Newton: This was just what I needed to read today - I am already sharing this quote with others. In a certain way, it reminds me of Rumi's poem, 'The Guesthouse', which I will share here - Thanks for the post (rated!) - Angie

The Guest House

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice.
meet them at the door laughing and invite them in.

Be grateful for whatever comes.
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.


-- Jelaluddin Rumi,
translation by Coleman Barks

You have failed to not impress yet again with your posts :) I really like them, and this one is an excellent example. It is interesting that the words themselves ring true regardless of religious affiliation.

"Looking for perfection creates imperfection inside you."

This caught my eye and I was forced to focus and re-read. Does this mean that our strive for perfection is damaging? Is that not what drives most of us or is this mostly an American thing? It's not something I think about and simply take for granted. That strive for perfection; I've never seen it as a bad thing but I question it today.

peece,
dj

Angelique - That is an awesome poem. Today is my first read and I love it. It adds to the post and evokes such vivid imagery.

peece,
dj

Angie, thanks so much for that, it really resonated with me today and will store it amongst my other treasures.

Jim, the perfection thing is sort of a paradox. Strive to do you best regardless, but then let it be, the effort usually sees to the details, but sometimes fate does play a nasty hand in the outcome regardless. Buddhists refer to it as detachment, and that attachment to outcomes is the root cause of all suffering. The best example would be the French versus Germans. Germans tend to strive for perfection --- you’ll see it in their sport, music and their cars--- in many ways a noble virtue but with some shortcomings. While the French tend to strive for beauty, joy, and flair, yet they too are a very proficient people. Austrians too would say that that is what separates them from their German cousins. Other nations such as many in Africa strive for the latter alone, and the limitations are very apparent. Truly, balance is the key, and which the French and Italians probably are the most emblematic of.

Jimenace asks a good question here, and your response is enlightening, as usual, Newton/Logos/Blessed. I myself wanted to write a longer response and refer to Adlerian psychology, and his (western) psychological concept of "the striving toward perfection," specifically. Due to time constraints, however, I will instead offer this excerpt, taken from a paper I co-wrote a couple of years back:

"Alfred Adler, founder of the Individual School of Psychology and an early associate of Freud, related psychological disorder and personality development to concrete, observable behavior. Adler (1956) therefore placed specific emphasis on relations between the individual and the environment by focusing on how we each engage in the experiential awareness of our feelings of inferiority while “striving toward perfection.” As a result, psychological disorder was consequently seen as being an attempt to overcome feelings of inferiority in the personality’s quest to gain a sense of competence within the context of one’s social system. Within such a framework, a maladaptive stance resulted in a sense of failure and inadequacy, for it isolated the individual by leading one away from social functioning and real-life problem solving. In Adler’s view, the etiology of most psychological problems plaguing the disordered personality is invariably rooted in a concern for a “limited sense of self,” rather than expanding it to include an ever-widening concern for others." [end of quote].

In regard to the paradoxical aspect Jimenace refers to, and given the above quote/excerpt from my own paper, I would suggest that an aspiration to "strive toward p/Perfection" would summarize this paradox nicely. Of course, we now would need to engage in a discussion of what the small 'p' and capital 'P' actually represent / symbolize / suggest. Unfolding / penetrating / passing through infinite veils that separate us from the "eternal" moment / Present / (capital 'R') "Reality"? Or...?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, Newton and Jimenace, James E., and others!

To be more specific: Please note that Adler himself was limited by a "limiting view" of the true nature of "Self" - given that he was not working within a transpersonal and/or "nondual" framework. However, by adding the additional 'P', we can now envision a pathway that involves egoic aspiration, as well as something that expands beyond limited views of self / others / environment, thereby negating the idea of "inferiority" all together. See where I am going here?

Frankl, who followed on from Adler at the University of Vienna, spoke of an Existential Tension that is imperative for our vitality-mental, physical, spiritual and otherwise. A striving towards something better, or more than our insular self, in this regard he specifically meant a striving towards meaning. This in a way is in line with the notion of being with the storm.

In Man's Search for meaning he wrote:
How can we say yes to life in spite of pain, guilt and death?
After all, “saying yes to life in spite of everything” presupposes that life is meaningful under any conditions, even those which are most miserable. And this presupposes the human capacity to creatively turn life’s negative aspects into something positive or constructive. In other words, what matters is to make the best of every given situation. Hence I speak of a tragic optimism, that is an optimism in the face of tragedy and in view of human potential which at its best always allows for: turning suffering into a human achievement and accomplishment; deriving from guilt the opportunity to change oneself for the better; deriving from life’s transistorizes an incentive to take responsible action.
It must be kept in mind, however, that optimism is not anything to be commanded or ordered. One cannot even force oneself to be optimistic indiscriminately, against all odds, against all hope. And what is true for hope is also true for the other two components of the triad inasmuch as faith and love cannot be commanded or ordered either.
To the European, it is a character of the American culture that, again and again, one is commanded and ordered to “be happy.” But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason to “be happy.” Once the reason is found, however, one becomes happy automatically. As we see, a human being is not one in pursuit of happiness but rather in search of a reason to become happy, last but not least, through actualising the potential meaning inherent and dormant in a given situation.

Thus importantly "a human being is not one in pursuit of happiness but rather in search of a reason to become happy, last but not least, through actualising the potential meaning inherent and dormant in a given situation" refers to an almost transcendental quality. from this I can conclude that perfection for perfection sake is not what we should be striving for, but that the focus should be on how our craft or activity adds value to humanity, is the all important consideration.

In an interview before his death he said:
Logotherapy (meaning therapy) amounts in nearly all situations to the advice, "Get to work." Other psychologies begin by asking, "What do I want from life? Why am I unhappy?" Logotherapy asks, "What does life at this moment demand of me?" Happiness, runs a favored Frankl formulation, "ensues." "Happiness must happen." Life should find us out there in the world doing good things for their own sake. Even "if we strive for a good conscience, we are no longer justified in having it. The very fact has made us into Pharisees. And if we make health our main concern we have fallen ill. We have become hypochondriacs.

About the transpersonal aspect, compare the views of Tolle to the Dalai Lama:
Tolle: The meek are the egoless. They are those who have awakened to their essential true nature as consciousness and recognize that essence in all "others," in all life-forms. They live in the surrendered state and so feel their oneness with the whole and the Source. They embody the awakened consciousness that is changing all aspects of life on our planet, including nature, because life on earth is inseparable from the human consciousness that perceives and interacts with it. That is the sense in which the meek will inherit the earth.

The Dalai Lama: I usually make a distinction between different types of ego. One ego is self-cherishing in order to get some benefit for itself, disregarding the rights of others. This is the negative ego. Another ego says, "I must be a good human being. I must serve. I must take full responsibility." That kind of strong feeling of 'I' or self opposes some of our negative emotions.
So there are two types of ego, and wisdom or intelligence makes a distinction. Similarly, we must be able to distinguish between genuine humility and a lack of confidence. One may mistake the two because both of these are sort of slightly humbling mental functions, but one is positive and the other is negative.

Clearly Tolle's is a watered down eastern regressive view which calls for the type of submissive attitude that Zimbardo referred to, in the previous post, as which is synonymous with cultlike thinking (at least it is the ideal mindset for a potential cult follower to have), while the Dalai Lama's view certainly has place for a strong and assertive self. Noticeably, so does the view of Sri Sri Ravishankar.

