"Does Criticizing Israel Make Me An Anti-semite?"
People wiser and more eloquent than I have addressed that question, but in light of recent events in the Mideast, and of subsequent discussions of those events here in Open, I feel the need to ask it myself, and to attempt to answer it.
It irritates me when people who are incapable of defending their position (whatever that position may be) with reason and facts resort to the sort of cheap name-calling exemplified by calling others "unAmerican" or "Nazis" or anti-semites, or whatever, so in the interest of open debate I'm going to enter these dangerous waters. I've seen people in OS who are afraid to express their opinions about Israel and Palestine for fear of being called a racist and worse, but I don't intend to be one of them.
To begin with, I need to say that I'm neither a conservative nor a "leftist", nor do I attach much importance to those labels in an objective sense. I form my opinions based on realities and on the most accurate information I can find, not on worldviews rooted in dogma. Something I encounter over and over again in online discussions - starting with the Israel/Palestine issue but not limited to it - is people who are incapable of thinking and of viewing the world outside of the prism of their ideology. I've been called an anti-semite and a hater of Israel for expressing reservations about the policies and actions of its government, and I've also been called a Zionist from the other camp for not condemning Israel across the board.
The bottom line is that far too many people are incapable of thinking without referencing the talking points they get from whichever echo chamber they spend the most time in. Someone on Open Salon for instance took me to task yesterday for not loving the US and Israel enough. I was astonished to find that one of the metrics of loyalty to my native country is apparently an unqualified love for Israel. The same person who said my affection for Israel wasn't strong enough and that I was obviously an anti-semite then mentioned a post I once wrote about Rachel Corrie, and went on to make some disaparaging remark about her to the effect of "little girls shouldn't lie down in front of bulldozers." It was interesting to me that his rancor was directed at an idealistic young woman who was killed while trying to help others and not at the government which, while in the process of demolishing people's ancestral homes, crushed her to death under tons of steel. The person then claimed that writing in an admiring way about Rachel was de facto proof that I was a supporter of Hamas and a terrorist lover. When I attempted to point out that I had no use for Hamas and that I didn't hate Israel at all, he shot back "You. Hate. Israel."
"You. Hate. Israel."
This sort of "logic" is used by a lot of people, not just those on the Right, and not just in the debate about Palestine. When someone is persuaded that a thing is true because they believe it to be so, and that if they say it often enough it makes it even more true, it's indicative of a lack of ability or a disinclination to view the world in any other way but black and white. It's a way of thinking that reduces any topic under discussion to a zero sum game, and is a major contributor to the ever-worsening political polarization of this country.
The constant stream of propaganda flowing from AIPAC (which is enthusiastically seconded by many on the Christian Right), coupled with an unwillingness to recognize that wrong is wrong no matter who does it, or to realize that the interests of the Likud Party don't necessarily coincide with the interests of the United States, lies at the heart of the rancorous nature of the debate here. The inevitable result of all this is accusations of "anti-semitism" even when such accusations are patently inaccurate, or accusations of being a terrorist lover - or of being a Zionist for that matter, even though most people so labeled have no dog in that particular fight.
Far too many people aren't capable of the kind of critical thinking which might allow them to see that the official version of events, whether from the US government or Israel (or from Hamas and Iran for that matter), is often made up of distortions, half-truths, and outright lies. Even many people who are capable of multi-leveled, rational thought on a wide range of topics have too much invested in their ideologically or religiously based worldview to allow them to discuss Israel without resorting to slander and grossly inaccurate, unfair epithets.
Another impediment to rational debate on this topic is an automatic, exaggerated, knee-jerk defensiveness on the part of many supporters of Israel whenever the government of that country does something stupid and obviously wrong. The inevitable last (or often first) resort of this sort of person is name-calling and calumny, with the intention of silencing the voices of any who'd dare to question their views.
I love my country, always have and always will, and that is exactly why I'm willing to recognize its flaws as well as its strengths. It seems to me that if I'm free to criticize my own country when it's in the wrong, I (and anyone else who approaches the topic fairly) should be equally free to criticize Israel without fear of being tarred as an anti-semite.
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Comments
I wish people understood this. _r
If someone called the US "occupiers" I wouldn't say they were anti-american.
As for you being "unAmerican" or a "Nazis" or anti-semitic, nah. Now if they called you a dick weasel... that I could get behind (and don't even think that I can't document THAT, dude!)
There's no one at OS who is more eloquent and wiser than you. Period.
There apparently are some here who are fanatics and they have nasty teeth.
I fought for the right of everyone to speak their minds. That never called for me to pick and choose, but now I can.
It is time for us to reexamine our support of Israel. It was time when Israel supported Apartheid, started the settlements, did horrific and inhuman violence in Lebanon based on lies, spied on America and covered for a driver who ran down and killed children in New York.
Even Turkey, one of the first countries to support Israel in 1949, has had it with a country that has gone mad. They are mad, not inferior.
I feel for Helen Thomas, who through her own stubbornness, stayed far beyond her expiration date and blurted out those unconscionable and horrible words, but no one reports that Helen Thomas is the daughter of Lebanese immigrants.
Our criticism of Israel is identical to our criticism of South Africa and our criticism of Nazi Germany. They have gone mad and have lost their humanity.
I still ask, however: Why isn't there a staging port for clearing humanitarian relief vessels and having the USN escort them?
Nice post Nana, and it's damn sad that you can't dissent without the first thing out of some people's mouth being 'Nazi!' it's BS and we all know it.
Robin, I definitely get that the government of a nation is separate from the people of that nation. You can disagree with the first without hating the second, which is the entire point of this post. Thank you!
Amanda; exactly so.
