reason would probably suggest the opposite, but I think (at least for me) that is not the case. Probably its the same for women. I know that my experiences with "fuck-buddies" and "friends with benefits" arrangements have been very satisfying, both sexually and to an extent emotionally as well. I don't doubt for a moment that the same is true for women.
Ask any sex worker-- they'll all tell you the same-- what is the number one reason a man utilizes their services? To get something they're not getting from their wives and girlfriends-- whatever it is. A blowjob, a thoughtless fuck, some company, a conversation-- whatever it is, they're there to fill some hole in their lives that their loved one will not or cannot fill.
No, I am not shocked by what you said-- I think sex *should* be freely given and accepted. I think human culture lost a truly magnificent aspect of expression and acceptance with the death of the free love movement (all of them). The pendulum will likely swing the other way again eventually, it always seems to go in cycles from one extreme to the other.
I wish modern society didn't denigrate sex and sexuality to the degree that it does. Sex is good and wholesome. Its expression is good and cathartic. Attempts at repression distorts people and it always comes out someplace else where it isn't wanted. You can't suppress human nature, you can only pervert it.
I can't speak for other men, but for myself, I think it would be the ultimate gift-- emotionally, sensually, and in every other connective way-- if my wife somehow understood this aspect and was somehow able to bring home other women now and then that she'd figure I'd like-- to share our bed, to play with for a night or two-- to let me play with as I'd like to-- who would then go away.
She could come back now and again-- it isn't like it has to be one time only and then never again-- but the point is that she is only for sex, only for pleasure, and only as a gift from my wife to me.
Even just the *thought* of this, while I'm writing, gives me goosebumps and excitement.
And the thing is-- with variety, my wife, from a sexual perspective, goes back into the variety bucket-- and sex with her becomes a positive experience again, and I get to try new things I've learned from the other women on her, etc.
And my sexuality is not threatened by another man. If that's what she wanted, I'd be happy to help her arrange it. And either be there with them, or let them have their space. Whatever she wanted and makes her happy.
But as much as that idea excites me and turns me on-- it won't happen. My wife doesn't think like that, doesn't have those thoughts, doesn't even realize that other people might. And if it ever did cross her mind she would dismiss it quickly as repellant, repugnant, immoral, and tacky. She's just not that type of person.
I know that about her and accepted it a long time ago. I love her very much and wish-- I wish I wish I wish I wish-- I could have this conversation and relationship with her-- but I'll hit the lottery-- twice in one day-- before it could ever even be a speck of possibility. It makes me sad but I do my best to be satisfied with the other aspects of our life and find other ways to connect to her and be happy in our relationship. For the physical stuff- there's the occasional sex, and porn. I wish it was more, but there are so many other good aspects to our relationship, I'm sticking with what I've got and I'm happy about it.
I can't speak for my husband in this, but I will say that I do what I can to keep things freah.
Rated!
But I also think your perspective is very much colored by the particular nature of the sexual relationship you have in your marriage. You are honest about it not being truly satisfying for either of you as well as explaining the specific reasons it's not for you. An LTR with someone with whom you are more sexually compatible might be quite quite different, don't you think?
Many people (of both genders) feel at least somewhat the way you do in their LT relationships. But not all, not by a long shot. I've been involved with men who've had many lovers (some bisexual) and others who've had few. Interestingly, all of them said that for the most part, they preferred sex with someone they were in love with and committed to. (Note: not all of them were in love with or committed to me -- far from it! -- so this wasn't a matter of saying what they thought I wanted or needed to hear, trust me. It was in the context of frank discussions like this one about what sex is like for each of us)
As a woman, I actually feel more sexual and open with a long time lover. Not only has he figured out how my dials and switches work, but I feel safe and cared for, and can let myself go in the bedroom more and more. That's what most women I know report, as well.
