All images of the danse macabre taken from the Koch Collection of Rare Books Cornell Library. Check out the other images there--amazing, amazing collection taken from book plates and engravings in the rare book room.
Okay, you all are going to have to help me out with this discussion. I have a raging cluster headache, and try as I might, I'm not getting many coherent thoughts to ...well ... cohere.
But I can say some simple things. Like I really loved this book. And maybe if I talk about why I liked this book, something substantive will emerge.
So chapter five begins with the danse macabre, which is referred to in the book as the Macabray.
In images of the danse macabre from early modern books, unsuspecting folks are shown dancing or being touched or being taunted by skeletons, who are there to remind them of their impending deaths. But in Gaiman's chapter, the dance, which takes place only during the month of a blue moon (A blue moon is a month in which two full moons appear), seems a joyous occasion. The dead get all dressed up for it. The townspeople prepare for it, although it's not clear they know why, and after the event, everyonc acts as if it never happened.
I was left puzzling over that. Why?
I kept in mind that Gaiman is writing a young adult novel, and let's face it, most teenagers think they're invincible. It's only when kids their age die that it strikes home that these things happen. (My daughter is going through this right now. One of her classmates was killed in a one-car accident 10 days ago).
But I have been trying to puzzle out what Gaiman intended by this chapter. Perhaps it's because death is always present--we all know that eventually we're going to die--and yet, we manage to live each day, most of us, without thinking of it. We do have special days in our calendar when do remember the dead: Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, but surprisingly, at least to me, these days seem to be for remembering the war dead. Do we have a day in our culture when we remember those who have died of other causes?
In Mexico, of course, there's the fantastic Day of the Dead, where families spruce up the graves of the departed and take them a meal. I've never attended a day of the dead celebration, but I've always thought that it must be something to celebrate.
I don't believe in an afterlife, but I do not fear death. In the Macabray, the interaction between the living and the dead is presented as something fun, a celebration, and dances, let's face it, are sensual. (Why else are they always getting banned?)
When Bod presses Silas for an answer as to why he is forbidden to speak of the Macabray, this is what he is told:
Because there are mysteries. Because there are things that people are forbidden to speak about. Because there are things they do not remember.
That is what I wanted to say about the last half of this book. Obviously, there's tons more to talk about, but I was entranced by the chapter on the Macabray.
What are your thoughts? After you've finished reading, how young a child do you think would enjoy this book? Would you recommend it?
Where did you find meaning in this book? Where did you find yourself disagreeing with the ways that Gaiman had created Bod's world?
Let's chat.
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Laurenjwalter
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Comments
and I found one of the most intriguing things the way that Bod's only friend found him too scary in the end to be his real friend anymore...that she even had to have her memory of him erased. Part of me was irritated with the fact that she had to play a classic heroine by getting rescued in the end. But it was a different twist that he didn't get to claim her as a prize in any way. In fact she found his heroics (in any other book) only made him "other" to her and she retreated happily back to the normal world (which also seemed somehow realistic to me...)
Overall, I'm impressed that he gets so much of the emotional lives of young people right...in the way that I perceive and remember this age at least...and I really loved his interactions with the witch. She's one of my favorite characters and I found it wonderful that he said he wrote chapter 4, the chapter about her, first, and then wrote the rest of the book up around that story.
I didn't find the book frightening, so I was having a hard time figuring out at what age a kid would "get" this. I'm thinking middle school sometimes.
The importance of the book for young adults regards being the other...in Bod's case he did not even know he was an 'other' while living in the graveyard: he had to learn about his otherness there and then back in the external society. Bod learns to accept his otherness in the graveyard while accepting his and their differences. He then has to learn that same acceptance and comfort level and be confident in leaving the graveyard that he can survive and succeed.
What did not feel appropriate was the school bullying episode. I could not 'fit' this into Bod's narrative; it seemed to serve no purpose other than sensational heroism. Of course, in a book written for adolescents there must be heroes and villains but these two villains seemed insubstantial and irrelevant.
I loved the Danse Macabre, Lorraine. Our relation to death is dance-like, intimate but formal, so I felt the metaphor worked.
Sorry can't help you, didn't read it, I'm just here for the cake! *L*
The plates taken from those early books are wonderful. And the book sounds fascinating, but I got to this particular Book Club and this offering, late... so though I believe I will make it a point to read the book, right now all I can comment on are the thoughts presented here.
I used to be frightened of objects which I later in life are called Memento Mori -- literally a Remembrance of Death. People in my great-grandparents and grandparents lives kept these items, these objects mixing beauty with skeletal images to to remind themselves that they too would die.
Kids back then, even young children -- as well as young adults --grew up with the awareness of these things and also a very strong family and moral, ethical framework and structure to base themselves in.
Like it or not, things are really not the same today -- for the better or worse of them -- and maybe a parent should be wee bit careful of what they have their children read -- or maybe no matter how careful they are some of the wrong messages will get through along with the good messages -- but they get no messages on any f the things they should know, if they are not allowed to read things like this book -- which seem very meaningful and with purpose.