SafeBet, thanks for not thinking I'm a Nazi. Regarding the dick weasel thing, I'm sure you could document it easily enough, just as I could easily document that you're a shrill, self-righteous bitch;-)
Lady M; huge difference indeed.
Z, you're (as always) far too kind. Regarding Helen, she spoke her true feelings about a hot-button topic, and that's as big a sin in the press as it is in government.
It does seem that a sane way to screen cargoes going into Gaza could be devised, one that doesn't involve murdering civilians on unarmed vessels in international waters.
Rita, it's divise in the extreme, which is why it's difficult to discuss, and is also exactly why it should be discussed.
Doug, Nazi is an interesting slur, because it's often used by both sides in a given debate to slam those in the other camp.
Robin, I'm not sure I'm a peacemaker as such - there are plenty who'd see it otherwise - but I do believe in the value of discussing difficult issues.
Duane, you're right, the views of people whose minds are already made up (fanatics in other words) don't mean squat, yet I resent the way they try to shut down debate among more rational people.
Fernsy; I'll drop on by!
Tichaona, as Zuma says it's a loaded question, but I'll go there. The Semites, in ethno-linguistic terms, were and are a diverse group of peoples who've inhabited the Mideast for many thousands of years. In modern times the term is used to describe Jews, whether in Israel or elsewhere, and the Arabs are of course Semites too. The ancient Sumerians, Babylonians, Edomites, Phoenicians, and dozens of other tribes and ethnic groups were also Semites.
As Israel's strongest and most consistent ally, we need to take a more nuanced position on Israel's policies.
That is, we can still be an ally. We can still cooperate. But we can't simply and blindly support whatever their current government policies are regarding Palestinians.
The either/or, black and white polarization strikes me as unnecessary.
Quite the high wire act with so many people waiting for you to slip-up, so they could strike with their flaccid swords stupidity.
Name calling and labeling is a sign of the ignorant bliss theory.
When you come to a battle of words armed only with stones, what else are you to do but throw stones?
It has to be someone who has no heart, no children.
WTF...
Nana, my friend, I know you as a man who identifies himself without outside help and accepts crap from no one.
May be exist forever in that guise!
(Honestly, some names are equivalent to the "N" word and should not be cast around like rice at a wedding.)
If the Israelis would have been any other country, they would be called pirates and murderers.
But those words are not mentioned here.
If words are true should they be said in the open??
Yes. let the chips fall where they may.
Arabs and Israelites. Yes, they're both from the same ethnic group. Problem is that most Jews are of European ethnicity and re-defined "semite" to mean Jew. It doesn't mean that.
for me, condemnation of israel has nothing to do with the religion of judaism unless that religion is used as a justification for the atrocities I believe Israel is guilty of. i'm against injustice where it's black like mobutu, semite like netanyahu (sp) or white like clinton or even a combination like obama.
to quote mlk: injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Rated.
I'm starting to think they might be correct about you. You probably ARE an anti-semite!
That means you hate big, 18 wheel trucks, right? Most likely hate pick-up trucks, too. Hell, I bet you own a damn Yugo, don't ya, punk!
criticizing any government (israel's, ours, the palestinians') or its policies is always fair game. applying that criticism to an entire populace or the country it governs can be dicey or plain wrong, depending on the circumstances. it's like saying every american believed in and supported the horrific policies of the bush administration. it's fair that our country took the heat for what bush did since he was elected (let's not reargue that one) via democratic process and was the legitimate head of the US. the same goes for bibi n. and israel. and the palestinians and whoever is their leader at any given time.
last time i looked, it's pretty hard to be absolutely right 100 percent of the time, forever and ever. that means that sometime, once in a while, someone or some group or some side i believe in is going to be wrong. as far as i'm concerned, i can still be a supporter and call them on it.
great writing and even better reasoning, jeff. too bad there's been so much said/written that wasn't. it doesn't advance the discussion much.
My first trip ever overseas was to Sydeny in 1997. It was also my first experience with vocal anti-American sentiment. I was a little worried but my friends assured me they were anti-Amercian-government-policies and NOT anti-Amercian people. It made sense to me! They loved Americans, and proceeded to show me MUCH love and fun while never really toning down criticism of some of our policies (and politicians) when we'd discuss it.
I totally get your point and it seems OBVIOUS to me, too. Highly rated.
We not only ARE allowed to criticize governments, we NEED to be ever vigilant of them because they rarely have the best interests of those they are suppose to "serve" at heart.
I've said it a lot - criticizing Israel's actions and policies does not make one anti-semitic. Just like criticizing Al Quaeda does not make one anti-muslim. Just like criticizing GW does not make one anti-American.
People need to grow the fuck up and stop flinging bullshit - if you want to discuss, then discuss the facts. Debate the facts. Leave the labeling elsewhere.
I am personally more open to critical discussion since my husband and I at times will "criticize" for instance, our sons. We are not anti-son, or anti-children, and to make it more personal, we are not anti-Chris or anti-Will. Heck, we aren't even anti-parenting. Our sons know that we love them - yet we "judge or discuss the merits & faults" of them from time-to-time. If our children were not sure of how we honestly feel about them, they might consider us to be anti-them.
The criticism in and of itself in my opinion does not make you "Anti" anything. Only you know how you feel about those you are critiquing.
r- for nads
The analogy doesn't work at all, either.
I'll stop with that so it doesn't get personal :-)
You sick misguided mother trucker, if you wanted me that bad, all you had to do was asked!! ~pout~
~wanders off to hide under his bed~
Unfortunately Israel makes that a bit difficult. I believe it is the only nation, that equates it's citizens with a religion. If you say something against the nation of Israel, you are automatically condemning Judaism. There lies the problem!
I use the term Nazi a lot, to describe people who force their ideas upon others. As a German American, I often get accused of being anti-semitic. When I criticize Israel, it is because I feel a country founded by people who were subjected to horrific persecution. They should be more aware, of how they treat others. I feel they are treating the people of Palestine, no better than they were treated for years in Europe.