Hope that wasn't too confused, but the point being that it's complicated, but that it is important to have a transcendent view, beyond our personal ego concerns, but that a strong assertive sense of purpose is yet vital.

By the way Angie, that was a very impressive extract.

NEWTON & JIMENACE & ANGELIQUE...

German guy here..."Emmerling" means a bird that is known for his plumage...so: a pretentious, showy person...ironically,just the opposite of me, a quiet, humble guy....but definitely
a perfectionist.

And! the project i have taken upon myself is no small one. It is, as Angie says, "penetrating the infinite veils that separate us from the eternal Now". I've actually had some progress, especially lately...

To be a perfectionist german working on this may seem pretty formidable, and bound to fail & cause despair. But it fills the hours of my days..keeps me busy...outta trouble...
.I am serious here.!..but now i am in a conundrum, for i want enlightenment. Yet i am told to annihilate all my wants...hm...paradox?
actually! i have found a way around that...

I want..... It is a storm: this yearning to be truly in & of the world. It rages in my soul from the time i get up to the time i (usually drug myself to) lay down & sleep...but it's all good , it's all right...if...

i can cultivate "the moment". LEARN TO NOT ONLY LET THE STORM SUBSIDE, but to actually enjoy the storm: to be competent in emergencies, to feel anguish deeply,really FEEL it & not just wanna be out of it...
Hubert Benoit writes about a techinique. In the middle of doing something, stop very briefly, and take stock of your entire existential situation at that time. Physical, emotional, mental. Feel it, intuit it.See the result, the existential product, of ALL your life's choices & movements, UP TO N O W....then go about yr business. keep doing this. the more of these you build up, the more your organism gets used to this, as an exercise...these are mini-satoris, and they help to get you ready for the permanent one, whatever that will be like..

another of benoits tricks is to stop and listen to your mind. chatter, chatter...a monkey mind, indeed, as the Boo-dists say...but try this: wait, just sit & wait, for your next thought....Say, "mind, whatcha got for me next?" and...mind usually has nothing, cuz you got yer "eye" on it. And that no-thought is pure bliss...keep adding these "little samsaras " up, like in a damn bank account..

Angie..Adler was German, no? So doesnt his theory only apply to Germans? I'm being fascetious to make a point. The societal context of the theory is important. The theory, i believe, has truth, alot of it...i say that mainly because it applies to me... i am always living up to what is called an "ego -ideal"...my squirming ego has this always as its ...goal. But that isnt all bad..it's made me into the moral & intellectual giant i am today..(ha)..seriously...where does it come from, this ideal ego? And how do Superego injunctions play into it? I suspect the progress of the ego-development will depend alot on the attitudes toward the id's ...um, requests...THAT IS WHY we need to get the cult off the ground quicky-wicky---so Angie/ EROS can bestow the affirmation of our sensuous, erotic nature, give the blessing of the Goddess ,and avoid the thousand and one ways we restrain & villify it..

Jimbo...the strive for perfection can be very beneficial i think if we can observe it self-consciusly. Be watchful. Have a sort of inta-Self-dialogue. Tell a friend about it, so's he can tell ya when yre overdoing it...dig? Like: jesus said "be ye perfect like yr Father in Heaven"...i think this was a mindtwister. Perfection is of & in the moment... We abstractify it , like "happiness"...YOU KNOW IT WHEN IT HAPPENS...the perfect word, the perfect pitch, the perfect expression of physical love, etc...

aNGIE......JA, ANYONE W/O A TRANSPERSONAL, nondual theoretical framework should be treated as kind of an intellectual child, far as i am concerned. Nonduality is the natur of Reality, at base, and you simply cant escape that...But how does this strive for perfection fit in...

Could it be: its like a damn zen koan, a mindtwister...be ye perfect...then you see your whole idea of perfection: like some abstract state of being (whitehead's "fallacy of misplaced concreteness")
is silly and self-contradictory, and then: POOF!
you are enlightened lke that poor monk whom the master hit with a stick...

more!!!more!!

Jim

James, I cannot but sit in wonderment. That was pure genius!

Newton - This is why only YOU could bear the title of "Logos" - Scholarly and brilliant comment, as usual, and thank you for your acknowledgment of my excerpt.

You allude in your comment to what I allude to in my own excerpt, whereby I write that Adler failed to expand his concept of "striving toward perfection" to include an ever-widening concern for others.

James E. - You wish for more - well here it is - I now offer a possibility for our next segway:

Entertain the possibility that within each "eternal" [NOW] 'moment' there is a possibility of consciously "OPENING TO INFINITY". Then, imagine that there is a coinciding "infinitismal" 'decision-making point' within each (although there really can be no "each" as it is all ONE 'THING') such "eternal" moment that offers the constant possibility of a mini "big bang" consciousness explosion, one containing all of the creative force / fullness / emptiness / contraction / expansion / multidimensional life-direction / meaning-making / pathway-taking possibilities imaginable. Given this assumption, how then, might this all tie in with the concept of "striving toward p/Perfection", a striving that includes an ever-widening concern for others? Who goes first, gentlemen?

Relating to a different comment I made elsewhere (Scientology post on Newton's blog) - I think James E. Himself IS the BURNING BUSH on O.S. !!!!

From Newton’s points: “…the point being that it's complicated, but that it is important to have a transcendent view, beyond our personal ego concerns, but that a strong assertive sense of purpose is yet vital.”

I heard the same, but with overtones of what James was speaking to when he spoke of anyone with a “nondual theoretical framework should be treated as kind of an intellectual child”. I agree with that point once he further adds “Nonduality is the natur of Reality, at base, and you simply cant escape that...But how does this strive for perfection fit in...”

My personal third direction solidifies the answer – Angelique makes the defining statement for me. Perhaps it’s because I love poetry instinctively and not because I am well read (a fact I’ve brought up on occasion lol) but this statement again opened up my lens a bit and I ‘saw’ the message:

“...one containing all of the creative force / fullness / emptiness / contraction / expansion / multidimensional life-direction / meaning-making / pathway-taking possibilities imaginable.”

I saw Benoit Mandelbrot’s simple fracture mapped on the complex plane. As you plot the points that remain bound, the Pattern emerges - Ever growing more complex as it is magnified; yet contained in a very small area. It has infinite Volume in a Limited/Defined Space. I see Angelique’s:

“Entertain the possibility that within each "eternal" [NOW] 'moment' there is a possibility of consciously "OPENING TO INFINITY". Then, imagine that there is a coinciding "infinitismal" 'decision-making point' within each (although there really can be no "each" as it is all ONE 'THING') such "eternal" moment that offers the constant possibility of a mini "big bang" consciousness explosion,”

Each point of that fractal – to infinity – It is because of this that my small mind is pulled to eddies and currents that would look at a more tertiary than dualistic look at Me/Us/We and how we relate to the infinite/feminine/all. Or x and y and i(or the square root of -1) in the Mandelbrot equation. That pull after the storm has the feeling of truth.

Peece!
DJ

Jim, you really are a wordsmith. This sums it up for me "Each point of that fractal – to infinity – It is because of this that my small mind is pulled to eddies and currents that would look at a more tertiary than dualistic look at Me/Us/We and how we relate to the infinite/feminine/all. Or x and y and i(or the square root of -1) in the Mandelbrot equation. That pull after the storm has the feeling of truth."

That is, if you've truly experienced the full harshness of the storm, unintoxicated, and endured, you can begin to taste the true essence of life.

