Thank you for publicizing this. Sigh. I am not the least surprised that my two Senators from AZ are in the thick of this. They're both soulless corporatists--nothing democratic about either one.

"By their fruits shall ye know them," as my favorite Christian said.

I didn't read the whole Greenwald article. Need to do that. He's a journalistic hero--which means in these times that he's best off living in another country since he does not service the plutocracy.

I'm beginning to consider that other country business myself. :/

Some no great surpise, some typical, all worth my sending to FB since my FB page is a bunch of political hienders.

It was predicted long ago fascism would come to this country wrapped in a flag and a cross. No one (on the whole) cares, though, because no one believes it can happen - until it's too late. We're smart like that!

Everyone here ought to take a deep breath…and perhaps re-read, “The Sky Is Falling,” “Belling The Cat,” and “The Boy Who Shouted ‘Wolf.”

And you ought all reconsider the difference between “truly ill-advised” and “treasonous.”

"Hitler" "fascism" "treasonous"!!!!

There is work to be done...no denying that. But this kind of thing is not helping...it is hurting.

Frank, your complete state of denial and ability to overlook actual events never ceases to amaze me. This. Actually. Happened. Much of the conversation, in fact, especially by the Republican Senators was completely and utterly frightening and disturbing. There were discussions about how American citizens did not deserve due process. Again, it actually happened. I'm sorry to say this, Frank, but you are a fool. I'm convinced you have a good heart in there somewhere, and so, someday, you'll look back with remorse on this foolishness, but you are utterly and completely wrong here. I feel sorry for you, because you're so obviously and almost pathologically incapable of good, critical thinking at present. It's odd how you overlook facts and events so very easily.

What would hurt here, and make no mistake, is to ignore how very serious a situation that quite a few Congresspeople are willing to overlook, with great disdain, large segments of the Constitution.

Again, these people have to go. When election time comes, they need to become unemployed.

Bravo!

Yes, we need to vote them out. But then, what do we replace them with? You're in Tennessee, right? Who is there on the horizon here that would be any kind of improvement?

Frank, I'm not sure what it would take for you to become concerned. Fascism, police states, they usually don't happen all at once. It's a series of erosions that have a cumulative effect.

Have read a fair amount about this proposed legislation (which your president has vowed to veto, last time I checked), and, while I agree that it's a horrendous assault on your laws, the thing that concerns me is the assumption you have the right to do the same damned thing in other countries. Skypixie0 has fairly outlined the situation from an outsider's perspective.

Just heard this story on NPR in my truck. My reaction mirrors yours. Your drawn parallel to Hitler/Nazi party is not at all off base.

But this can't be happening under the "most transparent" president who spoke only of Hope and Change.

Well it is happening, Deborah. And unlike most people who voted for Bush, we are willing to admit that this President is not doing well when it comes to civil liberties. But don't let that get in the way of another of your political digs.

Jeanette, you wrote: Frank, I'm not sure what it would take for you to become concerned. Fascism, police states, they usually don't happen all at once. It's a series of erosions that have a cumulative effect.

I am, and have been, “concerned” for a good long while now…and attempt to influence the direction in which the country is moving by writing as extensively as possible. I’ve had op ed pieces published in newspapers throughout the country…and over in Europe.

I do not disagree that there is plenty wrong…and that the stuff that is “wrong” has to be corrected—but as far as I am concerned, all this posturing, name-calling, over-statement, and obstinacy NOT ONLY DOES NOT HELP…it hurts.

The “Hitler” comments…the “fascist state” comments…the “treason” comments simply fortify the mindset of a MAJORITY of the American public that the left is loony. This kind of crap is not helping to make the progressive agenda any more attractive to the mainstream American public (which is so turned off by liberalism it keeps drifting further and further to the right)…and in fact, IN MY OPINION, is making it less attractive—MUCH LESS ATTRACTIVE.

I mention this kind of stuff when appropriate because I want a more progressive agenda to prevail for our country…and I am willing to let people like Odetteroulette call me “a fool” “utterly and completely wrong” “obviously and almost pathologically incapable of good, critical thinking.”

