The OS Environment -Members are Uncomfortable
Padraig in his comment here (http://open.salon.com/blog/nabina_nag/2011/03/27/two_years_on_os_-_stock_taking): "I remember that you chastised me when I gave up on OS a while back, just drained by it. I know it’s not easy to ignore the nastiness, especially when one is painted as the nasty one and lots of people pile in. Try to rise above it and keep posting your little personal pieces and great photographs. OS has great potential to teach Americans about the rest of the world."
Attacks are common. Look:
tr ig
which made me sad and wonder, why did he even bother to respect that impetuous, puerille comment with a response??? But dangerous things are going on on OS as is evident from this comment by another long timer:
I despair you have already lost too many key writers through issues like this and the failure of management to address a more serious problem : people who use OS to destroy others' lives.
About OS Content - Falling Standards? Who Is Responsible?
A long time OS er wrote to me a four days back:
"It seems all anyone talks about here is their dysfunctional childhoods, their failure to get an education, their failed relationships, their failed marriages, their autistic kids, their failed careers, their bankruptcies, their evictions, their foreclosures, their illnesses, and more illnesses, and more illnesses, and more illnesses..."
Recently, there was this post that featured some unique pointers to put the Libyan engagement in perspective. Noticing very few readers or rates, I took it that people might have missed it, so, as is the custom here, I had written in to some OS ers that I knew were interested in serious writing. I had written:
"Since we are always discussing standards falling over here, I would like it if we all got together to read and rate a well researched post when it comes up."
In response, I got half a dozen letters, one writer I used to respect once, wrote this to me:
"... their editorial decisions can't be based on what what you or me or Padraig might think is high quality."
Huh????
Are Editors kings and we, the readers and writers, slaves of their whims?
Editors are just people - like you and me!!! Editors are paid staff. They do not OS make! Their job is to HLEP manage the place so the writers can write in peace and readers get quality content. It is not THIER job to TELL US what is good. We decide what is good and we as consumers ASK for it. If they refuse to listen we CLAMOUR for what we want. For, It is us that supplies free content. Us that read and keep this place alive. And it is our being here that in the long run generate revenue!!!
Revenue not only depends on quality of content, but on the number of subscribers (which is why Kerry posted that update about how many we are here now). Revenue also depends on how many advertisers decide to advertise here. They decide on the basis of what kind of people read the blogs here and how many use the site. If they find it is predominantly local American, they might not want to advertise. Large corporates want INTERNATIONAL views, cross country broad base clientele!
So, naturally what OS posts on Cover is of crucial importance!!! And WE, as users of this place, must not shirk our responsibility to help the management with appropriate content and suggestions!!!
Any democracy works on that principle - Salon is Media in a democracy - it is imperative that members participate!!! And ENGAGE. And come together in times of CRISIS. If OS is in financial crisis - we engage, in discussing ways to bring in money or improve standards to make it viable ineternationally. Remember competitors are blogging giants like Word Press!
Anyway, I just cannot fathom why something like a repost of an YouTube song without a word in the post gets a rating of 16 and a well written post does not even make 7 here.
Which advertiser would even want to look at a You Tube repost? So, why would stocks of OS not go down? If OS prices are falling, we the writers and managers of content ARE responsible.Can you deny that?
No matter where or in what capacity you are on the world wide web, CONTENT is KING! Good content comes out of an engaging readership. Readers community that take the trouble to write REAL critique, adding to the value of a post through ASSENT OR DISSENT! Fighting like school kids or trying to be nice like old grannies.Or being lazy and leave a non committal "Good, rated" does not improve standards or make for a creative or robust writing environment.
I remember how once Mishima (a truly robust voice on OS) had written a post about gay marriage and I was new then and had engaged in a long and passionate debate countering his view about gay marriage, even taking on a couple of other commenters on that blog, in the end, writing a whole separate blog on the issue of gay marriage and yet Mishima never held a grudge against me personally and heated debate was possible at that time without getting personal or nasty.
Debate, passionate debate is the life blood of the writer's community. It shows someone is reading us closely and that inspires writers to do better!
When I think, I have questions, when I have questions, I want answers, when they do not satisfy me, I contend, and that makes ideating possible and makes it worth the while to be WITH intelligent people. Debate not only enriches the community but it adds layers to the content itself. Otherwise why would one bother?
But here, now, there seems to be an air of fear, everyone is always so boringly conventional and politically correct or naive or banal or quiet....or worse still, DEFENSIVE.
I could not understand WHAT Forsythe's grouse was about various people doing Spam Control on OS - or why Stella had to leave even when she had such fierce supporters and friends here.
