Oryoki's House

Queen Bee of a Small Hive

Oryoki Bowl

Oryoki Bowl
Birthday
February 03
Bio
Quaker buddhist, kinda quirky, loves cooking and knitting and movies. Dr Who fan, Scandinavian-aquarian and cat lover. Would love to be paid to travel around the world and write about local healing cultures. While eating and drinking and dancing. One day I will have a health cruise in the fjords.

FEBRUARY 12, 2012 1:02PM

What I learned living in a Socialized Democratic Country

Rate: 8 Flag

Many people in America cry out for universal health care, pointing to the other countries that do it well.  We point out that the  % of GDP here is much higher than in other places, and that we spend well over twice what the next country (Canada*) spends, on average, per citizen on health costs.  We hear from foreigners living here and Americans who have lived abroad that it is better.  The United States is one of the only countries in the "free world" that doesn't have national health care.  But understanding what we want means understanding the terms, and also how they apply to the big picture. 

Universal health care is not entirely synonymous with national health care.  We think it will mean every person will have access to the most standardized, highest quality medical care anywhere we live or set foot, without paying for it.  National health care is a system of "single payer".  It is not free, by far.  Countries with national health care have significantly higher taxes- both on goods and services, as well as property and income- than anywhere in the United States.  There is no opting in or out.  Those who have more money still frequently buy private health insurance, and go to private hospitals and get the care they want, faster, or of higher quality, than they can get in the national health system.  For the poor, they are getting good, average care.  For the rich, they can go to another country or private.  That is true anywhere in the world.  

Universal access is a different story.  We have, for the most part, universal access in the United States.  If you live out in the country, there is less choice.  Someone has to pay for those doctors and those buildings and those techs and those machines to be there, and that is always based on money.  Otherwise, any of us can get health care and will not be denied it for emergency and lifesaving medicine.   Who picks up the tab is another story altogether.  The libertarians would have us believe we should only pay for what we use.  But the doctor must be educated for years before they get to us, the buildings bought and filled out, standing on ready.  You can't have an expensive medicine on hand if it hadn't already spent years in development and research and manufacturing.  Medicines go bad.  All of those things must be there, paid for, at the time you need them, whether you need them now or in ten years.  

National health care is always part of a greater national welfare system. Depending on the country,  the integration of the community makes it easier or harder to apply these services.  Scandinavian countries were once aristocratic and had social revolutions that put in place social democracies.  There is no institutional inequality anymore, and this is very important.  The attitude of those growing up in those countries is towards equality of each other, between men and women, and respect for old and young alike.  They have an understanding of personal freedom and rights that I have personally found lacking in most Americans.  There is a huge difference between rights, liberties and privileges.  Everyone is raised with a strong sense of responsibility towards each other.  People don't have guns, and violence is very low.   Contraception and abortion are also universally available, and are an expected part of health care.  Because, once a child is conceived and the mother decides to carry it, that child and mother will be cared for the rest of their existence. 

Other countries, like England, still have a hugely entrenched class system that makes retrograde socialization very hard to budge.  They also have a completely different history of colonialization and immigration than Scandinavia, and Germany, and a completely different history of occupation by Nazis and Soviets.   If you think that doesn't matter, you would be wrong.  Living through the aftermath of two world wars, in the ruins of society, among the buildings, in the fields, in a relatively small land mass (Europe), with a very dense population of very diverse cultures, is entirely different than 400 years of post English colonialism, two pre-industrial wars fought on our land, and a long history of institutionalized inequality and racism.   The worst war we experienced on our land was the Civil War, and I understand the South still hasn't fully recovered.  

Why this is important is that the places with the most successful integration of social welfare- medicine, education, housing, transportation- have an attitude in common.  That is for the communal respect of each other, and the care and investment and responsibility in each person in that society towards each other. Social democracy is a "cradle to grave" institution, and works better in places where most people have the same religions, cultures, and values.  Within Denmark, you can talk about the difference between the rudeness of those from Copenhagen, the mildness of those from Fyn, and the bucholic daftness of those from Jutland, and compare notes on their accents and relative intelligence.  Of course, until you live there long enough and understand the accents, most people would find Danes relatively the same.  Underneath all the colloquialisms, we find a country of people who know that if they were to move to any other part of the country, they are "in the system" and have the same rights to education, welfare, medicine, and same expectation of quality, as anywhere else.  The kommune** system keeps track of their members, but is transferrable.  