Well said, DJ - Question: Are we now entering the possibility of some sort of multidirectional / multidimensional "matrix" [pattern, so to speak] representing r/Reality? Or, are we going "beyond" even the concept of "matrix" all together? (I define Matrix here as follows: A situation or surrounding substance within which something else originates, develops, or is contained http://www.thefreedictionary.com/matrix). I await your thoughts, which I always find inspirational (my fellow Cult members!)

ANGELINA, JIMENACE, AND NEWTON....

First, Angelina....(as always, first eros?...)
You put me through the mind-wringer sometimes, but i do so ...."enjoy" it is not a strong enough word.. After PMing you & thinking that i had absorbed all that you could possibly offer me today, now you come up with this...It so eerily parallels a line of thought i've been cultivating that I cannot express how dumbfounded i am.

I picture my Self, the Big I, the Field that I "occupy", as an immense, infinite Space (literally), with a single point at the center. This point is actually sometimes manifested (and has been for yrs) as a little blueish dot. I SEE IT.

Intellectually, I say it is akin to a black hole, a singularity at the center of my being, as physical black holes occupyt the center of galaxies. As black holes suck in all surrounding matter,

my personal one sucks in My Past...every Karmic Fluctuation i have created and endured for lo these 41 yrs...but not only that...it also includes the enitere past of the Universe, poised as it is in the Absolute Present. It is Now.

My Field then flows into the future rushing in to meet it...but the point re. our "perfection" discussion would be this: it IS perfection, this infintesimal pt of...light? energy? ...because it is beyond all Qualification...It just IS...it is my "anchor" in the universe, the hook from which i swing....It is the raw present Source, the "Divine Spark" which indeed can be cultivated, A...and it is so easy to do: it consists in KNOWING THAT IT IS THERE...that we are not a collection of scraps of Contingencies somehow glued together & hurtling through the Random Void...

Obisously, in my spare time, I have built an intellectual edifice around it, a system...and as you said...um, somewhee...it includes Everything. All insight from whatever era, including today, this Zeitgeist...for culture evolves just like anything, and Hegel was right when he says , not that it is "reasonable " by our puny standard s of reason, but...by the living, magic Dialectic whose secret is that once you get to the Absolute, you are where you started of course...BUT: a hell o f alot smarter for having made the torturous journey TO it, seeking it...

The "ever-widening concern" you mention is none other than the natural movement of our moral being beyond the temporary way-stationof our ego, which is firstnarcissistic (as an infant), then confined to parents, then growing to include our Group, then self-individuating (Adler's realm) (I prefer Maslow), and finally, at the end of a monumental growth, able to include others as one's self---simple empathy, which is a pretty rare trait only achieved by those who have struggled to achieve it

by outgrowing the illusion that we are ONLY separate beings. We are, but that's not all we are. The universe's goal is not only Agency (individuation), but its dialectic opposite, Communion. Both. Paradoxical, like everything in this cosmos..

so: maybe i'm saying that "perfect" is impossible, yes , sure, if it's an individaul goal. You can only experience the perfection of yr Being by recognizing its true nature...taking the other half (universl concern) into full account..

Then ther is the spectrum of concern: just yr group? just yr nation? just yr planet? just yr species? or alll sentient life?

It is a matter, simply, of expanding yr sense of Identity. Finally, to the whole universe i guess...________________________________

Know this: these thoughts are hardly too much different than...well, mental disorder. And people in smaller universes will always be terrified of those commanding larger one. And they play very dirty, out of this fear...sometimes...to the death, i assume...as i unfortunately learned today from my supposed loved ones.. Be warned...
__________________________________________

Meaning is indeed what "I" make it...but what is the nature of the I oding the making?
_______________________________________________
Newton: re. the subject of this piece, ou r dissatisfaction with religion as it stands...religion is but symbolzation (for man is the symbol making animal) of these eternal truths...eternal in the sense of What is Going On Now, and Always has been, and always will...

picture thinking, hegel dismissed it, but gave it very special place, right before the achievement of Spirit Absolute...the completed circle..


Fondly, the Burning Bush, aka Mythos

The centre, the point of self, the spark - Angelique - "A situation or surrounding substance within which something else originates, develops, or is contained." We are but the Imperfections around which order, beauty and life and Love r/Reality Coalesce...

God in a snowflake, taken like the Eucharist,
melts at the touch of me --
Unique, transient, and too-soon-forgotten
Lives -- yet ceases to be

journey through infinite sky
On a comet, birthed by tears from the Creator’s eye
as She thought love into existence
and the Other whored resistence
In the apple that fell from a lie.

Twas the time that we spent
Without knowing intent
Far removed from the words of Her Song

Is it too much to hope and impossible to pray
That the womb might baptize the babe?
For we’ve fallen too hard
To be feathered and tarred --
Just for dreaming -- we might have stayed.


That point – beauty – as the child of imperfection – in the case of the snowflake – a simple piece of Gaia (dust)

Ashes to ashes and dust to dust…


Peece
David

JIM...Astoundingly beautiful....

And "to the point"...HA!

(We made the right damn decision including this fellow in our CULT...
Perhaps he is our ST.Peter...our petra...or rock...
OR! perhaps he has "rocks in his head" as Mom was fond of saying...
probably both...)

me yet again, absolutely exhausted...must be time to wake up in South Africa...or is Newton still sleeping like a
newborn (but positively nondual) babe?
off to eat myself into sleepiness...

James! Thank you - but perhaps you mean 'rock' and not 'rocks' you flatter me :P

peece!
dj

My apologies all for not reading any of what I’m certain will be fascinating contributions, but I have about 15 minutes to contribute to Jims conundrum, so let me proceed without delay.

It occurred to me that the whole issue of perfection versus Perfection can be resolved from the perspective of Existential versus Neurotic Suffering. Existential suffering is real suffering, the entire world is suffering the credit crisis at present—it is a reality, we may be experiencing the loss of a loved one, one may have a debilitating disease. Neurotic suffering is mental suffering—angst as our uber friend would say, what if, if only, I should have been, type suffering where we pre-empt or superimpose our mental hallucinations on reality, it is the mental anguish we bring upon ourselves by forcing an outcome which may or may not conform to our expectations.

How does this relate to perfection?

Well it simply is that we can categories it in a similar way. Those who practice a craft strive towards Perfection, but for its own sake, it’s an expression of what we do and how we do it, it’s an almost spiritual expression of our being. Perhaps it truly is. The artist is meticulous about the tools and products he uses to produce his masterpiece. The winemaker spends many months nurturing and refining his grapes. He takes meticulous care in how and when it is picked, how it is to be crushed, and where and for how long it is to be stored. They are striving for Perfection, a permanent extension of oneself encapsulated by the endeavor itself. This applies to all crafts, from writing to how we bolt the wing of a plane.

However the marketing media wishes us to strive for a superficial, perceptual, transitory perfection, but that they are continually moving the goalposts that we are never reach that point of satisfaction. We look for the ideal partner that can never exist beyond its celluloid expression, we expect our significant other to make us whole which is an impossibility if we are not whole to begin with, when in truth all they have in their power is to lend us an ear, a helping hand, go the extra mile, and know us better than anyone else will ever do. But the striving to perfection by imposing our list of requirements on them, but even on ourselves, is pathological, a demand for unrealistic and unreasonable change, while full acceptance of the Perfection of the “other”, as imperfect as they may be, is what our hearts and spirits require for us to soar, to transcend our transitory insular existence.