When you left, Stella, you empowered the very person that did not deserve to be empowered in that way. Do you realize that?
Preserving the sanctity of the writer's community is the writers' responsibility.
If you quit, give up and leave, you commit the crime of not respecting your own work or your readers' sentiments.
To Stella I would like to ask, was this person you were angry with, your ONLY reader? Was this person your friend? Well, then why did you give this person so much importance over people that genuinely liked your work, read you patiently, took the trouble to comment or give you feedback? They did not matter to you, when you decided to leave this space right? You do not care - do you - about your craft or your readers - or why would you not stay back and fight - you were not alone!
To Mishima this is what I have to say, it is sad that you actually had to write another whole post to clarify your position- you had not done anything wrong - you could have used that time and energy to have done a whole new original post. That you had to write this post reflects badly upon us readers. It shows we are bad readers. Catherine, I respect you and like a lot of people here, am grateful and appreciative of the long hours you put in working for free, but if you had not closed comments when you posted your upset post, the matter could have been clarified right then and there.Mishima is not your enemy and you both have been here for ages and know each other! What kind of example are you setting to the new comers?
Readers are not only careless and indifferent and patronising while reading foreigner's posts, they are also careless with posts generally. Often a reader will just browse through the last few or the first few lines and dash off a patronising or damaging comment depending on whether they like or dislike the PERSON with no discernible concern for the content. Not everyone blogging here even understand the medium.
Which makes me think that if the serious writers left, all the robust voices would be gone and there would be nothing left on OS - and a unique, very special blogging site would die an untimely death (e.g. VOX etc). For OS is special.
Open Salon combines blogging with the prowess of community building - in some ways, it is WP and FB combined.
Who wants to be with a wall? Or a mop or a sponge?
Stella, I am NOT attacking you, in case you have that idea (why would I?) all am saying is that this is a community and as such it is our responsibility to see that members remain safe and they do not leave because they feel vulnerable. It is our loss that you are gone. It would be great if you returned to write and fight and be fair to those that did admire you, is what am saying.
Reading or writing is interactive and rewarding when minds can engage in meaningful exchange - otherwise it becomes a dull exercise, passive act and lazy act, like watching TV.
"We the people are fired-up. The air is filled with toxic and hateful speech. Some seem to believe they have an absolute right to say whatever, whenever and wherever they please. They are wrong. "
""Call out the instigators because the revolution's here""
Tom Cordle, had written that, albeit in a different context, but they apply here, nonetheless. Tom, am sad that you no longer listen that well these days....and you used to be the one that had once advocated we all study History!
PS: For those that are interested, I have added Gail Williams' blog for you to go check out her post on the influencers, and how they had a Salon within a Salon kind of a place called The Well. I had discovered this when I had come here and was exploring this place. Then it simply meant that the writers or the coterie needed a private place, so The Well, now, in the light of all that is going on, thought I would remind you of it. So, yes it is possible to have portals leading in but separated from the main OSC.


Salon.com
Comments
I was not here when that happened, I have not been a witness to the event, I only heard the story, therefore, I have to rely on your answers, on your thoughts. Feel free to berate me, come give me a chance to argue it out with you, until am convinced that it is ok to let writers go feeling bad. Even in ordinary homely situations, do you like someone to leave you with a bad feeling in their minds? I don't.
And er..."Well, hmm. I see where you get your name" - not sure what that is supposed to mean. "Rolling"? Comes from an old trekker's adage that says A Rolling Stone Gathers No Moss but Chips Away at the Edges until it Weakens and then Rolls off the Edge Somewhere to Oblivion. Er well I made up the last bit but so what? Everything we do in life is about living well and about nurturing life - even blogging is part of that larger engagement. think philosophically and give me all your thoughts so we understand each other better and have a chance to iron out differences. I could post one good Indian song for every thought of yours in lieu of pennies - how about that?
As for rolling - I was thinking more of the steam version than the non-mossy rock. But not in a bad way!
Your heart is in the right place. But when we enter the blogosphere, one of the first things we discover is that "living well and nurturing life" is not necessarily at the top of everyone's list. Once they are exempted from public disgrace via the anonymity of the web, many bloggers exhibit a kind of cruel streak, wishing only to discredit, to undermine, to humiliate and to hurt others. Entering the world of blogging, we lose our last vestiges of innocence about human nature. We discover true character — and the failure of character — in our fellows.
I take serious issue with your condemning Alysa, one of the best contributors here and always upbeat.
If you want to partake in choosing and promoting bloggers, have a look at http://open.salon.com/blog/phoenixbobafett/2011/04/08/open_call_-_protest_contest_improving_open_salon_-_gfy_fri
Teeheehee!!
