Right on. R

Talk to me about the state of California where if you have lived in your home for 30 years you pay the same property taxes as 30 years ago. Then anyone who has a run down shack they just bought pays through the nose.
Something stinks here.
rated with hugs

Yep......TAX THE KOCH brothers!!!!!

I agree with everything you said. I do think the rich and the GOP want taxation - just not for them - but for working people and the middle-class - as far as they're concerned - tax away. R

OE--this is right on the money (so to speak)
" budget busting tax breaks given to the richest Americans."
...and, this brought me back to a basic question that I have--since when is a $200,000 individual income considered "middle income"? I see people's credit information every day. $200K is wealthy--it's people who buy $20,o00 cars for 16 year old kids. It's people who have $5,000 a month and more mortgages. It's people who own Hummers and Beemers and buy Mazdas as their second car or as their kid's car. Horse manure!

Our conception of what constitutes "wealthy" is being altered because we are witnessing the pauperization of the middle class, which is quickly being eliminated and its members filling the ranks of the proletariat.

200k is upper middle class, in terms of rank. But for many of us, those making 200k certainly seem rich.

The reason the gvt is bankrupt is because the rich aint paying taxes. Companies aren't paying taxes. The savings they get from tax cuts are going into finance and we are investing it in the developing world, namely, China and India.

Goodbye America. It was fun while it lasted. Start studying Spanish and Portuguese, because very soon, we will all be living alot like those who live in Brazil and the rest of South America. Vast disparities of wealth and immense, militant, bloody social upheaval.

It will be a hoot and a hollar. Hooray!

OEsheepdog, let's not forget lucrative farm subsidies!

Check out who is getting the big money in your community at:

http://farm.ewg.org/

That's the farm subsidy database put together by the Environmental Working Group.

Sheba -- The data seems to support this.

Linda -- It's cap on property taxes,

Gary -- Boycott Georgia-Pacific (owned by the Koch Bros.)

Walt -- Agreed.

RW -- you are correct.

John --And why are Big Oil still receiving subsidies?

It's a flim-flam. We're being hoodwinked, bamboozled, and run amok.

Then let's stage a one hour sit down type general strike. just stop doing anything for one hour and refuse to move. Let them carry you off but do not resist. Answer no questions. Do it before it is too late. Stop being cattle/slaves.

Wait a minute! Where are the trillions that were already stolen by Bush, big oil, the corporations, the banks, Haliburton and Cheney? Why are we ignoring the robber down the street who suddenly has a new car and clothes while the police look the other way?

I want my nation's treasure back in the treasury first. And yes, tax the rich more.

Zumapick.

Two simultaeous wars and tax cuts for the wealthy. I can't believe that isn't working out well.

FTM just said it.

The Koch Brothers bought and paid for their front man Governor and the message has been wormed into the hearts of every single beaten up unemployed auto worker from Janesville that the REAL fight is between the poor and the poorest.

What we are flirting with in America is oligarchy. Good post.

How can I rate thee; let me count the ways. Political smokescreen, scapegoating, buying representation, selfish, selfish, uncaring and disdainful rich who would rather see the US become a third world nation than give up a tiny fraction of their disposable income.

There are many rich people who agree. Many have said they would agree to pay more taxes to keep this country from going under. But it's the lobbyists for corporate interests and people like the Koch brothers who are nothing but greedy parasites who refuse to pay their fair share. Yet they are the first to put the flag pins in their labels and take the Pledge of Allegiance. Hypocrites all!

That which did not kill me made me stronger. I’m now strong enough to have no sympathy for the very rich when they get cancer or some other disease. They didn’t want to waste money on inner city education, perhaps the child who would have held the key to the cure died in the ghetto 10 years ago. Perhaps it’s a child starving in another country they are raping of its wealth.

Now all the people who wanted to pay for such things are dying of diseases, those people I ache for. All the regular people have to die because the MoneyPower doesn’t care who dies.

They can rejoice over the millions they saved as they lay dying in agony in the finest hospitals. I can no longer stand to hurt and sympathize for those who chose this for me and you. I’m not going to listen to them whine like babies over their own stupid choice to suffer and die. Your money or your life, they chose to save the money. It’s their own fault.

They are inherently stupid or something. The sooner they learn and change, or die, the safer we will all be. I wish they’d hurry up and learn the simple truth.

Abso-freakin-lutely right on. The title of your post alone says it all -- hope you don't mind if I socialistically redistribute it!

OESheepdog CLAIMS to be willing to pay higher taxes to pay his or her share of taxes.

(ROFL) That would require a 54% tax increase, assuming the average for middlelc-class Americans. That from IRS actual data, available here:

http://tinyurl.com/2cyr4tz

If you dare to look, you'll see the top 3% of Americans now subsidize over 1/3 of the ENTIRE middle-class tax burden -- to the extent that the middle class (including me) would have to pay a 54% tax increase just to pay our own way. And this middle-class subsidy has grown steadily for over 25 years.

Do the math. Learn the truth. Ignore your liberal puppetmasters.

Also see that the middle class pays only 21% of the personal income tax, but got 85% of the Bush tax cut. Tax cuts for the rich! Or nonsense for the liberal sheeple who are no better than the Birthers on the right.

What I see mostly here is the new welfare class, demanding an even bigger entitlement gravy train paid for by others. Shame on you all.

Yes. Great point! "Ask not what your country can do for you... "
Best Wishes,
Blittie

Bill -- Flim flam is correct.

bobbot -- people are too fearful of doing that.

xenonlit --thanks for the pick

Cranky -- no wealthy war profiteer had his taxes cut at a better time.

Roger -- Gary nailed it.

RM -- No we are being overtaken by oligarchy.

ardee -- thanks for rating this.

scanner -- You are correct, Gates and buffett and others have asked that their raised. thay are the real americans.

bleu -- I can see your point of view, and understand it.

smokeysmom -- it is available for your use.

Liberty issues -- Thanks for sharing your opposing point of view. Thankfully, we currently live in a society where people can differ on issues like this. I hope this isn't transitory.

Blittlie -- A wise cat.

Great post!

Truth spoken! I'm just starting to get a handle on how things really work around here. My dad told me all my life that there were only two classes; the super-rich and everyone else. I knew the score in an abstract way for years, but now I can feel the direct sting of it. Sometimes I look at my child and think, I would prefer her ignorance to my understanding and helplessness.

Yep. Drinks root beer, and ponders the fall and rise of civilization.

And where are the windfall profits taxes on corporations that profited obscenely from two misbegotten wars? Or the windfall profits taxes on oil companies, whose products have doubled in price and profits have more than doubled?