And Amy; guilty as charged! Although I do drive a three-tone primer gray '90 Ford Ranger, I'm a self-loathing truck owner, and the sight of a Peterbilt makes me want to don my jackboots and annex the Sudetenland.
Rachel Corrie... am I to believe that Mr. Home Crushing Bulldozer Operator couldn't have put his machine in neutral for a minute, got off of it and dragged her skinny Irish ass out of the way?
Am I to believe that the fuckers just HAD to board those ships in international waters last week, via helicopter, at night? Oh sure, once they had already done that and some Turks got pissed they HAD to shoot them. They had no choice, right? They were just defending Israel.
FUCK THAT! FUCK THAT! FUCK THAT!
No Jew, Arab, Infidel or
other human can convince me that "ISRAEL" couldn't have just set up a "roadblock" in waters that were NOT international, and not allowed those ships to dock... WITHOUT doing a commando raid on them in the middle of the night in open sea.
Nine more dead. The Palestinians as fellow humans have every right the Jews do. The Palestinians were not to blame for the holocaust. The Palestinians suffer at the hands of the Israeli government. Israel is amongst the worlds largest asshole government, following not too far behind the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in my humble opinion.
Everyone who is an anti-semite hates Israel. Why? Because by definition an anti-semite hates all Jews and Israel is a self-proclaimed Jewish state. But everyone who opposes Israeli policies is not an anti-semite. Why? Because Israeli policies are not the be all and end all, not the essence, not the substance, not the comprehensive expression, not the historical origin, not the final word, not even a necessary contingency of what it means to be Jewish. Hell, Israel doesn't even command the national affiliation of a majority of the world's jewry, the law of return notwithstanding.
To contest Israeli policy is not, as has been said here, to hate the people of Israel. But still less is it to hate Jews across the board. Unless one thinks that regardless of national origin, cultural tradition, regional influence etc, all Jews are "the same." And that, anti-semitic or not, would be racist.
The creation of Israel comes out of WW2 and the tactics of the cold war era, and it continues to perpetuate the barbarism of that totalitarian thinking- of being entitled by right of race or religion. I cannot support a country that defines itself by promoting rejection and hatred of others. Historically, the Middle East was mixed of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and instead has become another ground zero of blind zionism. These are not Jewish, Christian, or Muslim values. They are the values of radical militarism.
The last time I was in Europe Bush was still president. Americans were not very popular but I found that when I made it clear that the actions of my country (Iraq) did not reflect my views nor the views of many of my fellow Americans the animosity evaporated. My point is that many people were against some of our policies and actions but they were not really "anti-America."
I think the Palestinian people have suffered many injustices at the hands of the Israelis. Terrible things have been done. This does not make me a Jew-hater. I also think the Palestinians have had poor leadership and have retaliated against Israel in terrible ways. There is no justification for the terrorism that has been perpetuated against Israel, and the brainwashing of this population by fundamentalist maniacs that turns these naive misled people without hope into human bombs. Does that make me anti -Arab?
No.
I admire your restraint after being told that a post with your name in the title was "not about you." Huh?!
Jan; exactly so.
Pig Trailin, I couldn't have said it better myself.
Matt; thank you!
Libertarius, as I said over on Fernsy's blog, having a discussion with her is like trying to wrestle wet toilet paper. I guess I'm a masochist for even trying.
And Oryoki; it takes a first-hand witness like your Quaker friend to appreciate the reality on the ground over there. Thanks for sharing that perspective.
"I've read your posts on Israel. How does it feel to be blindly fronting for Hamas, a terror organization that your country's enemies support and back? Do you really hate America and Israel that much? Stop supporting terrorists."
and:
"I read your posts. Blantant left-wing propoganda talking points on Israel. Dumbass little girls supporting Hamas shouldn't lie down in front of dozers don't ya know... might get killed or don't they teach that to liberals these days."
and:
"Your (sic) a twit blindly hating Israel."
and of course:
"You. Hate. Israel."
Pardon me for taking any of that to mean you think I'm an anti-semite. Please tell me though, what do you think motivates this blind, unreasoning hatred of Israel of mine if it's not antisemitism? Does it tie into my supposed hatred of the USA? I do seem to remember you equated love of our country with love of Israel, so maybe that's it. I guess in the world you live in it's "America; Love Israel or Leave It (America That Is)."
And Pig; I stand corrected.
Especially when we all agree we will probably never get the whole story from any unbiased source, certainly not the media.
From where I sit (family of man as opposed to *anything* else) it's like watching beloved siblings and parents facing off, down and away. Family feuds are toxic for the usual reasons - but also because they're often impossible to mediate let alone influence or heal. And end them? HA!
I often get snarked at for saying I tend to ignore politics and religious discussions/disputes, told that I'm part of the problem.
But this 'problem' is as old as the world's denizens, and it will continue to be such long after I'm gone, at least as long as humans are human (imo). All I've decided to do is try to live my life in my corner of the world as peaceably as I can, and make an effort to allow others to do the same. Help when I can, support when possible, try to understand why others feel as they do, and tolerate those who are on different paths.
And leave those I can't find tolerance for to themselves.
Sometimes it works ;).
Rated for a rather calm observation of a thorny thing.
I just read J-M's post too for poorsinner. For Mike it seems liberal=jew hater=pansy who drives Prius.
;)
Pig, "liberal=jew hater=pansy who drives Prius" pretty much sums up Mike's position, and Poorsinner's too as near as I can see. For a lot of people, common sense and reality are secondary considerations at best. It's always easier and more fun to construct strawmen and stuff them in little pigeonholes than to actually think about something.
