Procopius

Procopius
Location
Rockford, Illinois, USA
Birthday
February 05
Bio
I'm a regular middle aged guy, living in a regular middle class neighborhood, in a regular middle-sized community in the middle of America. I am an expatriate Texan transplanted to the Midwest, and wondering how I got here, and where I'm headed.

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Salon.com
SEPTEMBER 2, 2009 6:11PM

The News From Chile -- And Implications for America

Rate: 10 Flag

Arrest warrants for more than 120 former soldiers and agents of Chile's National Intelligence Directorate were issued Tuesday for alleged human rights violations during the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet, CNN Chile reported.

Quoted from www.cnn.com, Sept. 2, 2009

 

The news out of Chile is heartening to anyone who believes there are certain crimes for which a statute of limitations should not apply.  The arrests of the former agents of dictator Augusto Pinochet will help bring closure to the thousands of family members whose loved ones simply vanished during the 1970’s and 1980’s, and whose bodies have never been recovered.   

I do not wish to be accused of “moral equivalency” when comparing the United States to other countries whose governments committed widespread atrocities.  Nothing that the United States has done in modern times is equivalent to what happened in Chile during the Pinochet dictatorship.  Still, I am struck by the willingness of that country to fully investigate the crimes its government committed against its own people.  Crimes, by the way, that were defended at the time as being necessary to the security of the state.

Right now there is a big hullabaloo in the United States about whether the Obama Administration should investigate if officials in the Bush Administration  committed criminal acts in the prosecution of the War on Terror.  Not all of the skeptics are conservative Republicans, either.  When President Obama stresses that we as a nation should look forward, rather than dwell on the past, he is offering at least implicit support for the position that the nation should not investigate possible Bush abuses. 

My question is this:  At what point is it OK to forget the crimes of the past, and when is it necessary for a nation to cleanse itself of past sins? 

Of course, part of the problem we have in the United States is a disagreement on semantics.  Is “waterboarding” torture or not?  Former Vice President Cheney insists it is not.  This legal uncertainty needs to be clarified.  The only way we will ever achieve clarity on this subject is to actually prosecute those who authorized or engaged in waterboarding.  Did their actions break anti-torture statutes and treaties?  If they are found guilty, they can be pardoned if the circumstances warrant – which they very well might, especially for low level operatives who were given shoddy legal advice from their superiors. 

As long as the United States refuses to investigate and prosecute what a reasonable person could view as criminal activity, that activity will repeat itself.  If Bush officials are exonerated, then at least we know what kind of a country we live in, and we can put to rest the naive concept of United States’ moral exceptionalism.  That distinction can go to a nation on the other side of the American landmass:  Chile.

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rule of law, pinochet, bush, torture

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Thanks for posting this. We can only hope there will be a shift in consciousness in the US as well. But this usually takes a long time, and the Chileans have gone through considerable upheaval since Pinochet's days. If we went through such a transformation process ourselves, I'm not sure what would be left of the country afterwards. But perhaps it's worth a try...?
"As long as the United States refuses to investigate and prosecute what a reasonable person could view as criminal activity, that activity will repeat itself"

that's why we don't look forward, not back, when it comes to assault, breaking and entering, perjury, murder and other crimes equivalent to the offenses of the Bush/Cheney administration

but the end of his life, Pinochet was unable to leave his country for fear of arrest and prosecution for crimes against humanity, I'd guess that the same fate awaits Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzalez, Powell, Addington, Feith, Woo, Hadley, etc, etc
Um...wait a minute. After all this fawning over Ted Kennedy? I'd say at what point it's ok to forget crimes of the past is...5 minutes after they commit them. According to the Kennedy lovers.

You can't have it both ways. Either people are held accountable for their crimes or they are not. It can't just be "some" of the people.
Interesting question. I certainly think it's more important to prosecute when governments commit more serious crimes against humanity. Disappearing people is a pretty serious crime, and as far as I know no one in our government has done that, at least not to any of our citizens.
I think it would be right for the Bush administration to be prosecuted for their abuses of people they capture and interrogated in the "War on Terror", and I think Dick Cheney might feel differently about waterboarding if it were done to him. A part of me thinks that it would be great to put that theory into practice, but I also think it is unrealistic right now. I think our country is in such a mess that we need to do some remedial things first, like get our economy back on track.
Although if we can find a way to do both at the same time, I'm all for it.
I've been thinking this over, and the answer is pretty obvious: the victims of the "Global War on Terror" are largely foreigners, living and suffering/dying outside the country. Since when does any country care about the victims it produces? (Germany, viz. Merkel's speech yesterday in Poland, is a spectacular and, as far as I know, unique exception). War memorials are always about OUR noble fallen. And how much do white Americans genuinely care about Blacks and Natives? Enough to investigate what actually happened back then and pay their descendants damages? Or yield up prime real estate illegally seized in the past?

So the Chileans, who are both perpetrators and the victims of Pinochet, have a clear interest in pursuing this. Americans? Not so much.

I would be utterly delighted if anyone here could prove me wrong about this.
Deborah, you're correct, I should not have let Ted Kennedy off the hook...oh wait, I never mentioned him at all. What Kennedy did in 1969 would more than likely be prosecuted as manslaughter if it happened to you or me. That is irrelevant as to whether or not torturers in the Bush Administration (or any administration) should be prosecuted for breaking laws that were signed by Ronald Reagan. I'm not the only one who thinks that...so does Alberto Gonzales, who said, "We worked very hard to establish ground rules and parameters about how to deal with terrorists. And if people go beyond that, I think it is legitimate to question and examine that conduct to ensure people are held accountable for their actions." So I am pretty much in agreement with Bush's Attorney General.