Keep in mind, even before he decided to gut unions, Gov Walker gave tax credits to corporations. Ad infinitum

Spot on.

I agree with you completely, OES. You can hear people objecting and thinking that this is the path to socialism.

It's really easy to scapegoat the rich. The problem isn't a war that's been costing billions/year for over a decade. The problem isn't an economy that's gone to hell.

No. It's them! Over there! They're the problem. Tax the hell out of them. Get real.

Why not ask why we're pursuing two wars? Why not think maybe the rich (like plenty of less well-off Americans) don't want to fund an endless war on terror that has destroyed America's reputation with most of the world and done nothing to make us safer.

I did that NYT balance the budget thing and if you end the wars and make the tax code a little less convoluted, you don't have to raise taxes --- on anyone.

Thanks to cuts in state education budgets, we'll be the last generation that can spell "oligarchy."

Yes! When times are this tough, I want to see some willingness on the part of the top 2 percent to take some damned responsibility. They can spare more and feel it less than the other 98% of us. I do not say this out of spite to punish them, but I'm sure sick of all the arguments about their needing to be pampered. Concentrate more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands and you've got a sure recipe for eventual rage. Just ask the Romanovs and King Louis XVI of France.

People don't resent wealth when their own lives are going okay, when they can feed and educate their kids, save for retirement, etc etc. But we DO insist on a decent standard of living for this to be true. Blaming public employees for the current state of things is an ugly propagandist LIE.
rated

Roger -- Thanks.

blue -- Me too.

Surazeus -- as long as it's in a frosted mug.

Tom -- I tried to be brief.

Yheron -- You're living this..so thanks

Catherine -- on the path to totaliterianism

Malusinka -- Scapegoating the rich? I'm watching teachers being scapegoated, public workers being scapegoated, democrats being scapegoated. A hedge fund manager pays just 15% capital gain tax on his income, not even the top IRS rate. Rich people like the Koch Bros., are mainpulating the media and politicians to turn this country into a third world nation.

I've paid into Social Security, it is not an entitlement, I have funded it with my taxes. Now politicians are trying to take what I funded away from me. the tax rate for millionaires in 1948 was 90% today it's 28%. It shouldn't be 90% again and it should be 28% either. I respectfully disagree.

Stim -- they won't need to use it at the Koch Bros. company story with the company scrip they receive.

Shiral -- To be fair, people like Gates and Buffett came out in December asking for the Bush rates to lapse. It seems greed is an entitlement.

Excellent post and a call for action, OE.
♥R

The Rich invest. This does nothing for either the deficit or unemployment. The goal is to avoid taxes on your gains while choosing instruments that maximize yield from enterprizes that are either tax-exempt or moving offshore.

Rock on. Let's add to the toxic mix the almost daily cockcrow of the corporations starting to get hemmorhoids from the huge piles 'o cash in profits they have been accumulating over the past few years -- but -- sorry!! -- no new jobs available. We need that cash! We need to pay our top execs millions every year, now outearning the lowest-paid workers by obscene factors.

The U.S. truly resembles a Third World nation in many respects; the wealthy are all set, thanks; the poor are utterly screwed and the middle class are plunging FAST toward the bottom, either losing jobs or wage increases with gas at $3.40 a gallon when I left NY on Feb. 15.

I am amazed there is not (yet) rioting in the streets. I wonder when or if it will ever come...

I've said it once, and I will say it again,

OESheepdog for President!

^R^

87king -- True, but many give back. I just want them to pay a "fair share".

Caitlin -- Kind of you to comment with more important things going on in your life. It's appreciated.

steves -- I look too much like Mike Huckabee, it would confuse the electorate.

The "rich" -- you remember them; they're the ones that are probably responsible for giving you a job and putting bread on your table -- already pay a grossly disproportionate share of the national tax bill. What do want? Egg in your beer?

They have stolen our country while we sit here and whine and bitch about yet do nothing.
Power be to those who got off of their asses in Madison.

Mr. Osmond -- the "rich" are paying less in taxes than they have since Republican Herbert Hoover raised the income tax for the wealthy to 62% in his adminstration. You know not what you are talking about. I don't advocate returning to draconian rates, just what they were paying in 1999. The rates in 1999 were not draconian. Your testimony, is incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial.

XJS -- True.

OK, I'll be the one to risk sounding dumb. Am I missing something? What's the line drawn through the graph? Is that some sort of weighted average of values at or near that horizontal position?

Oh, I see. I guess that's what I get for not clicking through. It looks like essentially that. Except I didn't mean to say “weighted.” Oh well. Anyway, thanks for the chart. It's quite helpful.

Great so let's start here. Shall we redistribute your wealth or that of those who agree with you? Everyone jumps on the bandwagon and cries foul, but are they willing to live equally to the person next door even if they stay home and collect a check while we work all day? I am willing to bet my last dollar that those who want to play Robin Hood (actually Robbing Hood) really don't want their wealth redistributed. Do some research folks - the only people who truly share the wealth and live equally are nuns and monk and maybe a few scattered communes. Socialism never works and those of you who think it does have your heads in the sand.

@Gordon Osmond
I have never in my entire life been given a job. True enough if someone is "given" a job it is probably by a "rich person" generally an Uncle or old friend of the family, but few of us get those. Jobs, in my experience come from the buying and selling of goods and services and while "rich people" come on over to grab their "taste for being there" the actual effort they put forth to generate and sustain the enterprise that creates jobs is minimal. If given the choice to preserve the life of a CEO or that of a mechanic I say C-Ya CEO. The mechanic does something useful, the CEO not so much.

I agree. There is a moral imperative to tax the rich. Ordinary Americans will only be willing to suffer so much (poverty, homelessness; lack of healthcare) before they demand the obvious solution.

I so agree with you...If just one of the ridiculously wealthy stood up and offered to contribute, what a difference it would make.

I will reiterate my point of view about "rich" and what "rich" is.
Or to put it slightly differently--just when the hell did making $200,000 a year qualify someone for the status of "middle income". For crying out damn loud. I'm going to be generous and suggest anything over $6000 per month is getting out of the "middle income" range. (Both of these are for indivuduals)

But the biggest mystery is why a majority of American side with those who have so much more than they do, why they buy this crap. Hello, Middle America, you are more likely to need a union than you are to make $250k. A really good subversive plot would be to teach basic political economics in school. While there are still teachers' unions.

But the biggest mystery is why a majority of American side with those who have so much more than they do, why they buy this crap. Hello, Middle America, you are more likely to need a union than you are to make $250k. A really good subversive plot would be to teach basic political economics in school. While there are still teachers' unions.