They all had weird names, and their kids had even weirder names.
If you want to mess with a baby's ( or a nation's ) head, name it after a character in the Old Testament.
Anyway, one of them was Shem, from whom all Semites descended. Which, getting of the ark, makes that pretty much all of us. At least a third of us. The rest are probably Chinese or from New Zealand.
And Poorsinner, we all need a break every now and then.
Poorsinner I have no clue of what you're talking about :-/.
Agreed Jan. Something which often puzzles me when an event like the flotilla raid occurs is the sheer unnecessary stupidity of it, and the great harm it does to the cause of the nation of Israel. And yet people inevitably leap into action and attempt to spin such actions as somehow being necessary for Israel's existence, even as it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that thuggisness and arrogance are counterproductive.
Natalie, thanks for saying better in three sentences what it took me this entire post to say.
And Dennis, I'll come have a look.
I fear peace will never come to the Middle east until the Israelis and the Palestinians each want peace more than they want to keep killing each other.
I see no country of origin on your page. Are you perhaps from Illinois? Polish even?
I must say, wherever you hail from or reside, that all this talk of critical analysis and thinking beyond the limitations of religious fervor is just ridiculous. We must support Israel no matter what they do, right or wrong.
Why you may ask? Just fucking because! Left wing suffragettes and Palestinians can kiss my behind, kind of like my Jewish hooker just did. That girl has skills I tell you!
It's a good start, but you will still need a Brit milah.
it is seldom mentioned, but palestine before the war was about 85% arab muslim, and even more semitic. palestine got less 'semitic' when the jews invaded in great numbers, refugees from the war.
i'm uninformed why 'anti-jew' isn't used, in spite of these well-known facts. any ideas?
Padraig, thanks for reading! A comment I left on your excellent post this morning formed the core of this one, so thanks for the inspiration. And yes, the need to reduce things to black and white isn't solely an attribute of the Right, nor of those who support Israel unreservedly. It's something you can observe on all sides of a given issue, and it gets in the way of having any sort of intelligent discussion on matters of importance. It impedes clarity of thought, something which is in desperately short supply in the era of the 24 hr news cycle and a strident, polarized, largely ineffective press. Your own posts, about Sri Lanka and other issues, have always been informative and balanced, the exact opposite of the kind of simplified thinking I'm attacking here, and I thank you for it.
Rod, as always you sicken me. There's no issue which you can't besmirch with your sleazy innuendo and the reek of cheap Scotch and stale cologne that wafts in with every comment you make.
Kim and Anthony; yes sometimes if you do it with enough vehemence, or probably not actually, and what's a Brit Milah?
Al, that's a loaded question, and I don't have any answer to it off the top of my head. I did say in an earlier comment:
" The Semites, in ethno-linguistic terms, were and are a diverse group of peoples who've inhabited the Mideast for many thousands of years. In modern times the term is used to describe Jews, whether in Israel or elsewhere, and the Arabs are of course Semites too. The ancient Sumerians, Babylonians, Edomites, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and dozens of other tribes and ethnic groups were also Semites."
It's interesting that "semitic" is chiefly used in modern contexts in a negative sense, not as a description of a people, as witnessed by terms like "anti-semite" and "anti-semitic."
Jay, it's just that semen is so snot-like and sticky and, well, gross:(
Anyone got any nukes just lying around???
Awesome!!!
**wanders off**
Tink, put a bunch of straw in the Gulf, that'll fix it, and in a pinch we can always go the nuclear route, just H-bomb the shit out the whole area, turn the entire ocean floor into a giant sheet of glass so we can see exactly where the oil is without having to use radar and stuff.
If a Brit Milah's what I think it is, I've already got one.
Or, just nuke it nanatejewhater... make it clear so we can just see the swimmin' oil and tap directly in. . Yeah, that's it! Damn
Baruch haba Mazal Tov. You will understand that once you have been critical enough.
That's just the name of the ceremony. I don't really know what the parts are called.
So far off topic I don't think I can come back. Speer's not Speerr's.
Speerr's was the real deal, they tell me.
"You can keep the tip."
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now that's humor.
So awesome!!
Oops, I mean, yeah, NUKE THE OCEAN FLOOR!!! PEOPLE FOR TURNING THE WORLD INTO ONE LARGE GLASS GLOBE!!!
Woooo!!
On the topic of jews, my best friend is jewish, his name is Jesus Chr...oh wait.....never mind....
~wanders off~
NUKE THE OCEAN FLOOR FOR PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOGOD IT'S TRUE!!
Tink me too - what's going on ? It's 6.55 here and I'm still getting through. Do you think someone might tell us, or should someone ask ?
I know, that would be awesome. Glenn Beck is the big hold out. Pfffffft!!
What were we talking about? Oh yeah, did I tell you, got a candiru catfish thingie up my penis while I was swimming in the Amazon last night. Hurt like hell....good thing I had sex with that transexual prostitute later on, teeheehee!!!!! Ole Sandee the Candiru is swimming up another peehole!!
Please Ed, don't turn the mop back on, I'll be good, I promise, no late night chats with Asian prostitutes, unless you say its okay!! Then...watch out!!!
Sorry, wrong script!!!
I AM IN LOVE WITH MY BEST FRIEND'S MOM!!! She makes the best pie ever!!!!
Lex vidoublereaux!
Shake me and I pee blood.
Wait, what?
Well, not well, there's like oil in the Gulf, I can't sleep without dreaming about stuff that I shouldn't be dreaming of, Rush Limbaugh got married....
Gawd, the world sucks!!!
Tichaona Chinyelu
Avery excellent question, and point! The term "semite" actually comes from the name of Shem, one of the sons of Noah from whom the Hebrew people of whom the Jews were only one of 12 tribes) and others as well were descendants. This would of course include all true Arabs, as they are descended from Ishmael, the first son of Abraham the Hebrew (not Jew) by the servant woman Hagar when his wife Sarah could not apparently bear children.
