MARCH 20, 2012 2:58PM

Shouldn't It Be About Fair And Equitable?

Rate: 4 Flag

 

Here are the first five definitions of the word “fair” as found in the online Dictionary.com website:

fair

[fair]  adjective, fair·er, fair·est, adverb, fair·er, fair·est, noun, verb

adjective

1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge.

2. legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules: a fair fight.

3. moderately large; ample: a fair income.

4. neither excellent nor poor; moderately or tolerably good: fair health.

5. marked by favoring conditions; likely; promising: in a fair way to succeed.

 

Here are the definitions for “equitable”:

equitable

[ek-wi-tuh-buhl] adjective

1. characterized by equity or fairness; just and right; fair; reasonable: equitable treatment of all citizens.

2. Law .

a. pertaining to or valid in equity.

b. pertaining to the system of equity,  as distinguished from the common law.

 

So, we have “free from bias, dishonesty and injustice” and “characterized by equity or fairness;just and right; fair; reasonable”

 

Now, how many people feel that “fair and equitable” is a phrase that should be used to describe the desired treatment of all citizens of the United States?  OK, it doesn’t matter if you raise your hand since I can’t see you anyway (not yet – but I hear the technology is coming soon…).  The important thing is that you believe that “fair and equitable” is something that SHOULD be applied to everyone in terms of law, in terms of serviceability, in terms of societal responsibility.  “Fair and equitable” means we are all treated equally.

 

So, since I’ve defined the phrase for you in plain terms that anyone can understand, can someone tell me what is “fair and equitable” about a health care insurance system where Viagra is a covered expense but oral contraception is not? 

How about a criminal justice system where an unarmed black teenager is shot dead on the street by an armed white civilian and the police don’t  even consider arresting the shooter (I mean seriously – even if the shooter WAS attacked by the teen, it did NOT justify the use of deadly force, look up the legal definition if you must)?

It’s ok – I know, even though I can’t hear you either (not yet – but…well, you know) I also know the silence is deafening. 

 

It isn’t fair and equitable.

 

And you all damn well know it.

 

So there is really nothing to discuss, is there?  Either oral contraception is made to be covered by insurance or all you impotent rich white guys will have to fund your own supply of little blue pills.

And either the shooter gets arrested for manslaughter or you'd better not bother the black guy who shoots an unarmed white kid who “attacked him”.

 

Easy peasy.

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the right has twisted this insurance/contraception coverage issue - whatta surprise - into some bs libertarian big government 'don't spend my tax dollars on your promiscuity' convolution. it's insane. it makes me crazy to even *read* what they (she, in tonight's OS ignorance-displayed case) say about it since there are factual inaccuracies throughout.

this is about insurance coverage. when ms. fluke testified before a congressional committee, it was to point out that the health insurance plans available to students at georgetown (a private, i.e., not publicly funded) university didn't cover contraceptives prescribed by a doctor *for any reason*.

there was never a question of contraceptives being paid for by the US government, by taxpayers. the issue was whether religious-affiliated institutions could *choose* to offer insurance coverage *paid for by the student as part of their tuition package* that refused to cover contraceptives.

but just try having a discussion with one of these wingnuts about the facts of this issue. go ahead, just try it. they not only don't know the facts, they don't want to hear them. all you get is that bleating obamacare-bad-don't-tread-on-me crap at high volume, the kind of "la la la la la-if i say this loud enough i can't hear you" garbage. so, as much as i love you, quatto, my advice is: forget the idea of fair and equitable. those of us who get it already get it. those other guys refuse to listen.
Apparently a choir of one, Candace. 34 views, 1 rate and 1 comment ( and I assume the rate and comment are both yours). It's all good, I'm used to having a fairly thin audience here (in terms of numbers, not BMI - I wouldn't know about that and couldn't care less, frankly).

I originally had a tag for this one that said, "if you don't get this then you're an asshole". I probably should have left that in, seems people like a good controversy more than they like common sense.
In my book, fair and equitable means innocent until proven guilty and paying for the products and services you consume.

Trayvon Martin
Zimmerman was not arrested because at the time of the event local law enforcement didn’t have evidence to dispute Mr. Zimmerman’s account of the events. Seeing this is a society where you are innocent until proven guilty, I think its best you save your accusation of injustice until the justice system has been given a chance to work. For whatever its worth, it appears very likely that Zimmerman will be prosecuted for the event. The Justice Department, FBI and Florida Department of Law Enforcement are now all involved in the case.

Oral Contraception
Let me phrase this debate another way; what if I was convinced massage it the key to healthy living? I suppose in your twisted view of fairness I should have my massage paid for just like a woman should have her birth control paid for via the healthcare law. There is a better and fairer solution; people should pay for the products and services they choose to use. If I want a healthcare policy that pays for massage and birth control, I should be free to make that choice. However, it certainly doesn’t sound very fair to force me to pay for somebody else’s massage and birth control.
Hey Johnny, thanks for stopping in. Love your comment, LOVE IT!!!