So if you are with a woman for whom this is not true...well, maybe it's time to open this up for discussion, at least between the two of you, if not with a professional who can help. I don't understand giving up and saying, "well this is all it's going to be" without making that effort to see if things can change. No matter how great the other parts of your relationship are, this sexual disappointment and lack of mutual connection will wear at things over time. (as I've seen it do with too many friends who ended up divorcing...or in marriages with increasing distance and even hostility)
I love my partner of 10 years very very much for many reasons, but honestly, if we didn't have a great sexual connection (which BTW, has only strengthened with time), I would have re-thought things along the way. After all, this is the one thing that (if you agree to monogamy) you only do with your partner and which you can't satisfy otherwise or with someone else.
It's also very possible your wife is more open than you think, if the problem is approached with her own satisfaction in mind as well. You may have to lead on improving things, but if she feels there's something to be gained for her, she may gladly follow. Along those lines, I'd say be prepared to find out that her own unmet wishes are not what you think...!
As a woman, I actually feel more sexual and open with a long time lover. Not only has he figured out how my dials and switches work, but I feel safe and cared for, and can let myself go in the bedroom more and more. That's what most women I know report, as well.
Possibly. I'm not sure how I can answer that without painting myself into a corner, one way or another.
We have had many discussions-- mostly with me trying to move things forward. I have simply accepted at this point that I married someone on the opposite end of the kink scale. Whereas I have a purity rating of probably 204,286%, she on the other hand would probably only eek out at around 2 or 3%. I'm just an old horndog and she's definitely not. I like life and laughter and spontaneity and playfulness and a willingness to try new things and don't hold much back as being "dirty" or "wrong"-- she on the other hand is very reserved and sex is serious business. When we were still new together, she did more, ventured out past her limits, and it was fun for me, but I realize now looking back, like standing in the middle of the freeway for her.
And of course the fact that we're talking about it and focusing on this particular aspect puts it under the magnifying glass and makes it seem bigger and worse than it really is.
Both my wife and I make over six figures and are well set and secure in our relationship. Further I can happily attest that she easily fits my ideal somatype so I have no problem in getting a thrill simply by looking at her when she thinks I'm not looking.
She doesn't realize how well she flips my triggers and just naturally gets my motor revving. She's willing to have sex pretty much anytime, and she's anything but frigid. But we have a wide gap in overall experiences and what's wild and exciting to her is tame and old hat for me.
I'm not saying this to brag, but to simply point out the realities between us. I have tried my best to talk to her, discuss these things, tried to gently feel her out to find out what else she might be open for, etc. And, at least at this point, I've reached the conclusion that she doesn't want to be any more experimental or go beyond her own little boundries and feels like we can either play within that scope or else she won't participate.
I'm really not sure what else I can do to move things forward-- though I'm open to any suggestion anyone might have to make.
I think I might have to add to my maxim "Don't sleep with anybody _less_ kinky than yourself" either :)
There are a few simple (and tasteful) things she can easily do to spice things up, and I've told her what they are, but she tells me I'm supposed to want and appreciate her just for being her, which shuts it all down. (And I do appreciate her for who she is, honest I do).
That's it. You've got it in one.
No special fixation on hairdressers. Its just that I've searched for years to figure out a metaphor that women could understand and relate to when discussing a casual, pleasant but without much attachment, sexual encounter. You *do* use the woman, but not in a distasteful sense, as in blowing your nose (which is the example I've often heard women attempt to apply), but more along the lines of going to a barber or hairdresser that you utilize to cut your hair, share a pleasant hour with chatting about nothing serious, and then shake hands (or whatever) and part company until next time. And that's all the more thought or emotional weight you put into it.
And lest I leave you (or anyone) with the wrong impression, its not like I am not interested in reciprocating. I happily engage in pretty much any activity that she would want also-- so that casual encounters are more "mutually using" each other. She using me, me using her, us using each other.
funny, this.
So you already know, want a cookie? Lots of women say they don't know and want to understand. Why would you sneer at someone trying to find a common ground for communication?
