Rolling

Rolling
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Peace has been said to be indivisible; so is freedom...

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FEBRUARY 24, 2009 2:43PM

Fathers May not be Optional - BUT

Rate: 25 Flag

this is basically a response to a post from one of the authors I came to like reading,  here at OS.

lately, in her post Doc asserts that women should not consider it their brith right to conceive or be a mother. She goes on to say, in effect in the course of her post, that if a woman cannot make sure that she can give her child a 'live-in father', she should not consider having a baby out of selfish desire to be a mom.

I was about to comment there when I realized that I have too much to say on the issue - so I decided to do it in my space and not hog it at doc's and add to the storm there. I like her.

however, I like me too. and I feel whether it is government or the society, or even with a family, the most important responsibility of an individual lies with his own self. in the end it is s/he who has to take care of his/er own self. build a circle or people around that makes her feel worthy and lovable and loving or whatever. build a life that is not a liability to either the State or relations or even one's spouse or anyone for that matter. build a whole world around that helps develope and nurture his or her potential as a human being, an individual, as a parent or citizen.

if there is a lapse in any of these 'expectations' that society or State has of her/him, they are subjected to humiliation, or admonished depending on age, sex, status, economic importance. I mean you get to hear it - that something is just not right with you/ your life/ way you think etc.

now then, in the light of this 'fact of life' is it not natural for mature, financially able, responsible, intelligent, NORMAL women to want to go ahead and take care of themselves and their needs the way they can or want to? of course, we still do not have enough evidence as to what works best for child rearing - two parent formula, a set of hetero couple, a set of same sex couple or what. Three people had pointed these out in the comment section there.

we still do not understand what makes for a 'well brought up child' - in different cultures it means different things. it means these things depend on what values have been transmitted to a child - it doesn't matter who had done that as long as the values have been transmitted and are in functional condition. a lot of children grow up with widowed mothers - and still turn out to be great human beings by any standards wherever one might be in the world. Satyajit Ray grew up fatherless. he had lost his father when he was a child and grew up in his maternal parent's house.

there are other celebrities who did great things with their lives and are known to be fine men, women, citizens, artists yada yadadespite the fact that they grew up in a single parent environment.

what seems to be important here looks like, whether the child has had good 'parenting'. like another reader of that post points out, she grew up with a set of parents that were incompatible and often abusive. she actually says that she doesn't doubt that the children might have had happier childhood if they didn't have to live throught the agony and insecurity caused by such parenting. plenty of households have dysfunctional fathers or mothers but there is no statistics shwoing conclusively, that even 50% of these turn out bad.

statistics am sure - (to be rational and commonsensical),  would vary from culture to culture and country to country depending on other factors like "values", social practices.

it is nice and peaceful to have a "father" no doubt. ever since my father passed away I have felt alone and insecure like never before. he was like a great big umbrella and shock absorber in my life and am forty one!

yet, I would not say it is absolutely essential to wait until a woman has found a man that cares enough, is cultured enough, is decent enough, is man enough - to take the responsibility of his offspring willingly. a woman can bear children only upto a certain age. she keeps losing her eggs with every passing year whereas a man could, without much difficulty, father a child even at sixty. Picasso had one at that age, I hear. quite a few of them do. but how many women over forty five do you hear can bear a child easily?

if she hasnt found one she would like to bring home and share the parenthood of her child with - and mind you, being mom, she does know best about who is going to be good for her kid and who wouldn't. I think they were biologically designed to figure this out - instinct would tell her whom she ought to kick the hell out of her and the children's lives and whom to approach for shared parenthood. it really is uncanny with the way you can tell - sometimes one is not even looking and yet you know who you should not get too close to.

so when it is the woman that has to carry the baby in her womb for nine months, bear with the pain and agony, also responsible for inculcating social values in her child - she ought to get to decide. ESPECIALLY IN TODAY'S WORLD. we have lost those glorious days when moms taught their sons to be nice to women just because they were women!

and with cryogenics and cryonics progressing hand in hand (one is about controlling temperature and the other about keeping cells and dna alive in temperature controlled environment, right now can't figure which is which)(someday, I guess you could actually bring a dead man alive because his dna was alive in a cryo lab) and stem cell research and various kinds of producing babies outside of a womb - I do believe - we are heading on towrds days when women WILL not marry unless they really truly like a man, no bloody matter what the world says or does.

this argument is a bit culturally biased - but still - if you like, you can read up on Hindu mythologies, babies were created at will, as and when necessary and in various kinds of ways(Pandavas and Kauravas). there were days when a learned woman or perhaps any woman - could actually walk up to a man she admired or respected and ask for a baby!