"What kind of example are you setting to the new comers?"
Very bad ones. But look, I wrote a tribute piece of Don Johnson and I've giving up fighting the Spammers, I welcome them now as legit writers especially on the theories of Radical Assumptions of Radium Molecules and its Effects on Universal Thought.
That stuff just blows my mind!! GAWD!!!
By the way, Drew is the Christ and the Anti-Christ, says so on her webpage!
P.S.
What's wrong with posting just YouTube videos? If it get read, then, well, it's the readers' fault, not mine!! PFFFFT!!!
:D
**wanders off into the thorn bushes**
Wait, how did you find out Mumble and Nana were ducks?
Oh yeah, black cat.....hypnotic eyes, super powers, gotcha!! ;D
~wanders off again~
Tink, what are you wearing right now?
~giggle~
Wink! Wink!
So get yourself over here, I got some ice cream!! Wink! Wink! nudge! Nudge!
MMMMMMM mmmmmmm MMMMMM!! I'M HOT FOR ICE CREAM, AND TEACHERS, AND GUYS NAMED SYNE!!!
Wait, is this thing on? It's not?
Damn camera man!! How are we suppose to make OPEN:THE PORNO without the damn camera on.
HI NANA, what are YOU wearing?
Black tight mini skirt and a tshirt that reads 'COME AND GET SOME....HORN BUSTERS!!!'?
That's HAWT!!! GIGGLE!!
I like goose too.
I never could do the lewd emo --- mine looks like I have painful hemmroids more than lewd.
Let me try
.(
Damn it, that's POKED MY EYE OUT WITH A TROUT
Okay, last time
>:^P
Woooooo!! Pretty close!! It says I'M NOT LAUGHING AT YOUR SMALL PEEPEE, I'M LAUGHING AT THE JOKE YOU TOLD AT DINNER --- LAST WEEK......I WAS PRETTY HAMMERED!!!
There....:D
Tink, listen to me and do exactly as I say. Take your left nipple between your right thumb and index finger and twist it counterclockwise while saying "Will that be one scoop or two?" Sorry for being so specific but it's important we get this right.
Wanna ***BEEP***? I WANNA ***BEEP***!
Jesus I hate the EDITED FOR BROADCAST VERSIONS OF PORN!!!!!!!
Gawd!!!!!
"Would you like sprinkles with that?"
**SECOND VIOLATION OF THE TERMS OF SERVICE, THIRD VIOLATION AND YOUR ACCOUNT WILL BE DELETED. TINK, YOUR THIRD VIOLATION HAS BEEN DISCOVERED, YOU ALSO HAVE NUMEROUS ACCOUNTS LISTED ---- INCLUDING NAUGHTY GIRL NEEDS LOVE TOO AND WANKPUDDLE BOOM BOOM FUK. YOUR ACCOUNT HAS BEEN REMOVED...THANK YOU AND HAVE A WONDERFUL EVENING**
:(
Not a lot....cause we'll see you in China in August for the Spam-A-Live reunion!!!
Has Tink really been nuked? It was only a matter of time I guess, especially since the Cheez-Whiz incident.
I have scilla, daffs, crocus, and iris blooming *happy dance*
and a complete and utter mess of a yard that needs hours and hours of grooming *unhappy twitching*
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/55246/
Many people here feel free to use PMs to further "debate" and some mistake debate with fight. We all feel entitled to our own opinion, mistaking our beliefs and emotions for informed opinion. Bating people into an argument is not discussion. If people don't find your work interesting to read, that is ultimately your own responsibility. It could be style, grammar, content, tone, theme, subject, length, clarity. Some great writers here get boring (as I am sure I bore people with my "discussions". Intent is a should, and like other shoulds, are very subjective. If people consistently misread you, you need to reflect on your writing style. Communication takes one person. If you can't communicate to your intended audience, the problem lies with you. Hard words, as it also means we must look at all of our personal interactions. No one owes you listening, a meme from the Landmark Education series, is deeply true. Every time someone listens (or reads), they have chosen to engage. I do wish the editors had a little more variety in their choices, but they pick cover pieces that the average random viewer will find interesting. I also wish we could have a block reader/comment to keep our stalkers at bay.
Wish I could find a bright blue flower for July and August.
I have a really tiny yard, so have to keep it to smallish plants. Morning glories are good for larger yards, but in mine one plant manged to not only swallow my plum tree and half kill it, but also smothered most of my tomatoes that year.
anyhow, yeah, I could probably babble about my poor untended yard for hours (instead of getting out there and actually working on it)....sorry Nabina!