And so no, criticisng Israel does not make you anti-Semite, as there are many more Semites whom you are not criticisng nearly to the extent that you and others here criticise Israel. That would only seem to make you anti-Jew, or more specifically, anti-Israeli Jew. And perhaps that would not even be accurate.
But Ido have to wonder at the excessive criticism of Israel here and the apologetics on behalf of Islam. All Israel gets criticised for violence on its behalf, where all Islam is apologised for, attributing violence on its behalf to "radical extremists.." And that is the sort of prejudicial criticism that gets you and others called (erroneously) "anti-semitic."
If someone on here posts a blog about the bombing of hotels in Kenya by "borderless" Arabs and I came across it, I'd be as against that as I am against the Israeli government's daily move closer to committing crimes against humanity; that is, if they haven't crossed the line already.
Label me anti-pasta.
Henry, you say:
' I do have to wonder at the excessive criticism of Israel here and the apologetics on behalf of Islam. All Israel gets criticised for violence on its behalf, where all Islam is apologised for, attributing violence on its behalf to "radical extremists.." '
If you can find any instances of me being an apologist for violence committed by Muslims, I'd love to see them. You're using flawed logic when you imply that I've ever said such things; it seems to run something like "There are people who criticize Israel relentlessly while giving its enemies a free pass. Therefore, all criticism of Israel is being perpetrated by such people." Do you see the flaws in your reasoning there? I've never given a free pass to terrorism and attacks on civilians regardless of who does it, yet your comment implies that I have. That's not much different than the guy who I mentioned in this post who said the fact that I wrote about Rachel Corrie means I'm a supporter of Hamas. To which I say "Bullshit."
"part of being an American was the freedom to criticize the government and its policies"
It was, and (for the time being at least) still is. One of our policies that's definitely worth criticism is our unwavering support of the Israeli government, even when that government is engaging in practices which are detrimental to our own interests. Israel is and has for decades been the single largest recipient of US military aid, and that is in part what empowers them to do the things they do which rightly cause many to hate them, and by extension us for supporting them. I saw a comment a few days ago which I'll try to paraphrase here: "Israel is like America's spoiled, bratty little brother; it acts out in horrible, rotten ways sometimes because it knows big brother Uncle Sam will always back it in a pinch." The problem is in part the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC, which is so powerful that few in Washington have the balls to say or do anything to draw its ire. I've been encouraged in recent months though by some in the Pentagon, General Petraeus among others, who have had the courage to say openly that our blind support for "Israel, right or wrong", is doing harm to our own interests in the region. That's something which is patently obvious, but there are few public figures willing to say so openly.
Somebody has been reading my notes again!! Teeheehee!!
Seriously, where is the outrage on Today's main story, the election time around the country, Republicans calling each other "Not Conservative Enough!" Even FoxNews, a Republican network from way back, is making fun of these folks, even throwing a joke or two about teabagger envy. OH MY GAWD!!! OH NO SHE DIDN'T!!!!? Oh yes she did!!!
Hatred between groups is old as the hills themselves, Jews, Christians, some random white guys who like to wear bed sheets and burn crosses on their "Not of our kind" neighbors, it just is, if it wasn't, what the hell fun would it be on legit news organizations, would they talk about the love in breastfeeding of a Jewish fellow by a Muslim woman and how "in true nature" it was? And then someone, probably Tink, cause he's a glory hound, would post the video of the said incident and put underneath is, "THIS IS F*CKING SICK AND UN NATURAL!!" and then World War One would break out, a few years past the date it started in our Alternate Universe, where monkeys fly and Burger King have ribs. I know!! Just so f*cking wrong.
Here's my stance, everyone should hate each other, just on a reason of which version of God they worship, or their sexuality, or what the hell, if you ain't green, then I's hates you!!!! That's the order of things, and once you add in a government state with military and weapons, that's just icing on the goddamn cake, and if some old press lady wants to say, "GOD DAMN JEWS SHOULD GO BACK TO WHERE THEY BELONG, POLAND, GERMANY, NORTH DAKOTA!!!!" then well, welcome to the New Age of Fun in the Sun, f*ck the feel good sentiments of good will towards man, and give us nukes, world wide destruction from which we will never recover, a world of hate, anger and loads upon loads of videos of grown men being breast fed!!!!! For without these, we wouldn't have cool blogs like Dr. Amy's "Nana is a poo poo kitty fuck!" or Nana's response "Dr. Amy can suck my balls!!" and who could forget Tink's master piece, this comment!!!
God damn you all...
Just kidding, I love you all!!! Even the jews, Christians, the Muslims, those freaks from Wisconsin who believe that a dead crow is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, I mean, come on, if you're going to get reincarnated, wouldn't it be something cool, like alive?
Seriously, I don't understand any hatred based on something like the color of the skin, the religious stance of a person, a political affliation, sexual preference, etc. etc. How can we as a world do that?
Strange world indeed.
God damn us all, amen.
And I got my web cam all set up for my live blogging of my suicide. It's going to be awesome, I have the funeral plans too, Lindsay Lohan will be there, she's bringing the booze!!!
~more tears~ I can't wait when George W. Bush and Bill Clinton sing "My Way" along with Marilyn Manson.
Show stopper I tell you!!! ~even more tears~
FREE THE RED TAILED JACKASS!! ~police drag off Tink from the microphone~ ;)
Sorry I missed the orgy. OS stayed up all night? Cool.
NUKE THE GAY BABY RED-TAILED NAZI JACKASSES!!!!!
Sirenita, thanks for reading! Yeah, it was weird, OS stayed up past the witching hour this morning, I think someone forgot to unplug the server from the powerstrip behind the entertainment center.