About Perfection as it applies to what we do, this quote I discovered in the Bhagavad-Gita – and which I shared before – sums up this view pretty well.

Only the ignorant speak of devotional service as being different from the analytical study of the material world. Those who are actually learned say that he who applies himself to one of these paths achieves the results from both.

This is probably the most enlightening scripture I’ve read. What you’ve got to bear in mind is that this is an ancient script, probably many millenniums old, and reflects a time where very few had the power or capacity(perhaps mentally or absence of a skill or talent) to explore the material world, and thus were obliged to rather explore the inner world. The exploring of the material world to me has to do with how you do what you do, how you perfect your craft, your dedication. In other words, you can come to the spiritual state of a wise sage meditating for months on a cave, by our attitude and dedication to the task set before you. In other words, to strive for Perfection.

And there I’ll rest my case.
Sincerely,
Logos

The thin about existentialism suffering, is that we can transcend it when we say, "this is real suffering, this one we must suffer" or we brought this upon ourselves, we were responsible" or "this was out of our control, but it has nevertheless come upon us, so lets deal with it", in other words, when we embrace it fully. About the other completing us, to heal us of our torment, they may very well have that power, but the real issue is that it is not our expectation from them that they do.

Jim / Burning Bush / Mythos: You manage to capture in words that which is as hard to capture as a greased pig; I was also reminded of "The Zen Ox-Herder" (or, "Taming the Wild Ox or Bull") story whilst reading your most recent comment/missive - Refer to http://www.4peaks.com/ppox.htm to see all 10 pictures of this little Zen parable, with comments- although I imagine you (and N. and J.) already know this one. With the first picture from this story comes this comment:

"The bull never has been lost.
What need is there to search?
Only because of separation from my true nature,
I fail to find him.
In the confusion of the senses I lose even his tracks.
Far from home, I see many crossroads,
but which way is the right one I know not.
Greed and fear, good and bad, entangle me."

Later, by the 9th picture, we have this comment:

"From the beginning, truth is clear.
Poised in silence,
I observe the forms of integration and disintegration.
One who is not attached to "form" need not be "reformed." The water is emerald, the mountain is indigo,
and I see that which is creating
and that which is destroying."

By the 10th picture we have this comment:

"Inside my gate, a thousand sages do not know me.
The beauty of my garden is invisible.
Why should one search for the footprints of the patriarchs?
I go to the market place with my wine bottle
and return home with my staff.
I visit the wineshop and the market,
and everyone I look upon becomes enlightened."

And here again, we have this idea of returning, returning to Source, returning to h/Home, returning to the World, returning and seeing with "re/new/ed" eyes via the very state of constancy / enlightenment.

If it were not so late I would add more here about all this, the story and how it all relates to your comment, but now I must attend to Jimenace and Newton so I can live up to my "Eros" name.

DJ - This poem knocked my socks off. I felt as if I was flying through the Universe; as if I myself was dropping from the sky as the snowflake, melting on warm skin; as if I suddenly understood the 'secrets' of the Cosmos while penetrating the "transmission" offered within this most inspired poem. Having read this, I am not so sure I want us to carry out our little plan to brainwash you - But, we must ensure that you are committed to using your notable literary gifts to SERVE and PROFIT the CULT. We will have to explore this further, later (and there is always further, further to go...)

Newton: You are the thought/soul provoker here. Your posts act like a finger pushing over the first domino, and a cascade of revelation ensues. Forgive me for segwaying us yet again, but, I would like to further explore the concept of Neurosis, and how neurosis relates to "splitting" and, as the great (deceased) psychologist Karen Horney would say, "our inner conflicts". The (perceived, supposed) "self" divided against itself. Such (constant) "splitting" wears on the psyche, true; yet, at other times, this same inner division / turmoil may allow the psyche to penetrate "beyond the veil" via this intrapsychic "rip".

To go one step further, and to speak in more general terms: Those who live within a "dualistic" paradigm are themselves caught in the "subject/object" split (Charles Tart calls this living in a "survival trance," by the way. Also, check out Tart's new book "The End of Materialism, recently released - he is a friend of mine so I like to plug his work when I can). DJ alludes to the "split" / "rip" in his poem - This is the fall from Grace; the exit from Eden; the descent into darkness, "Hades", hell - The illusion of separation.

Given the above, I propose that most everyone on earth is not only neurotic, but in a certain sense, actually psychotic. Or, if not psychotic, then...

I had a dream years ago where Christ visited a class I was teaching - It was filled with autistic children. When his clear eyes penetrated me, I began to sob with the shock of recognition - Not the shock of recognizing him as Christ , but the shock of recognizing MY OWN TRUE NATURE FOR THE FIRST TIME. I also realized in that precise moment that to h/Him, I was also "autistic" - no different, really, then the children I was teaching - that is, I / we / most of us alive have an "excessive attachment to objects" - the ultimate "object" being our egoic identity and our belief that this is "all that is."

I could next take us into another segway discussion of a nondual understanding / re-envisioning of "Object-Relations" and "Attachment" theory, but I think I will stop here...

What an impressive conversation I've stumbled upon first thing on this cool rainy morning. So impressive I feel a bit intimidated for my words are no match for anything said here, nor do I need them to be. First Newton, the passage by Sri Sri Ravishankar was much needed for I've found myself in a storm, things beyond my own control for some time now. I berate myself for my continual floundering for in my deepest place, I know I can still find joy and not be so tossed around, yet it continues to be elusive. This passage will be a meditation. I have a copy of The Guest House but had forgotten about it, and re-reading it added to the truth that certainly is there to accept all with curiosity and openness.

As for the perfection thing...I will say in the most simple of ways that it has been my experience that when my clients are striving for perfection, they suffer. Certain personality types strive for perfection more than others (for me, this is never been a personal goal. I laugh because I accept the impossibility of it). The Enneagram is a wonderful tool to understand self and others. There is something very liberating in letting go...and loving what is.

We are, I believe, made up of different domains...intellectual, emotional, spiritual and physical. And for me, I do best when all four are in sync with one another and I am honoring each part of myself. This is when I am most happy. Though this synchronization can be quite elusive so I'm not so picky that all four cogs of the wheel always need to be oiled.

I think to be human usually involves some good old-fashioned neurosis and anxiety. It's when we become self-aware, we can self-correct and self-generate, and then we are at our best. Perfection doesn't interest me. I like the wrinkles, the shadows and the dark sides...but only as teachers and never as guides. Humor is a constant companion.

That's about as deep as I can get this morning. Thank you Newton and all for a written morning cup of coffee. I feel invigorated and wish all a beautiful day.

Marty, thank you so much for your input, that had some much depth and clarity, and it saved me from having had to answer to Eros, otherwise known as Angie, I just did not have the time today. By the way, psychopath and neurosis are on the opposite sides of the scale of humanity, so a healthy bit of neurosis indeed points to the health of humanity. Indeed a very good dose of neurosis points to the development of a healthy teenager. "Blessed are the weak in sprit" Christ said, "for they will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven". It think, if he could rewrite it in modern psychological speak he would’ve said “Blessed are the neurotic, for they will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven".

And Angie, what did you do to Eros?

GANG:

I guess i take a Gestaltian view of neurosis...and perhaps i can incorporate some of the talk of subject/object dichotomy...

Neurosis basically is a blocking of the energy of the organism half of the field we live in...no...the field we are....the organism/environment field.