O yes, India never was as backward as it is made out to be by nouveu Indians who forget their past and history. there were seven different kinds of marriages too, each of them perfectly legitimate,  in those days, before India became 'modern' (read Anglicized). (being gay wasn't a crime then - it was a matter of decently exercising a choice, without living an insincere or agonized double life).

what mattered was - who was bringing up the child and how, in what kind of environment.this should still be what matters.

the last word is it is my womb, my baby's life and mine - so I get to decide what's best for us. and if I can ensure my baby gets a set of wonderful people around to love it, cherish it, care for it and take responsibility if something were to happen to me, it IS my birth right to give my self motherhood.

marry I can even at age sixty five if I should find a man worth sharing my life with then. but would I be able to conceive then? so why should I wait or worry if I can now?

guess this has become a typical sagittarian "a bail mujhey maar"( "come clobber me folks on the head I dont give a shit" ) post.

but I just had to say this for the sake of a lot of people, gay, not so gay, lesbians, headstrong single women like me, women that never did find love but looked all their lives - men that could not muster enough courage or simply didn't have the ability to take responsibility as fathers (it is a huge task that a lot of them may not be up to and it is always better if they are honest about it and are spared!) - when you have this little pink baby that looks up at your eyes and breaks forth into this amazing fix-it-all sunshine smile - I would say, make the effort - father, no father, enjoy her and your motherhood -

let the world go figure - as long as you raise a child that knows how to care - about what people around you generally consider to be the right things in the world, take a chance, woman. be a mother, it is your birth right. THEY would have to earn their right to be the father, I think. am tired...

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Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. This says it all. I applaud you!
I am sure you speak for so many of us that have ZERO desire to get into a senseless, fuzzy-logic debate with the "Dr".
Thanks a mill. :)
OMG! You found our loco local doc already and you "liked" her. Well, at least you've got over your "like now :-). She's not worth wasting pixels over. Most of us have her on permanent IGNORE. I think her provocatively titled piffle is best treated with a certain Alice in Wonderland derision: "(S)he only does it to annoy, because (s)he knows it teases" though we can't whack her when she sneezes :-).

Substantively, you make very good points. I think the law, culture, mores, demographics are all increasingly on your side, at least here in the US. Doc Loony's is an echo chamber lonely voice -- but then most of her posts are like that.

WOOF
She Who Could Not Be Wrong™ is frequently full of it. monkey fingered.
I like your point of view and I totally disagreed with the doc's crock.
O! thanks... erm... surprised that I didn't get clobbered...sorry about the typos, syntax errors, and loops in the info - like I mention India, but didn't make it clear that it 'used' to happen, it doesn't anymore. No woman in her right mind would allow a wedlock baby to be born here bec she knows it would get torn apart by the 'society', would be denied admission to good schools, the mother may have difficulty surviving alone unless some man takes her under his wing as 'protector-benefactor' in some way.
(Sushmita Sen could do it because she is protected by her celeb status and her family supports her). But as you say, where Doc lives it should be easy with State suppporting childcare and prevailing culture of 'freedom for the indiv". Which means, am saying women are not morons, or irresponsible and they do not willingly deprive their children deliberately. She has rights to her health, wealth, her own womb, and with her children's fatherhood, which should not be accidental considering it's so imp to the child.

