Lost and deluded.

I think you may be in denial. I was saying to my partner the other day that I couldn't believe that people really believed this sort of thing. But low and behold!

First post, hidden behind a pseudonym. What a moronic statement. You sir/madam are completely objectionable.

OK, how about this - there are now only six alleged 'death camps', four were razed before the end of the war, two are still standing, Auschwitz and Majdanek. Both have hoax gas chambers that are shown to visitors. How do we know the gas chambers are hoaxes, you ask? Both have large unbarred plate glass windows. No kidding. google comparison gas chamber doors to see photos of the Auschwitz hoax gas chamber.

Now, I expect the Zionists to insult, divert and evade. But if you are not a Zionist, try to comprehend the facts presented in the first post and this one, and comment on them. Then if you want to add a few insults, go right ahead. But think for a minute about the facts presented first.

Facts?

Lisa,

It is a fact that an article was published in 1919, written by Martin Glynn, former governor of NY, claiming that the Jews in Europe had suffered a holocaust of six million victims during WW I. That is a FACT. I provided a link. You can see it.

It is a fact that there are 'gas chambers' shown to visitors at Auschwitz and Majdanek, these are the only two in existence, and they both have unbarred plate glass windows. This is a FACT, and I provided a link where you can see photos of the Auschwitz gas chamber. Google majdanek gas chamber window and you can see the Majdanek gas chamber and window.

Here is another fact. The Nazis used Zykon, an insecticide used all over Europe, to kill lice to prevent the spread of typhus. It was used in fumigation rooms to delouse clothing. A building containing several fumigation rooms still exists at Auschwitz, complete with the special machinery used to generate, distribute, and exhaust the gas produced by Zyklon. These rooms at Auschwitz are never shown to visitors. This is a FACT.

Seems you can't even spell Zyklon B.

No.

Your timing is distasteful and disrespectful. If you can't bring yourself to care about the death of millions then at least have some respect for the young man who died doing his job to defend the many innocent others at the museum today. This post is disrespectful to him and his workplace and if you aren't coginicent enough to know you should feel shame then take some free advice. Feel shame.

The bones?
The testimony of Nazis?
The end of the shetl? (Spelling)
The Russian after the war acknowledged 4 million dead, and they hated the Jews. They had no question.
The ideology? It is what it is, in Mein Kampf, a very developed theory that made the extermination of the Jews state policy.
The Nuremburg laws?
Kristallnacht? sorry, I don't speak German.
Whether if was 4 million or six is unimportant; the key is millions, a qualitatively different thing other than the Armenians.

Don,

I don't want to get sidetracked. Let me just take one of your comments. The Russians claimed that 4 million had died at Auschwitz. They put up a stone plaque.

What they didn't tell you is that the Nazis kept meticulous records, a death certificate for every prisoner that died, and Death Books summarizing the records. The Russians hid these records.

Following Glasnost, they released the records in 1990. The stone plaque claimed 4 million died came down and was replaced by one claiming 1.1 million. This number too was fictitious. The record show that about 100,000 died. I will provide a link, or google death certificate Janusz Pogonowski to see samples and a summary.

My father was taken to Auschwitz at the age of 14 from Hungary with his parents and grandparents in 1944. He was then transferred to Mathausen, Melk and finally Ebensee from where he was liberated in 1945. He was the only survivor in his family. In 1956 he, my mother and my brother (who was two at the time) WALKED for many miles to cross the Austrian border and escape during the revolution against the Russians. They arrived in America six months later. My father has no belief in God or Jewish "agenda" (the holocaust cured him of both). In 1969 before it was "cool or hip" to go see the camps, they were not maintained and preserved as they are today. I was nine years old when I saw them for the first time and have been back several times since. You could barely get food in Poland and people walked around beaten up, shellshocked, poor and in shame unable to shake themselves of what went on in their backyard.
My father lectures all over the world that the holocaust killed gypsies, homosexuals, intellectuals, progressive thinkers as well as Jews. He lived, slept, slaved and woke up with dead bodies of all of them near or on him.
Oh yeah, I must be imagining that any of that happened.
There is a special place in hell for people like you that perpetuate this kind of notion that the holocaust never existed. What you say is pure and simple garbage that is evident of your hatred of any type of person that is different than you are. Thankfully, you are part of a small but despicable minority that is a pimple on the ass of the human race and hopefully, your breed will die out sooner rather than later.
I hope they have the same kind of gas chambers and ovens that you refute ever existed and I wish you a very slow, long burn in whatever kind of hell awaits you when your time comes to an end. You should be ashamed of yourself. Of course, that's not possible. You are delusional.