But the biggest mystery is why a majority of American side with those who have so much more than they do, why they buy this crap. Hello, Middle America, you are more likely to need a union than you are to make $250k. A really good subversive plot would be to teach basic political economics in school. While there are still teachers' unions.

"A hedge fund manager pays just 15% capital gain tax on his income, not even the top IRS rate."

We're the only country on earth that refuses to index capital gains for inflation. Instead, one more middle-class subsidy on home-sale profits. After WWII, as suburbia began growing, working families sold their family homes for the first time.

There was a lot of complaining then -- 60 years ago -- about how unfair it was to tax inflationary gains. But instead of indexing for inflation, they just exempted middle class homes.


" I've paid into Social Security, it is not an entitlement, I have funded it with my taxes. Now politicians are trying to take what I funded away from me. "

It's an entitlement after seven years, which is how long it takes for the average worker to receive all their contributions back, with imputed interest. Think inflation. I'm 69 years old. I started out at 25 cents an hour. Social Security benefits are based on your final 10 (or 15?) years of income, WAY higher than the income we are taxed on.

"the tax rate for millionaires in 1948 was 90% today it's 28%. It shouldn't be 90% again and it should be 28% either. "

That seems like a typo!

Thanks to the 90% tax rate, we had five recessions in 15 years, until Kennedy repealed as much of the New deal as he could, which then led to a 10-year unbroken expansion.

There were two reasons we stayed with FDR's ruinous 90% tax rate.

1) We did not need a lot of investment capital, because our industrial base had been totally modernized from the war manufacturing effort. The war had forced a reversal of the New deal.

2) New dealers claim the 90% tax rate caused the postwar boom. But there was no postwar boom, and the last time I checked we had no trade competitors because we had bombed them all into rubble.

So anyone wo wants the 90% tax rate needs to follow the entire scenario of WWII. Spend a trillion dollars modernizing our industrial base. Then go bomb Germany and Japan again. Best add China this time. And, please, no more nukes.

We're the only nation in earth who refused to adopt a growth and investment tax structure after WWII. The others had to, because they had to rebuild. Now they're all cleaning our clock, while our sheeple scream about tax cuts for the rich.

The bank is empty. With well over $150 trillion of debt and unfunded liabilities, we've already spent all the wealth in the wealthiest nation in earth ... mostly to pay for middle-class entitlements.

To be fair, people like Gates and Buffett came out in December asking for the Bush rates to lapse. It seems greed is an entitlement.

OES, I agree and I remember this. Let us by all means be fair. Alas, the Tea Party wanted their pound of flesh, and damn reason

Hey liberty, what do you think we're doing, only it isn't Germany and and Japan, it's Afpaqistan, Iran and was Iraq.

Bring home ALL the troops and dismantle the bases. Rebuild america's decrepit infrastructure and substandard "educational" institutions.

Oh, and gorgon, do give my regards to Luiz.


-R-

Oh, and by the way, where do you think the weapons being used to maim the protesters came from?

Yep, "good" old uncle sam.

Land of the free (free to have your privacy invaded), land of the brave (last two wars won, Panama and grenada).

I've been saving up the pennies for years, rolling 'em up and just waiting for the day when the poorly unenlightened catch a ray or two of light and blossom, rise to the highest of rises and take a few of those zeros from the Zeros who control the zeros.
I'll launch those rolled missiles with pride at the Haves.
Someday
We are inching closer
Rolling another with Hope

OSsheepdog.
I called the AFLCIO,
9-11, the USPU- huh.

(United States Postal Union)

IBEOW
(International Brotherhood Of Wireman)

That's the Electrical Worker Local Union.

I was a dues carrying IB'O'EW - Honest.

IBEW -It's a electrical blue collar union.

I called to ask if they knew any auxiliary.
Those women are worth keeping around.
I ask for One Woman. Can She Cook Good?

I said to the union switchboard operator`
I was I's hairy as a dog - semi-handsome,
and gentler as a baby lamb who bellows.
A operator put me on`Hold-Stand bye.
She's gonna call back at 10:00PM. Bye.
Good read.

A theme close to my heart OE. I've made a similar comment on a few blogs. The U.S. is undertaxed compared to almost every Western style democracy. As a percent of GDP, the U.S. tax 'burden" is about 28%. All the main EU countries plus Canada and Australia range from 33-50%, with most being above 40%. Considering too that the U.S. spends as much on its military as the next 17-20 countries COMBINED, it's no wonder that there's relatively little left over for schools and lots of other social spending.

The Reagan *Revolution* has been discredited; didn't Gordon O. get the memo?

@ markinjapan Hey liberty, what do you think we're doing, only it isn't Germany and and Japan, it's Afpaqistan, Iran and was Iraq.

Hey, Markinjapan -- they aren't trade competitors. :-)

YES!

@Abrawang "The U.S. is undertaxed compared to almost every Western style democracy. As a percent of GDP, the U.S. tax 'burden" is about 28%. All the main EU countries plus Canada and Australia range from 33-50%, with most being above 40%. "

There'd be rioting in the streets if you tried doubling middle-class taxes. It's amazing that we're so low when we tax business and investment at twice the rate as anyone else.

Canada's corporate income tax is 18% on its way down to 15%. We're at 35%. Canadians don't pay taxes on dividends, which would be double taxation.

Thing is, America no longer fights wars for America. The Japanese and Chinese were major financers of our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Why? They profit from the security. In return, oil prices are stabilized and oil shipments to east asia secure, ensuring their continued manufacturing, which in turn, is exported to America.

Japan no longer needs imperialism or a "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere." We are doing it for them, and for the Chinese.

This is the global empire (New World Order). All the elites work together and each country focuses on what they do best and can contribute for the greater aristocratic good. Blue-blooded Altruism.

Its not really about American Empire. The American Empire evolved into a global Empire that may not even be in America's best interests anymore. But it is still in the interests of our current elite. And to maintain this empire they need to rob the American people and use the surplus capital to help US business abroad (as a payoff for them supporting empire and to help them get access to foreign markets)

And Liberty man is right. The middle classes and working classes pay WAY TOO MUCH IN TAXES. Not just income taxes, but payroll and social security taxes, too (they are secret regressive taxes that aren't actually earmarked for social security).

This is what caused the French Revolution. A tax burden that falls on the commoners while the nobles pay hardly any taxes and drink champagne and have orgies at versailles

@ OEsheepdog "I don't advocate returning to draconian rates, just what they were paying in 1999. The rates in 1999 were not draconian. Your testimony, is incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial."