We see this falling apart in Scandinavia, as well as all over Europe, now.  Aside from the weakness in the Euro (caused by the Greeks***, of course!, with their different values and different history and different culture), the Europeans have major clashes of class, religion, culture and immigration that are very serious.  This has been going on for over 20 years (I witnessed anti muslim attacks while studying in Spain in 1992, and they weren't uncommon), and indicates cracks in the system that idealists and philosophers dont' address.  In order to have a good attitude towards commonwealth (in the socialist sense), you must have a good attitude towards those you share the common wealth with.  Americans don't have this attitude any better, and we are more vocal about it.  We justify our history of institutionalized racism and slavery, and still pursue it through our nationalist means (immigration laws).  We justify our right to pursue our own happiness at the neglect of others.  We justify our right to let others fend for themselves, after all, we killed thousands of Native Americans in order to turn this wild continent into a country less than 200 years ago.  We don't have a long history of shared neighbor space and invasion with our neighbors.  We have a short history of colonialism and manifest destiny, thievery, robber barons, tycoons and occupation.  Of course, now, we have run out of space to take over.   

One of the reasons I left Denmark and returned to living in the United States was environment.  Despite Denmark leading the world in green technology, recycling (they've done it for 50 years), and environmental awareness and organic food, I need sunshine more than alcohol to combat the SAD I experienced there and growing up in New England.  I needed more visual space, as well, for the claustrophobia I get in urban settings and along the densely populated and heavily treelined, winding roads and thick with buildings streets of Europe and New York.  I had already lived in rural Colorado and New Mexico (urban Santa Fe) and had a hard time pressing my mind into tight, dark, rainy space.  

When the environment forces you to contend with dark, wet, tight space day after day, you learn to get along with your neighbors a little better, but there is only so much room for it.  I was seen as an eternal optimist, pollyanna to my russian counterparts at school there.  I mystified the Serbians fleeing the war in Kosovo.  My friends from language school, from all over the world, moving to Denmark loved the neatness, the tidyness, the politeness, the schedules, the kommune.  Yet, all observed the coldness beneath the politeness, the reliance on sarcasm, smoking and heavy drinking, to get through it all.  And we didn't even have cold winters.

 If you are not a Dane, you are an outsider no matter how long you have lived there.  I am half Danish, and learned to speak the language quite well, and still found it very very hard to make friends with anyone but English, Russian, Chinese, Canadian, Spanish.... If you are not a Dane, you are taking up the social welfare resources, one way or another, more than you are putting into them.  This is what people are thinking, and will say if they think you are white enough to hear it.  A cousin of mine worked for the UN and was top tier in the Foreign Ministry, so I got to hear this from the perspective of one who gets behind those closed doors on national policy and diplomatic relations.  People flock there to get those social benefits, and there is a huge backlash.  With the falling of the euro, there are many cuts into the social safety net.  Immigration laws have tightened, citizenship rights are changing, again, and deportations are stepping up.  Sound familiar?

Americans are too different from one another and too disrespectful of other cultures, religions, races and ideals to have a successful social welfare system.  The parts of the country, like New England, where socialism is more realized, are much smaller and less diverse.  Our system is not built on the same foundation, historically or culturally as Europe, or Japan, or England.  We could change our attitude about a national health care system, but it would still mean a lot of money out of our pockets, and not necessarily improve the service.  Some things would be better, like cheaper and more efficient, some things would get worse, like longer waiting times and less innovation.   Cuba has a great national health care system and most Cubans live in abject poverty.  They aren't getting top of the line medical care, they are getting the generic, knock off versions of what we have developed in this country.  

The cost of our healthcare, outside of the administrative and profit margins of insurers, is also the reality we lead the world in innovation.  Socialized countries take our medicines, our technology, and use them- but they rarely develop them.  I'd be happy to end up in a Danish hospital for many things, but I also know that if I was 70 and got lung cancer, I wouldn't be given all the lifesaving care necessary until the end.  If I needed a new hip at 40 it would happen, but much later if I was retired.  I was glad to see more acupuncture available when I was there last, and will check things out when I visit this summer, but there is a very narrow range of what medicine is paid for.  That means less choice, less freedom, and less hope.   

The other reason I left.  I am too American, I am used to having another option, and a positive outlook.   

   ******          ********      

* This was from the last stats I read, maybe outdated by now. 