So, yes, it is a separation of the organism from the whole reality the organism participates in, flows into, IS...

Why do we block? To avoid pain, of course, what else? In the blocking, we build up certain behaviors that act as "safty valves".

WHEN we block is important. At what point of contact with our environment. It determines the type of neurosis...

For example, i sort of believe in the simplest explanation of depression. It is, roughly: anger turned inward. WE've all heard that. But what does it mean, really? Something like this, i think:

We are always in continuous contact with our environment, because we ARE our environment, as well as our organism. The feeling of anger wells up. But for some reason, it is deemed inappropriate, and is pushed down. Literally, re-pressed. We may not even know we have it. The point is:

the organism has a need to express the anger. It cannot. It is blocked.The energy goes somewhere. Where? Simply, it is RETROFLECTED. Retroflection is when we do to our selves what we need to do to the environment. Inward-turned anger. Simple.

Of course i am oversimplifying, but i like this energy model of the "psyche". To speak of something called the "psyche" is absurd, because it simply doesnt exist,

apart from its environment. It is always in contact with SOMETHING... Thisis where theory goes astray, in my opinion.

For example...off the point a bit...what we call "conscience " is nonsense. It is an energy dynamic. If you get away with something, you feel good. If you get caught, your conscience scolds you. Why? Cuz your anger at those who caught you is turned on yrself. Build your mighty moral edifices all you want. It is all about being caught. Of course,

the concept of "caught" is a very complex one. I suppose you could "catch" yourself...

This is most objectionable to alot of people, i know. Yet tell me it aint true...Another example: Projection. you are feeling an unwanted feeling. You cannot accept it. Yet: YOU CAN DAMN WELL FEEL THAT SOMEONE IS FEELING IT. The point of "interruption" in the proper flow of energy is when you are confronting the environment. The excitation, the fellling....whatever...is accepted , and the environment is confronted: but the emotion is freefloating, it is unrealted to the active sense of self. So:

well, if the emotion couldnt possibly spring from you, it must be attributed to the only other possible reality: the environment. You feel it "in the air", directed against you by an other...
_______________________________________________

I sometimes try to truly visualize myself as being this field, with its ever-changing , fluid play of energy....emotional, mental...
and

sometimes i think: if i can sit still, or really relax and tune in, i can RIDE this enery play instead of riding along after it, its patsy...

Jim

No need to respond, Newton, although certainly I am always "all ears" for any of your insights and feedback - And Mary, thank you for your comments and for engaging in this discussion.

James, I will chew on your most recent input to this thread for some time to come, as always. Strangely, your comment somewhat encapsulates a 42 page paper that I co-authored, including many of the "Basic Assumptions" offered in this paper (published within the Transpersonal Psychology field) - How do you keep doing that??? I offer you the abstract to this paper here:

Abstract

We present an alternative nondual, positive conceptualization of transpersonal lifespan development, psychopathology, and psychodiagnosis. This theory integrates metaphors and discoveries currently emanating from the fields of modern theoretical physics, integrative medicine, energy psychology, and sacred “world” wisdom psychologies. In this model, the
multidirectional, multidimensional, energetic process of true Self-development is recognized. Order (well-being) is viewed as an intentional flow of ordering; disorder (psychopathology) is viewed as a progressive flow of disordering. Clinical applications acknowledge DSM-IV-TR categories and symptoms while addressing innovative ways of reconceiving anxiety “signals” as an energetic, vibratory, health-seeking process. Such signals (symptoms) are seen to have the potential to assist in the realignment of one’s own innate nature and life direction within each infinitesimal decision-making point, juncture, or “seed moment.” True Self-cultivation is recognized as an energetic, intentional, “nondual” realignment practice assisting individuals in consciously expanding toward an ever-increasing sense of well-being throughout his/her entire lifespan.

Angelique! Loved this – it ‘sparked’ me – “Such signals (symptoms) are seen to have the potential to assist in the realignment of one’s own innate nature and life direction within each infinitesimal decision-making point, juncture, or “seed moment.” True Self-cultivation is recognized as an energetic, intentional, “nondual” realignment practice assisting individuals in consciously expanding toward an ever-increasing sense of well-being throughout his/her entire lifespan.”

I see the seed moment as the fractal containing all the information necessary for growth. Be it the seed of the mighty oak – or the seed of our moments as you state. We grow intentionally and majestically – trees, all of us, our thoughts – consciously expanding toward an Ever-Increasing awareness…

Quick comment only – back to the looking glass…
Peece!
dj

Wow, you three guys make it difficult for a gal to go away for a few days - but gone I shall be. If I drop off the radar after today, I surely will returneth next week sometime...May the Spirit of Eros Remain With You, My Three (Cult) Brothers!!!

P.S.- DJ (and others): I invite you to consider how this "seed moment" I refer to (and which DJ refers to as "the factal"), might relate to the mathematical concept of "inflection points" (definition to follow)? Meaning, how might this concept I put forth in my abstract relate to the process of "Adjustment" within our "everyday, ordinary lives"? It should be noted that the DSM-IV classifies the lowest level of pathology as "Adjustment Disorder." But, I ask you, what is it we are having trouble adjusting to, and what if the "to" should be changed to "toward"? From my paper again:

An Alternative Transpersonal Interpretation Of Adjustment Disorder

At this time the authors will briefly reexamine the DSM’s approach to diagnosing and treating Adjustment Disorders as a means of illustrating the new interpretation of disorder, and the “disordering” process. In the Study Guide to DSM-IV-TR, Fauman (2002) states that the core concept of this diagnostic group, “Adjustment Disorders,” is "the development of emotional or behavioral symptoms in response to an identifiable stressor(s)” that are “in excess of what would be expected from exposure to the stressor or significantly impair the individual's functioning"
(p. 368). Utilizing the what then approach described in our introduction, the authors’ reinterpretation of Adjustment Disorders would be as follows: While we agree that it is our human nature to seek to adjust emotionally and behaviorally in response to internal signals and external stimuli, we further propose that in this process of adjustment we are not able to truly recognize what it is that we are supposed to be adjusting toward. To go further, we as clinicians and practitioners invariably fail to adequately envision a client’s true Self-nature as being the optimal reference point when engaged in the felt-sense experience of his/her lifespan developmental process. It is our belief that it is in the process of adjusting to one’s true Self-nature that true Self-development lies, in that a person who remains unmindful of this innate, unseen, but very real transpersonal reference point will be unable to “navigate” toward health and well-being in a determined and sustained way, leaving him or her vulnerable to developing other, increasingly complex Axis I and II-type disorders, as categorized in the DSM-IV-TR.
In continuing our examination of Adjustment Disorder, Fauman (2002) highlights another key concept that has directly inspired our own postulations regarding the nature of psychopathology and psychodiagnosis: “The diagnosis of Adjustment Disorder depends on the identification of a stressor that is causally connected to a disturbance in the patient's mood, anxiety, or conduct. The patient may or may not be consciously aware of the causal relationship between the two. The identification of this link is the crucial component of the diagnosis" (p. 370). We agree with Fauman that we as diagnosticians are to look for a causal connection to our client’s disturbance as it is manifesting in the form of fluctuation of mood, anxiety, or conduct; also, that we are to look for a link, a thread, or a string that signifies a causal relationship between the two. However, here we would again go one step further by suggesting that most, if not all, nonorganic psychopathology (and perhaps even certain organic conditions as well) may be traced to one’s inability to adjust, or align, with one’s true Self-nature and sacred life direction as it is presenting itself within each moment. As indicated in our basic assumptions, such “maladjustment” (or misalignment) will lead to inner “distress” signals that, when not attended to, progressively manifest as a vibratory sense of anxiety. When we do not attend to this mal-adjustment, our energetic Self-nature naturally amplifies the signals until they are received, then adjusted to, in an intentional, health-seeking effort to redirect us toward the felt-sense experience of well-being. Should such signals continuously go unrecognized and/or be ignored, this misalignment
(mal-adjustment), with its attendant distress, will continue as a disordering process, one that is possibly heading toward more fixated states of disorders, as described in the remaining “grand categories” of the DSM. (end of excerpt).