You really know nothing at all about taxes, do you? 85% of the Bush tax cut went to the middle class. So you're "demanding" a major tax increase on .... yourself. Your testimony, is incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial. :-)

Liberty - I haven't made a detailed study on the components of the overall tax rates. But I'm sure that consumption taxes (sales tax, VAT, gas tax etc.) are considerably higher in all the other countries. And I'm pretty sure that individual income taxes rates are higher as well. Canada lowering their corporate tax rate from 18% to 15% won't appreciably close the gap with the U.S.

I would love to hear someone demand that the rich learn to live within their means.

I would love to hear someone demand that the rich learn to live within their means.

Sheepie - Thank you!

Liberty Issues - Give it a rest, please.

Oh really, idiot - there aren't oil and natural gas pipelines that we don't want the Russians access to.

Put your comic books and cartoons away - shoot your television , so you're not shized out from beck, o'reality?, hannibully, and the king of them al el rushbo; and try some reality.

reality is not the stupid reality TV you, obviously watch, moron.

and NANA, gorgon got the memo - he's just too busy checking the grammar, and when he's done the moron won't understand it, anyway.

@"Liberty"
Re: Bush Debt Increases (aka: tax cuts)

**The top 1 percent took 29.5 percent of the benefits, and the top 5 percent took 44.2 percent.

In 2009, the top 1 percent earned 16 percent of cash income and the top 5 percent earned 29.5 percent of cash income.**

(As you can see, but will dismiss anyway, the top % got cuts out of proportion with income.)

**The top 20 percent (top 1 and 5% inclusive) took roughly two-thirds of the benefits from the tax cuts, according to the center's calculations.**

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/14/jim-mcdermott/jim-mcdermott-says-3-percent-got-majority-benefit-/

Your math is way off, or you're counting heads instead of cost. Maybe you can tell us how you get 85% after near 66% of the cost went to the top 20%. I guess there's some weasel wiggle room on the meaning of "middle class," not defined by median income.

Lemme guess...you're using anaerobic Libertarian math...

OES-
It seems to me that when you say, "we're broke means the rich refuse to pay more taxes," you are scapegoating the rich.

My observation is that, in general, it is not the wealthy upper middle class that is voting to cut funds to education. You don't hear Sarah Palin talking about the value of a good education.

Even if we taxed all the rich people the most we could, our Government squanders the money it takes and never lives within a budget. Taxing us all into poverty and still having a trillions dollar national debt won't solve the problem I don't think.

@abrawang " Liberty - I haven't made a detailed study on the components of the overall tax rates."

I do that for a living, which is why I know you were "demanding" a doubling of middle class taxes in America.

@abrawang : But I'm sure that consumption taxes (sales tax, VAT, gas tax etc.) are considerably higher in all the other countries."

Bingo. All paid by the middle class. It doesn't matter where you get the taxes from, when you stated that our taxes could (or should) be as high a percent of GDP as other countries, you seem totally unaware that the entire difference is caused by US subsidies and loopholes targeted to the middle class.

Like I said, your proposal to double middle class taxes in this country would have our middle class rioting in the streets.

@abrawang " Canada lowering their corporate tax rate from 18% to 15% won't appreciably close the gap with the U.S."

Sorry, if I was unclear. I was showing that half of our own taxes on business and investment are part of the middle-class gravy train of entitlements.

When liberals keep screeching about loopholes for corporations and the rich, somebody needs to call them out on the rather blatant lies. In context of this thread, it's the public sector trade unions always calling on greater taxes on the rich instead of cutting back on the lavish pay and benefits of public sector workers.

In Economics 101, we learn that taxing the rich is a direct tax on creating private sector jobs ... only since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution now.

With the middle class in debt up to our ... ears ... in debt, where do you think all the capital comes from to create jobs and finance middle-class mortgages, car loans and credit card debt -- Mars?

1 - 1 =0. We learned that in first grade.

What's REALLY whacko is that employee pension funds own most of the stock market, which means the loonier left wants workers to loot ... themselves.







Abrawang

February 22, 2011 11:26 PM
Liberty - I haven't made a detailed study on the components of the overall tax rates. But I'm sure that consumption taxes (sales tax, VAT, gas tax etc.) are considerably higher in all the other countries. And I'm pretty sure that individual income taxes rates are higher as well. Canada lowering their corporate tax rate from 18% to 15% won't appreciably close the gap with the U.S.




Abrawang

February 22, 2011 11:26 PM

@abrawang " Liberty - I haven't made a detailed study on the components of the overall tax rates."

I do that for a living, which is why I know you were "demanding" a doubling of middle class taxes in America.

@abrawang : But I'm sure that consumption taxes (sales tax, VAT, gas tax etc.) are considerably higher in all the other countries."

Bingo. All paid by the middle class. It doesn't matter where you get the taxes from, when you stated that our taxes could (or should) be as high a percent of GDP as other countries, you seem totally unaware that the entire difference is caused by US subsidies and loopholes targeted to the middle class.

Like I said, your proposal to double middle class taxes in this country would have our middle class rioting in the streets.

@abrawang " Canada lowering their corporate tax rate from 18% to 15% won't appreciably close the gap with the U.S."

Sorry, if I was unclear. I was showing that half of our own taxes on business and investment are part of the middle-class gravy train of entitlements.

When liberals keep screeching about loopholes for corporations and the rich, somebody needs to call them out on the rather blatant lies. In context of this thread, it's the public sector trade unions always calling on greater taxes on the rich instead of cutting back on the lavish pay and benefits of public sector workers.

In Economics 101, we learn that taxing the rich is a direct tax on creating private sector jobs ... only since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution now.

With the middle class in debt up to our ... ears ... in debt, where do you think all the capital comes from to create jobs and finance middle-class mortgages, car loans and credit card debt -- Mars?

1 - 1 =0. We learned that in first grade.

What's REALLY whacko is that employee pension funds own most of the stock market, which means the loonier left wants workers to loot ... themselves.







Abrawang

February 22, 2011 11:26 PM
Liberty - I haven't made a detailed study on the components of the overall tax rates. But I'm sure that consumption taxes (sales tax, VAT, gas tax etc.) are considerably higher in all the other countries. And I'm pretty sure that individual income taxes rates are higher as well. Canada lowering their corporate tax rate from 18% to 15% won't appreciably close the gap with the U.S.




Abrawang

February 22, 2011 11:26 PM

Sorry, I haven't figured out why some of my posts appear twice.

read post and comments... nothing to add.
~R

@Liberty, because you fucking click them twice.