I am not a fool, Jeanette. I am not utterly and completely wrong. I am not pathologically incapable of good, critical thinking. Not at all. But if it makes Odetteroulette happy to think that…and you happy to agree with her assessment—go for it.

Frank, the things I said in my comment are what I said. They are not the things that odetteroulette said. Please don't put anyone else's words in my mouth.

That being said, I'm not sure that it helps to sugar-coat the very obvious trend here. You call that making it more attractive. I call it dumbing down.

This is really terrible and scary. When I voted for Obama, I believed he would close Guantanamo. And it's predictable that Cornyn and Hutchinson, the Texas senators, would vote for this bill. I don't know what we can do, it seems like our rights are being stripped away moment by moment.

Fine, Senators, I'll make you a deal. Put me in charge of your police state and I'll happily give you the privilege of being the first group of American citizens to be rounded up and tossed in permanent lock down. You're welcome.

Well, Deborah, actually, at present, he's threatening to veto anything like that. These would be mainly Republican conservatives and Blue Dog Democrats that formulated this bill. So, unless he signed something like this into law, he wouldn't really be at fault for things happening in Congress. But, it's typical to blame him instead of the people actually involved, if you're conservative. :/

Why do you love terrorists so much?

(I'm paraphrasing Mr. Apisa)

Frank, the Nazi comments are not to call these Senators 'Nazis' but to note that, in fact, this is what the Nazi party did before their bid for world domination. It would be stupid not to note that.

It doesn't "make me happy" to think you are wrong, Frank. You are wrong. What would your response be? Because mine is to push to remove these people from office in the next election. Not one thing about that is crazy or even looks crazy. You just don't want to admit you're wrong. That's okay. You don't have to do that. But, it would be great if you could pull a fact out occasionally, instead of your assessment which always favors the conservatives. You always have an excuse for them, some reason it's going to be okay. But, your excuses don't make any sense! I sound crazy because I compare the law they're trying to pass to the one the Nazi party did pass? Er, it would be crazy if it weren't so goddamned true! But it's true, Frank! I'm not making it up!

Sigh. I just can't bother with you right now. You are so set on your delusions and desires for what you want to be true, I feel bad for you. Really. But, we have to stop arguing amongst ourselves and get these creeps out of office.

Drew--ha! Yeah. Kittens.

It doesn't "make me happy" to think you are wrong, Frank. You are wrong.

I think it does make you happy to think I am wrong, but that is just what I think. In any case, I am not wrong.

We both want the same thing…a better America and, by extension, a better world.

Because mine is to push to remove these people from office in the next election.

You are not going to remove these people in the next election no matter how hard you push—and quite honestly, the fantasy aspect of your approach is part of the problem. You just do not know how to be measured…you are constantly taking a chainsaw to situations that require a scalpel…and a qualified user of a scalpel.

You just don't want to admit you're wrong.

I have no problem admitting (or acknowledging) when I am wrong…and this comment of yours is just a gratuitous slur. Don’t know why you have to do so, but if it makes you happy…

But, it would be great if you could pull a fact out occasionally, instead of your assessment which always favors the conservatives.

Boy, my many conservative friends would love to read that! They consider me to be a blazing liberal. For the record, I despise American conservatism and all it stands for. I am for a very progressive agenda.

My problem with you (and many liberals like you) is that I consider your intemperance and hyperbole to be an aid to them…a turn off of massive proportion to people who are in the middle and undecided.

Sigh. I just can't bother with you right now. You are so set on your delusions and desires for what you want to be true, I feel bad for you. Really. But, we have to stop arguing amongst ourselves and get these creeps out of office.

More gratuitous slurs that you dress up trying to make them look cogent and reasonable! As has been noted by many: You can put lipstick on a pig, but it still is a pig!

If you really want to attract people to your cause, you are doing a lousy job of it with these kinds of posts, Odetteroulette. The entire of the far left liberal community has been doing a lousy job of communicating with the middle of the political spectrum, which is the reason the middle has moved so far to the right. If you keep this crap up, soon you will not be able to communicate with the middle at all.

That is the truth.

