I finally read that post about OS and American Idol.
Hmmm. (I do like all the people involved in that little kerfuffle--my lord--I love that word--but it got me to thinking a bit. yes. dangerous, isn't it?)
I'm not much of a fan of reality tv. I think it encourages extraordinarily snobby elitism and schoolyard cruelty. I left high school behind me with relief. But some of my friends say I'm the snobby bitch for not liking it. I don't know. Maybe. I know it makes people yell at each other a bunch over nothing. For instance, just who was that Richard Hatch guy and why did I keep seeing his rubbed out (for the cameras) naked body in the news?
Have I mentioned that quotation marks, incorrectly place ... er .... never mind about that.
Anyway, this is not to say that I think anyone's being snobby or cruel or elitist. I don't think that's the problem exactly anyway. Let's just put those words aside for a second ... although unattached to their meanings ... they are attractive words, aren't they? I like them. Not their meanings. Those things are bad. But the words themselves ... they have such pretty consonants and vowels. The sound of them is quite lovely.
Go ahead. Say "elitist" aloud. One could almost imagine naming one's child "Little Elitist Smith" or something like that. Please don't. For God's sake. I had a friend who named her kid "Moon." Sigh. I didn't even try to explain what would happen in high school to this poor girl.
But you know, it sounds pretty.
Forgive the segue ... where was I? Oh yes. Speaking of writing. And what a writer is.
Of course, definitions are painful things, aren't they? Not to get all "Jacques Derrida" on you, god bless his French soul, but definitions aren't always what they appear to be. I love the Oxford English Dictionary for this very reason. The Word is always fluid and in form. I like to notice how many words actually go from meaning one thing to meaning its opposite over the years. Always moving.
Darn. A segue again. Sorry about that.
What is a writer?
I think we should pose it as a series of questions. Let's pretend we're reading the latest edition of Cosmo and taking a quiz. If we answer a.) b.) c.) and so on, we're whatever the majority of our answers are.
THE COSMO EDITION OF WHAT IS A WRITER
1. You're a writer if
a.) you sit up late at night writing wildly even though you should be sleeping ... because you have to do it
b.) your husband/wife/significant other calls your computer "the mistress" (I don't think gender matters on this one. And "the mistress" sounds so sexy.)
c.) you write poem after poem after poem and then erase them all in a daze of horror ... or worse ...you don't
d.) you have someone who isn't related to your work want to read more.
e.) you think you're a writer
f.) you get paid to write
2. You know you're a writer on OS if
a.) Kerry or some other editor here gives you an EP
b.) you sit up late at night writing wildly even though you should be sleeping ... because you have to do it.
c.) your husband/wife/significant other has found the scissors and is cutting the ethernet connection to the computer
d.) you write work after work after work and then really hope no one comments, one way or the other, on your abilities. I mean, who the fuck cares about that part? Do they read it? Do they rate? Do you really care? Who are these people anyway? They won't stop you from sitting up night after night writing ... because you have to do it! In fact, with few exceptions, none of them are even experienced editors! They're regular dudes like you! Shit. Some of them even watch that stupid American Idol. And so what if the last book you read that you liked was by Nora Roberts? Just don't tell them that!
oops.
e.) you get on the cover
f.) you get some other poster complaining that your plebian post was on the cover whilst theirs languished, weeping in the corner
g.) you get paid and get begged by the OS editors to come here
h.) All grammar and punctuation is correct. Er, I mean, "correct."
3. You're a writer if
a.) you love to do it, damn what anyone else says, good or bad.
b.) you love to do it, damn what anyone else says, good or bad.
c.) you love to do it, damn what anyone else says, good or bad.
d.) you love to do it, damn what anyone else says, good or bad.
e.) you love to do it, damn what anyone else says, good or bad.
f.) you get paid
g.) All of the above.
Oh! Wait! What? You want to know what makes someone a good writer, nay, a great writer, nay, a brilliant writer, because that's all you're gonna read/comment on/approve of/accept.
Well, let's start at the beginning.
Have I mentioned my friend who named her kid "Moon?" It's an interesting story ....