Cartouche,

Taking your post at face value, it bring up a critical point that I did want to cover. First the obvious, I presume your father was Jewish. Yet he survived all these camps. The primary tenet of the holocaust is that the Nazis attempted to exterminate all the European Jews. Well, why didn't they exterminate your father? Answer - they didn't try to exterminate anyone.

But, here's the point. At the end of the war, the Soviets approached the eastern camps first. The Nazis transferred prisoners west. Included were Anne Frank and Elie Weisel. There were thousands more. The conditions is Buchenwald, Belsen, and other camps in Germany became intolerable due to overcrowding, the breakdown of facilities, lack of supplies, food and medicine. The Nazis did everything they could, but there were typhus epidemics that killed 15,000 in Buchenwald, and 35,000 in Belsen. So, if your father was in one of these camps at the end of the war he is lucky to be alive. But, there was no effort of the Nazis to exterminate anyone.

I will include links to photos at Belsen that you have never seen. As you will see, everyone didn't die. You have seen the pictures of typhus victims presented as false evidence of the holocaust. I'll also give a link documenting the typhus epidemic at Belsen. (note - it takes a few minutes for links to appear)

I think you would bolster your contention, Cartouche with the simple word "German" To wit, German intellectuals, journalists, artists Catholic Priests and even Pastors like Pastor Martin Niemuller who would survive the camps and later write:

Original Translation
Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.
Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.
Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.
Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me

Are you actually trying to defend the Nazis????
That is a tall, tall order for such a tiny, tiny post. A tiny post in which you claim to have "facts", but don't even have a single link. You have promised to provide said links, and yet all you have provided are empty opinions. You want to know where my facts are? Go to a goddamn bookstore and check out the History section. This is my only comment, no matter what you say after this, I'm not coming back. I don't want to feed your lust for attention.

Esse Est,

Yep, I'm actually trying to defend the Nazis. Rooting for the underdog, if you will. Just trying to restore some balance to the equation. There are always two sides to any disagreement. Etc., etc.

The links are in the My Links section of my profile. I figured that was the best place for them as some blogs don't allow imbedded links. Please check them out.

you mean this guy?
http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/wwi-holocaust-01.html

what is it you're looking at? this doesn't say a thing about ww1. he describes a "threatened holocaust".
http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/appendix-4-01.html

i would be willing to bet he's describing the pogroms that were beginning in russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom

are you sure this document says what you claim it does?

bstrangely,

There is a link to the article in My Links, so you can read the article yourself. And, yes, I'm sure it says what I think it says.

Beyond that, the book "The First Holocaust, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns With Holocaust Claims During World War One" by Don Heddesheimer, available on amazon.com, contains many reprints of articles from the WW I era claiming that millions of Jews were dying in Europe, etc. The book explains the purpose of the ads and articles, and names the prominent figures in the Jewish organizations responsible for them. Some of these men, Rabbi Stephen Wise being one as I recall (and checked), became important figures/advisors in the Roosevelt administration and recreated the hoax for WW II.

"There are always two sides to any disagreement."

Well, I guess in the sense that there is the truth and there are lies, yes.

wow, you make some pretty compelling fact based arguments. I think I've been converted. The holocaust must have been overstated... (but slavery isn't--and the murderous persecution of native americans isn't... we've got no museums for those atrocities at the national mall)

In fact, I think you've converted everyone here on Open Salon. Congratulations.

Your work here is done.