I think I made poor Frank angry

Look, Frank, I know you're trying to discredit me and all, but wouldn't it be better if you stopped using massive generalizations, took a look at the actual events, stopped belittling other peoples' arguments, stopped pretending your opinion is fact, and stopped acting like these people are cemented to the Congressional chair they hold forever. They're not. There are these things called elections. I think, if we all work together, I know it's so crazy! it's this thing called general elections! Crazy! So hyperbolic. I think we can get quite a few of these people out of office. It's not like they inherited their seat.

You're not going to be able to insult me into anything, Frank. You need facts. Let me throw some at you. The Senate just tried to pass a bill that would make putting American citizens in jail indefinitely. A few of the Senators said ALOUD (I know. So hyperbolic!) that it would be best if due process were put aside. I put their names up. Because we need to know who doesn't respect, understand, or believe in the Constitution. Because people who don't respect, understand, or believe in the Constitution shouldn't be holding public office. There are these things called ELECTIONS. I believe if we all work together, we can kick some of these asshats out of office.

Yes. It's all so hyperbolic. It's also ... what IS the word I'm looking for ... let me think ... oh yeah ... part of ... what is it again ... AH ... part of my civic responsibility to vote and to campaign for or against people who run for public office.

So. Yeah. I guess you don't think anyone should be doing that? I mean, I know that's not really true, but heck, Frank, that's what you're saying. Do you realize that?

Incidentally, and make no mistake about this, I don't give a good goddamn what anyone thinks about me, outside of the people I love. It's a waste of time.

I know. It's shocking. I should be upset a bunch of conservatives will be chuckling over their massive generalizations about liberals while the people for whom they voted wipe their butts with the Constitution and destroy all the founding principles of our country, one by one.

Because that’s a valuable use of their time. Now. Go away, Frank. If you can’t contribute more than the obligatory “Get off my lawn” I’ll remind you that this is my lawn. If you can’t contribute more than this, you should get back over there. You’ve got some aimless chuckling to do. Let me get you a fiddle and you can play that, while you stand over there.

Read my first post…and your reply to it.

YOU, not I, were the person to initiate insulting remarks.

As for facts, well…

The entire of the far left liberal community has been doing a lousy job of communicating with the middle of the political spectrum, which is the reason the middle has moved so far to the right.

That is a fact…AN IMPORTANT FACT. That was the thrust of my first comment. This kind of over-reaction is hurting, not helping. We are going to end up with a Republican president…a far right Republican president in great part because of the intemperance and silliness of the far left. The far left has alienated the middle of the political spectrum…don’t you get that???

Stop…take a deep breath…be more judicious in the way you characterize things.

And posting under a phony alias rather than your real name does not further your argument that you are working hard make our country a better place. Have the guts to be out there as a person…not a caricature. And allow for dissent rather than asking people who disagree with you, reasonably and respectfully, to GO AWAY.

Frank, I'm doing a massive MASSIVE eyeroll on the last part of your argument. We're at Open Salon. It's part of the Internet. Do you imagine I only feel this way here? No. I do actually live a life where I am politically active. I don't think my anonymity, such as it is, because let's be honest, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out who I was, detracts very little from any message I have to deliver. Good grief. The 1980s called. It wants its meme back.

As to the rest, Frank, you came on here, on your own, and began this argument. I didn't put up a post saying "FRANK! GET OVER HERE AND TRY TO PICK APART MY ARGUMENT USING ONLY THE SUPERPOWER OF YOUR OPINIONS!!" You came over here all on your own. You're an adult. You know what you did. Sheesh. I'm not gonna waste my time with that.

But see, that's just it. I don't want to waste my time with you anymore. You never have any facts. You don't want to have a meaningful discussion. You just want to rant. Maybe with a little raving thrown in to the mix. It's pointless. It's a waste of everyone's time. I believe I have the talking points of it. 1. You think discussing getting people out of office is hyperbolic. 2. You think that those Senators can't be removed from office. 3. You haven't yet, and I guess never will, address what actually happened or what was actually said. I'm a "crazy, hyperbolic liberal" and all your conservative friends will be horrified and amused. Good for them. Yay.