EDITED TO ADD, PER REQUEST, HE WHO IS HANDSOME AS PERFORMANCE ARTIST:

And here's a link to some great poetry by Wallace Stevens:
Wallace Stevens at Poetry Foundation.
My favorite is "The Emperor of Ice Cream."
Also edited to add: Julie's post was just the springboard for these ideas, and I'm not saying that those sorts of inquiries, into what writing is, aren't important. Her post was very important, or we could all shut up about it, yes? heh. Well, anyway, thank you to Julie for the post. I may not agree with parts of it or agree with all the commentators underneath, but I do respect those opinions. And would love to debate it incessantly. And then, ultimately, bore the living shit out of everyone. ;)


Salon.com
Comments
For what it's worth, I enjoy writing when the mood takes me. That's all it is for me.
;) I'm one of those balloon puncturing people. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your viewpoint, that is, if you're me, my mother is really good at it, too. sigh.
(And, as an aside, I have a friend named Journie ... )
My answers: 1. F 2. E 3. G.
Seriously, I was more thoughtful and wryly amused. I don't think Juli meant anything bad by it. But the comments got a little hoity toity there. We should all de-hoity toity ourselves on a regular basis.
Perhaps especially me.
Dick Swett.
Dick Swett!!!
(I think I just need to buy some Depends.)
Mmmmmm Derrida, binaries (inaudible Homer Simpson gurgling)
Er ...
I love that letter. Thanks.
(I knew some folks whose parents named them Rain and Thunder(their last name was McCloud). Hahahahahaha! Yeah, they changed their name soon as they could. Their parents were hippies. :)
Rilke always makes my heart just sort of quake. In a very good way. Sounds corny, I know.
By the wayeth and offeth the subject, EVERYONE, get thee to Freaky's new post. It will amuseth you. And maketh you hungry.
And speaking of weird names, did you hear about that governor that named her kid Trig?
I'm a writer!
Thanks :)
I've met people I would like to discourage from writing anything more than their signature on a check, because I found their prose so dire it literally made me scream in pain.
But I can spend hours on OS, looking for new blog entries by friends and acquaintances, all of which I find worthwhile and interesting. Then I look at the stuff THEIR friends have posted lately and before I know it, it's one in the morning.
I do notice really bad grammar and bad spelling is one of my pet peeves. But most of the people here can write grammatically enough that I don't get distracted. In any case, I'm not here to be anybody's English teacher. Especially since I commit plenty of grammatical sins of my own.
barn manure shoveling, milking goats who groan from mastitis, piglets urination odor, oinking e.i.e.i.o,
and also to avoid the wretched booming.
a precocious male donkey a heehaws.
petty grunts. animations, urinations.
e.e. cummings may have been estranged? a ambulance driver in a war, and never dreamed he'd pen down thoughts people would view as poetical, or entertaining the publics curiosity. Or Interest. He'd not anticipate two-cents, a penny, or $1.98 for his thoughts, and he wrote just as his inwardness "spoke" and he yielded. A lips uttered .
O Ignore?
Fluttered.
Birdsongs.
some never wanted to try and comprehend. before a trip to ny city, e.e. no-not,
had a clue what to pack, tutus, fresh fruit, a wrinkled bag, a leather suitcase, a crack pipe, powder power for diaper rash (urination)?
but i betcha, e.e. cummings never aka. Moo Moo, and flop flop in
a barn like a quack quack? huh. I wager a three dollar bill (fake),
that a ambulance writer doesn't pack a thesaurus when she/he sets off for the moon flight.
I write to procrastinate.
Who don't dislike waxing?
Why wax brick kitchen floors?
huh.
Well, where else can a writer practice their skate board skills? huh.
I think writers stink like my armpits? huh. I love to read others! But,
i am afraid i stank like a goat again. my mommy was astonished that i made it past the 8th grade alive. My beard was grey. The morning Fried egg yellow
yoke dripped off.
Yes. On a take-home to the pig-sty barn house, take-home-Test. my chin fuzz-beard was as yellow as a peach. and onto my math paper homework. it dripped. Test? 1+1=2. I'd have to write that 250 times. huh.