As I have gotten older, I have very much come to appreciate Memento Mori as the reminders that one day we will all die.
Many of the Amerinds believed that we all carry our own death around with us, not only to protect us, but to encourage us to live the strongest and best lives we can.
And the belief of one existential way of thought is that each person comes to a belief or non-belief in God when faced with the prospect of his or her own death.
So, though I cannot be sure until I read it, I would think this would be a very good book to read and depending on the child or young adult at the age they are able to full grasp the concept of death.
And now I probably said more than I should on the subject, but there it is.
I used to be frightened of objects which I Learned later in life are called "Memento Mori"
Kids back then, even young children -- as well as young adults --grew up with the awareness of these things and also a very strong family and moral, ethical framework and structure IN WHICH to base themselves.
Like it or not, things are really not the same today -- for the better or worse of them -- and maybe a parent should be wee bit careful of what they have their children read -- or maybe no matter how careful they are some of the wrong messages will get through along with the good messages -- but THE KIDS will get no messages on any OF the things they should know, if they are not allowed to read things like this book -- which seem very meaningful and with purpose.
MESSAGES SEEM very meaningful and with purpose or BOOK SEEMS TO BE very meaningful and WRITTEN with purpose.
So, though I cannot be sure until I read it, I would think this would be a very good book to read and -- depending on the child or young adult at the age they are able to full grasp the concept of death -- FOR THEM TO READ ALSO.
Not shouting with the caps, just cannot seem to get the HTML editor to work so that I can even just italicize.
Sorry.
Re: "@pjv I have a thing about memento mori. Have had since I was a child. A few years ago I found a lovely skeleton carved from wood in Mexico. His arm and leg joints are articulated and he lounges about my home in various casual poses."
I love it. I have gotten assorted little plastic and metal articulated skeletons on eBay -- nothing as artistic as your fellow, however.
Also I got a biker's sterling ring there, with bright sapphire eyes -- of course, this could launch us into a whole other discussion of various facets of the fascination of things involving death -- from the spectral lady who intones "Flores para muertos?" in the movie A Streetcar Named Desire" to the inscription on the stone in the secret chamber of the Skull & Bones club... couldn't it?
Nice to make your acquaintance, btw. !:]
Goodness, I'm having a time keeping things straight today. I just need to get the hang of how everything works since I'm fairly new to the site.
Maybe my head will be clearer and more in the game when I get back from walking to the Tuesday Farmers Market.
So as Mike Myers would say: "Enjoy and discuss among yourselves!" *L*
I wonder what people think about why Graiman chose to have a child growing up in the graveyard...not to get too cheesy about metaphor. But my kitchen looks out on a graveyard and for some reason I like having this connection with the dead, so to speak (and strangely, most of the people in the graveyard are very young according to their tombstones...it goes back to pioneering days when 25 was old and for someone to live until their 30's they were ancient ancient....).
and one last thing, the side characters in this story for the most part were really fun which is for me a huge marker of books I like verses books that are merely so so. I liked the poet (Nehemiah Trot "revenge is a dish best served cold") who punished the world by insisting that he be buried with his magnum opus to be published in 1000 years ("still plenty of time left...")...and the inscriptions on graves are also fun throughout, "Lost to All But Memory..." or "Who Did No Harm to No Man all the Dais of Her Life. Reader, Can You Say Lykewise?"...)
If I can quote Psychomama (thank you for this observation), "Our relation to death is dance-like, intimate but formal, so I felt the metaphor worked."
It is so interesting that in the U.S., many families can discuss sex with young people, but it is death from which we try to shield them (I think that this is changing, also, but I remember not being taken to funerals as a child). As a society we try to deny/stave it off. And yet, when we embrace its inevitability, we embrace our full humanity.
Lorraine, I was born and raised in El Paso, TX and so am very familiar with "Dia de los Muertos". It is still one of my favorite holidays - will sometimes have a celebration dinner to which friends are invited to bring objects and photos and their dead ones' favorite drinks to decorate an altar/toast/tell tales, etc.
I was blown away that Scarlet became so afraid of Bod's difference, but this rang true. I was disappointed in the last couple of chapters - wanted more build-up to the mystery and its solution, somehow. It felt like the explanation of the "Order of Jacks" was left wanting, almost tacked on as an afterthought.
Overall, though, I loved the book, what it said about growing up, the wonderful eccentricity and fullness of most of the characters.
Does anyone have anything to offer on the Jacks? I liked that they were Jacks, and they were satisfyingly sinister, but did anyone else think that their story was loosey-goosey and, I hate to say it, sloppy? I know the sense of shadowy, anonymous and hidden machinations was intended,but...
@hyblaean_julie (and others) who put all of the clues together so early on and correctly guessed Silas' identify - kudos!
Not having read the comments yet ... here's my $0.02 ...
I think it really depends on the child.