Here's the thing, Johnny, regarding Zimmerman. You really need to read up on and understand the use of deadly force, particularly in the state in which the alleged offense occurred. Try this on for size:
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Here's the real salient piece of that:
"Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force. "

He shot an unarmed teenager. He used deadly force when it is not apparent that deadly force was warranted, he has a history of reporting suspicious African Americans to 911, and he disregarded the suggestion of the dispatcher to not engage the "suspect" and allow police to handle it. Really, are you honestly going to suggest that he not be charged in this case? There appears to be more than sufficient evidence (some circumstantial, to be sure, but that is acceptable in forming a prima facie case) to warrant at the very least an arrest.

Regarding the oral contraceptive issue, your argument is a straw-man. The point is, it is not a question of "you paying for someone else's" use of a product, but a question of what insurance companies should and should not cover. Birth control is covered by a wide variety of insurance plans - and the reasons for NOT covering it CANNOT be religious ideology because insurance covers more than just the devout - it is meant to cover ALL policyholders regardless of religious beliefs. If you don't WANT contraception, you don't have to GET contraception. Just like if you don't WANT heart medication, you don't have to GET it but the insurance company still has to COVER it. Insurance coverage is not about CONSUMPTION. Geez, your insurance plan probably pays for smoking cessation programs - do you smoke? Are you looking to quit? They also cover a whole host of things including pre-natal care - do YOU need that? Yet you're PAYING for it, using your twisted logic.

You guys keep missing the huge point that oral contraceptives, like many medications, are used to treat a variety of issues that have NOTHING TO DO WITH CONCEPTION.

Please, stop watching Fox News and listening to talking heads and do some actual research. It will help you become knowledgeable about topics.
Oh, and one other thing regarding the whole "presumption of innocence" thing:

You are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. However, in order to GET to that court, you still need to be arrested for something. Now, I'm not advocating arresting anyone accused of ANY crime, any time. But in this particular case, where you have an armed person confronting an unarmed person when that confrontation was completely unnecessary and totally avoidable (the police had been notified and were en route) - yeah, I have a problem with that and expect the armed assailant to be arrested.
When the public safety is in question it is best to err on the side of caution and erring on the side of caution would be investigating this alleged crime, not simply taking the armed man's word for it that he was "defending himself", particularly when the deadly force guidelines clearly show that it was not in all likelyhood warranted in this situation.
Trayvon Martin
I agree, he should have been arrested on the spot but that wouldn’t change the fact Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. The alleged crime is being investigated by three Government agencies. This is a pointless debate, save your cries of injustice until after the legal system has been given a chance.

Oral Contraception
You stated that the point of the debate boils down to “a question of what insurance companies should and should not cover”. The definitions of fair and equitable make no mention of insurance companies and what they should and should not cover. I have no interest in debating Obamacare with a devout liberal; I was just making the point that conservatives have a different point of view as it relates to healthcare insurance. That doesn’t make us unfair or inequitable people, nor am I accusing liberals of being such.

Oh and by the way, you should look up what a “straw man” is; as you are clearly confused. You see, I represented my own position, which also happens to be the position of conservatives. If you are still confused, listen to any speech by Obama and you will hear ample references to straw men.
"This is a pointless debate, save your cries of injustice until after the legal system has been given a chance. "

Seriously - you don't think the simple fact that Zimmerman was not even arrested is an "injustice"? The fact is, Johnny, the legal system needs to work from the beginning. How does one trust the law enforcement of Sanford (which includes the AG's office) when the police won't arrest? It never should have gotten to the point where federal agencies had to be brought in on potential civil rights violations. THAT is a HUGE problem.

And dude, I think *you* need to really look up the definition of "straw man" when you attempt to equate your "belief" about massage to professionally prescribed medications to treat illnesses. And you might want to check your insurance plan - under certain conditions, massage may in fact be partially or fully covered. I'll re-iterate since you seem to have a little trouble:
Oral contraception is a medication that is covered by some insurers but not all. The basis for NOT covering it is clearly religious, which is a violation of MY first amendment rights not to be unduly influenced by YOUR (not you specifically, unless you'd like to own it in which case be my guest) religion. Medical care is supposedly something we should all expect to receive equitably. Give me a damn good reason why a medication such as oral contraception should not be included in medical plans. Anything at all that isn't based on religious indoctrination.

Anything.

And dude - I'm not a liberal in the sense you use that word. My political leanings are more centered than far-left. Health care reform is a dire need in this country regardless of how I may or may not feel about our president (and for the record I do not agree with many things he has done/has not done). The plan our President (yes - he's YOURS too, just like Bush was mine for eight long years) has provided does not do what I would have liked, nor did it accomplish things in the manner I would have liked. But it's a damn sight better than your proposal.

Oh - sorry. You didn't *have* one. My bad.
Agree with you....including your responses to the fevered one (but consider Candace's remarks concerning getting hooked into discussions with such).
"Give me a damn good reason why a medication such as oral contraception should not be included in medical plans."

Dude, to specifically answer your question: Birth control coverage costs $3,000 (see Fluke testimony). Seeing that we live in a world of limited financial resources, a better use of our hard earned money is to buy it out-of-pocket from Target for $10 a month.