I forget stuff. Writers write dumb stuff for a GED.
I wrote on:`How many peach fuzz frolics = a bier?
Beer and beard are not easy to remember to spiel.
The last request for publication of mine was in the Wall Street Journal. It was for the Free Nexus Giveaway. It was a refuse. The editor said:`We send a memo to bebop-o.
no bother. WSJ editors snored fir three days post your fowl farm pad entry.
Never, never, ever, ever... send a stinking yeller pad to WSJ agin.
okay. i went blank.
I got rejected. boo.
Writers sleep under the flea bitten mattress, and scare the cool boogie women?
NYT & Wa/Po?
smell like urine?
edit.
O watch galaxies.
i boo cry if deleted.
i blame moon hazes.
That you inspired Stellaa to bring this Rilke guy to the party is pretty impressive.
As it relates to the name thing, Moon isn't that bad, just a bit bizarre. Some of my students come in with some strange names and I am wondering, WTH were their parent(s) thinking?
BTW: I guess I'm a writer. I'm up @ 3am when I should be sleep.
All right I confess. I took it wayyyy too personal that the original negaholic commented about "EP" articles being poorly written. Since I am a new kid in the playground I assumed it was me. Now how mature is that? I have NO clue why I made EP, or how I made EP.
I'm just a word addict. I put them down and people react or they don't react.
I've written about what writing means to me. For me, it's my lifeline, my way of taking what's inside and putting it outside. I drive myself nuts these days. I'm always writing stories in my head, itching to have a pen in my hand, itching to tell a tale. Doesn't matter if I do it well or ill. That's what being a writer means to me. Thanks for your terrific essay.
I hope you don't mind if I take a cut at this "What is a writer?" business, though it'll be easier for me if it's "Am I a writer?" To the latter question, I'd say, "No." If I explain why, it may produce a negative space against which the people who answer "Yes" will stand out. I'm not a writer because...
...I write to communicate ideas, and the writing serves the ideas, not vice versa.
...For me, personally, other things I do are more important than writing. Many other things.
...If I could magically have any reputation I could wish for, among family, friends, and acquaintances, it would not be "He's a writer."
Those are the main things that come to mind. I think I could be doing all the same things a writer does (writing, thinking about writing, publishing, and so forth) and yet I still wouldn't consider myself a writer. It's a matter of perspective.
Today I shall be a brain surgeon. Tomorrow I shall call myself a therapist. Next day a financial planner. And so on.
Who is the eltisit? The person who stands in front of the painting and says "My 3 year old could do this?" or the painter himself?
Being an artist of any kind is a thing unto itself. (As we used to say, long ago....waiting for the flames.........)
and yes. "mistress" does sound sexy, but maybe that's just becaiuse I'm so single...
I think the question is one that attempts to distinguish between craft and art. For instance, the critiques (directed at various authors) about spelling, grammar, syntax, content, organization, style, etc are issues of skill and craftsmanship. However, mastery of those devices is only marginally relevant to the business of writing well.
Kalvin's opposition aside, the Rilke quote hits the mark. But, in terms of this craft/art business, art is BEYOND craft. I think the ancient Greeks (of course) had some sensible notions about this stuff--the idea that "genius" (sorry odette) is outside of our human control--beyond cause & effect--we merely cooperate with it. That makes sense.
Another great quote: A reporter says to an athelete (some famous guy I can't remember now...whatever) who had just made an impossible play, "What a lucky shot." And the guy says, "Yeah, it was. But I notice I'm a lot luckier when I've been practicing."
This link was posted elsewhere but bears repeating:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html
I can't think of anything.
It's really, really scary.
I had an entire piece about the gross injustice of my child having to sell things for school, but it sucked.
Make it stop.
Do some sort of JodiFunnyRainDance.
(thumbified because I'm NOT writing...WTF?!?)
I just write, if it is on paper or otherwise.
I am glad you have spelled it out for me.
i am still grinning.
(rated) it made me laugh
I get weary of the argument outside OS and I get weary of it inside OS. Read it or don't -- whatever -- there's such a thing as a "back" button. *sigh*
JustCathy--Absolutely! Me too. Sometimes, when I write something, it really helps me. And reading stuff here is honestly pretty wonderful.