Had I figd out how to go back in to the post to edit, cd have put it all back in there (cant see edit button once its 'published').

kitehilps, CCC, Blue Behind Eyes, coffeegyrl - smithbarney, thanks to you all again for your patient reading and support. feels good to be alive :)
I think, as do many, that Dr. Amy purposefully names posts in provocative ways to attract people to argue with her. Don't be surprised if she argues with you on this blog, until you come up with a question that she can't answer, then she departs. I don't hate her or anything..she has a right to her opinion, but....she can blow things out of proportion, engage in smugness, and disappear when things get tough for her.
That said--I liked your post. I myself would be afraid to try single motherhood on purpose, though if I became pregnant on accident
I wouldn't necessarily end the pregnancy or give the baby up. If a woman is dying to be a mother and has a good support system, I think she has a right to consider motherhood. I hate to say it, but many people I know had fathers who provided economic support only (and some didn't even do that). Mom took care of you when you were sick, checked up on your friends, dispensed meds, handled appointments, went to teacher conferences and sports events, etc. And mom had to have a fulltime job with as many hours as Dad. So....it's not right for everyone, but far be it from me to say that single motherhood is wrong. Many are married and are virtually single mothers, anyway, and many become single mothers after a marriage.
"Mom took care of you when you were sick, checked up on your friends, dispensed meds, handled appointments, went to teacher conferences and sports events, etc. And mom had to have a fulltime job with as many hours as Dad. So....it's not right for everyone, but far be it from me to say that single motherhood is wrong.

Many are married and are virtually single mothers, anyway, and many become single mothers after a marriage."

yes! exactly...thanks, DeliaBlack for sharing your views and dropping by at my blog.
Well put - I agree with you. In the end the doc'd post was as described by other's here, 'provocatively title piffle' lol. The one good thing about it was the side discussions in the comment thread about family units, the evolving/devolving family unit etc... Hopefully someone will side post on that. Thanks again!

Peece!
David
You did a wonderful job explaining why there are single mothers.

I got tired of reading Dr. Amy's prejudices so I did not know what was in her blog and it would have upset me.
I really like this post as it explores all the different variations of ideas and what it really is to be a woman, and to be a woman in the world.

Also, what it means to be a mom! I love that. And speaking from experience, having that baby, seeing that baby, loving and protecting that baby, I want to protect her from the people who would take her choices away from her. They appear to the be the most dangerous and worrisome to me, but more so than someone else out there making choices of her own.
Hi, nice to meet you, and I don't mind a bit that your post is culturally biased. It's one of the strengths of the internet that different cultural perspectives can meet.

There's only one thing I'd argue about, and that is that mothers always know what is best for their children. I have been a case worker for Child Protective Services, and I have seen first hand that not all mothers have their child's best interests in mind. Did you know that when you count murdered children, more children are murdered by their own mothers than by all other categories of people combined?

Then there's this:

"if she hasnt found one she would like to bring home and share the parenthood of her child with - and mind you, being mom, she does know best about who is going to be good for her kid and who wouldn't. I think they were biologically designed to figure this out - instinct would tell her whom she ought to kick the hell out of her and the children's lives and whom to approach for shared parenthood. it really is uncanny with the way you can tell - sometimes one is not even looking and yet you know who you should not get too close to."

Um, no. Many many mothers cannot tell, and there is no such instinct, at least for most people. In America, 1 out of 4 adult women claims to have been sexually molested as a child, and the overwhelming majority of the time, the molester was the father or the mother's boyfriend. My own foster daughter told her birth mother that she had been raped by her father, and her birth mother replied, "He's not asking you to do anything I don't do, shut up, he pays the rent." I can't tell you how many girls have told me some version of the same story.