Tink, you're a DIRTY DIRTY BASKIN ROBBINS WHORE!
laugh, Myriad, heck yeah, dog poop city here- but I got that covered. I have to or my beloved neighbors call the yard police on me. 3 directions? Wiccan?
Larry, hydrangea will be different colors depending on the acidity of the soil....with my luck they'd be pale pink in this yard
But I'm now putting a garbage bag and muzzle on over my throw-away clothes and going to vacuum the crap out of my back porch where I did some demolishing of insulated walls...it's still nice and bright there...then a bath and back to the fray. Keep fraying!
Iris are blue, scilla are blue- everything else is kinda half assed. I want color, not crap.
Hey Nan, we can't burn around here - snow isn't all gone and already a burn-ban is on... (I don't burn anyway...oh wait a minute, I've hauled a bunch of old stalks and fallen branches and stuff down to the fire-pit...I just don't set the whole damned garden on fire, tho it sounds like a plan...)
I'd post some too, but my rear is rooted to my computer chair at the moment...maybe tomorrow
what do you do with it after you burn it?
i thought there was something here worth talking about, but the more i analyzed, the less there was. rather like os, as i think about it.
I respect and admire your desire to improve the quality of discourse here on OS. Problem is, that's not the American Way. Kerry brags about the six million as tho' that is an improvement, because to the American mind, bigger is always better.
The aim of OS is numbers, and thus advertising revenue, while you and I and others lament the debasing of the product itself. Warning: We will not win. Contrary to capitalist dogma, quality almost never triumphs in our free-market economy -- quantity almost always does. So mgmt invites the teeming masses to share their recipes, their favorite TC shows, and lingering resentments of their childhoods.
That said, this place wasn't built to satisfy my wants and needs, and it is my responsibility -- not management's -- to find what I want and need here ... or hit the road. At this moment, I have no intention of leaving OS, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if OS left us all -- I don't see how their business model can be sustained.
On a personal note, I'm sorry that you and I disagree over my last post, but to suggest I've suddenly became a poor listener because of that one post seems to be stretching things waaaay too far. I try my best to provide a thoughtful response to all comments on my posts -- but I don't agree just to seem agreeable or make friends or build readership -- I'm here to speak my mind. I confess I sometimes do so with curt or cute responses when trolls return repeatedly after they've made their point.
Always remember, you get out of a site what you put in, we mostly put in fertillizer, so we get out pretty flowers!!
Good night!!
"Dear Nabina,
Could I give you a friendly word of advice?
You say: “I love this place.”
You say that OS is very important to you and I respect that but you seem to me to be over-intense about it at present....
don’t know if I really buy the idea of an OS community but there are a lot of people here who I get on with. Sometimes they will say things I disagree with and sometimes they will take up with people I don’t like. If one DOES want to be part of a community one has to observe certain rules of etiquette.
Did you see how your post degenerated in to an exchange of fluff by the “community” totally ignoring you? Tom Cordle was one who took you seriously...
Don’t expect so much of OS.
Best wishes,
Padraig"
Padraig, the fluff served to buffer. I remember when we went for rallies, while we sat there on our hunger strikes, we did not talk "serious" - we talked shop - we spent hours playing or staring at the sky - sometimes, what matters is the presence, they were here, they kept this visible all night while I slept and that is what matters. That none of the 'friends' or people that constantly talk about quality bothered to come and vote for the changes shows lack of awareness about such issues as these:
a) International audience means numbers
b) with NUMBERS, comes revenue and improvements to site
c) So, without numbers, or the right sponsors, OS might have no option but to sell out or make this a PAID site
d) Paid blogging might not attract good writers per se
Their not coming here also shows the point Disco Fett is making at his blog, that people here do not look at content, they look at WHO is writing it and vote accordingly. If this post was written by Tom Cordle or Saturn Smith or Old New Lefty, there would hundreds of thousands of "yes, I agree, lets know where to sign" responses :)
As for Tom, no he did not take me seriously, he clearly mentions "since I'm mentioned several times in this post, I think you deserve a response", and NOT bec of the issues I had written about.
I have no ILLUSIONS about OS or people, Padraig, but yes, I DO love this place, it is DIFFERENT and most people genuinely nice. You included. I am not scolding you, merely responding and addressing your concerns that I might have been ignored.
None of these people are my enemies, Padraig, and none of these people have time to waste, if they stayed here all night, it was part of a design and that I have reason to believe, was NOT meant to IGNORE the issues I raised here or DEBASE ME. :)
The friends that did not come to support the issues I raised or even to give it a cursory read, debased me, I think. Bec, if any of these things come through, everyone benefits, if they get money, the site tech improves, the spam gets cut off, the cover improves, their posts stay visible longer etc.