It's a coin toss right now!!!
**wanders off to cruise porn**
Yeah! I love the world enough to say out loud...."MOTHER MARY WAS A VIRGIN WHORE!!!!" Man, I sooooo want to put together a goth metal band and have that as our first hit single!! Rick Dees could scream that out or even Dick Clark, if he's still able too. I miss the gold old days of a young, vibrant Dick Clark!!!! :(
But far worse: As a journalist in Jerusalem, the then right wing Jerusalem Post, then the only paper in English at the time had this powerful guy who hated anyone to the left of him which was just about everyone.
Whenever a journalist was not Israel-Right -Never- Wrong, he'd just make up lies. (I think he was the editor or publisher and I don't even remember his name.)
One morning I opened that paper and there on page one but not a headline was my name and I was accused of helping the Hamas learn how to make bombs.
All my journalist friends told me to never answer him because he always had the last word, and called this my "initiation." Okay he was comically so wrong but I managed to digest and more than less forget it. Then this random ABSURD comment was picked up on the internet and for years it was there under my name (there are about 7 women with my name which was small confort.) I was sure I'd be held up at airports or denied rights or worse. I kept trying to get them to understand that I can't put a meal together, am completely non-violent and have never held any weapon and etc.
That with a gun to my head, I would have not a clue about making bombs. FINALLY the thing disappeared. But do you see how I am one-upping you? Can you imagine? I think I was just lucky that the TSA or Homeland Security never called me in. I know what you feel, Nana, and I say rise above the pettiness. Most intelligent souls can hold two contrary ideas without going insane. None of us know the whole story and we all have our information, intuition and sense of where is the line that we protest. You are SO not alone... Rated.
Wendy, thanks for reading, and for sharing that story, it puts the thing with Fernsy in perspective. Honestly, it's a fairly minor affair for me, my real name wasn't even involved - and this sort of event is exactly the reason I don't use my real name online. There's something I learned a long time ago though; if you keep fucking with people, as Fernsy seems to enjoy doing, eventually you'll meet someone who will fuck with you back. That said, I'm pretty much over it.
Stellaa! Yeah, I've noticed that before about the URL, though not everyone does. Live and learn is my motto, but what do I know, I'm just a giant anti-semite:(
I wish it was 7.
Does that make me anti-clockwise ?
Tink, can I come and hang out with you for awhile ?
I can do zooms, even smell-cam.
I don't like pathetic people - am I antipathetic ? Ok, I heard you.
But Tink can't do it alone.
Why did he spend all his hard-earned nigerian on new breasts and a vagina ?
OS mystery.
Do you see what you're doing to me Kim?
Please make sure your smell-cam is working for the upcoming anti-birth of Tinkerertink69.
Both my points were on topic - it's become a multi, or bi-post : Tink's terrible issues with his sexuality, and Israel.
Liquid stools is way off topic. Liquid stools ? Get a grip, nan.
Isn't this one of those silly laws of civets, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, matter, anti-matter??
Fernsy? Fruitbatloopy!
And just think about all the pornography you'll miss out on.
Regarding Tink, I think it's too late, the malaise has eaten too deeply into his soul. He was the one who first thought of the breastfeeding Arabs article, and having it stolen by TwoDayMag then make cover was too much for him. I'm just wondering what method he's going to chose for his final act. Poison upsets his stomach, and he doesn't want to mess his face up with a shotgun, so that pretty much leaves auto-erotic asphyxiation.
But then I started watching Star Trek: The Next Generation, man Picard was pretty cool as a Borg. I don't know if William Shatner could handle that, I mean, he has the whole "Hey green skinned alien chick, why don't you spread your multiple legs down on this bear skin rug and we'll make love!!!" Bawahwahwah....yeah, Kirk was good at getting the lady aliens to spread their multiple legs.
Oh yeah, I want "MOTHER MARY WAS A VIRGIN WHORE" to be played at my funeral, Nana, I've sent you the keys and music sheet and I want you to lead the band. It's like "Smoke on the Water" meets Abba meets a sick mongoose dying of the Mongolian flu, something we all know a lot about.
It'll be a nice funeral, Elton John and Rush Limbaugh will play the Asian skin flute, an interesting choice, I know.
I've invited all the staffers at Salon.com to show up and blog about it, my funeral, not Elton John and Rush Limbaugh playing the Asian skin flute, but it'll probably get mentioned. I hope they don't go, "Who the fuck is Tink?" I'd be sad. I'd like to pretend that I'm a global sensation, or at the very least, that I'm talked about in the middle of the former Soviet Union(according to the counters I've put on a few of my articles, I have quite a few hits from that region, from some military bases there, I like to invite them to my funeral too....)
Gawd, I'm rambling again, what was the topic about? Oh yeah, I think ABlonde should go topless to my funeral, add a touch of class to the procession.
Joan Walsh should too.....
Kerry as well.
Man, it's already 2:32 am here, and I'm starting to thinking about taking a cool refreshing shower and then taking a swig or two of Nyquil to feel da love.
Or maybe I'll just keep typing. It's fun to have serious discussions about why licking an Israelite makes you bisexual in a modern, non-biblical situation. According to the bible, if you read far enough, Jesus Christ was a communist and possibly very gay, or at the very least bisexual. "Love your fellow man...." what? Not likely "brother"!!!! Maybe if he's hot and has a really fast car, and then, it's only because I need to feel the stick shift of a hottie in my....oh lord, look at the time!! 2:34 am!!!!!
I hope 4am comes around and the servers stay up too. I have this great article in my head.