I can only speak for myself and relate the amalgam of the various opinions and conversations I've had with other guys. Men talk amongst themselves as women probably do- though they tend to do it in "guy code", their real opinions and attitudes get through. I think most guys are "tenderer" than they would want people (especially other guys) to know or believe. I think most guys, even the really macho ones, secretly want to please their women if they can.
I think most guys are very visually attracted by the various female attributes but are then ready to experience the other aspects of her being-- personality. I think many guys-- don't know about most-- are very turned on by the smells of a woman. Women often go all out to eliminate odors and present themselves as pristine as possible, which may actually work against them.
I think many guys are less turned on by makeup and pushup bras than women think. And even the "way hot fantasy woman" a man sees now and then are likely to only be a 30-second fantasy and though he might make a crude comment or two, or leer lustfully, I think many, perhaps most men are attracted more to "real" everyday obtainable women.
I think that many women are worried about the size of their breasts, butts or other parts. I think most guys appreciate a well-formed breast, butt and other female parts, but are more attracted to a woman who is "reasonably proportioned" and has a happy, upbeat, funny, spontaneous personality who knows how to work those "reasonably proportioned" parts the right way.
I think women over-estimate the impact of exotic lingerie and under-estimate the impact of wearing "just a little extra" regular underwear. (for instance, a modest investment in some garters and stockings will often go a very long way)
I think women do themselves (and their guys) a disservice by reading that crap in Cosmo. If you really want to capture your guy's attention, learn how to do a killer strip-tease. And learn what visual thing(s) gets your guy going-- all guys have something they like, a turn of the hip, the sight of a breast from the right angle, a well-turned butt all theirs for the looking-- I think it varies from man to man what the specifics are, but I think most men have certain visual triggers that drive them nuts.
I think many women may not completely realize how much a man might just want to *look* at them. All of them. That just the act of looking at the woman you're attracted to can be a turn-on.
I think many women may not realize how well a well-timed "naughty suggestion" whispered into a man's ear can set the tone for a great encounter.
Many men don't want to "not be in control", but would like and appreciate a women lighting the fuse and getting things started. (Other men might like not being in control at all and letting the woman drive)
These thoughts may not be true for all men of course, and I can really only speak for myself and what I've heard other guys express.
Some men prefer plump women, while others prefer slim women. Over all, it's just great to be a woman knowing that occasionally I am turning a man's head. Thanks again for the thought that went into your post.
I was going to mention how most women overdo the makeup-- but I got distracted away from the keyboard for a moment and it fell out of my reply. Interesting that you picked-it up.
Speaking only for myself, I like women who wear maybe just a hint of makeup- but am quite happy with women who wear none as well.
And I *HATE* the taste of lipstick and the *SMELL* of makeup.
G-a-a-a-aag.
I have rarely met any woman who didn't have *something* interesting for a guy to experience. Being yourself is definitely the best way to go.
http://open.salon.com/blog/ravingbits/2009/05/14/what_sex_is_like_for_some_women
Go check it out (and then be sure to come back here and leave some more comments and hit my rating button-- every time you hit my ratings button, an angel somewhere gets its cookies :) :)
I challenge you to take on what you asked of me... what does it feel like? From the time your interest is piqued to the time you know something's going to happen, to what's going through your mind and body during the merge... I'm asking for mostly selfish reasons -- I wonder when's a good time for us to turn on the steam? Should we focus extra energy on certain parts of the dance? I'm wildly curious. I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.