@Liberty Issues (with a link to personal income taxes): "Also see that the middle class pays only 21% of the personal income tax, but got 85% of the Bush tax cut. Tax cuts for the rich! Or nonsense for the liberal sheeple who are no better than the Birthers on the right."


@ Paul J. O'Rourke (misrepresenting his own source) "The top 1 percent took 29.5 percent of the benefits, and the top 5 percent took 44.2 percent. In 2009, the top 1 percent earned 16 percent of cash income and the top 5 percent earned 29.5 percent of cash income (As you can see, but will dismiss anyway, the top % got cuts out of proportion with income.)"

The data you cite is proven false .... AT YOUR OWN LINK!

"Indeed, if McDermott had simply refrained from citing the 3 percent figure, he would have been correct in saying that most of the Bush tax cuts went to "people ... at the very top" -- as long as you define the very top as the top 20 percent of earners. The top 20 percent took roughly two-thirds of the benefits from the tax cuts, according to the center's calculations."

The top 20% includes those filthy plutocrats who earn $73,000 a year. Repeat: just as whacko as the Birthers. You can confirm the top 20% at the same IRS link, just keep adding from the bottom until you get 27.7 million returns.

I quote IRS data. O'Rourke cites Jim McDermott, hardly an unbiased sources, PLUS falsely represents his own link. Then O'Rourke adds

@ Paul J. O'Rourke " Lemme guess...you're using anaerobic Libertarian math..."

Just trying to be helpful: It's never wise to insult somebody while you're making a total fool of yourself in public, as you just did.

A few more nonpartisan links.

Here's FactCheck.org sproving that Howard Dean lied by saying the middle class got nothing from the Bush tax cuts -- a lie repeated by many liberal fanatics, that the tax cuts went to the rich only.

http://www.factcheck.org/dean_wrong_on_bush_tax_cut.html


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40262323/ns/politics-capitol_hill/

"Extending just the lower rates for the lower and middle class will cost about $2.9 trillion over 10 years; also renewing the rates for those in the upper income group costs about $700 billion over a decade, according to the Treasury Department."

Elementary math: 2.9/3.6 = 81% to the middle class.

But the sheeple believe otherwise, no different from insisting Obama was born in Kenya.

(I'm still laughing that $73,000 per year means 'the very top')

@ bikepsychobabble "Liberty Issues - Give it a rest, please."

In an earlier era, your spiritual ancestrors were known as book burners.

@tr ig "Liberty, because you fucking click them twice."

Hmmm, I've been designing websites since 1995, and have had a home computer since 1976. And I'm not stupid enough to make assumptions about things I know nothing about.

But I'll pat you on the back for you expressing your feelings.

Mr. Issue, it's not rocket science; if you click twice your comment posts twice. Like so...

Mr. Issue, it's not rocket science; if you click twice your comment posts twice. Like so...

But I pat you on the back for your touching belief that you're immune from stupidity.

@Trey Montana "Mr. Issue, it's not rocket science; if you click twice your comment posts twice. Like so..."

Yeah, I know, Skippy. Why did you ass-ume I didn't know that? Why do you ass-ume I clicked twice ... after I mentioned havin a home computer since probably before you were born?

And I've found the problem. I have four different ports uploading data from my hard drive to a new online backup, which was causing problems in the background. Fortunately, I kept looking instead of making ignorant assumptions.

But I am SO proud of you for sharing your feelings.

@Trey Montana " But I pat you on the back for your touching belief that you're immune from stupidity."

I never said that, Skippy. Do you have a reading problem too? Here's what I said:

"And I'm not stupid enough to make assumptions about things I know nothing about."

Try it some time. Then you won't look so damn-fool silly, like misquoting my comment when everyone can still see the truth.

So far, I've been insulted three times because I .... apologized.

What would you do if I complimented you, shoot me to death?

Liberty,
As I suspected, you aren't very bright, at least in that How To Argue a Point way.
McDermott was wrong, but I did not cite him. I cited the facts that rebutted his assertion.
I did not say the middle class did not get a tax cut, I claimed your assertion they got 85% of it was wrong. Why? Because it was wrong.

I don't blame you for wanting to argue against your distortion of what I wrote instead of...what I wrote. Hell, you're a lot easier to argue against, especially when you take on yourself. Who couldn't defeat that hack?

As a general rule, I have found that those who put up a "liberty" pretense don't know anything about liberty, and couldn't find a valid liberty theory if it was hanging from their ass, even if they used both hands.
I'm sure you're not the exception to that rule.

However, it is good to see that some Libertarian types survive the adult thinking deconstruction of their dogma, and continue to spout that pimple-faced dreck into their waning years.

Mr. Issue, if there are reading comprehension issues they're on your side. I wasn't misquoting you; I was mocking you. Please learn to tell the difference, Biff.

He did it again

He did it again

As my son would say DERPPP!

@Trey Montana Mr. Issue, if there are reading comprehension issues they're on your side. I wasn't misquoting you; I was mocking you. Please learn to tell the difference, Biff.

rofl -- same as I mocked you, Skippy.

------------------------

"And I'm not stupid enough to make assumptions about things I know nothing about."

Try it some time. Then you won't look so damn-fool silly, like misquoting my comment when everyone can still see the truth.

So far, I've been insulted three times because I .... apologized.

What would you do if I complimented you, shoot me to death?

------------

Repeat: Never ridicule somebody when you're making a damn fool of yourself in public.

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/about_hal/taxhaven.html

"For decades, the U.S. tax code has encouraged companies like Halliburton to transfer the location of its subsidiaries from the United States to foreign countries. This is one reason why only thirty-six of Halliburton's 143 subsidiaries are incorporated in the United States and 107 subsidiaries (or 75 percent) are incorporated in 30 different countries."

There are two methods by which Halliburton lowers its tax liability on foreign income: (1) By establishing a "controlled foreign corporation" and (2) By establishing a subsidiary inside a low tax, or no tax, country known as a "tax haven."
"Controlled foreign corporations and tax havens are the result of decades of corporate lobbying in Washington, DC. It has benefited corporate America tremendously. The tax savings to Halliburton, and the corresponding tax loss to individual American taxpayers, are enormous. Halliburton paid only $15 million of their $80 million in total taxes (or 19 percent) to the U.S. government in 2002. The remaining 81 percent of the company's taxes went to foreign governments. Although Halliburton is an "American" corporation on paper, it is actually a foreign corporation that has no allegiance to the United States."

The laws that allow American corporations to avoid paying taxes, were written by paid whores of American corporations (OUR ERECTED REPRESENTATIVES).

Want a link war?