(In differential calculus, an inflection point, or point of inflection (or inflexion) is a point on a curve at which the curvature changes sign. The curve changes from being concave upwards (positive curvature) to concave downwards (negative curvature), or vice versa. If one imagines driving a vehicle along a winding road, it is a point at which the steering-wheel is momentarily "straight" when being turned from left to right or vice versa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection_point)

I've just come back from a busy day, only to have my mind blown. Wow, Awesome stuff you guys. But I'm off to bed again and chew on all of that sometime tomorrow. In the meantime - just to give some synopsis on the issue of Neurosis and depression, I'll leave the following extract I summarized from M. Scott Peck's The Road Less Traveled. Happy travelings Angie, off to New Mexico I'm guessing.

Angie,
First : thank you for the avatar adjustment.

Second, you are absolutely right in everything you say.

You express it very well. A+, as Dad would say. But:
You have gone over my Dad's head here. You have commandeered
my Dad's language to express things never dreamedof in his world. Yet:

Dad is willling to go along. And his Son?

His son says , yah, yah,.....

"Causality? Dsm4? Heard all about these things...

but, hey, i got problems with em... & here they are..."

TO BE CONT'D

I got problems with 'em too - But how to be a Trojan horse amidts the mainstream psychological world? How to heal the theoretical "splitting" so that a "bridge into the light" might be built within the Western medical field? This is what our small offering attempts to begin to do - perhaps it is a futile attempt, but, at the very least, we are inviting alternative understandings of "mainstream" western psychological diagnostic and treatment models. Perhaps one day I shall do the reverse of my poem ("I once was an artist, but now am a psychologist...") and leave the field all together....Looking forward to you blasting away - I can take it!!!

I am agog over all this new stimuli. I'm fairly certain (98.6%) that my mental mHz is screaming at me. Too bad - this is an upgrade :D

Love all you guys and this corner of the net in which to blast at the ether. Maybe we just like to see the pretty colors reflected from each other's heads.

Angie! be save in your travels. I am a New Mexican by virtue of 'that's where my job is' but have also come to enjoy the dry beauty that are some of its locales.

James! I am looking forward to the nuclear missle you are about to launch - a Mythos special :)

Newton! what can I say? I think you would probably answer that with a high percentage of accuracy... peace, Logos.

Off to get my chips installed...
PEECE
dj

Let me get back to logos mode, and first take on James on a previous input. Some powerful words, but I have a few issues/comments.

Firstly, I generally agree with your view “Neurosis basically is a blocking of the energy of the organism half of the field we live in... no... the field we are.... the organism/ environment field. So, yes, it is a separation of the organism from the whole reality the organism participates in, flows into, IS...”

For me that is crucial, we are born completely connected to this field, we are one with all reality, and we cannot distinguish our self from all else, we are in a cosmic union, the ultimate nonduel state, Nirvana, but we are not conscious of self. At birth there is no ego, but as we become more competent and confident, we begin to develop a greater and greater ego. The thing is, this ego still does not perceive separation, all else and itself are one, its emotions and the emotions of everyone else, is yet its own, but it is all important, all else serves it. This is the Narcistic phase of childhood development, and comes to a head with the terrible twos. A very important and healthy stage of childhood development which should not be repressed.

This though, is where the problems start for the “omnipotent” youngster as it begins to perceives the limitations of its perceived power to control the environment. Gradually the narcissistic infant begins to realize the sickening, and becomes increasingly separated and unsure of its place in the greater universal scheme. This is a very important development stage, Neurotic stage. Becoming a neurotic teenager therefore is a very important developmental stage out of narcissism, and those who fail to make this transition invariably may become narcissistic adults, and in the extreme case, psychopaths. Interestingly there are two completely divergent ways the pathology develops, the one being because of extreme abuse, the other being extreme spoiling of the child where their anarchistic terrible two year old ego were allowed to flourish, and not brought to a realistic and manageable size.

Thus the separation of the organism is a vital pathway to psychological development. One of the primary aspects of neurosis, guilt, being the important early indicators of an ability to develop a mature conscience. In doing so, that one once again become aligned to the environmental field, but as a healthy mature and powerful ego that contributes to the field, and not in opposition to it. Others neurotic conditions such as self consciousness, allows such an individual to have an appropriate sense of self caring that they may nurture and develop their physical aspects that they may become thriving and vital young adults equipped with the best tools to ensure survival in a oftentimes harsh and unforgiving world.

The interesting thing is that this state of neurosis or insecurity remains for a very long time, oftentimes for life. The ideal though is that we outgrow it and find a meaningful alignment with the organism/ environment field, but as a unique and thriving individual. The reason many do not get to this ideal is that many seek strategies to avoid existential guilt, so to avoid taking responsibility for actions one were responsible for. Usually men are reared to become this way, conscienceless, they are taught to be hard headed, not to feel their emotions, and so not capable of any true remorse or compassion. The other is that one perpetuates in one’s neurosis, usually when one incorporates a fear-based religious belief, and one’s sense of right and wrong comes from the fear mongering dictates of the monster one has nurtured in one’s head. This false sense therefore perpetuates neurosis as it becomes a demon lurking in the murky subterranean depths of our psyche – see The Enforcer and The Vortex.

The latter brings us to the issue of conscience.

In the above you said “what we call ‘conscience’ is nonsense. It is an energy dynamic. If you get away with something, you feel good. If you get caught, your conscience scolds you. Why? Cuz your anger at those who caught you is turned on yourself. Build your mighty moral edifices all you want. It is all about being caught. Of course, the concept of "caught" is a very complex one. I suppose you could "catch" yourself...”

Thus you are saying that conscience is not an intrinsic part of our human beingness, and rather develops in response to what we get away with, a survivalist mechanics of sorts. This is correct in one way in that we can nurture a child’s ability to develop conscience by indeed inculcating in them a moral compass, largely through the process of punishment and reward.

However I maintain that there is a deeper aspect to ourselves that we can refer to as conscience, or higher truth, or Truth. I’ve explained this in Paradox Lost and Found, the follow up book to Understanding Existence which explore the fundamentals of time and space—even delving into and explaining synchronicity(refer to left menu for link) .

I cannot engage on that discussion as it will take too much time, however in the beginning you alluded to an “organism/environment field”. In Paradox Lost and Found I indicated that this is the deepest aspect of our reality, and that its fundamental nature is, that it seeks integration, in other words, Truth, or if you will, conscience. It also is the driver of complex evolution and that it is not a mere survival of the fittest random mechanical process.

The thing is, how can I prove that that such a thing as a Truth seeking field exists?

