Oryoki's House

Queen Bee of a Small Hive

Oryoki Bowl

Oryoki Bowl
Birthday
February 03
Bio
Quaker buddhist, kinda quirky, loves cooking and knitting and movies. Dr Who fan, Scandinavian-aquarian and cat lover. Would love to be paid to travel around the world and write about local healing cultures. While eating and drinking and dancing. One day I will have a health cruise in the fjords.

JANUARY 23, 2012 1:36PM

50/50 vs Reality

Rate: 24 Flag

Divorce is in the air.  It seems like this past year, the fastest way to lose weight is shedding your signficant other.  While I am not getting divorced myself (we aren't married), I find myself on the listening end of other people's divorce stories.  Plus, as family practice just as often includes counseling as blood pressure checks, I keep hearing the familiar words from so many ... "I am thinking about divorcing my husband"....

Saturday morning's announcement of Heidi and Seal bummed us out.  I was working, and the patient was actually a friend of the pair-  she was totally shocked to hear it.   They looked so perfect together, and maybe in many ways, they were.  Mostly, though, these divorce announcements I am hearing are coming from women in much more seasoned marriages- 15, 20, 30 years.  

One of the things I have noticed, as I listen to them tell of why they are considering letting it all go, is that after so many years of togetherness, which one would assume includes growth and change, is the battle for equity.  Once the kids are grown up and out, and these women have almost all been working full or part time while raising the family, the shift of household responsibility has stayed firmly on the wife and mother.  Finally, after all these years, a chance for freedom (probably for both parties), but only one of them is expected to still do the housework.  

This reminds me of the Life Lessons from Xena, Warrior Princess, a book of wit and wisdom my sister bought me many years ago.  If I remember mostly correctly, she said "Men don't understand the irony of fighting for freedom, so that they may spend the rest of their lives being waited on hand and foot".  Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. 

Earlier on in life, I was told by an old crone that there is no such thing as 50/50 in marriage.  It is always all over the place, and just as often 90/10.  You can't hold out for 50/50 because you will not be able to achieve it.  Of course, times have changed some, and as women yearn for more equality in the world, the burdens of raising a family and running a household are changing.  Or, perhaps, they are just falling through the floor.  I know there are men who do their half of the housework, the cooking, the shopping, the childcare, more or less, but I also know that those couples fight a lot about whose turn it is, and who did what last.  Maybe that is the only way to keep people honest, but it also means that there is a lot of fighting and scorekeeping.  As we don't have kids, this doesn't present the problem it would for others, but I also know my reluctance to marry anyone and have children has had so much to do with knowing I would not be getting the help I would want or need.  Equal is all fine and dandy as long as both people don't have to do anything.

Of course, the vow of marriage makes it harder to leave.  It doesn't work to storm out the door when you have property and children to manage.  Dating relationships can be a little easier that way, since the other can much more easily leave if you are not helpful and agreeable.  Men want someone more agreeable, women want someone more helpful.  The man says I would be nicer to you if you would do these things for me, the woman says, I would be more inclined to do things for you if you were kinder to me.  And on and on.  Except, now, women seem more inclined to throw the marriage out instead of working it out.  Faced with economic and social freedoms that has never previously existed (and perhaps not when they first married), they can find another way to live and support themselves.  Without all that BS of having to be a maid and a cook and girlfriend and endless mother.  

Still, we all need to eat and we all need to have a reasonable amount of tidiness in our lives.  Mutual care is the foundation of society and civilization.  While Downton Abbey might fascinate us, most of us would imagine we are in the upstairs half of the house rather than the downstairs half.  The singletons out there that are career bachelors and bachelorettes probably have a much harder time accepting the variations of cleaning, helping, cooking than they realize.  There is usually one who likes things much cleaner than the other cares about (not always the woman, btw).  And not everyone equally capable of not burning down the food.  How do we change this imbalance?

A patient the other day mentioned that after all these years together with her husband, after raising their children and sending them off to school, and they enter the years when they rekindle in their empty nest and hopefully reconnect, he would rather live his own life than be more helpful and kind to her.  Now, I don't know them, and I don't know her that well, but she doesn't want to end her marriage.  She just doesn't want to live the rest of her life as a helpmeet housemate rather than a loving partner. If this is what marriage is going to look like anymore, it isn't worth it.  She is beautiful, successful in business,  but still in that age bracket where dating becomes a nightmare until you are too old to care anymore.  And so she is deciding whether the burden of being alone outweighs the burden of living with a constantly demanding and critical spouse.  Sadly, she is not my only patient this week who shared the same sentiments, and will not likely be the last.  Few if any of the women I know who are divorcing desire cohabitation and marriage again.  