Now, kindly move along.

i did read the article.

it doesn't say anything about jews who have died. it talks about jews who might be starving, and it talks about jews who fought under the american flag.

have you even read it?

just noticed i mispoke in my last comment... there is no holocaust described, but there is mention of jews being killed. and that seems to have happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom

this is the city your article is talking about:
http://www.felshtin.org/

why would that disprove the holocaust in ww2?

Well, I just read it in its entirety. It does speak about Jews that fought for the US and even there comes up with an absurdity,

" in the name of the one hundred and ninety-nine thousand and nine hundred and ninety-nine other Jewish boys who fought for Democracy beneath the Stars and Stripes won't you give copper" ... and reveals the motive .... "won't you give a copper".

But, I don't want to quibble ... the thing is phantasmagoria ... like the WW II holocaust tales ...

"In this catastrophe, when six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave by a cruel and relentless fate, only the most idealistic promptings of human nature should sway the heart and move the hand (toward your wallet, N.)

Six million men and women are dying from lack of the necessaries of life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, through no transgression of the laws of God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood."

This is just garbage. Written to get money for Jewish coffers. Profit from a phony holocaust. First in WW I, and then again in WW II.

Just for the record, as the book "The First Holocaust ..... " shows, the money collected by the Jewish organizations during WW I with their phony holocaust claims did not go to Jews in Europe, but instead went to private coffers and to financing immigration to Palestine.

with all due respect narcissus, you need to remove your head from your ass. i have a suspicion though that it's been up there for so long you've grown used to it that way, prefer it in fact. that being the case, carry on you brave soldier for pernicious lies and hatemongering:)

A Zionist announces himself ....

"with all due respect narcissus, you need to remove your head from your ass."

This will be the only time I respond directly to this type of stupidity. It is a deliberate tactic to drag any discussion of the holocaust into the gutter as quickly as possible. It discredits the author, of course, but indirectly it discredits the entire thread. It discredits me. This type of post appears, like clockwork, when the holocaust is challenged.

There is a funny line that appears in Mein Kampf, which actually prompted me to read the book, which I'm in the middle of, and I'd like to recommend to the Navy vet Alverson, you'll find it fascinating I guarantee, the quote ...

"The more I argued with them the more I learned their dialectic. At first they calculated on the stupidity of their adversary. Then, when they could find no other way out, they played stupid themselves. "

As a veteran of online debates, one can only laugh at the perspicacity of this observation.

I'll come up with a tactic for this sort of nonsense. It may involve deleting posts, we'll see. Posts like this will kill any thread.

you're hilarious narcissus. for you, anybody who calls you on the holocaust denial thing is a zionist. i'm someone who you know NOTHING about, but the fact that i recognize your line of bunk for the bunk it is makes you think i'm a zionist! what a predictable little pseudo-nazi you are.
feel free to delete my comments though; i'll take being deleted by a cretinous bigot like you as a compliment. and of course, i'll keep returning and re-commenting, and we'll see how your little thread fares then. if you want to post garbage, you're gonna get a little on you, but then, an experienced "veteran of online debates" such as yourself already knows that:)

"a predictable little pseudo-nazi"

That just about sums it up doesn't it? These people goose-step to center stage and spill their venom on everybody, then get all indignant when someone dares call them on it. It's worse than offensive; it's boring is what it is. Why don't you find an original spiel Naricissus, instead of regurgitating things people smarter than you have made up?

So, here's my question. How did this fund raising conspiracy manage to get so many people to lie about their own incarceration and eyewitness accounts of atrocities?

Oh my God this sh1t got 2 ratings? You mean there are actually >=3 holocaust denying loons on OS?

i was surprised by the 2 rates myself. i guess this kind of thing draws the wing nuts out from the dank little crevices they usually hide in. holocaust denial, and people like narcissus who perpetuate it, would be laughable if there wasn't always a certain percentage of haters and halfwits who are more than willing to buy into this garbage.

So, here's my question. How did this fund raising conspiracy manage to get so many people to lie about their own incarceration and eyewitness accounts of atrocities?

The question contains its answer, fund raising. Persons will lie for their advantage. The payoff in the WW I scam was immediate, they were explicitly requesting money. No mystery there. The payoff for the WW II scam is almost incalculable, a nation, hundreds of thousands dead, billlions of dollars that continue to be paid, etc., etc. The motivation for lying is obvious.