There. Now, there's nothing more to be said. I have all the particulars. See? But it is my place to have discussions, Frank. That's my point. If you can't come here and at least have a cogent argument in hand, we can do the back-and-forth for a bit, but in the end, it accomplishes nothing. I'm going to do more useful things. I suggest you do the same.

Odetteroulette

You posted a commentary in a public forum…I responded. I responded reasonably and courteously. I suggested that some of the words being bandied about were more likely to turn people off…than persuade them to join in furthering a progressive agenda. I addressed my remarks not only to you, but to the people who rushed to agree with you…people who added more fuel to the fire. I suggested that being more careful might produce better results for an end we all apparently want.

You started with the name-calling (and I really have not responded in kind)…and “eye roll” “1980s called” kind of nonsense.

You are out of control…and being out of control does not help in gaining support for what I consider “our side.” I’d rather let “them” be out of control.

I have no idea of why you think it wouldn’t be hard to figure out who you are, but why not just post using your real name…and make it easier. The anonymity does detract from any message…which is the reason no newspaper in the country would accept a letter to the editor without a real name.


There. Now, there's nothing more to be said. I have all the particulars. See? But it is my place to have discussions, Frank. That's my point. If you can't come here and at least have a cogent argument in hand, we can do the back-and-forth for a bit, but in the end, it accomplishes nothing.

I am being cogent and reasonable…and I am offering a perspective that differs from yours. I ACCEPT YOUR FACTS…they are not in dispute. What is in dispute is our differing opinions about how we ought react to them.

I’ve tried to be courteous…I’ve tried to be reasonable…and I think I have succeeded.

Well, Frank, I think your reaction is like falling asleep in the middle of a war. I'm awake.

"Obama has dropped his threat to veto the bill and is now expected to sign it into law. Remember – it was Obama’s White House that demanded the law apply to U.S. citizens in the first place.
The bill which would codify into law the indefinite detention without trial of American citizens is about to be passed and sent to Obama’s desk to be signed into law, even as some news outlets still erroneously report that the legislation does not apply to U.S. citizens." Thank you, I accept your apology.

"Human Rights Watch said that Obama’s decision “does enormous damage to the rule of law both in the US and abroad” and that “President Obama will go down in history as the president who enshrined indefinite detention without trial in US law.”

Odetteroulette said: "So, unless he signed something like this into law, he wouldn't really be at fault for things happening in Congress. But, it's typical to blame him instead of the people actually involved, if you're conservative." Maybe instead of snarking at people pointing out the truth you might be humble and listen. This act is absolutely shameful. And anti-constitutional.

"Maybe instead of snarking at people pointing out the truth you might be humble and listen. This act is absolutely shameful. And anti-constitutional."

Where were you when the conservative asshat McCain was sponsoring the bill?

Yeah. That's what I thought. I wrote that, unless he signed it, it wouldn't be, in any part, his responsibility. Now that he is, it is his responsibility, too. He is part of the group destroying the country.

By the way, don't speak to me that way anymore. You can't afford the self-righteous stance, since the conservatives started this mess, beginning with Bush, Jr. We have to work together to fix it.

"Condemnation of President Obama is intense, and growing, as a result of his announced intent to sign into law the indefinite detention bill embedded in the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). These denunciations come not only from the nation’s leading civil liberties and human rights groups, but also from the pro-Obama New York Times Editorial Page, which today has a scathing Editorial describing Obama’s stance as “a complete political cave-in, one that reinforces the impression of a fumbling presidency” and lamenting that “the bill has so many other objectionable aspects that we can’t go into them all,” as well as from vocal Obama supporters such as Andrew Sullivan, who wrote yesterday that this episode is “another sign that his campaign pledge to be vigilant about civil liberties in the war on terror was a lie.”

that's just it

When there's nowhere to go with even your vote, what kind of democracy is it? When they can pick you up in the middle of the night and 'disappear' you, it's not much of one.

Surely, conservatives and liberals stand together on this issue. You have to condemn McCain and his ilk, just as the liberals have turned in anger on Obama, which he deserves, by the way.

I voted for Dennis in the primary. I wish I'd written him in now.