Unfortunately it's not possible to trust mothers to protect their children. We all have to protect children.
This attitude breeds selfishishness beyond belief. Like my husbands ex-wife who moved their 2 children 3000 miles away from where they were born and raised. Moved them away from a father who loves them and was completely invovled in their lives becasue she "missed the smell of the ocean" and wasn't "happy". So now, they are fatherless in their daily lives (he couldn't afford a lawyer to keep them here and can't afford to fly them out more than 2x/year). His ex-wife gets money a-plenty for those kids and herself through the divorce, enough that she could quit her job, and do "whatever makes her happy". I call BS on thinking only of yourself when you have children. Children have mothers and fathers and untill our society starts to value the input of BOTH parents, fathers will continue to be discared and treated as wallets.
Dear 2ndWifeToo: I understand that it maybe difficult to fly out and spend quality time w/ the children more than twice a year. But, can you guys move closer to his children? What is more important to you both? Also, there are emails and video phones available; you can easily contact them daily because from what I read here, there is no court order limiting on father's visit. How involved do you want to be? The choice is yours.
Also, Ms. Rolling's blog is a response to Dr. A's "are fathers optional?" Therefore, if you disagree with Ms. Rolling, does that mean you agree with Dr. A's position ? I am confused....
To Pucci,
No we cannot move to where she lives. First off, there are no jobs there. Second off that would mean moving 6 people living there who don't want to live there (their 2 kids, their father, me and our 2 kids) so that one person (selfish mom) can "smell the ocean". Third, he cannot quit his job, we have 4 kids to support. ( I say "we" cause she doesn't work and it takes both of us working to send her the amount of support she gets and still survivie). And no, I don't agree totally with the Doc. I don't agree people have to be married to have children (although they do need to be committed) and that single women should have the option to have children. What I have a problem with is a society that seems to be leaning more and more to discarding dads. If a decent loving father IS in the picture, there should NOT be the option to disregard his right to be involved (daily) in his childrens lives.
ps - phone calls and emails are great, but they can never replace BEING with your children. Never.
Great article, Rolling, though clearly written in the white heat of anger. Remind me not to cross you ;-).

Allie, you apparently agree with the main thrust of what Rolling is saying. But then to bring the stuff up about mothers murdering kids is sensationalistic at best, and downright inaccurate as well.

First, the "always" in "mothers always know what is best" is yours, not Rolling's.

Second, I wonder what the source of your "mothers kill more children than all other categories combined" is? For children under 5, the U.S. Dept. of Justice site gives the rate as 29% killed by mothers, 31% by fathers, 40% by others.
www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/children.htm

(Rated)
@ Jimenace, your idea is appealing - through writing about it I might want to understand the evolving family in India better sometime during vacs. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

@Dorinda Fox, You are welcome and thank you. U made me smile: "why there are single mothers" - that could become another reactionary rant post ;) . Seriously tho, it wd be good to know, to read a study, if someone does it properly with statistics and stuff.

@ odetteroulette, yes, wish my mum was a bit like you, but then she belongs to a completely diff generation and it's unfair of me...your ID is lovely, word rolls nicely on the tongue and the babies in class loved to play with it - their faces and the way they beat their hands to the rhythm of it, when they say it would have made you smile. How did you think of it?

@ Allie, you scared me - now that you mention it, I do remember seeing news items in a row over the last couple of years...but I wd like to believe it is not normal. As for father-daughter relationship, here in India we are protected by custom and tradition and religion too: in all tradition loving Bengali homes at least, daughters of the house are affectionately addressed as "Maa", our word for Mother. On the streets, even a few days ago, males would to be courteous address an unknown woman as that. Devi represents "power" for the Hindus. So at least among our community there is no written record either in literature or painting or arts of fathers molesting their daughters. But literature does record the son's adulation of and subconsciously desiring the mother - but no molesting that I heard of.

Its disturbing to read about...

@ Second Wife, welcome to my space, thanks for sharing your views, yes, maybe, but didn't say women 'ought' to, only said, men shd not expect to wield baby as weapon against a woman to make her stick to him.

@ PucciPoo Poo, Smithbarney, your response sar ankhon par I wd always respect that while writing. (PPP, that's the sort of word we use to play with babies here, it made me smile too)

Am lucky to have had all you guys read me! Thank you.
You have said what I would, most eloquently .... good job! And not even all Indians know about the seven types of marriage! I love the Gandarva idea the best......Excellent!
Very interesting post, thanks. It helps me see this issue in a larger cultural context that I don't usually consider.
Rolling, Excellent stand for motherhood! I believe that it works better if there is an extended family to provide additional support...the village raising a child helps a lot.
C Berg, yes it does, in India therefore, people hesitate as our community does not support a baby outside of a marriage. which is why I had written this post. Dr Amy was talking like an Indian govt official :) and not at all like the doctor she is or claims to be.

have always been scared of the West, but regarding such matters think you guys are better off there.
make do with my Godson in this life, he is 16 months old now :)

Sanjuro66, thanks
I just want to know what about men who WANT to be fathers who WANT to have babies and raise children? What about THEIR reproductive rights?

(Here come all the my womb / surrogate / tough life comments...)
do they have a probem? as for the LGBT people we are fighting for their rights along with them - it will happen.