** If you don't know the modern history of Europe, or the difference between Nazis, fascism, socialism, and communism, as well as theoretical versus how it really happened, please sort this out yourself.  Kommune is a word for commonwealth, in the way we use county to refer to public welfare.  It is not remotely synonymous with what we refer to as communes here in the states.

***  Currently, the Greeks are to blame.  The "blame" for failure of unity is always between the highly industrious north/protestant countries, and the more lassez faire and corrupt south/mediterranean/catholic countries.  Thankfully, the phenomenon was pointed out to me by my european history teacher when I was in undergrad in Madrid.   How much does religion have to do with shaping attitudes towards fate, poverty, personal destiny, family vs clan vs strangers?  Well, historically, a lot.  

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So nice to hear the "Universal Health care" issue framed in terms of pros, cons, cost and responsibilities rather than rabid rants about "rights" vs "freedoms"
thanks
This is probably a little too nuanced for the level of discussion typical on OS.

Most Americans don't have passports and have never seen the reality of other cultures.

A couple of points. The European countries tend to be tiny compared to the US. Denmark and Switzerland are about the size of Connecticut plus a couple of adjoining counties.

If the Blue states were hived off, we could have medical systems more like Canada and Europe without too much political backlash.

I would trade our system for Switzerland in a heartbeat. Al Franken was proposing Switzerland's insurance based system as an alternative to ours.

But back to the incredible scale of the US system. The VA alone is as large as the systems in either Switzerland or Denmark.

United Health Care serves several times the entire population of those countries.

We have huge, overlapping expensive systems. The Federal Government runs Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, the DOD health system, and pays for benefits of Federal employees. They are close to directly paying 50% of all costs in the US.

No one in America wants to give up ANYTHING. Not that I blame individuals, but people want the government to pay for their stuff, just not anyone else's.

As far as your last point about optimism -- I agree. That is one reason people are so angry. Americans have a sense of optimism and fair play that underlies a lot of the anger -- which is incomprehensible to most people in the world.
Token- thanks for the visit. I, of course, see it from the pov of well educated (lucky me, and private schools too), foreign parented, traveled and optimistic white woman. I try to make this as objective as I can in terms of right and wrong, and just describe what I see while seeing only as I realize I can.

Nick- absolutely, all those things, and more. It's very easy to try to compare, but sheer scale alone defies it. I think the Chinese, Indians, and the Soviets are the only who have remotely tried anything on the scale we have, and we have more space, still, and far fewer people. Which goes back to the difference between federal and states rights, and laws. Vermont has done a great job socializing health care, but it has less than a million people in a tiny space. And very high taxes comparatively.
I appreciate and acknowledge the “apples and oranges” theme of your essay, Oryoki Bowl.

That notwithstanding, I have always hoped that we Americans would be the ones to show the world how a truly great nation can handle the problem of “all our people need medical attention”…we have adequate facilities, doctors, nurses and medical equipment to provide it (or can easily build up to where we have adequate)…so all we have to do is to figure out how to get it done.

We truly do not seem up to the job.

Funny, because “the job” really doesn’t seem all that complex.

We can send a satellite to Saturn to take a picture of a particular feature on one of its moons! How can it be that we cannot do that other job?

Well…the next few years will see strides made…I hope.

We’ll see.
Couple comments. Dunno anything about Denmark, but my husband in his late 70s didn't do any waiting for his hip replacements here in Canada. And we may pay higher taxes - but it's a matter of from those who have and given to those who haven't. I've been on both sides of that situation, and have no problems at all with now paying a lot of taxes. At least payment for health care here goes to health care, and not to insurance vampires.

You may be right about American attitudes - y'all can't even agree that you all ARE 'real' Americans. It might be better to break up into several countries that feel some cohesion.
Thanks Frank- it's not that we can't, it's that we won't. Just like those who are prolife vs prochoice, libertarian vs progressive liberal, we have those who are against federalism, pro capitalism, and those who want to see some things evened out forcibly. Half the country is on socialized medicine, but the products they use are created in a capitalized system.

Myriad- yes, it really matters which country you are talking about. My mom had to wait ages to get her teeth replaced, and meanwhile racked up a dozen infections and hospitalizations- not being able to eat and having a body full of bacteria is really hard on a type 1 diabetic. She gets great care, but not always in a timely fashion. And you're right, we don't even agree who counts as a person, because I think there is still a deep current that believes in the right to treating people as property or to deny humanity in others. This country was built on slave labor and indentured servants, and Europe was as well. I think our fascination with Downton Abbey is seeing the transition of the social order with The Great War. Americans didn't experience that change, because we didn't have it. Don't know as much about Canadian history, sorry, though I know Quebec still hasn't decided if it is Canadian or not. :)
Very well-put.