More Information

David Cay Johnston: How the rich rigged the tax system against the rest of us
CitizenWorks.org: Halliburton, Dick Cheney, and wartime spoils
Senators Dorgan and Levin press release on GAO study on tax havens
GAO study on government contractors with tax havens
Alternet: How Big Business Evades Taxes
Mercury News: Congress weighs tax `holiday' for firms' foreign cash
Brookings Institution Testimony
IRS explanation of controlled foreign corporations
AEI: Taxing International Business Income
Search engine on tax havens ...

Let that be a lesson to you, Trey. If anyone knows from making a damn fool of himself in public it's Liberty Issues. Shoot, everyone knows that what causes multiple comments is having four different ports uploading data from your hard drive to a new online backup which is causing problems in the background. Quod erant demonstrandum!

Let that be a lesson to you, Trey. If anyone knows from making a damn fool of himself in public it's Liberty Issues. Shoot, everyone knows that what causes multiple comments is having four different ports uploading data from your hard drive to a new online backup which is causing problems in the background. Quod erant demonstrandum!

Four portals... he's like a ninja

I had a computer on my desk in 1976 too, of sorts. They called it a ten key calculator. Had a real paper ribbon and everything. Man, I could blaze with that thing! It was before Al Gore's invention, the twentysix key calculator!

@Paul J. O'Rourke "I claimed your assertion they got 85% of it was wrong. Why? Because it was wrong."

Denial is not an argument. Here's your wacko claim again:

"Maybe you can tell us how you get 85% after near 66% of the cost went to the top 20%"

One more time. The top 20% is bullshit for the gullible, because it includes the rich plutocrats who earn $73,000. I gave you a link to that data. And even told you how to save time confirming that I am correct and you are defendng the liberal crap that the "very top" includes people earning $73,000.

Did you check -- or just demand to see an original copy of my birth certificate? Rhetorical question, we all know the answer.

I'm not sure why I need to repeat this for you, but:

----------------------------------------

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40262323/ns/politics-capitol_hill/

"Extending just the lower rates for the lower and middle class will cost about $2.9 trillion over 10 years; also renewing the rates for those in the upper income group costs about $700 billion over a decade, according to the Treasury Department."

Elementary math: 2.9/3.6 = 81% to the middle class.

------------------------------

@Paul J. O'Rourke " However, it is good to see that some Libertarian types survive the adult thinking deconstruction of their dogma, and continue to spout that pimple-faced dreck into their waning years."

haha, I'm glad to see you dealing with your rage. Let's cut through all your insults, dishonesty and diversions. Back to the topic:

1) I said the middle-class pays only 21% of the personal income tax, and provided a link to IRS raw data.

2) I said the middle class, despite paying only 21% of the personal income tax got 85% of the bush tax cuts, and provided a link proving 81%.

Meanwhile, your "argument" (see above) is that 66% of the Bush tax cut went to people earning at or above $73,000. Thus, your entire "point" requires us to believe that $73,000 per year is too wealthy to be middle-class.

Repeat: behind all your screeching, insults and name-calling, you say that $73,000 per year is the super-rich (or at least not the middle class)

Repeat: Best not to insult anyone when you're making a total ass of yourself in public. And every time you repeat your ignorance, I get to repeat the truth, so your tactics aren't very bright either.

My point on the Bush Tax Cuts, since nobody asked, is that both parties enagage in heavy duty wealth redistribution. It has nothing to do with political ideology. It's about power -- buying votes.

Democrats do it by increasing taxes on the rich, to pay for middle-class tax cuts. Then Republicans repeal that tax increase (on the rich) to pay for .... middle-class tax cuts. Bush did it. And Dole ran against Clinton, claiming to repeal Clinton's tax increase (on the rich, unstated) to pay for .... guess what?

Which is also why the puppet-masters on the left scream lies about the Bush tax cuts -- to justify one more tax increase on the rich. Republicans have a separate set of lies -- that tax cuts increase revenues and that Reagan was a supply-sider. (It's also a lie that Kennedy's tax cuts were demand-side)

The obedient sheeple, both left and right, mindlessly obey their puppetmasters. And the puppetmasters keep us divided, which is the source of their power -- to protect us from the evil and treacherous conspiracies on the other side of the aisle.

The Christian Right and the Economic Left -- two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

@tr ig "The laws that allow American corporations to avoid paying taxes, were written by paid whores of American corporations (OUR ERECTED REPRESENTATIVES)."

(rofl) pity the fool.

Yeah, the bastards. There are four ways to tax business and invetsments, and we are the world's highest in all four.

1) World's highest income tax rates.
2) World's longest writeoffs of jobs-creating new factory equipment.
3) Only country that taxes corporate dividends twice.
4) Only country that refuses to index capital gains for inflation.

The conniving bastards have forced us to tax them twice as much as any other industrial democracy -- as a ruse to disguise their conspiracy for world domination.

@tr ig "Want a link war?"

I already feel like I'm kicking a cripple.

@nanatehay " Shoot, everyone knows that what causes multiple comments is having four different ports uploading data from your hard drive to a new online backup which is causing problems in the background."

Near as I can tell, the load on my bandwidth causes a major delay in what happens which I click a link in the foreground. It stopped when I stopped the uploads, on the advice of my tech support manager. The one I employ as a website host.

I'm not stupid enough to make assumptions about things I don't understand. But, I'll defend your right to be as totally wacky as you choose.

I've been fighting McCarthyism and bigotry for over 50 year. Why stop now?

http://www.businesspundit.com/12-countries-with-the-highest-lowest-tax-rates/


The Highest Tax Rates
Belgium



As will be seen throughout this article, most of the world’s highest tax rates can be found in western European nations. Belgium tops the list, with a marginal tax rate that goes as high as 54%. Despite such a high tax rate, Belgium ranks relatively highly on various economic measures. NationMaster.com, for instance, reports that Belgium’s $392 billion GDP ranks 18th out of 203 countries, and exports over $322 billion worth of goods and services yearly. However, other statistics show Belgium’s high tax rate coming back to haunt it. The International Monetary fund ranks Belgium 18th on its list of Gross Domestic Product based on purchasing power parity, at $36,416. It is also noted that Belgium was “likely to have negative growth, growing unemployment, and a 3% budget deficit.” Canada’s Trade Commissioner Service similarly reported “a slowdown of the activity in all sectors” during the last two quarters of 2008. In sum, it seems that Belgium’s high tax rates stifle economic vitality to some extent, despite the social safety net it provides.