Saturn--heh I wish I knew. Although, in all seriousness, why Salon isn't paying you yet is somewhat beyond me.
Cap'n--I know! Kerfuffle is such a great word!
AE--I think the most important one is "Do you think you're a writer?"
Padraig--You are so sweet. But you know, there's a really good possibility I am a snobby bitch. I try to keep it in line but ... ;)
emma--the closest I ever came was that dance one--but I picked the year that Marie Osmond was on there and it brought back to many childhood memories to watch her. That is, I remembered I was older.
Wayne--yes, and if your father is Frank Zappa, it all makes sense--Although he did name one of his kids something like "Dweezil" didn't he?
Shiral--Oh, I'm full of grammatical sins. And did you know that comma usage is something that changes with the times. It's totally true. That's what makes it so confusing for some people. My diss advisor (who was born a bit earlier than I) and I have running interior arguments about my comma placement because, in his time, it was okay to place the comma in such and such a place and now, that placement is out of fashion. Seriously.
new blog--You may expect a picture shortly.
Arthur--Of one thing I am certain. YOU are a writer. I love your poems.
Chicago Guy--Yet, you'll notice everyone's writing pales next to Rilke. ;) Thanks for your nice words.
trudi--Earning money doing something that you enjoy is the dream, I think.
hermionedwitch--Right on.
Olga--heh 3 am is the perfect time to write.
fingerlakeswanderer--Well, it pales in comparison to yours but I appreciate your kind words. :) You are a writer. There's no doubt about that.
Rob--Ah, I covered that! The one where I said "you're a writer if you think you are a writer." Personally speaking, I think of you as the Extremely Brilliant Guy whose writing always interests me. I do think of you as a writer but ...
But it is self-identification that makes the difference in my mind. If writing, to you, means you have to identify yourself in a certain way, then, absolutely, that's what you are. (I feel like I just fell down the rabbit hole and am now at the tea party. hee hee I'd prefer to be the sleeping mouse, thank you very much). Too, writing is about continuation of production.
I see myself as an academic writer who dabbles unsuccessfully in other things. I put a descriptive word in front of mine to keep it together. ;)
Lisa-- Did you see my definition as easy? I think you need to reread it and think again.
Narrow definitions are easy. I think your definitions are much too narrow. Why can't a truck driver also be a writer? Why can't a doctor? One of my favorite poets, Wallace Stevens, worked most of his life as an insurance adjuster. Yet, he was most definitely a writer.
Is it perhaps that you are trying to differentiate between good and bad writing? Because that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax, just as difficult to define. Art is a whole other story. One might say, for example, that the whole Open Salon project will, one day, perhaps even today, be seen as a whole piece of art onto itself, with its good and bad and mediocre writing. Duchamp's urinal, for example, was it art?
If a bunch of very smarty philosophers are still puzzling these definitions out, I'm fairly confident they're difficult to define.
As for calling people names, you'll note I never actually did that. I don't know who the elitists here are, but I'm fairly certain that the elitist is not the person who sits up late and then puts out their work, only to have it judged as "inferior" by some invisible standard from some anonymous person. I think we have to be very, very careful about saying things like, oh, perhaps, "This writing sucked, but people were saying nice things about it! Why?" I really, really like that person who did say that, by the way, but I do think that was a wrong impulse.
Because, if nothing else, that might, I say might, indicate a mind that is closed. And a closed mind, in my opinion, will never be able to see the artistic impulse in, say, the truck driver or the beautician who posts on her blog before she goes off to work. Or the beauty therein. Because, really, that is beautiful.
Of course, these are just my opinions. If Rilke can't work it all out, I feel confident I won't.
BrianB--heh I should have written "if your husband/wife/significant other has taken your wireless connection and put it in the dryer" but then I was reminded of poor He Who Is Handsome, and I could not do it.
Way to shine a little light on the ridiculous nature of so much of the drama here, Odette. Thank you!