Alan, I'm reminded of Thomas Jefferson, who once postulated that nations need revolutionary upheaval once in a generation. Like you, I'm not too sure I want to experience it, though. I just think it's a dangerous game to let the powerful off the hook for actions that are so contrary to our nation's aspirations and moral standing.

Roy, if I beat the crap out of my neighbor I'd probably hope the police decide to look forward! Then I can beat him up again later.

spoons, that's why I wanted to make it crystal clear that the United States' actions don't rise to the level of Pinochet's. Although, it is pretty well documented that prisoners subjected to "enhanced interrogation" died.
Alan, the difference is that anyone who is in the United States is subject to, and protected by, the laws of the United States. If a foreigner is arrested and held in US custody, then he is protected by the same rights as I would be.

You live in Germany, but (as far as I know) you are not a German citizen. Still, aren't you glad you are protected by German law? Otherwise, you could be arrested and tortured with absolutely no consequence to those doing the arresting and torturing. One's nationality is irrelevant, you are still protected by the law when you are in a "Rechtsstaat".
Great breaking news, P. And spoons, I think we've 'disappeared' THOUSANDS of people (thousands of OURS, hundreds of thousands of theirs) since 2003, or don't you watch the war news? Geez. Good for Chile, doing the right thing. (BTW, this has nothing to do with Kennedy). Rated.
@littleboxofspoons -- Although no U.S. citizens have "disappeared" as did the victims in Chile, U.S. citizens, Jose Padilla and Yaser Hamdi were held without charges until labeled "enemy combatants." Then still were initially denied access to family and legal counsel. The Bush Administration argued against their writs of habeas corpus. The Supreme Court decided in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld (542 U.S. 507) that the government does not have the authority under the Constitution to deny a U.S. citizen's right to challenge his/her detention in front of an impartial judge.

Procopius -- I fully agree with you. If I would begin a comment in support of your post and comments, I'm afraid it would turn into a multi-page commentary/diatribe/rant. Neither of us want that.
I find the comment stream following these blogs very enjoyable; it's a discussion, and usually in full sentences, too. But they vanish very quickly in the ongoing deposits of new strata of blogs and discussions. One can search tags and author names on OS. Can one search comments?
Dave, I just sent you a personal e-mail to try to answer your question there.
Good post. Thanks! Rated.
What can I say, Steve, except a very loud and affrimative "YES".

We cannot say that we are a nation of laws when we allow those in government to circumvent those laws. There needs to be an investigation, but one that is impartial.

I mean, I'd hate to see Blackwater running an investigation into alleged violations. :-D

Thumbed. Raising a toast to the people of Chile.
You've written a reasoned and even-tempered analysis of your point of view on this subject. Any such "truth commission" inquiry could well spawn a host of unanticipated and, perhaps, unintended consequences.
CarolinaBlue, you are correct about that. That's where the power of the pardon comes to play. I just dislike the status quo, where a vociferous and influential element of our society seems very cavalier about what constitutes torture. That uncertainty will persist, and actions will be repeated, until that uncertainty is dealt with. Again, if those who agree with Cheney are correct, that we have not engaged in torture, then let the courts vindicate them. Of course, if that happens, then we have made legal a method of interrogation that was favored by the Spanish Inquisition.
Thanks for the update.

But think how long it took in Chile.
Benjamin, you make a good point. In our country, I wonder if we have the historical memory to wait that long. It would be comparable to prosecuting now those who were involved in Iran-Contra, or even earlier offenses that might have been done during the Carter Administration!
Waterboarding has been torture in this country for a long time, at least back to the Philippine "insurrection." Japanese interrogators used it during WW2 and were prosecuted and punished for it.

Article VI of the US Constitution declares that the Constitution and treaties ratified by the US constitute the highest laws of the land. The US ratified the Convention Against Torture and that convention requires that anyone alleged to have committed torture or to have aided or abetted torture must be prosecuted or extradited to a lawful nation that will prosecute them. Both Bush and Cheney confessed (boasted?) on television that they authorized torture. If we are a law-abiding nation with a Constitutional government then torture must be prosecuted or the alleged perpetrators extradited. That's not so hard to understand. Torture and the response to torture by this nation exemplifies the contempt in which those in the US military are held, despite the ribbons and flag lapels, because it leaves them without any protection from torture. I have been waiting for the media to thank Iran and North Korea for not forcing false confessions from captured US journalists as we did with POWs. I am still waiting.
Robert, that's why I think we need trials, because there is loud element of our society that is in denial, who says that waterboarding is a harmless technique that doesn't rise to the level of torture. That kind of thinking, if allowed to persist, guarantees that we will employ it again as official policy. I don't want my country to engage in that activity, and the only way to keep that from happening is to prosecute it and determine once and for all if it is against the law. Right now, people like Cheney, Rumsfield, Hannity, et. al. think it is perfectly legal. Let's see if they are correct, and whether the United States is the kind of country that doesn't mind using the same techniques that were used by imperial Japan and the Spanish Inquisition.