Finland



With a marginal tax rate of 46.6 on average workers, Finland has the fourth highest such rate in the world. However, unlike many similarly taxed countries, Finland has managed to have a stronger overall economy despite its taxation. Unemployment currently sits at 6.8% – surprisingly low given the current economic crisis and double-digit unemployment in the United States. Additionally, Finland’s $36,320 GDP per capita ranks 20th on the International Monetary Fund’s list. The CIA Factbook likewise states that Finland has “a highly industrialized, largely free-market economy with per capita output roughly that of the UK, France, Germany, and Italy.” It is also worth noting that Finland has been one of the best performing economies in the entire European Union in recent years, owing in no small part to the country’s having avoided the worst of the banking crisis.
Germany



Clocking in just beneath Finland is Germany, with a 45% marginal tax rate on average income workers. Despite having the largest national economy in Europe (and the fourth largest in the world measured by nominal GDP), Germany has effectively traded off having a comprehensive social safety net against more robust economic growth. Its GDP measured by PPP is $35,539 according to the International Monetary Fund – 21st on the list, behind Belgium. As recently as 2007, TheNewEditor.com reported that Germans were emigrating at their highest rate since the 1940′s, resulting in a “brain drain” on the nation’s brightest and most motivated people. As a result of “high taxes and bureaucracy, thousands of Germans have upped sticks for Austria and Switzerland, or emigrated to the United States” — 155,290 during the year in question, which rivals “levels last experienced in the 1940s during the chaotic aftermath of the Second World War.” Furthermore, emigrants are generally said to be highly motivated and educated, while those immigrating to Germany are increasingly poorer and less educated — perhaps more inclined to consume Germany’s generous social benefits.

Denmark


Denmark clocks in as having the fourth highest tax rate in the world at 44.4%. On the surface, high taxes have not had the chilling effect on Denmark that they appear to be having on other highly taxed nations. An ABC News story, for instance, reports that “Danes Rank Themselves as Happy and Content” – indeed, the happiest nation on Earth – despite the tax burden they bear. Furthermore, the high taxes mean that “a banker can end up taking home as much money as an artist” so that “people don’t chose careers based on income or status.” However, outsiders are skeptical of whether high taxes impose a bigger burden than is acknowledged. The New York Times (hardly an enemy of high taxation) reported in 2007 – the same year of ABC’s story – that Denmark’s tax structure was worsening a labor shortage. As in Germany, the Times found that “the Danish labor force had shrunk by about 19,000 people through the end of 2005″ (significant in a country of less than 6 million) because “Danes and others had moved elsewhere.” To its credit, Denmark does boast the 16th highest GDP per capita at $37,304 – impressive for a small and highly taxed nation.

Italy

As of 2006, the highest tax rate in Italy has been roughly 43%. Unfortunately, Italy also has the lowest GDP per capita of any country covered so far — $30,631, good for 27th on the International Monetary Fund’s list. Various economic indicators portray Italy negatively, not the least of which is debt as a percentage of GDP being higher than 100%, according to EconomicsHelp.org. Italy also appears to have a sluggish male work population. According to Mint.com’s article on bizarre tax breaks around the world, Italy once toyed with the idea of offering males 30 and over a tax incentive to leave their mother’s homes and start their own lives. The problem, Mint writes, is ” is apparently so bad that a third of all men over 30 live at home” in Italy. Naturally, this segment of the population is not participating in economic growth by having their own homes or apartments, utility bills, and the like. The case could be made that overly generous government benefits have softened the population’s will to work.


France



Finally, no discussion of highly taxed nations would be complete without including France. With a top marginal tax rate on average workers of about 40% (and a top tax on high-income workers of nearly 50%), France is long-known for sacrificing economic growth to social benefits handed out by government. As Charles Wheelan writes in his book Naked Economics, “France is a good place to be a struggling artist, and a bad place to be an Internet entrepreneur.” Despite being the fifth largest economy in the world, France’s GDP per capita stands at just $34,205 – only 23rd on the IMF’s ranking. A study done several years ago by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development found that “France’s tax burden as a percentage of gross domestic product last year rose to 43.7%, from 43.4% a year earlier”, according to ThisFrenchLife. A 2009 Wall Street Journal piece likewise finds France’s popular universal healthcare system “has been in the red since 1989″, with an expected 2010 shortfall of €15 billion.

ooops OES, you'll have to delete my last comment to kill the curse of the BOLD. Not that it will make much difference here anyway.

Liberty Issues says:

"Near as I can tell, the load on my bandwidth causes a major delay in what happens which I click a link in the foreground. It stopped when I stopped the uploads, on the advice of my tech support manager. The one I employ as a website host.

I'm not stupid enough to make assumptions about things I don't understand."

Nah, but you're definitely stupid enough to attribute something which occurs dozens of times in OS every day to the particular set of conditions on your PC rather than the simple fact that you inadvertently clicked your mouse more than one time. Go on though and bray some more what a tech whiz (and a bigotry fighter!) you are. If I was as impressed with you as you obviously are I'd be very impressed indeed.

We all know he clicked it twice nanatehay. Rolling on floor laughing out loud, or as they say on facebook...roflol.

I'm still wondering though, issues; are you ok with mega-billion $ corporations setting up a PO box in a foreign country to avoid US income taxes? To me it seems like pure thievery, thievery from US.

Hmmmmm.......

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/study-tallies-corporations-not-paying-income-tax/


Two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress.

"The study, which is likely to add to a growing debate among politicians and policy experts over the contribution of businesses to Treasury coffers, did not identify the corporations or analyze why they had paid no taxes. It also did not say whether they had been operating properly within the tax code or illegally evading it.

That's not fair, Trig. If it wasn't for union perfidy corporations would pay what the law requires; they want to do the right thing but how can they with organized labor trying to destroy our economy? It's time for the deadbeat working and middle classes to pull some of their own weight!

I'd say Liberty Issues has issues.

Also, the Warren Commission discounted his single click theory and unanimously concluded he did in fact click twice.

I'm anti-union busting. Anti-further lifestyle deterioration. We're already fighting for scraps out here!
United States corporations are loopholed out of paying THE HIGHEST RATES ON THE PLANET.
1999 rates.. returned, and loopholes closed. Face it rich people, it's fair.

That's imposserous! Lib Iss has preternatural reflexes from his years spent mentoring Bruce Lee (it was his hobby after McCarthy was discredited); he's incapable of human error. It was a beam of neutrons from AFL-CIO headquarters which caused the glitch, but he's since installed a tinfoil fire wall between his PC and all sources of leftist sabotage.

imposserous?

I feel like a cripple that's been kicked!

imposserous?

I feel like a cripple that's been kicked!