Jodi--I spent an entire year writing parts of my dissertation and then deleting. I think the problem was something about expectations. My advice? Write tons of stuff and it'll work itself out. Of course, what do I know?!? I spent AN ENTIRE YEAR deleting my work at the end of the day, like some mad woman in the attic. It did work itself out though. The dissertation now sits in my head, waiting patiently to come out.
And I would love to read about the kid selling stuff at school thing! I remember in first grade, we sold stuff and got "prizes" at the end for how much we sold. Our first grade teacher wouldn't let us have THE TROLL DOLL (not kidding hahaha) that said, "Kiss me, you fool" because the Bible said the word "fool" was a sin. ha!!!
Mission--hee hee Glad to make you smile. That was my intent, to make someone grin.
Greg--It is all a matter of perspective. For example, I do NOT consider myself a Writer. I consider myself someone who writes fairly well at times, when the stars are aligned correctly. And kind of sucks in between that.
Shelle--It's a pain, isn't it? I don't really understand why everyone wants to put these definitions in a box, wrap some duct tape around them, and call it done.
I love Arthur's stuff.
MB--I'm confused about why we keep trying to do that here BUT that said, I think that writing is just as valuable. One might even be a devil's advocate and say those posts, that attempt definition, are an important part of an inquiring philosophy. Or some such thing. I guess we can't stop asking questions, even if the questions go ways we're not as sure about them going.
Did that make any sense?
If your definition is that one must be paid to write to be a writer, then, that's the definition for you. Great! Then, that works for you. But it does not work for me.
I think perhaps anyone should be able to call him or herself a writer if that is what he or she does, paid or not. Great writer? Well, as I said, that's a whole other thing, even more difficult to talk about and define. If you want to take a whack at it, go ahead.
I see you're getting pretty prickly over this, and to tell you the truth, I really don't get why. I just think something like writing, and expression of the self, is more complex than one person's definition of "what must be so." My definition is wrong, too, and it encompasses as much as it can because, well, it must. If you want to label some writing here as "bad" and "not worthy of your attention" then no one can stop you. Go for it. I think you'll miss out on something important, but well, I guess that's none of my business, just the way it's no one's business here who writes what, who writes well, and who comments and what they say.
Now I have the hunger. Some stuff I write is good, some is great, some sucks. Still---at least for now, as long as the hunger lasts---I am a writer.
I do suspect it is temporary.
For anyone who's interested, I've added some edits up there. I'd like everyone to read the part about Julie, but also, He Who Is Handsome clearly has his priorities straight. I think we should emulate him.
Vac--Now I have to go read your stuff. :)
O--I read your work (even though I'm not a cat person). I think of you and many others here as writers because I like reading the work.
Rather than adjudicating (sp?--they need spell check on the comment tool) who is and who isn't a writer, I can only say why I like reading some pieces and not others. It has to do with structure and surprise, story and character and voice--of the writer's and of those s/he writes about--and, more than that, how the language sounds in my head; the feel of the words and how they're put together. Sometimes I want a meal of words. Sometimes a feast. When I finish reading something, I want to be sated or longing for more. I want a wine of words, or a cigarette, or a piece of meat, or sometimes cake. I want to taste something, new or comfortably familiar, whether the taste is sweet, acid, salty, or sharp.
Feed me, feed me.....
By the way, speaking of reading, everyone stop what you're doing and go read Vac immediately. Seriously.
I try to remind myself of that old saying, "A writer writes." End of story. (And I have 3 words left over)
that is all.
If you say you're a writer, then you're a writer. When J.K. Rowling was sitting at a coffee shop for years writing, completely unpublished and unheard of, was she not a writer? Or was she a writer only after her work was published? Who can define it with any objective criteria? I've read great works by famous authors that I thought were absolute shit. (same thing when I've gone to the Guggenheim Museum and seen art, or stuff that was presented as "art" that I thought was a joke, or in one case, an unpainted door to the ladies room...) Anyhoo. One man's writer is another man's unpainted door that's selling for $250K.
Liked your post and I think I'm getting carried away. It's on account of my pent-up writer's frustration at not having had time recently to write and post anything. It's making me just as jumpy as any sexual frustration I've ever felt!