Dude, Obamacare makes a bad situation (rising healthcare costs) worse. If given the choice between high healthcare costs and higher healthcare costs, I choose the former. But help is on the way, thank you Paul Ryan for giving us a way out.

Dude, if you were truly centered in your political beliefs you would read the linked article, and then talk to me about why birth control is in a bill about healthcare insurance.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204136404577210730406555906
"Dude, to specifically answer your question: Birth control coverage costs $3,000 (see Fluke testimony). Seeing that we live in a world of limited financial resources, a better use of our hard earned money is to buy it out-of-pocket from Target for $10 a month. "

Using that logic, why do we bother treating cancer? It's so damned expensive and in most cases the patient will die anyway. Or why should we cover smoking cessation programs? Let people buy their OWN nicotine-withdrawal medicine.

"Obamacare makes a bad situation (rising healthcare costs) worse. "

Really? By taking HMOs and insurance companies mostly out of the mix (with the insurance, it will in effect homogenize coverage so that if you go to another state, you'll still get the same coverage), how is it going to make things worse? By regulating health care costs? By equalizing health care services?

Funny how most health care professionals seem to be behind the Health Care Reform Act (not Obamacare as you and the all the far-right want to label it - hell, can we just label the economic collapse as Bushonomics in that case?).

"Dude, if you were truly centered in your political beliefs you would read the linked article, and then talk to me about why birth control is in a bill about healthcare insurance."

Well that link gives me a "content unavailable" - but even if it didn't, I don't need to read the article to answer you, I answered that question twice now I think:
"You guys keep missing the huge point that oral contraceptives, like many medications, are used to treat a variety of issues that have NOTHING TO DO WITH CONCEPTION."

The simple fact that it is used to treat medical conditions that have nothing to do with pregnancy means that it should be covered. Just like all the other medications I mentioned previously.

Johnny, you're kinda slow today - have you got allergies or something?

C'mon - PLEASE tell me you can do better.
Myriad - thanks. For both. :-D
I love comments even they confuse me.
You love the dictionary. I may share . . .
The book
`
A Theory of Justice - by John Rawls -
You know . . . He was from Harvard.
He changes lives with his kindness.
`
The Law of The People

Collected Paper

Political Liberalism
`
I am not a lawyer.
Manmade laws?
Nature fascinates.
`
I may re-browse:
`
Revised edition:

A Theory of Justice
`
`
a editor
blushing as he
gazes at 'pussy willow'
`
Springtime Willow Tree Blooms.
Maybe the Salon editor is a botanist.
He ate too many 'Dairy Queen' Cones.
`
I am not sure.
Something else?
Maybe he ate eel,
mule, sow, piglet,
and need some:
`
Nice
Pamper
Diapers
?
I behave
I love fair
Thank you
`
I visit farmers.
They smile too.
They no attorney.
`
Yes! Commonsense!
I fool with a GED? OY!
They Ruin all they touch!

Hamartia
Matanoi

Greek for Ruined life
Greek for Botany life
I's hope we have fun.
I love comments even they confuse me.
You love the dictionary. I may share . . .
The book
`
A Theory of Justice - by John Rawls -
You know . . . He was from Harvard.
He changes lives with his kindness.
`
The Law of The People

Collected Paper

Political Liberalism
`
I am not a lawyer.
Manmade laws?
Nature fascinates.
`
I may re-browse:
`
Revised edition:

A Theory of Justice
`
`
a editor
blushing as he
gazes at 'pussy willow'
`
Springtime Willow Tree Blooms.
Maybe the Salon editor is a botanist.
He ate too many 'Dairy Queen' Cones.
`
I am not sure.
Something else?
Maybe he ate eel,
mule, sow, piglet,
and need some:
`
Nice
Pamper
Diapers
?
I behave
I love fair
Thank you
`
I visit farmers.
They smile too.
They no attorney.
`
Yes! Commonsense!
I fool with a GED? OY!
They Ruin all they touch!

Hamartia
Matanoi

Greek for Ruined life
Greek for Botany life
I's hope we have fun.
&
&
This may be stuck.
It declared too stinky?
No, Art - not stinky.

Brilliant. :-D
I don't know . . .
I chuckle often here . . .
I see beauty and spontaneous . . .
I sense we are participants. Grand.
It's wondrous and human. Magnificence.
We are all suffering and frail. Humans.
You were a . . .

`
Flash bolt.
Thunder.
You know.
`
I gotta wander off.
But, we must try.
Suffering yield:
`
a part/human
a mysterious
a sense that
we best Be
tending to
our 'Core'
inner heart
a essence
a Place
a Calm
Beyond
Words.
But, we
have to
Speak
'our'
collective
Insights
or we
Wither
like the
old gourd
a potshard
a empty old
a vain fool
that's to
Weep
`
Observe
Imagine
Be honest
Be caring
Courageous.
Thanks `gin.
Ay humbled.
`
or
we fall flat
&
no
can
get
it
up
?
'it'
shush
okay
hush
annoy
"Johnny, you're kinda slow today"

quattospeaks, it's not only today, but ever since he joined OS. As you pointed out, we can add to the long list of topics Fever is ignorant about the one related to how insurance works.