It starts out, "Are you happy?" and then ends with "WE SHOULD MOVE AWAY FROM HERE, ONLY LOVE, NOT AGE OR LOOKS, SHOULD MATTER. YOUR FRIEND, ANTINA!!!!" or whatever that whore that PMed me earlier today was named. I sent her an email with my phone number and my life story of how I was a reverend in Nigeria who ran a hostel there for refugees, providing the only Internet connection for thousands of miles around. I like to help people, help themselves.
Anyways, maybe I'll post about my sex change, before I blow my brains out because I'm depressed that St. Elsewhere turned out to be just some kid's fucking snowglobe!! What the hell? A snowglobe?
Gawd!!
Anyways, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, I like French Toast.
Oxymoron or point of fact?
How do you end your blog when you live blog a suicide. Should you turn off comments? Then again, maybe readers will finally believe when all their comments remain forever unanswered.
I don't delete articles, I just post the shit, and then leave it up, so years from now, I can read it, and cringe, because I didn't know how to spell, fuck, right. Gawd, who misspells fuck?
So it's like 2:45am, you know what that means, time for prep work on my 4:32 am travels to ChickswithStrapons.com!! Oh my, big strapons too!!!
And Tink, you can't back out now, we've almost got the method figured out. I'm thinking anal attack gerbils with little suicide vests strapped onto them, in tribute to your love for the Taliban.
Seriously, awhile back, some guy on a weight lifter bulletin board posted, "I'M GOING TO KILL MYSELF...STAY TUNE!" All these people were like, "Yea!! Kill yourself!!" and then, when the time came, this person had his Webcam turned on, he strolls into view, takes some pills, and then dies....well....not too quickly, people thought he was faking it, so they didn't call the cops or anything, plus, nobody knew where he was at, I mean, people know where I'm at, but heck, I'm open like that(giggle, Open on Open!! Who knew that was even possible!!!)
I think if I was going to kill myself, or got that depressed because I don't have a job, etc. I'd turn into terrorist. I mean, not one of them "Down with America!!" terrorist, no, I'd be more like, "DOWN WITH DISCO!!!" and blow stupid stuff up, you know, like abandoned disco clubs in Kansas City, and such things.
People wonder why some folks become terrorists. I can now answer that question with my own reasons, life sucks big dicks and it won't even come on your face but will kick you really hard in the nuts. And unless you're into that kind of thing, it sucks reallly reallly bad and you get these thoughts in your head, "I want to be remembered as the man who blew up the Slave Pit that USE to have hot girls in chains, but now, just cobwebs and the slight smell of mold because the roof leaks really bad....." Desperation and the thoughts of not being remembered can drive someone to drive a clown car full of TNT into a long closed dance club that is now an art gallery.
Good thing nana and Trig told me that before I went through with that plan.
Oopsie. Just blew up some modern artists!! EEK!!!
I know, right? Very few people know I'm on that list, it had something to do with a post or a hundred I did on here, something about Al Gore licks hairy buttholes or something. Government doesn't take to Al Gore hairy buttholes story.
The International Crime Force agent who came to my house to "question" me was like, "Who are you working for?" I yelled back, "No one!!" and then he was like, "Do you have something to drink, I'm parched!" and I was like, "Who uses the word 'parched' anymore?"
And well, that's the day I got added to the terrorist watch list. My parents were so proud!!
What about lopes ?
I'm not nutty about lopes ....
What?
Nana, yeah, I don't think I could blow a cool place like that anyways, I'd like to get crazy on that glass dance floor, you don't see those around any more. ~nodding~
Kim, I've had my lopes removed. I use to hallucinate a lot more than I do now, and my doctor was like REMOVE THEM OR DIE!! So well...
Damn, that was a close lightening strike. God must be mad that I uttered the phrase, "GOD IS DOG SPELLED BACKWARDS!!!!!!" Sheesh. Think I'm going to go offline till the major part of this storm blows over.
Smooches and gropes to one and all, FREE CHARLIE BROWN!!!!
SNOOPY TOO!!!
And I replied, "Yes, I read it on Yahoo! Most Searched Terms and seen his name and was like, 'Who the fuck is looking for Uncle Jessy from Full House?"
God, I miss that show.....
Never mind.
Inquisitive Canuck, thanks for reading, and for your kind comment! Yes, things have gone a little degenerate at the end of the thread here. I blame Kim, with his unreasoning antipathy to horned herbal arrangements, though some of Tink's commentary slewed things in unseemly directions as well. They're both ne'er do wells is what it comes down to.
Loves and hugs to all.
See you on the other side, I'll be wearing purple pants and a green shirt, to go with my mauve shoes!!!!
~wanders off~
~wanders back in~ Man, we sure did make a mess of your wonderful article, it really should have gotten something, an EP, or a DVD or something.
The comments were wonderful, especially me and Kim, we really kept on topic, if that topic was about me killing myself or making a scat fetish porno with John Stamos and that chick from LA Law.
I so wanted to do the Facts of Life girls back in the day. Gawd.
Blaire made me wish I was just that much older......
An article posted by Alan Nothnagle the same day you posted this one is an excellent example. He entitled it "Does religion make people violent? A criminologist says yes" but then goes on in his responses to comments to ignore utterly what I pointed out about the religion of Islam and say that the criminologist making the study seemed to be pointing out that it is a lack of integration of Muslim youths in Germany that produces the excessive violence among them. Again ignoring that Islam itself teaches its adnherents that they should NOT integrate with infidel cultures!
That may seem off track, to use his respnse or lack of response there in debating with you on yours, but the point is the same and made very clear there. Islam is given a free pass, where its individual Muslim followers are treated not as agents of Islam but as free agents acting individually with no connection to the source of their violence: Islam, the Koran, and Muhammad their prophet.
Israel is a nation in a state of seige. And that too is ignored.
With respect : "... the source of their violence : Islam, The Koran, and Muhammad their Prophet," could we not turn it around, as well ?