Not definitively, but there are enough circumstantial evidence to support such a premise. Perhaps the best place to start is that their indeed is a function apparatus such as a lie detector. Basically what it tells us is that we have a biological response to falsehood, it being an anxiety response which is detectable using a number of biosensors. What however is most remarkable is that in numerous scientific studies since 1974, it was conclusively shown that there is no deviation in the accuracy of the tests when applied to measuring the deceit of psychopaths—individuals who are pathologically deceptive and apparently not capable of guilt or remorse, and who have extremely low levels of anxiety. In fact there is no difference in the capacity to detect deceit between a psychopath and one suffering from an anxiety disorder either. And moreover, in a doctoral study by David L. Hammond, it was found that the accuracy for psychopaths were higher than a normal control group.

What does this point to?

It simply suggests that, even for those who have no apparent cognitive regard for truth such as psychopaths, there nonetheless is a conclusive biological (or unconscious) imperative yet capable of discerning truth which responds in a biologically predetermined way to any form of deception. This in the very least shows our biology is perhaps programmed in this way. And perhaps furthermore, if one can align one’s actions towards this in-built Truth field – in other words, to be in integrity – may in fact be beneficial on a cellular level as well. Or as you indicated, when we are out of integrity there is “a separation of the organism from the whole reality the organism participates in, flows into, IS”.

Phew, I’ll leave it there for now.

Newton: Well said. This precisely ties into my point about "decision-making processes" and "realignment practices," as per my second article excerpt in this thread. This movement toward further conscious connection within the t/Truth Field (immanent/transcendent) implies an intentional process of "True/Self" cultivation, as it is known in the East. Perhaps you will comment on this specifically at some point. I would be curious to hear your further and most "furthering" thoughts on this.

With that said, this leaves us with a pile of philosophical conundrums, including the potential for elitist posturings regarding the very concept of "truth," including "Ultimate Truth" and "Reality," including the packaging, marketing, and selling of it, and all the attendant dangers therein. Which takes us back to the Scientology thread...

And, if we go even further down the proverbial rabbit-hole, what if up is actually down, down is up, and Truth itself exists within a series of infinitely expanding Fun-House mirrors, like the end of Orson Wells "The Lady from Shanghai" - a film that features a surreal climactic shootout in a hall of mirrors, the Magic Mirror Maze...(!)

I happen to prefer the Hegelian idea of truth..."The True is the Whole...the Whole , however..."

(note: hope you guys are familiar with the Hegelian "however......" , as in: A is B, however, B is C, and so A is C....on the other hand...")

"however...the Whole is merely the essence which completes itself through its own process of development..."

In other words, the truth of something is to be found in its unfolding. You may say, "wow, this guy's gone pre-existentialist! what an anachronistic asshole!....what about existence before essence, etc..."...but....

Remember! Hegel's always right, he's just, um, mistranslated, misunderstood, etc, poor guy...

Anyway: ....Absolute Truth!!! but...he goes on to neatly define the Absolute as "essentially a result....
it be-comes what it truly is
at the end...that's it's nature: to be actual,
Subject,
the becoming of itself"....

The mirror images are merly moments...each moment is certainly as true as the next, in an absolute sense...but there is always MORE to the unfolding, the unfolding certainly never ends...and herein is absoluteness...a growth to absolute-ness ( a better word could be found) is a perpetual growth, and whether there is some Teilhardian Omega point is really a fruitless discussion right now...maybe...ha...after some more unfolding...
_____________________

Now that I've thrown an Hegelian wet-blanket over everything, the Elitists with their concern for individual diversity, especially the individual right to pursue fame & fortune in the academic arena & end up all Michael-Douglassy cynical & cool & decadent like in ...that movie, um..."wonder Boys"...

will say: no good, yr Foucault is rusty & yr Derrida is non-existent & you miss out the fun in the fun-house of mirrors...pshaw, i answer...."Nature," my dead German Idealist friend says, " is by no means something finished & fixed for itself....it reaches it aim and truth in Spirit....as Spirit is not abstractly beyond nature,
but Shows itself to BE Spirit by its..."

(gasp)

"containment and subjugation o f nature"

definitely could choose better (non-german ) terms here....
but: the point after all this is...
lie detectors detecting a growth to truth, a discernment of the reality of something even if not (egoically) recognized, for repression reasons, is certainly plausible...

and! this explains the poison oak.........

Jim

Angie, it can indeed become a conundrum, but perhaps you can follow my input in the following post, The Road Less Traveled – Discipline, where I discussed it with James.

And about commodifying Truth, this should be obviated by any true search for individual truth and the nurturing of an strong healthy conscience which is an individual compass, this does not require any method or technique to cultivate, but a willingness to hold a higher sense of right and wrong as the ultimate virtue. It’s extremely complicated to even go down here at this time of the evening, but I will pursue it in the course of tomorrow. However, it must be the searcher of Truth’s responsibility to seek it diligently, and with full awareness, and that perhaps Juddu Krishnamurti’s A Pathless Land, is perhaps a personal mantra one should cherish while pursuing one’s own path.

I agree with you, James, "absolutely" - Indeed, this DOES explain the "poison oak" - a most wonderful, nature-based process-analogy for....??????!!!!!? [what is the poison here? my own self-deception? the deception of others? the social poison that can only lead to one "end" for "The Idiot"? Perhaps I am still finding out the 'answer' to that...)

Now, to bring in Nature / Matter into focus more specifically: I don't know how it is for others, men especially, but my body has its own "truth" detector built into it. My earliest memories (this goes back to infancy, and I can empirically support this statement) include an awareness of "reality distortion," even when it was the "big people" (daddy/mommy) doing the distorting. This might explain the undiagnosable "illness" I came into the world with (let's face it: Lord knows what soaked into the amniotic fluid from the topsy-turvy "alcoholic" home life my fetus developed within whilst in my histrionic and broken-hearted mother's womb) that rendered me unable to "digest" (food/milk, etc), resulting in my nearly dying of starvation/malnutrition despite the erstwhile attempts of the doctors of various children's hospitals to "save" me.

Over time I mysteriously "outgrew" the mysterious, debilitating illness (ran past it like a house-on-fire on my little stick legs that barely supported my distended, Biafra-Baby like belly); I guess after deciding on some unknown level to live, "r/Regardless", BUT, my body continued to act like a vibratory "truth" meter as time wore on (and wore on me). Said differently: If I attempted to delude myself and buy into the "distortions" being "fed" to me by others (including those who purportedly "loved" me and were concerned for my welfare), I would become seriously physically ill, and/or, be overcome with dreams so literal and also symbolic that only an idiot would be able to avoid the message - Such dreams began early, the most vivid one of my entire life thus far occurring by the age of four.

I agree in this limitless "expansion" (BTW: what does Modern Physics currently say about the "expanding" Universe lately? Last I heard it may actually contract at some point; others say it will only continue to expand) as "truth-in-the-unfolding"; C.S. Lewis would like there to be some order to it and some decisions and choices of the moral kind are fundamental to his thought. He disagreed here with Blake, who took a more "amoral" stance (but perhaps, amoral more like the "Tao Te Ching" is "amoral" [a "Godless" system, with the Sage flowing with Nature as effortlessly as a river to the sea, thereby always moving in a state of high Teh, or, "virtue" within his human experience] - C.S. Lewis as Confucious and Blake as Lao Tzu might be the fastest way to convey my thought here.