The answer is...there is no ONE answer. Not one that fits every couple (or group, as in polyamory)...nor situation. The dynamics of a relationship is always changing, always in flux...and all the more reason to have frequent, meaningful conversations with your love and/or sex partners...male or female (or queer, etc.). If you marry thinking, well, that's it, we've made our commitment to each other and that's done...think again! I'll writer more extensively about this, but thanks for the extensive post AND all the comments I've seen here so far. deLuvDoc
I personally think it would be interesting to know more the mental aspect, your internal monologue, how you mentally process the physical sensations (if at all?)... like... for me, a short example would be "oh God, maybe that extra glass of wine was too much, this isn't working right; is he going to be insulted if I slip my hand between us and rub my clit? Why doesn't he just turn me over for a minute -- but then I'll be done way too quickly, maybe that's a bad idea. Whoa! There we go, good rhythm finally. Harder. I can work with this... wait, why is he so quiet, is he bored? Can he feel me getting ready to climax? Etc. etc." As you can tell, in my head -- it's a constant stream of questions.
I wonder if in others' heads it's a constant stream of demands: "Hold still. Don't hold still. Wrap your legs around me. Kiss me. Bite me. Scream."
Hmm. It's probably a different internal monologue every time, isn't it? Perhaps short of HIGHLY interesting reading -- this exercise might not reveal much insight. I retract my request until we can think of a better way to organize it.
Maybe a list of specific situational FAQ's that you guys can answer on behalf of men, and we can answer back from womens' brains?
Like, "if you have a preference for lights on/off, why?"
That could start a long, long, comment train sure to get you on the EP list :o)
Further, your addendums regarding makeup, lingerie, smells, etc. are spot on. Once again, there is not one magic pill that works for us all (okay, maybe a blue one), but it's safe to say that variety will turn my head faster than anything. I don't want a woman dressing up every night in a clingy nightie--sometimes that flannel pajama look can excite just as easily if the nuance is there. On the other hand, please dear god don't trot out cotton baggies with cats printed on them five nights out of the week.
One last thing: men do like being taken sometimes. It's intoxicating to feel that your lover wants you, too. Now, I will go pull on my gym shorts and tank top. . .
"I guess we meet somewhere in the middle, and I know that neither one of us is truly happy with our sexual relations. "
but while you detail why you aren't happy, I don't think you ever say why she isn't. Why is she not "truly happy" with your sex life?
I ask because IMO the way relationships do the hard work of change -- the way any of us do the hard work of changing ourselves or our behavior - -is because there's a reward in there for us. If I'm to open myself up and do things that feel scary (as you suggest is true for your wife sexually), then I damn well want to feel there's a big juicy reward for it! (uh, yes, that's a bit of a pun)
Maybe you know your wife's feelings very well and don't want to spell them out here for reasons of privacy or whatever. Actually, though, you do spell out her feelings quite a bit, in so far as detailing what you feel are her fears/ hang ups (my word) and her bottom line want (to be desired just as she is). But what would make her "truly happy" sexually? Do you know?
Yes, I know. She's never been able to have an orgasm when we have sex. We've had lots of fun, gotten very close-- but she's never made it over the hump. She *can* orgasm, I've seen her do it to herself, but even for her its very difficult and takes some serious industrial technology and lots of watts. And she doesn't masturbate regularly (back to the "good girls don't do that" type of thing)-- in the five years we've been together I can only recall her masturbating two maybe three times. Certainly she doesn't have to let me know every time, but considering the brick she has to use to get the job done, its not that hard to notice.
She tells me she had good sex a long time ago with a previous boyfriend (a number of BF's back) when she was in college. So presumably it is technically possible for her to achieve orgasm during sex.
I am willing to do or try any technique she wants, in whatever way she wants, for as long as she wants. But its usually me who tries to figure out what might work and give it a go. There's a number of things she enjoys-- she gets into it and doesn't make me stop (cunnilingus for example, I enjoy doing it and apparently she enjoys it too) but it doesn't make her cum. I can go for a very long time, fast or slow, whatever strokes she likes-- I let her lead me as much as she will.
Eventually though, after awhile, she lets me have sex with her in whatever way I like so I can orgasm. And then we snuggle and talk-- I usually feel bad that it didn't work out for her-- yet again. I think she probably does too-- whether because she's high-and-dry or just can't come-- I don't know which. But imagining myself in her place, I could understand being frustrated.