Here in France, I've experienced a lot of what you wrote about. Except I haven't yet had anyone openly imply that I'm a drain on resources (which I resent because I pay taxes!), except for the bitter employees of the immigration office, maybe....

I think healthcare is ultimately about the state of mind of a country's majority, and you explain very well here why it would be hard - if not impossible - for such a concept to work in America. I would also add the importance of the "American dream": I have friends and family members who are pretty poor now and would benefit enormously from universal healthcare - but they hope and even expect that one day they'll earn a lot of money, and when that day comes, they don't want any of it to go towards a system that means they would have to contribute to others' care - they want to keep their hoped-for money to themselves. You make a very good point about how European cultures have different ideas about this.

I see the way a lot of people I know in the US flounder to pay medical bills, and it just breaks my heart - and worries me, when it comes to people like my mom, who I may one day have to help care for. But I know that the system in the US will probably never change. I'm glad I live in a country where I'm thrilled with the healthcare policy.
You cover a lot of ground with this one Oryoki. regarding the comparisons to other countries' systems, the notion of American Exceptionalism inhibits that. Anyone suggesting an emulation of this or that other country gets shot down mighty quick. Plus the vested interests in the current system have money to spend and aren't shy in spending it to maintain their position.
Thank you Alysa for contributing your valued and qualified perspective. (As to the remarks, I heard them from Danes, because I was a Dane. Everyone has an opinion about those who benefit too much from the system, I was on social welfare a while and worked and paid taxes a while).

Abrawang- Americans like to have a simple solution, a plan, a pill, a soundbyte for everything. Which destroys understanding complexity. The cry for universal healthcare is like the cry for peace. You have to define what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, and how you enforce it. There will always be people who lie outside the system. We are too invested in the right to profit, which is the basis of all insurance- profiting from the risk. Socialized welfare is not profitable, but it is not insurance either.
Greed and no one wants to share.. Seems if you have to shell out a shilling or two to help someone else .. well thats a no no
HUGGGGGGGG
"It might be better to break up into several countries that feel some cohesion."

Think we tried that once or twice in our history!! :D

We're a mix group of mutts who can't even agree on what flavor of ice cream is our national flavor(I say Rocky Road!! :D)

Rated!
Thanks, Oryoki. Another one of your reflective, informative pieces. I think money and profit are the basic cause of why things don't work so well for health care. It's not so much providing the care but making the profit the powers that be are interested.
This is one of the sillier posts about the health care debate that I've yet read, and trust me, I've read some silly ones. Your position seems to be that we shouldn't be a nation that takes care of the less fortunate among us because.... we're a nation that doesn't value taking care of the less fortunate among us.

Well that explains everything!

And this:

"We have, for the most part, universal access in the United States"


hahahahaha!

Are you serious? Have you ever been poor in this country and then gotten seriously ill? The "access" you refer to is access to an ER if you have blood pouring out of your body, but do you really think that translates to across the board health care for people who don't happen to have the money to pay for it? If you do, you're as foolish as this post is. Live in the ghetto for a while, Ms. Bowl, then get back with me about how we have "universal access" to health care in this country.
And Nick, if by "a little too nuanced" you mean a little too condescending and a little too nose-in-the- air smug, you nailed it completely.
Interesting points about many sides of this issue.
Nana- I have actually worked with those who are dirt poor and have few to no resources. And yes, if you need the ER, they will take you, and often put you with a social worker to sort out the financial mess. I didn't say we had equal access, or equal opportunity, or the same health care. Americans don't have that just about anywhere, in any field, whether in education, medicine, housing, employment, public transportation, or legal representation. Interestingly, though, Americans are happy to vote for privatized prison systems but not better public healthcare. National health care varies from country to country that has it, so while the idea is universal access and paid through social taxes, what you get for health care varies. How you put a good socialized medicine system in place depends on what other investments you put into people- like making sure they have safe housing, adequate food, access to transportation, a general safety net that isn't resting on the bottom. That means more social and institutionalized welfare- in general, in practice and in attitude. Welfare isn't only about handouts, as many would suggest, it is about creating a better society through treating others with dignity and respect.
One point of geography you maybe missed living in Europe. There is no such country as England, not since 1707. It's the UK. England is an area within that country, with no parliament of its own.