For me, personally, if I had read this as a young child ... ? I think I would have accepted and moved through my mother's death easier. Being able to escape into a world where life lives on after death, after life? It is a fascinating concept to me now, and it would have been that much more so then.
That Bod was able to "live" with spirits, after his family was murdered, in this in between stage ... it speaks volumes.
Loved the book, and I must re-read it now, but what I took away from it was this ... you create your own family. Your blood may be taken away from you, but you find you own path.
I found meaning in each chapter. Some of it visceral, some of it intellectual. But overall, I really felt this book, down to my marrow.
The chapter that had the danse macabre ... that spoke to me. In the US I think we see death as something to run away from. Instead of celebrate.
Okay, I'm stopping now. I guess I'm still high on photography, and am not quite thinking in words quite yet ...
About the Jacks: The Jacks, I think, is like the loose card, the Loki. In their different forms, they represent the ubiquitous nature of danger in life: illness, ill-luck, wanton malevolence, etc. Some we can comprehend, others not. Some parents warn their children against - Jay's 'stranger danger' - and some they do not. So as children we are protected from them but, as we mature, we find our own ways of coping with/defending against them, like Bod. Does this make sense to anyone else?
As to the jacks. I agree. What are they??
****
Well, Jack Frost could be the cold of Winter, and the hint of approaching age and death -- as well as the sprightly character who draws pictures on the windows in the Wintertime and forms the icicles which are beautiful but can also be sharp enough to cut or impale. And Jack Frost has the icicles, but the Grim Reaper has the icy blade called a sickle or the longer handled scythe.
He can kill a person.
Oh, also in the use of the cold blade, he might also be Jack the Ripper.
He can kill a person.
And Jack Tar is the term for a sailor -- one who takes voyages at sea -- and may represent a voyager through Life and then Death. And sailors or not, many people seem to be at sea throughout this life.
Too loose a mooring line and no direction can possibly kill a person.
Jack-a-Dandy is a fop, often a spoiled spendthrift and wastrel in fine clothing. And could represent many if not all of the 7 deadly sins: Pride, Greed, Lust, Gluttony, though maybe not so much Envy, Sloth and Wrath.
The Deadlies as they are called can kill a person.
BTW, my hubby went out at 9:31 PM to the Barnes and Noble which closes at 10:00 PM and bought me the book so I could read it starting at about 11:30 PM and get up to speed with the discussion. And I'm over 1/2 through it -- in chunks here and there. I read the first 20 pages and then jumped to the last 2 pages -- this is how I often read a book -- after the beginning I want to know the end before either enjoying or slogging through the middle -- then I read the chapter on the Danse Macabre -- then started reading the chapter about the Jacks and I'm almost done with that chapter and what I've said is what I have unravelled so far.
And it's better to dream of Death while living Life, than to dream of Life after one is already dead -- if that's even possible -- "for in that sleep of Death what dreams may come?" [a quick thank you to Willie the Bard] -- or worse to dream of Life while alive instead of living it.
One of the things I love about the book is the way Gaiman turns everything like misty vapors such as the steam off of coffee or the fog in the graveyard into part of the substance of the spirit world.
And the wind and clouds also.
Re: "...in Gaiman's chapter, the dance, which takes place only during the month of a blue moon (...a month in which two full moons appear), seems a joyous occasion. The dead get all dressed up for it. The townspeople prepare for it, although it's not clear they know why, and after the event, everyonc acts as if it never happened. I was left puzzling over that. Why?"
Because most people tend to forget about the Dead and think of them very seldom. And maybe this is how it is supposed to be for the most part. Because Life is meant to be for the Living. And in the Bible, even Christ says: "Let the Dead bury the Dead."
But this doesn't mean we should all live as if we will never die, nor that the Dead are unimportant nor that we should never remember them...
Just once, once in a blue moon, if no more often than that, we should remember the Dead and celebrate them, too. Because as the one gravestone said: "As I am, so shall you be."
The Dead were once living people like we are, and the old were once young, with hopes and dreams and aspirations and love, just like we are.
And that blue moon ceremony was so exotic and beautiful with the white flowers from the graveyard -- a magnificent celebration and tribute to the Dead, whose spirits -- if they live on -- would appreciate the remembrance and want the Living to go on and live!
I have to second some confusion about the Jacks, though some of the comments make that a little clearer. One of the most powerful lines for me was when Bod says something like "I'm not afraid of dying, my friends and family are dead." I paused when I read that part and think I felt like Annie, that this book, rather than scaring my son, might help him overcome some fears. I also thought the Danse Macabre was beautiful, it made me wish for moments where I could touch the spirits in that way. I would say middle school is an appropriate age for readers though it depends on the individual. My 11 year old son reads and comprehends at a college level but has always had bad dreams and internalizes a lot about real life that seems to visit him at night. He did fine with all the Harry Potter books but somehow Graveyard felt more real to me and I am wondering if it will to him too. When he gets home from camp, the book is his, we'll see what happens!