At first I would encourage her to try and get off on her own. But she doesn't really like to do that so I've quit asking. Sex, for her seems to have become a perfunctory duty. I don't like feeling that way or having her feel that way, so we just sort of back away from each other.
Sometimes she'll initiate things-- and she's okay with various positions and whatnot-- its not like its the same thing every time. And we have fun trying-- I generally get off- but she doesn't ever seem to.
So that puts a definite damper on things.
http://open.salon.com/blog/bstrangely/2009/05/04/loving_my_robot_rhythm_method
i think it's very sad that people have such a hard time negotiating their physical relationships. i know it was hard for me to talk openly about sex, even with someone i was having it with. i feel strongly that women are encouraged to sense what our partners want without discussion (and vice versa too) as if that shows how good your relationship is. it was a long time before i could acknowledge my husband's inability to read my mind. this is how i think of cosmo's attitude toward sex therapy: experienced women know what a man wants, and this knowledge will please him more than explaining it to you. it's a hybrid between the madonna/whore image: the good girl who magically already knows what to do in bed. it's counterproductive, and i think it's partly to blame for what you describe in your relationship. tying up your identity in your sexual experience makes a lot of people too self-conscious to have those experiences.
i feel a little unique in that my husband and i were both virgins when we started having sex, and we remained monogamous. neither of us have anyone to compare each other to, which is nice in some ways, but hard in others. without memories of other partners, it was difficult to discount the advice of "experts". it was a choice to start talking to each other about what pleases us, and it was hard initially. now it's foreplay sometimes, but not always.
and personally, i'm not capable of imagining infidelity like visiting a hairdresser. maybe someday, but currently, i am actually that person who would wash her hair so the hairdresser wouldn't think of me like a greaseball. i got a kick out of watching my dad turn his knives around on his plate when we were all out to dinner, because he worried about the busboy cutting himself. i can't shut this part of my brain off, and it would become consumed with grief and worry about why i wasn't adequate, even if that's not the intended message.
I don't think anyone has recommended infidelity, either with or without a hairdresser.
all i know is, you seem to have great reverence for new vaginas, and though you say you are happy in your relationship, you said a sex holiday would be a great invention.
and i acknowledge that your experience is different from mine, but that sounds like you really want to visit the hairdresser, because you're dissatisfied with the usual. if i've misunderstood, i would be happy to get a clarification. as i said, we're each other's only vagina and only penis, so maybe i just don't get it. if i heard my husband talk like this, i would be profoundly sad, and that's what i'm trying to articulate here.
if you read my whole post you also saw where I said I am in a _committed_ relationship with my wife. Straying (infidelity) is not an option.
Also, if you read my whole post-- right up at the *very top* I put in a paragraph that said I was referring to the overall arch of my life and *not* so much with my current or previous committed relationships.
Just FYI, in case you weren't aware, this was the original question framed my Fingerlakeswanderer:
"In my wrestling with the issue, I strayed, and wound up in the jungle of female/male desire. Many folks commented on that post, but I'd like to ask men their specific answers to a couple of questions.
I mean it as an attempt for us to share information. I have been the object of male desire, never its subject, and I want to know what male desire feels like. "
Finally, I am happy that you and your husband have a great sex life and are happy with the way things work for you.
What would your opinion be if you were in this situation?
"This is What a Sexless Marriage Feels Like"
http://open.salon.com/blog/and_yet/2009/05/11/this_is_what_a_sexless_marriage_feels_like
i can tell i've offended you with that word, and i'm sorry for that. i was only trying to describe the act of having sex with someone you're not attached to when you're in a committed relationship.
and it's not my experience. that's a sad post, and i hope desperately that my husband and i are never doing that to each other. we've mythologized love and marriage a great deal, to the detriment of real relationships. my husband's grandparents live together, married for more than 60 years, but they don't share a bed anymore, and any stranger would believe they hated each other from their conversations. that's not a life i want, and i recognized a little of it in and yet's post. it's hard to be married, and i recognize that.
i don't know why you're asking me about it now. i believe many people are unhappy and feel trapped by their relationships. i don't think i ever said anything about recommending infidelity. i said that i didn't understand your feelings, and now i know i did not describe what you're trying to express well.
i'm sorry.