It's clearer and clearer to me that the model of marriage is hardly viable for many any more.  Not impossible, but reality shows that fewer and fewer people are getting out of marriage what they expected- or what they promised.  I am sure this is translating poorly to dating in the divorced scene, as we write dream lists of everything we want (more sex, more affection, more kindness, more good food, more activities) and everything that is a deal breaker (thicker waistline, balding, slow to go in bed, bad economics, a slob).  We become entrenched in what we believe we deserve, and expect that level of care from strangers in whom we have never invested.  We further wrap around us all the slights from our parents and siblings, and decide that we will never again tolerate that behavior.  Ultimately, that means we don't want to love (or even like) anyone unless we get everything we want.  Sounds like a winning plan.  

Like always, I ask people what they want, and help them identify how to get that in life, or change their opinion of the situation if it no longer works.  Maybe she and her husband will stay married, and live their own lives along side each other (it works for some), maybe they will divorce.  Maybe when she asks him what he thinks of how things are he will surprise her with a list of his concerns rather than just a critique of what she is not doing for him.  And maybe when they finally talk about what they want out of marriage, he will tell her he too wishes they could be better partners than just dejected and lonely coparents of adult children, and angry adult children of selfish parents.   

I think the world is changing for the better with regard to women's equality and human rights.  For every study that publishes that men and women are the same, another publishes that they are the opposite.  (Wonder where the gender divide falls on who authors those).  Sexism definitely hurts everyone, even if it seems to benefit men a lot more right now.  With sadness, I saw a newsvideo of a young woman in Bangladesh whose husband chopped off her hand because she dared take a class without his permission.  In tears, she talked about how glad she was that she won't have to live with him anymore.  And that she hopes to continue at school and become a lawyer.  While he is in detention now, will he change his mind about the role of wife?  Of course, mutilation causing handicap is a serious offense, much more important than spousal abuse, and he should be in jail a long time.  

Personally, I wonder why it is so hard to wrap around our heads, the idea that women want to be treated like people.  With their own hopes, ambitions, goals, desires, that are not solely tied to being a wife and mother and homemaker.  Even if they were, that still does not denounce equality.  We know that men the world round are rallying for more freedom (not sure if they really want democracy), but they are asking for equality between certain men- not between all people, male and female.  I am glad to know that women the world round are starting to stand up and demand their own rights as well.  I don't think it is going to be 50/50 any time soon, but maybe we can push it from the 90/10.  

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'It's clearer and clearer to me that the model of marriage is hardly viable for many any more.' I agree with this statement completely. I have no idea what is done be about, except in my own life. I plan on actively avoiding marriage.

That said, I agree with your other points as well. I see many married women that not only carry the largest share of the burden concerning home and children, while maintaining a job, just like the husband does. And god help single mothers. I divorced in 2005 and I continue to be shocked at the frequency I see fathers desert their kids after divorce. They seem to divorce the marriage and everything that came with it. It never seems less incredible.

I've no words of wisdom, but I see the nasty truths you speak of concerning women on a regular basis.
Very thought provoking piece, O. I have been having my own thoughts on marriage for a while, not ready to be verbalized. But I think 50/50 is a state where couples breed and stay together until their offspring reach an independent age. It is not connected to marriage.
R♥
Desert Rat- I know that there are many men who don't want things to be this way, but mostly it really just involves stepping up and helping, which means knowing that things have to be done without having to be told what they are. Whether or not it is "men's" or "women's" work, the modern world has removed the burden of much of that for almost all of us. Anyone can run a dishwasher or washing machine, and most people go to a mechanic now, or buy their food at the store. - instead of farming it. Childcare will always remain hard to do, as everything else becomes easier but somehow less valuable.
I have always considered marriage a rotating 60-40. I never feel constrained or not free, I think after 25 years of marriage it has been about doing our own things, encouraging each other, supporting each other and valuing our children. We did not marry young either. Each of us was established in our own right, so that might have something to do with maintaining the sense and being independent people. We spend a lot of time together and when I say that we appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of the other, that is not bs. Do we make a decision to commit and work with each other, almost daily; yes, but sometimes it is so normal, it is almost an unconscious one.

Our relationship is a living thing. We do not take it for granted or fight for control. That is just how it has always been with us. I think it has something to do with lessons learned in previous relationships by both of us.
This is an interesting post. I cannot imagine a kinder, more helpful man than my husband. I don't see divorce in our future. What I do see is reinventing and relearning how to be a couple now that the nest is empty. Every phase of marriage requires some reinventing and relearning, I think. ~r
Fusun- the age of independence is a fantasy now, especially if you want your kids to go to college.