Julie if you're around, pm for Blue Leschnaultia seeds ( a W Aus wildflower - hardy & spectacular. )
Drew-Silla is a 'they', Nana's first comment gets a woo-hoo, and I vote with the commenters that agree Stellaa left b/c she wanted to, elder-status notwithstanding.
Ok, back to vacation!
And so, Fett, please hurry, let's see another Well before we leave or die, and kindly do NOT engage with the old timers, at this stage, just quietly do your thing, with people that volunteered to support you.
If Fett succeeds, it would:
1) get some money for OS, so they can invest in tech dev
2) get more traffic to posts
3) make archiving easier, indexing possible
4) make it easier to find specific content
5) get good content of universal international interest in one place
1) We are responsible for maintaining standards here
2) Editors are only just people and cannot always be relied on to take good and correct decisions regarding standards - sometimes readers and consumers need to speak up about what we wsih to have
3) Cover needs to feature content that appeals to International Readers
4) International Readership would generate revenue that they say OS is lacking in as of now.
5) Revenue would mean better tech dev and improved standards
6) And no one shd have to leave bec they feel violated by another member of the community.
7) If they are, then there should at least be a public apology by whoever caused that member to leave. (If defaming was public, apology should also be public. Humanity of a humane enterprise like blog-community should not be allowed to be compromised.
And it is not the Editor's job to do that, it our job, the user's, to do that. Like Mishima said about the Ham Radio groups, they had their own standards, own code of ethics, blogging should be no different.
Editors are paid staff, they come and go. We are members that use this medium, we generate content, we are people that therefore, ought to take that onus ourselves. Not write PMs to the Editors.
Now, are we on the same page? And thanks for the corrections there :)
Can we - some of us at least that care about well researched good content - make sure that people like Padraig do not stop writing here bec no one reads or rates his posts? When I had mailed his link, could they not have been there and given the post a cursory read even and rate? It was a good post!!!! He had done a lot of work on it. even though it ws not pro America or even Pro British in its stance. But so what? Info is info, right? Chicago Guy claims he is a great admirer of Padraig, so I sent him the link, he did not even bother to read it !!! Just PMed me saying it cant be on Cover since similar things have been published, and Iwasnt even asking for it to be on Cover, I don't care about the Cover at all! All I had done was requested some people that know Padraig to read that post, that's all
And This post was about why OS stock is falling, and how OS could make some money, by altering the Cover content. Have you noticed all the Indian writers have stopped posting serious content here?
Wait just a darned minute, ep2. I'll put the drivel le Plongeur and elle Sacapenises crank out up against any you can find on the internet any day.
I have addressed the editors several times and once I got a pat on the head and was sent off to play with no response to my real question.
I take no issue with your post. I find your points valid, Rolling. I have no knowledge of The Well, so I guess I don't have the connections I thought I did have.
One more thing I'd like to say.There is much I have learned while on OS. I knew next to nothing about politics before joining OS, and now I have some knowledge about this system that's supposed to be a democracy.I'm certainly not an expert, but at least I know something about the political system. So the potential and value of OS is very important to me.
I usually don't read others' comments, so please excuse any repetition.
R
See, if you write a TV review(Odetteroulette used to do that once upon a time and I never could make sense of it at all even though I liked her) I would not know what you are talking about bec you and I do not get the same feed. We were saying let topics of general interest be on Covers to attract readers, advertisers, and let the sidebars feature internal local stuff. Autism qualifies as a matter of general interest. But repeated issue of how a middle class middle aged American that should have known better anyways recovering from his addiction is not good Cover material worldwide.
"Revenue not only depends on quality of content, but on the number of subscribers"
Unfortunately, judging from the popularity of reality TV there is an inverse relation to the quality of content and its revenue. Ditto for the quality of content and the number of subscribers.
But rated for fierceness :-)
Again, I didn't mean to depress you. We all have different reasons for writing here, and I suppose we'll continue until the bad outweighs the good. Much of what is published here one can find on average blogs all across the webosphere: personal musings, political ramblings, and a millenial supply of snark. Maybe things are going according to Mother Salon's plans, but my personal belief is that they are either not willing or not able to improve the platform, further restrict membership, and curate blogs with a more critical eye toward the kind of readership/writership you (and some days I) would like to see. On the other hand, the scads of eyeballs this site has attracted combined with whatever ad revenue OS derives may best explain why things are the way they are. This is not an insult, just my opinion. OS always said it existed for writers to have an outlet, and to that end they have succeeded, and I am greatful for the opportunities and readership I developed here. I hope you do visit again. In the sidebar I've linked some of my favorite posts I've written.