Upon reflection, I haven't really been answering your comment have I?
So let me try again.
I understand your point about you and your husband having only known each other. You do have a different situation than I do, and perhaps even than most of the people here-- either male or female. I can't say that for certain of course, but I rather suspect that's the case.
I have been fortunate in my escapades over the years (from my own viewpoint) and have enjoyed dalliances with quite a few eager and willing females. I don't consider myself a "stud" by any stretch of the imagination, so please don't venture down that road. I'm just a regular guy who has had a lot of pleasurable experiences with women over the years.
My wife has had a number of boyfriends as well-- I don't know exactly how many, I've never interrogated her about them, but merely listened as she occasionally related some of her experiences here and there. I know its more than one or two but doubt its more than perhaps five or six. But I really don't know other than from stuff she's said.
So I, and my wife, *are* more experienced in that area. Having fun with women *has* been a fact of my life-- a pleasant one that I have no regrets over nor would ever want to change. I like women quite a bit-- and not just for sex. You have no earthly idea how much I hate-- abhor-- typical "guy talk".
I stated early on in my original post that while it was ostensibly titled for all men that I can really only speak for myself and what I've heard and experienced with the men I've known and conversed with over the years. I freely admit there may be (and probably are) other men who don't share my experiences or opinions at all. And, just to point this out-- there may be men who just say whatever they think their woman wants them to say. Or don't know how they would feel under other circumstances-- just as you indicated that you don't know how you would feel if either of you or your husband had had more experience prior to your relationship.
And yes, I do enjoy "new vaginas", in the context that I enjoy having sex with women. It is a very pleasurable aspect of sex, and each woman is different-- and that one of the very pleasurable aspects of going to bed with a different woman is the feel of her vagina for the very first time. Other men and women have posted follow-on comments indicating that they shared much of the same enjoyment and pleasures in that as well. So it certainly does not sound like its a unique attitude or carnal pleasure known only unto me, but is rather something that is enjoyed by many and is a pleasurable aspect of having sex with someone new.
I don't feel bad or ashamed at enjoying that. And I somewhat resent what seems to be your semi-implicit and unspoken charge that I should be. Because that's the message I took away from your comment, if you didn't mean it that way, my apologies, but that's the way it sounded from my viewpoint.
After a long and lusty span I am now in a committed relationship with a woman I love and deeply respect and have no trouble at all living up to my commitment to. But what? I'm just supposed to lobotomize myself and forget everything else that's ever happened in my life with respect to sex?
We are who we are, we met at the stage in life we met-- we now have a wonderful life, a beautiful house (home), two fantastic little boys that each of us just dotes on and adores, and enjoy each other's company in pretty much every respect-- even in bed. But unfortunately for us, we have had some problems "ringing the bell". We continue to try. And we have coping strategies. But that is one of the real problems/issues between us.
And I'm sure its compounded by the difference in the range of experiences we've had in our life times. I have had a lot of fun, my personality is very open and adventuresome and I've had a lot of fun times doing a whole host of fun and kinky things with the women I've bedded. She hasn't had as much experience. So in addition to our central issue, there is also the additional situation where I would like to do a lot more, be a lot more adventurous and spontaneous and engage in a wide variety of different things-- with my wife-- including playing with other women-- with my wife. She on the other hand, doesn't have any of those desires or experience with a lot of the things I've had fun with-- its a serious impedance mismatch between us.
That doesn't make her wrong or me right or vise versa. It just simply is how the situation is and that's what we have to deal with. But, getting back to the point-- that doesn't mean I can't think back on my experiences, have fun thoughts and memories about specific encounters and situations, or wish that I could continue to experience them. That's the good part about wishing and fantasizing.