But the first question is, are they lying? Here is the thing, you have to actually read some of the 'testimony' to get an idea of what crap it is. That is, YOU have to ACTUALLY READ the stuff.

Let me suggest "Night" by Elie Weisel. On page four he writes "Babies were thrown up into the air and used as targets by machine gunners." There is no context leading up to this. There is no discussion that follows. There is not a shred of evidence or corroboration. It is physically impossible. This is degenerate phantasmagoria, served up as fact. If the Nazis are accused, no investigation is required. Was this lie taken seriously? I don't know. I do know Wiesel received a Nobel Peace prize.

Read the rest of the book !

Here is another example. John Demjanjuk was just deported to be tried as Ivan the Terrible of Sobibor. Do you know that he was deported to Israel in the 80's and tried as Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka. Five eyewitnesses identified him. Convicted. Sentenced to death. Russia, following glasnost, coughed up some information showing that the documents used to extradite Demjanjuk were forged. Pat Buchanan and James Trafficante got involved. Demjanjuk was released. He had never set foot in Treblinka. The 'eyewitnesses' were degenerate liars.

For other reading suggestion of 'eyewitness testimony' see the holohoax 101 links in My Links.

And let's not forget Mein Kampf, that great scholarly work from which you quoted the little gem at me yesterday. You're a hoot Narcissus.

This is laughable. In a sad way! Narcissus, it is you my friend a "contrarian" who has lost his way. The evidence you speak of is a speck of dust against the evidence proving that the holocaust exists.

Have you asked yourself, what if I'm wrong here? If you bothered to do so you might begin to wonder the pain and hate you are inflicting on others by trying to convert people into believing the Nazis and Hitler weren't so bad afterall.

It's obvious that you want to believe that which you've titled this post. "Any interest in holocaust denial" is an ironic way to put it, that obviously went right over your head. Its simple to see that you've come to your conclusion regardless of the TRUE facts, and are open to any "contrarian" ideas that support what you wanted to believe in the first place.

Fine. But we see right through you. You're not on to something. You're wasting your time and poising your own brain by searching for something that doesn't exist.

Millions of people died, the Nazis were that bad. You present three photos of a door in a room and compare it to one in Baltimore as one of your main defenses? WoW. I'm sorry to point this out, but it appears as if all anyone has to do is write a book and then you go out and eat up whatever they cooked up as a "fact" and therefore you are easily manipulated. What about the hundreds of other books written by various authors who have no reason to lie? You want us to believe its all a conspiracy because you say a few million less died? Because a plaque was changed.

You are a Holocaust denier, sympathetic to the Nazi line of thought and Adolf Hitlers warped mind. ITS TIME TO ADMIT TO YOURSELF YOU HAVE BEEN DELUDED.

The Nazis were the ones responsible for many thousands of deaths, Jewish, and otherwise. You're out of your mind to try and defend them, theres a special place for people like you Narcissus. The Cuckoos Nest.

Ironlungs,

I don't expect to convince you that the holocaust is a hoax. I don't that that it is possible, because you/we have been conditioned for 60 years to believe that it is true, and to think, as you have faithfully parroted, that anyone who does question it belongs in the cuckoo's nest.

What I do hope to do is intrigue you.

The Jews claimed there was a holocaust in WW I? Wow, isn't that slightly amazing?

The only two existing gas chambers have plate glass windows? Weird !

Elie Weisel was in the Auschwitz hospital? Really?

The Nazis wrote death certificates for prisoner deaths at Auschwitz? No ! The Soviets hid the records till the 90's? Unbelievable!

They changed the number of dead at Auschwitz from 4 million to 1.1 million, and yet didn't change the overall number of Jewish deaths? That can't be !

Any of these verifiable facts should prompt your curiosity. That's what I'm trying to do. To get you to investigate the matter yourself, to take an active role. If you remain passive your conditioning will prevent any alteration in your beliefs.

Good God Saggy! You were crap at Holocaust denial when you started and if anything you've got worse since. Stop, you're making the movement look bad.