Source of violence : monotheism ? Land ?
Way to cease hostility : share ?
You know how long it's been going on. Islam and Judaism are uncompromising. There will be war. While parents actively choose to believe the garbage of their inheritance, children will suffer.
Want that, much ?
" And those who choose to create anything more of their own inheritance anything more than a convenient, self-made tomb, shall be known as survivors ..."
Liner notes, Keith Jarret, Survivors, from memory.
Henry, you've always seemed like a thoughtful, rational person, but on this issue you're mistaken, and you're not arguing your case well at all. As I said in this post:
"many people who are capable of multi-leveled, rational thought on a wide range of topics have too much invested in their ideologically or religiously based worldview to allow them to discuss Israel without resorting to slander and grossly inaccurate, unfair epithets."
You're giving us a perfect example of that, and when you say "What I made reference to was "apologetics on behalf of Islam." Not Muslims" you're not only quibbling, but you're missing my point entirely as well. Islam or Muslims, it doesn't matter, because I have never given either a free pass for anything, and your referencing of something Alan Nothnagle or other people in OS or people in America generally may have said is irrelevant to what I have said. You're still claiming that I make excuses for Israel's enemies when I've never done anything of the sort and it's starting to fucking piss me off. I've already been called an anti-semite by several people on this site, and now I'm being accused by you of being an apologist for Islam or for the actions of its adherents and that is absolute bullshit. I'll reiterate what I said yesterday; if you can find an instance of me giving a free pass to violence committed by followers of Islam - or violence committed by anybody else for that matter - I'd fucking love to see it. If you can't, I'd thank you to stop assuming you know my views on the topic.
So, count me as an anti-vegemite.
Tink, be careful when you wander off. I'd hate for you to come back with those lime green plaid golf pants and the fuschia shoes.
israel has put itself into a state of siege and enjoys playing the victim card.
Quatto, I think he had mauve shoes last time he was here, please don't give him any new sartorial ideas. And I'm also an anti-vegemite; any condiment made with rotten yeast is just wrong.
Mark, any nation living under siege would be advised to examine closely how that state of affairs came about. Falling back on "But look at how bad the other side is" doesn't cut it with me; I know the history of the region and the state of Israel too well for that.
i am a pacifist, to my very core. i abhor violence. It breaks my heart to see the horrific disregard for life exhibited by BOTH nations. i do not condone or support blowing up a public bus or cafe filled with innocent people, any more than i condone or support violently ejecting people from their homes & reducing them to refugees living in subhuman conditions. Violence & hatred exists on both sides. And neither side is willing to let go.
Therefore, i don't believe that there is a "right" or a "wrong" side. i do, however, think that we have made this an american problem, with an american perspective. i once heard a lecture by a wise, elderly Jewish psychologist who stated that she believed that the current behavior of the Jewish people was akin to a cultural PTSD. i think that we have americanized the issues by reducing them to politics. We can empathize, but we can never truly understand the thousands of years of history, of culture, that is the lifeblood of this conflict.
i believe that the Jewish people should have a home of their own. i do not believe that blood should be the price paid. But, look around. Our world is one of force & violence. They came into their nation as the result of violence, and the world has continued to define itself through violence. It has always done so. Are they acting so differently from any other nation? No. Does that make it right? No. But should we hold them to a higher standard because they're Jews & they should know better because of the Holocaust? Perhaps. i think that we should hold all people & all nations to a higher standard. Whether american, African, Arabic or Israeli, violence should not be tolerated. Let us set an example....
"i think that we have americanized the issues by reducing them to politics."
We definitely have; that's easy to do at the distance we view the issue from here. To some extent however it's justified if one's an American citizen to see it through that lens; we give more military aid to Israel than to any other single nation and have for decades, so its actions are viewed by many as actions (by proxy) of the United States. Whether it's always fair for others to see it that way is debatable, but there's no doubt that many do.
"Our world is one of force & violence. They came into their nation as the result of violence, and the world has continued to define itself through violence. It has always done so."
Exactly so. Here's part of a comment I made on another post earlier today which bears somewhat on this discussion:
By any objective measure, a great wrong was done to the Palestinian people when Israel was founded. In a perfect world, that wrong would be redressed at some point in a similar fashion to how a person who won a civil case in court might be recompensed for damages done to them. We all know however that isn't going to happen. Ever. The nation of Israel is a fait accompli, whether one agrees with the nature of its founding or not. No amount of moral high ground or waving of banners or rockets fired by Hamas is going to make Israel go away, and that's just simple reality. At some point, the wronged parties there will realize that by looking backward they're not able to chart a course forward, that by continuing to recite the litany of wrongs done they're wasting energy on the past when they need to be thinking about what to do NOW. In other words, keeping obsessive track of old scores (no matter how justified the sense of injury), never-ending hatred, looking always back rather than forward, all these things are roadblocks to ever resolving any fucking thing.
As far as me quibbling by making the distinction between Muslims and Islam, not so. It's a very valid point. But you aren't going to accept it here, obviously, so I think I'll have to make my case in a post of my own. These are getting lost in the mix of all the hippos and other such comments anyway.
"If my referencing another person's is of no consequence to what you have said or are saying, then neither is what you are saying of any consequence to what others have said or are saying."
That's a nonsensical statement Henry. The point of my last comment to you was that you referenced things others have said in an attempt to make it seem that their views are the same as mine, but on what logic do you hang your assertion? The answer of course is "none." It's a specious argument with no basis in rational thought processes, gibberish basically. At this point it's obvious you can't be bothered to argue from a position of reason or intelligence but would prefer instead to operate in the realm of unfounded accusations, so thanks for serving as a perfect illustration of the thesis of this post.
And yeah, Tink gets pissed when you don't submit commentary for his approval.