And those are the things I wrote about, in candor and honesty from my own perspective in response to Fingerlakeswanderer's question. And when other people asked me questions or prompted me to elucidate this point or that point, I did so with equal honesty and candor.
And then you come along and seem to imply that there's something wrong with my experiences or that I'm advocating infidelity-- when if you read my post carefully-- I merely suggested that maybe society should invent sex holidays-- that would be _accepted and sanctioned_ by society and thus *by definition* would *not* be infidelity. Since it is the collective agreement by the members of society that actually determine and define what infidelity-- or anything-- is.
And I don't know what the obsession with hairdressers is. I have an asian hairdresser, and I admit I have lusty fantasies about her while she's cutting my hair-- but that's as far as it goes.
So what is your real point?
"and personally, i'm not capable of imagining infidelity like visiting a hairdresser."
and i've spent two comments apologizing for using that word. somehow, now that's turned into:
"And then you come along and seem to imply that there's something wrong with my experiences or that I'm advocating infidelity-- when if you read my post carefully-- I merely suggested that maybe society should invent sex holidays-- that would be _accepted and sanctioned_ by society and thus *by definition* would *not* be infidelity. Since it is the collective agreement by the members of society that actually determine and define what infidelity-- or anything-- is."
my belief is that your relationship is yours. even if society makes all the rules, you make your own society with the person (or people) you choose to share your life with. that's my point. you asked in the comments, what is sex like for a woman, and i was just attempting to answer a bit, what it's like for me, with a note about the part of your post that confounded me.
i hope that helps. you read a lot into my comment that i didn't say and i didn't even think it at the screen.
Then I humbly apologize- in sincerity. I misunderstood the intent and meaning of your comments. I took them to be an insinuation when you meant them as point of view. I'm sorry.
I do invite and want to hear from women regarding their point-of-view, "what is sex like for women?"
I wonder, then, if there's something emotional going on for her. I've been with men who have had prior female partners who also were anorgasmic, or would only orgasm with a vibrator or on their own. Since I knew the men to be good lovers, I didn't think that it wasn't for lack of their trying. The fact that your wife did have orgasms with an earlier lover is also a clue. Assuming her health hasn't changed, then what was different emotionally with that lover, if anything? Was becoming a wife the turning point? (Some women internally embrace that madonna/whore kind of split.) Was she more in love with you and therefore the stakes got raised? (IOW, was it actually also "better" for her when things were more casual vs in a committed relationship that she hoped would last for life?) Also, victims of previous sexual violence (including molestation and incest) can have repercussions years after the fact, often more in serious relationships like marriage than in casual ones. (I'll add that I've known many women who never told their spouses that they'd been raped or molested. So it's possible that happened to her even if you think it didn't. It's shockingly common for women.)
IMO, she would need to explore all this with a therapist who is experienced in treating sexual issues. But it would need to be something she'd want to do. I hope for both your sakes that some day it is.
Borrowing that inimitable line from Wargames:
"I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it would do any good."
:)
Can I ask you a question? Does your wife know you blog on OS? And if she does, I guess she knows about this post?
d
As I'm old, 51, and have been through various physical changes of late, I would recommend from experience that your wife get a thorough check up, and in particular, get her hormone levels checked out. I happen to be on numerous bioidenticals (several debunking posts have been made on these recently, but I continue my steadfast support) and I recommend the testosterone cream for women. Yes, I do.
:)
d
One thing she doesn't have that I wish she did have is some women friends she could talk about women issues with. She's pretty isolated and in her own world-- which isn't a bad world, and she seems reasonably happy in it-- but having outside friends is such a good thing-- if nothing else it gives you a sounding board, a place to try out new ideas in safety, a place to just vent, and someone besides your SO (me) to pal around with. Not that I mind palling around with her-- and I don't go out with other people much either, almost never in fact-- but I don't feel like I'm bottled up or lacking in places and methods for interacting with people. I prefer intellectual engagement as social activity for the most part anyway, and can easily get that here and other places. I don't know if she feels bottled-up, but I know I feel bottled-up for her on her behalf. Maybe that's none of my business- but I wish she was a little more outgoing and engaging.