Sheila- I think you are lucky that you and your husband both agree on how to make it work, and keep it at the rotating 60/40. I know enough marriages that are like that, that I know it is not impossible. Every time I hear these things, I come home and kiss John and hold his hand, and quietly thank him for all that he is that I appreciate.
Joan- surely that is the key to a happy marriage- kind and helpful. I know some people bring this out better in each other, and you have found that in your husband.
One of your very strongest and enlightening. R.
JW- I think that this is just part of the social revolution we are experiencing ourselves, maybe these men and women are seeing the more egalitarian relationships of their children and wanting that for themselves. Certainly, I know I got lucky with a kind and helpful man (I know that my friends and family all agree on that with me). I'm sure your wife says the same about you.
I hope this gets an EP. So very much to think about here.
Heidi Klum and Seal who describe their marriage as a storybook marriage are divorcing after 7 years and 3 children.
They said they had a good run at it.
A good run?
It sounds like there was a lot of in house fighting over the 90-10 compromise.
I feel for your friend after all those years. They too probably had a storybook marriage.:(
HUGGGGGGGG
I agree with Joan and Sheila. I've been with my Sweetie since 1977 and married since the 80s. It takes daily work. And sometimes you just have to decide he is worth it, and bite your tongue. Is his happiness worth more to me than what I want at the moment? Believe me, he does the same for me WAY more often (I'm not really easy to live with.) You have to change as life changes or you will grow apart. And some of it is just dumb luck.
This is a thoughtful essay.

I do not see one "model of marriage". Every couple has to work things out for themselves, to some extent. I suspect this is more true in my circle, with today's broader freedoms with regard to women's equality and human rights. I think that is a good development. I have seen some of these changes evolve during my own life. Our marriage and our lives are partially guided by some choices the DW made over the years. Some of these choices were not available to my Mother in her time and place.

With greater freedom, IMHO comes the need to define our choices. In much of our western society, entering a marriage with rigid expectations about what married life can be the beginning of troubles.

A marriage needs a lot of integrity to endure. We age, we evolve, our situation evolves. I see one constant, however. Spouses must support eachother, regardless of any preconditioned expectations. BTW, Lending this type of support has given me the gift of experiences I would have never otherwise been able to have. I would not have it any other way.
People are living longer and take better care of themselves than they ever have historically. Forty and fifty something people are getting divorced because both party's find separation to be mutually beneficial. After 20 or 30 years with the same person if one is in reasonable health they may agree with G & R; November Rain:

'Cause nothin' lasts forever
And we both know hearts can change
And it's hard to hold a candle
In the cold November rain’
This is hard for me to relate to because I've seen so many marriages that worked (although some were second marriages). I don't know if things can ever be 50/50 or how a couple would even measure that unless they were keeping score but in my own marriage, there was never any fighting about who did more. I stayed at home with the kids for most of it while he worked so obviously I did more with and for them, but he was a hands-on father and also did a lot of things around the house beyond traditional "guy stuff" - occasionally because he didn't like the "haphazard" way I did things. Meaning sloppy. :) Maybe it's because he was used to doing chores around the house from a young age; both his parents worked full time almost from the time he was born. I wish he was around to be an example for my two sons; one day I asked my older son to fold laundry and he said, "Hey mom, that's woman's work." I almost wrestled him into the dryer.
The agreeable versus helpful aspect of gender expectations resonates with me, OB. I had a marriage that was as close to 50/50 as I have ever seen. My husband did housework without being asked, went grocery shopping as often as I did, and did his own laundry. We agreed, however, that it wasn't him being "helpful," it was him carrying half the load. The difference in mindset is crucial.

But by agreeable, he meant "always agreeable."
That wasn't possible for me. I sometimes said "no" to sex. I sometimes said "no" to his ideas. He really wanted someone who would say "yes" all the time, so he found someone he thought would.

Lezlie
You have plenty of deep thinking written on this post O.

I ended two marriages. Neighter were close to 50/50 by a long shot.
I feel too old to entertain any more thoughts on marriage. I don't want to put the time or effort involved it one.
I am happy to be lone now and forever. My choice.
I agree that we have a long way to go, and that the effort seems to have stalled in too many ways.

However, I'm also concerned that you seem to be surrounded by people who are in very inequitable relationships. I do know a lot of people who've succeeded in finding a comfortable balance. It's possible, it's worthwhile, and it defuses a lot of cynicism.
I am with Sheila on the 60/40 rotation and always have. That works pretty well and leaves each partner a little freer and lighter to have quality time for themselves. If reliable, this quotient allows both to feel valued, supported and leaves room for companionship and give and take. More importantly, it shows a willingness to work on the relationship without the slanted expectations of the 90/10. Very thoughtful piece and appreciate your perspective.
First marriage-90/10
this one 40/60...and rotating quite like Sheila outlined.