So what about those who consciously embrace both the "order" and "disorder" / (creative chaos) at the same time, within the same psyche / egoic personality? Talk about being "symbolically enhanced" (challenged), as James E. might say! Those of us who actually LIVE this way, versus THINK this way, i.e., fearlessly (okay, even fearfully, sometimes) embracing Nature's paradox beyond mere intellectual theory only: Do we quietly implode and lose our minds all together at some "point" once in the middle of the "symbolic stream"/'overload'?...At what "point" does one reach "the point" of no r/Return (and here I mean "Return" in the sense that a proper Taoist might mean it [think "Returning"] as well as a different sort of "r/Returning" that only those who have fallen all the way (or seemingly all the way) off the edge of the dam might understand...And lived to tell about it.)

Well???

Angie, I think you've melded with Emmerling, I cannot discern any meaningful distinction in thought here. I'll have to watch as this unfolds.

Angie,
Perhaps this is where sexual differentiation of the human species is meaningful...you speak of actually LIVING symbolically enhanced...indeed, your body itself seems to be the canvas upon which Nature and God are struggling...to steal some of your (friend? enemy?)'s Ms. Paglia"s thoughts from "Sexual Personae":

"The sexes are caught in a comedy of historical indebtedness..

.(the very language and logic modern woman uses to assail patriarchal culture were the invention of men...Western culture having from the start swerved from femalesness...Men, bonding together, invented culture as a defense against female uncanny power....)

...the identification of woman with nature...troubled and troubling term in this historical argument...Man, repeled by his debt to a physical mother..."

"Woman, at first content to accept men's protections, now inflamed with desire for her own freedom, invades man's systems and suppresses her indebtedness to him as she steals them. BY HEAD MAGIC SHE WILL DENY THERE EVER WAS A PROBLEM OF SEX AND NATURE..."

Nonsense. There's a big damn problem. Woman is basically enslaved by Nature, isn't she? Her...rhythms...her deep (and now revered, but cmon: arent they unpleasant?) connection with the chthonian Mother, whom Man struggles with all his might to escape....

and builds edifices of abstraction...culture...that woman invades but CANNOT STOMACH...she vomits them forth, they poison her if she introjects them..."Equality", she demands, but she cannot feel that Man's Systems were built in flight from Woman, and thus are just no damn good for Her...or Him, of course...

As a Man, I have been numb and hollow for 25 years....I have been continuously nauseous and "de-PRESSed" , pushed down to Nothing....by the systems of my fellow men....and I have seen them , too, become violent primates over insignificant dominance & territorial issues.... my body as a "truth Meter" reads:

It is nothing, "statues made of matchsticks crumble into one another"....or...

hang on, gotta post

...I think my original point was that you, as Woman, "embrace Nature's paradox", while we men struggle to escape from the Mother...yet also must make our (at first reluctant) return to Her Embrace...that's a damn tough one, I gotta tell you...it's easier for men to remain in their groups...their teams...their hunting parties....to go to woman, said Nietzsche, make sure to bring a stick....! Poor guy, the way Ms Salome treated him....). Perhaps the return to the Mother beigns...begins...with an intellectual embrace of Nature's paradox...but to tell men, "get back to nature, boys" is cruel
advice...Blake said: "The outward creation means ZIP to me"....

Blake as Lao Tzu is very near perfect, for he retreated and left a Book (with Pictures!)...well, but..CS is now known for Narnia, not for "mere christianity" (except maybe by Monte Canfield)...the easy slip into a timeless kindom of talking animals and battles of maximal importance...and royal Lions...

We have but cowardly lions today...

oh! and scarecrows & tin men! ....etc

Newton: I have to agree with you. Yesterday I seem to have been overcome by an affliction of Emmerlingism, no less severe than my poison oak. But I have to tell you, it felt damn good to write all that, and I stand by it still.

James: From your post today: It is nothing, "statues made of matchsticks crumble into one another"....or...

Once again, you enlighten my own poems to me (refer to 'Headwinds' and the statues gathering dust...). So, once again, I take off my fictional (and most manly, fedora-like, think Madonna and Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake) hat to you.

Your synopsis, above, neatly and cleanly explains why I reject the basic fundamental precepts of "Feminist" theory. I have passed through all that and stand at the other side. Where that is, exactly, I do not know, but I have yet to find women writing about what I live without defaulting to Paganism, Pagiliaism, Feminism, or other sorts of ismismisms.

Now, a woman like me could do a Cat Stevens - Remember the amazing, "nondual" type stuff he was writing in the 70's ("I think I see the Light, Coming through me, Coming through me, Giving me a second sight...So SHINE SHINE SHINE")?...Rumor has it that after "My Lady (Patty) D'Aubanville" dumped him, this following one or more "bad trips" on "bad" LSD tabs, or similar, he suffered a crisis of i/Identity, and (in my opinion), retreated to the relative containment, structure, and safety of fundamentalist Muslimism, where boundaries and borders are clear, and one can find some order within the "chaos" of the seemingly infinite, ever-expanding field. So, when I say I could pull a "Cat Stevens", I mean I could adapt myself to, be bound by, or retreat into the various "male-made" systems that by their very nature attempt to subjugate and contain the in-fact-uncontainable - rationalizing that this is for my own psychic safety, and yet, and yet...something critical withers and dries up inside when one abandons and betrays their very nature, so this does not seem the ideal situation either, although women everywhere do this all the time.

In my case, perhaps, given my childhood sickliness and perennial "visions" and "visionary dreams", my mother should have offered me as a tithe to some Catholic Church (despite our not being Catholic, but as Episcopalians, we were darned close, and my grandfather WAS a Priest, after all). This is what happened to Hildegard of Bingen, of course. It is interesting to consider how Von Bingen (to learn more, go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen) "was hesitant to share her visions, confiding only to Jutta, who in turn told Volmar, Hildegard's tutor and, later, secretary. Throughout her life, she continued to have many visions, and in 1141, at the age of 42, Hildegard received a vision she believed to be an instruction from God, to "write down that which you see and hear." Still hesitant to record her visions, Hildegard became physically ill. In her first theological text, Scivias ("Know the Ways"), Hildegard describes her struggle within:

"But I, though I saw and heard those things, refused to write for a long time through doubt and bad opinion and the diversity of human words, not with stubbornness but in the exercise of humility, until, laid low by the scourge of God, I fell upon a bed of sickness; then, compelled at last by many illnesses, and by the witness of a certain noble maiden of good conduct [the nun Richardis von Stade] and of that man whom I had secretly sought and found, as mentioned above, I set my hand to the writing. While I was doing it, I sensed, as I mentioned before, the deep profundity of scriptural exposition; and, raising myself from illness by the strength I received, I brought this work to a close - though just barely - in ten years. [...] And I spoke and wrote these things not by the invention of my heart or that of any other person, but as by the secret mysteries of God I heard and received them in the heavenly places. And again I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, 'Cry out therefore, and write thus!'[5]"

Hildegard's vivid description of the physical sensations which accompanied her visions have been diagnosed by neurologist (and popular author) Oliver Sacks as symptoms of migraine, in particular because of her description of light. Sacks, as well as other scholars, argue that the illuminations that appear in Hildegard's manuscripts confirm that Hildegard suffered from 'scintillating scotoma.'[6] END OF QUOTE

Don't you just love Oliver Sacks "diagnosis" of Von Bingen's transpersonal experiences/visions? So, that is what explains her heavenly compositions and ecstatic paintings carved from her very Soul? THEY WERE ALL A RESULT OF MIGRAINES!!!

I rest my case.
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