But we're getting very far afield here. To bad OS or Salon doesn't have just general chit-chat rooms where this kind of stuff can happen w/o derailing the main theme.
..and it isn't you-- I've been happy to answer questions as they've come up-- but I've been noticing that we've been getting farther from the original topic. Which is a shame because I was really looking forward to hearing other people's input on it-- from the men about what they feel and the women about what they feel.
I'm only controlling if I'm asked to be. (Which isn't a joke)
The idea of a Sex Holiday is great. Most women claim immorality is the reason they wouldn't consider it/polyamory. The true reason (mentioned above somewhere) is we fear our partner will fall in love with the novel one and leave us.
Sex sparks strong chemicals that lead folks to think they're in love when its just the Oxytocin. It's evolutionarily beneficial. Or is it only that way for women.
Having said that, Novelty sounds more powerful than than any biochemical. So maybe I'm wrong.
A regular Sex Holiday would be Nirvana for men, which leads me to believe that the realities are impossible to reconcile or they would've figured out a way to do it long age.
I agree that historically it would have been difficult-- not to mention that historically, in many cultures or areas at least, it has always been possible for men to get some on the side, even if they had to have mistresses or go to bawdy-houses. But that's not really the intent of the "Sex Holiday", which is designed to be a socially-sanctioned device to regulate it. In modern times (today) the mechanics are less problematic (pregnancy, diseases, etc) and its really more just whether people could agree to permit it.
Incredible feedback and discussion; which I only think goes to prove that we all have an opinion about this topic and think about it a whole heck of a lot more than we are willing to let on in polite company.
Thanks for the nice comments!
Thanks for this candid view on the male sexual mind.
What were you expecting?
I confess to also enjoying romance novels:)
I got married when I was a month away from 23. Within six months of our separation 6 months later, I fell in love with my future husband and we made love the first time we met. Our long distance relationship for 5 years (NY and London) drove me wild. Celibacy is not my thing. Since we were married in December 01, I have had the best sex in my life, which isn't to say sex with my first husband wasn't terrific. Admittedly it was quite as often as I preferred and prefer. BA woman who can entice a man 16 years younger to leave home, job, England,swim the ocean, marry her, acquire 4 stepdaughters and now four step grandchildren, and become an American citizen, must be a sex maniac, especially if she has the guts to have white hair.
Don't worry, I sometimes have that effect on people...
:)
Thanks for the links! Looks like I've got some fun reading to do.
'Sex' has such context in humanity. It's both dirty and a necessity. People have such hangups over something that should be enjoyable and done with abandon.
I've tended to be more tactile than visual but have been accused of being a 'sex machine' at times yet I do try to please my wife. Sex has changed over the years too. Easily orgasmic has become occasionally orgasmic. Willing to do be adventurous has become rote. Wearing provocative things has become burdensome. Sex has become to a greater sense a 'service' rather than an enjoyable and naughty moment. Love, like sex changes... Ruts are the danger I think but she is under a lot of stress lately. And life goes on...
It was interesting to read another's feelings on male sexuality. Rarely is it talked about in our 'proper society'...
Thanks for your nice comments. I don't know what its like from the gal's point of view, though I've often tried hard to imagine, but I daresay you're right that there are more similarities than differences.
Thank you for writing this.
Thank you for stopping by also. Its hard to miss what you've never had. I think Bstrangely was making comments that dealt with that issue to some degree.
That can also be caused by low blood serum testosterone, a common condition in men as they age-- and its treatable.
To each his own. Memories are good and all, but I kinda like that desire part myself. :)