Exceptional post...one that reflects not only your expertise and experience but the current pulse of many women, whether in or out of a relationship-young or old. It's a dance with ever changing moves and moods...a plant that requires constant pruning.
Although I am much happier in this marriage, I doubt that if anything happened and I found myself single again I would ever choose to couple up again. (Unless we're looking at a Golden Girls model) Highly rated!
Quite interesting piece. You explained many of the reasons why I never married anyone.
This was worth it for the Xena wisdom alone. I've often said that one of the nice things about being gay is that in our marriages, we will have all the same issues as other couples -- except gender disparity. I now refer to straight couples as "gender discordant" for this reason; though mostly tongue in cheek. Now if only we could get ourselves legal...
The reality is that both need to feel like they are doing at least 60% to have any real chance at equity.

And someone must care less about "being right" and "having the last word".

With young children, there is virtually an obligation to make difficult compromises.

Minus kids, not so much.

I think we need to rethink both marriage and divorce.

I would think that your patients should be encouraged to think in less binary terms.

And is it REALLY housework? That seems like the least of it to me. Living with someone that is overly critical can be soul deadening.
First we must define 50/50. I think each marriage needs its own contract. So much depends on the independent nature of the partners. You cook better? So Cook! Companionship and trust are key.
Thanks for all the great responses! Thankfully, I am not personally surrounded by too many people with bad marriages, and have found an equitable relationship in my life. It's never 50/50, exactly, but that is less important to me than the balance of feeling we are both trying, and I can ask for help and get it without a fight (same goes the other way) which was not what I was used to before.
My patient will figure out where it needs to go, for her it was a lot of demeaning criticism. When you work outside the home, it is easier to pay for a housekeeper to help out. Then again, I know there are many women who don't know when to stop "doing doing doing" all the time and wonder why no one wants to meet them half way. Nick, criticism nags at us all, men and women, pretty badly I think.
I know a number of women in the 50-60 age bracket who never wish to have a live in relationship again. They experience some loneliness but it's similar to what they experienced in marriage and less work and sacrifice. When I was online dating I noticed in my age group the men looking for LTR's averaged about 4 times the women. From the conversations I've had with women it seems the longer they were free the less likely they were to give up it up. All had one thing in common, it would have to be very worth it in terms of equality.

I had 5 of husbands and only one had the endurance and patience to do an equal amount of work, the other 4 were exhausted and often cranky after a day at work yet none had physical jobs. Maybe it's unfair to expect men to work as hard as women because I'm not sure how much of that is physiology, sprinters vs marathoners. He was also more able to go without trophy toys and gratification without complaint when necessary. I have no idea how much of this is "nature," but I've observed that most women seem much tougher no matter how fluffy they look.

It's not easy to break free and once you have freedom from servitude you don't throw it away lightly. I have a lot to offer, I'm not sure what equal is but I want something offered in return.

Great thoughts and questions. Hopefully my granddaughter will have what my mother, daughters and I didn't.
Funny how reading about other people's divorces makes me start feeling bitter all over again - although certainly, way, way less bitter.

By my experience, a 50/50 share of the housework makes no more difference than the choice of curtains. I've been divorced twice, and believe me, this was not the problem.

I'd better stop. Thank OB, I always enjoy your reasoned and articulate posts.
Interesting and a lot of truths here. Most of the woman I see that are single in their fifties or older, are not looking for marriage at all, for the reasons you state. My male friends sometimes avoid woman their own age stating they are "angry". For many good reasons I say but still. Trying to each get everything we thought we would have after the kids moved away has been an issue with us, not the material but the dreams and financial allocation of funds that go with them. Thanks for this, the thread was great here also.
Sometimes it goes the other way, you know. In our house I do all the cooking, laundry, dishes, grocery shopping, kids' homework, bathtime, bedtime. And I work a 40-hour week. Think there may be a reason for some resentment when she asks incredulously why the floor hasn't been vacuumed? Unfortunately I'm the 90 in this 90/10 split.
Thanks again for all the great responses, because I know we have a lot of awesome readers and writers here who think about these things, maybe even learn better communication and sharing skills. I know this is not a one way street with only women being on the 90% end of the burden every time. I do hope this is a good starting point for identifying where and when conversations need to take place before the beginning of the end.
People used to know what they were getting into with marriage, but now it is a personal plan that they may not understand fully;
I have been in a bad marriage, naieve, married selfish man; and mature, married wonderful, super- caring responsible man.
This marriage is by far the high point of my life. We are both very happy after 12 years.