Just count yourself lucky he let you off so easy. The man is gifted with abilities beyond our mortal ken.

ooops

ooops

Liberty Issues: "Sorry, I haven't figured out why some of my posts appear twice."

You're an idiot, that's why - if you used your fingers and toes, you'd still come up with 2 + 2 = 3

Like I said, just as stoopid as Birthers.

"Two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress.

"The study, which is likely to add to a growing debate among politicians and policy experts over the contribution of businesses to Treasury coffers, did not identify the corporations or analyze why they had paid no taxes. It also did not say whether they had been operating properly within the tax code or illegally evading it."

hahaha -- more egg on your face.

Now I'll tell you why they paid no taxes, Sparky.

There is a massive loophole in corporate taxes called SubChapter S Corporations. They enjoy the limited liability of a corporation, but are 100% exampt from the corporate income tax.

This is not a small number of corporations. It's every small-business corporation in America -- with under 101 shareholders -- that wants to protect their personal assets from legal liability.

Repeat: Every small business corporation in America is 100% exempt from the corporate income tax. They are called SubChapter S Corporations.

This from Wikipedia. Note the "double-taxation" of other corporate profits.

"An S corporation, for United States federal income tax purposes, is a corporation that makes a valid election to be taxed under Subchapter S of Chapter 1 of the Internal Revenue Code.

"In general, S corporations do not pay any federal income taxes. Instead, the corporation's income or losses are divided among and passed through to its shareholders. The shareholders must then report the income or loss on their own individual income tax returns. This concept is called single taxation; if the corporation is taxed as a C corporation, it will face double taxation, meaning both the corporation's profits, and the shareholders' dividends, will be taxed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_corporation

For any other thinking impaired, the fiscal effect is to tax all corporate profits like dividends would be taxed, except the "dividends" may remain in the corporation, and there are ZERO corporate income taxes.

If you actually dare to see the truth THIS time, you'll see the primary definition for tax exempt status is no more than 100 shareholders. No limit on untaxed profits, Sparky.

Now let's check the IRS, okay? Top of the page, first paragraph:

"Shareholders of S corporations report the flow-through of income and losses on their personal tax returns and are assessed tax at their individual income tax rates. This allows S corporations to avoid double taxation on the corporate income."

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98263,00.html

GASP! "Double-taxation of corporate income" Per the IRS!!!!!

No corporate ibcome tax -- also per the IRS.

One more time:

1) Never insult somebody while making a total ass of yourself in public.

2) No different than a hopelessly gullible Birther.

P.S. This is why tax rates on the "rich" are often taxes on small-business profits. It's because S Corporations report corporate profits as personal income, Sparky.

Still want to have a link war? (rofl)

No, you cannot see my original birth certificate.

(Mike exists stage left, laughing)

@ tr ig United States corporations are loopholed out of paying THE HIGHEST RATES ON THE PLANET.

hahaha -- your own source says: "The study ... did not identify the corporations or analyze why they had paid no taxes. It also did not say whether they had been operating properly within the tax code or illegally evading it."

Or if they even had taxable orifits. (lol)

For the thinking impaired: our soak-the-rich tax code favors small business which pays lower wages and offers fewer benefits ... while witless liberals screech about corporate tax loopholes, as instructed by their puppet-masters, and wonder why small business creates most of the jobs. DUH

(flush)

liberty, definitely has issues - try cognitive therapy.

I agree with you Sheepy. I pay taxes both as an individual and as a small business owner. Last year, though the business had a bad year, I had to pay more in personal tax even though my business partner and I had not take distributions. I am not complaining. I left the money in the company because taking it as a distribution was like cribbing on the cushion it seemed we might need if things continued to worsen in the economy.

When I pay my taxes I feel blessed by a level of prosperity that I was not born into as a baby. To me, paying my taxes means that some kid that needs help the way that I did as a child is going to get it because I paid my taxes: because I could pay my taxes. What goes around comes around. I feel proud of doing well enough to pay my taxes without complaint. It feels like an accomplishment to me.

On the other hand, I wonder about all those stingy asshats and motherf*ckers who don't seem to care if things go well for anyone they can't reach out and personally touch.

Business got a whole lot better this year and I probably made more money last year than I have in any of the past ten years. Next week I take the books to the accountant. He'll tell me. There have been some lean years. I paid my taxes. I gave what I could charitably too. Our family always does. The people who really help other people usually have some personal sense of what it would mean to fall on hard times.

There is no cure for greed. Greed and selfishness are things that have to be healed from the inside out of the greedy bastids that live without concern for the well-being of their fellow citizens. They may have money, but I think their hearts and/or souls are seriously impoverished. Pray for them bastids!

OE: I agree with you on most of your post. The problem that is inherent in this issue comes from several directions. First, most people who perceive the "rich" are generally not receiving a lot of income themselves, so they're automatically going to assume that people who make several thousand dollars more a year than they do are considered rich. And as most people don't make a lot of money, they're going to consider a lot of people as richer than they are. I find it somewhat hilarious that the pundits who argue about these issues are usually people making upwards of $250,000 a year, so that's why that number became a ballpark of "rich enough" to the people reporting these issues. Keeping in mind that the people getting the most attention are pundits who are well received and well known, the chances are pretty good that the "reporters" are part of that rich base that keeps trying to push the number higher. In reality, the majority of people in this country are looking at $30-40,000 as a normal wage, even though the people reporting these stories tend to be those making the $90-120,000 range.

As for the scapegoating, I really wish it would just stop. From all sides. People who make a lot of money aren't the ones causing the problem. It's a select group of people who actually have access to government channels who seem to be making the most problems. Granted, they're generally extremely wealthy, but just because they're insanely wealthy doesn't mean they represent the people who are wealthy. They just happen to be a tiny part of that demographic. That's why so many rich people can say they feel taxes should be higher, yet everyone else keeps throwing mud at them.

At the same time, those responsible people are also responsible for creating all of the mud that gets thrown at the other scapegoated individuals, and I'm referring to unions, teachers and working stiffs who keep coming under attack by right-wing ideologues who don't represent the majority of the upper class. They represent that core group of well-connected political elites who have control of government, the ones I was talking about before who keep giving the rich a bad name.

If we could somehow stop the mud throwing, which there seems to be a lot in this thread, going back and forth between a few people on both sides, then we might actually be able to start pushing for solutions. But we won't do that, because these charged "insights" keep throwing more mud so that people stop being rational, and then we end up with insults instead of arguments, which we immediately believe the other side to be guilty of, even though we do it on both sides consistently.

@trig "http://www.businesspundit.com/12-countries-with-the-highest-lowest-tax-rates/"

Uhhh, what on EARTH is your point????