Plus, this is one of those discussions that doesn't have an easy answer from any of us. I don't think it comes from outside judgment, but from within you. You can tell if you're "a writer." It defines you. It is as much you as your fingers. Now, you may or may not be a "good" writer, and you may have a strange format or an offbeat style, or prefer blogging or more polished poetry. And you may not even write all that much.
But nobody can tell you that you're not when you know it to your depths, and the outside world, whether they read you or praise you or pay you, has little to do with it. There are writers died and nobody have never read what they wrote. But they were "writers."
And btw, Rilke has long sentences. And sentence fragments. All that grammar stuff has nothing much to do with the creative process. That's what editors are for.
Thank you for this!
Yah, call me elitist, but it's true. If putting words down makes one a writer, then cauterwalling in the shower makes me an opera singer.
I think calling oneself a writer is the start of the creation of a writer. A good writer? Oh, well, there aren't many of those anyway. Can many of us write like Rilke? I'm afraid not. Does that mean we shouldn't try? No.
If singing in the shower gives you joy, then, you're a singer. Maybe you're not a Good Opera Singer (which, by the way, those aren't born as much as born and then practiced into being so there's something to be said for those early efforts), but there's an element of identification here that's important to the process.
I think the most important thing here to me on OS is that people be allowed to do well and do poorly and others be allowed to say what they like about those posts without being needled or judged or made fun of. And that was kinda happening in a couple of places here recently.
We should all be allowed to sing our songs in our own way. What I like are the different types of writing, the different ways of being, that aren't mine.
So, if you love to do it, then that's a part of what you are.
I see that there's this desire to separate the good from the great from the mediocre from the poorer works. I don't really understand the desire to do that so ... actively. It seems a bit diabolical and sort of a waste of time. I've found these things will sort themselves out without the active aid of anyone.
That said, I have been a singer in the past; I would have actually called myself that. And, I loved to sing in the shower. It brings great satisfaction and enjoyment. My father used to sing in the shower, and he's tone deaf. But his singing also brought great enjoyment, not just because it was amusing, but because he was so THERE, so in that moment. I don't mind the idea that he would consider himself a singer. Of course, he might not get paid for it ...
And Johnny Cash!! He's wonderful. Truly, Dylan ... his singing got a lot of criticism, but you know, there it is.
My, you just put this all much better than I ... and so much faster! argh. I'll shut up now.
Okay, I lied. I'm really horrified by the name "Elitist Kerfuffle." Except ... what a great name for a new cat. uh oh ...
I have written all of my professional life. The concentration that goes into writing something for money is enormous, it takes skill and practice, practice, practice. And not everyone can do it. In fact, few enough people can do it that because I can, that's how I make my living.
I know not everyone is going to make the distinction that I do, but it's one I'll stand by. And just to be clear, getting paid to write does not a writer make, as I hope is obvious.
But in the absence of economic proof, writing well (and that's the distinction I'm making) is what makes a writer a writer. And writing well requires enormous effort and dedication and, probably, a natural talent.
I used to sing too. I recorded, on my own and with a host of others, but I don't anymore. Now I sing in my living room, so I don't consider myself to be a singer these days. But when I was, I worked hard at it.
It goes without saying that anyone and everyone is free to make any distinctions (or not) that they like, but my personal preference is to reserve the title--artist, singer, writer, musician--for those whose efforts produce results above and beyond. In short, for those who have earned it.
Maybe I'll get flamed for this, but that's how I see it.
But that drive to write ... that's something special that I'm calling out specifically here and discussing.
And I think we can be many things; that's all. I don't think your hard work is denigrated by someone else's less hard work either. So, if the busboy wants to put out his work and calls himself a writer in his deepest heart of hearts, I'm not going to be the one to tell him no. I think it's one thing to have judgment and another to be judgmental, too.
Where we differ is, you define a writer by his or her drive; I define a writer by the quality of his or her work.
But I will happily agree to disagree here.
okay, and now I'm going to do this for an unprecedented second time (ha!). I'm closing comments. I think enough has been said for the moment by me. I'm beginning to bore myself. That is a bad sign. Thank you to everyone for the comments. Very much appreciated input from all.