Republicans have been primarily the corporate party. You might think that someone who represents big business would understand the premise that when hiring someone to run a business, you try to hire an individual who will work toward success of that business rather than working to see it fail. With this in mind, why do Republicans/Conservatives apply exactly the opposite approach when electing governmental representatives? They elect people who are opposed to government to supposedly make government succeed.
I was discussing political differences with a co-worker a couple nights ago, who denies being “a Republican” and instead claims to be, at various times, either “a Conservative” or “an Independent” depending on which classification he thinks will strengthen his argument at that moment (I’ve noticed that many Republican supporters are refusing to call themselves Republicans these days). He articulated the old, worn-out Republican-Conservative propaganda line that “Government can’t manage ANYTHING efficiently”.
Of course, any such supposition requires an explanation of how one defines “efficiency” within the circumstantial context it is used, based on objectives and goals, but knowing such refinement of crucial points would be beyond his capability, I opted to forego that distinction. In retrospect, raising that distinction might have led to less frustration, but …
I, instead, told him there are plenty of examples of efficient government management. In response, as an example to support his position he presented, among other things like the equally worn-out examples of the U.S. Postal Service and Social Security, the Environmental Protection Agency. He posed the question, “What does the EPA do, anyway?” He then followed immediately with, “Why do we need it? It doesn’t do anything.”
I offered the quick answer, “They protect us from environmentally destructive practices that poison us or harm us in other ways.” He argued that they fail to protect us. I acknowledged that they have had failures, but pointed out that those failures were not the result of any inherent agency problems but rather a result of corporate lobbyists’ and his right-wing Republican friends’ efforts to gut the agency’s authority. He took that as an admission on my part that the agency does not do what it is supposed to do, and said, “If it doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do, we should get rid of it.” (Hopefully, the irrationality of his conclusion need not be explained.)
At that point a particular question became too obvious to avoid asking, so I asked, “Do you want to drink poisoned water and breathe toxic air?” I followed with, “If you do, just go buy a tank of poisoned water to drink and a tank of toxic air to breathe so I don’t have to be poisoned with you?”
He said he didn’t want to be poisoned either, but reiterated his view that we don’t need the EPA. I asked him if he believed that corporations don’t poison the environment and he admitted he did not disbelieve they do. I asked him why, then, did he think we don’t need the EPA. He said, “Because it doesn’t do anything.”
So I asked him what we should do to protect ourselves from a polluted, toxic environment. His answer was, “Replace the EPA with something that works.” I asked him what we might replace it with that would not also be neutralized by the same forces that currently neutralize the EPA. He said, “I don’t know, but we don’t need the EPA.”
His argument follows this construct:
- We need to get rid of the EPA because it fails in protecting us.
- It fails because the entities engaging in environmentally destructive practices that poison us succeed in neutralizing the EPA by lobbying the representatives he supports in government.
- We need protection from environmentally destructive practices that poison us.
- We can protect ourselves from environmentally destructive practices that poison us by replacing the EPA with something that works.
- He doesn’t know of another agency format with which we could replace the EPA that would not suffer the same neutralizing effects from opposing forces as does the EPA.
- We need to get rid of the EPA because it fails in protecting us.
His conclusion is a non sequitur and is typical right-wing circular reasoning; “It is true because I say it.” He has no supporting premise for his argument, he is introduced to logical and factual evidence refuting his position, but is incapable of changing his opinion.

During the same conversation, expressing his view that the nature of the left-wing is dictatorial, he raised a more recent controversy making the rounds on right-wing talk shows; the banning of incandescent light bulbs. I had heard this talking point one night on one of the right-wing radio talk shows I listen to at work on nights when I have the mental and emotional strength to tolerate their consistent misrepresentations of the truth and the frustration I feel when listening to them.
My co-worker said, “The government is telling us what kind of light bulbs we can buy, now.” I explained this was not true; the legislation to which he referred merely outlines lumens per watt of energy consumption and I can go to the store and buy any kind of light bulb I want, including incandescent. He said, “No, you can’t; they aren’t being made anymore. It’s against the law to make them.” I told him he was wrong and our conversation ended shortly thereafter.
Later, I sent him an email including quotes directly from the legislation supporting my argument that we can still buy incandescent bulbs, but that they are now more energy-efficient. Because I used a Web page from the Media Matters Web site, he wrote back (I cut-and-pasted his email response):
“Oh yea, media matters, one of the most leftist liberal miss-information organizations you could find. But my talking point is/was that the manufactures can’t produce incandescent lights, not that we can’t buy them. Which is true. They are forced by the Gestapo federal government to meet certain regulations.”
He presents yet another fine example of the typical Republican-leaning right-wing mentality. He argued explicitly that we can’t “buy” incandescent bulbs, but then denies it. He then continues to wrongly argue that manufacturers can’t produce them, despite direct evidence from the wording of the legislation that refutes his position.
It is truly fascinating to engage with human beings who are so completely incapable of anything remotely resembling logical arguments or conclusions. Sometimes it is entertaining and other times it is just plainly depressing; it is always frustrating. But when you realize that people who think like this are actually making decisions in government, decisions that affect all of us and the overall well-being of the nation, it becomes much more; it is a menace, a peril that seemingly has no remedy.


Salon.com
Comments
I know more idiot liberals because I spend a lot more time talking to liberals and barely know any conservatives.
It's a pity that strength of opinion is uncorrelated with the strength of an argument.
I hope you pointed out that we should get rid of the army, since they haven't managed to win any war in the predicted time. I think it was two weeks to bring the light of democracy to Iraq. Replace the defense department with something that works!
Thanks for reading and commenting.
I like your example of the military as a comeback argument and will probably use it at some point, so thanks for that. I also know some dingy liberals with whom I sometimes have disagreements, but where I live, liberals are hard to come by. My own personal experience, though, suggests that liberals do, as a general rule, appreciate facts and logic to a much higher degree than those who fall into the "conservative" camps.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Certainly, misrepresenting "facts" is seen in all camps at various times. After all, the best lies contain some small element of truth.
To be fair, there are some conservatives I know who try to be reasonable…and are willing to see many of the points you, I and others on the progressive side advocate—but just like us, they are stubborn in thinking their side makes the better case.
I am convinced many of these guys want the same thing I do…a better America in which to live and a better planet on which to live. They just think the conservatives have the proper path to those goals…and that the liberal agenda is a bunch of shit.
Some of their arguments, as with you friend, are so far out one has to wonder how they got there.
When that happens, my mind goes to a couple of scenes from the movie, The Longest Day. In two scenes very close to each other, a German general and an American Colonel each say variations on, “Sometimes I wonder which side God is on.”
If the EPA is really so bad (which it isn't), then figure out what is wrong with it and fix it, like you would do with a leaky faucet. Trouble is, very powerful forces don't want to fix it, and they don't want to replace it with something better, either.
There are also costs to all governmental interventions, although the benefits may or may not outweigh them, to the extent that they are measurable. Some things are worth doing that one cannot say were worth doing beforehand, which is the role of vision in life.
One wonders if on a cost-benefit analysis anything really inspirational or eternal would ever get done; I doubt it.
Of course, some of them may be not worthwhile for other reasons, political mainly, even if they are more efficient, the light bulb example being perhaps an interesting example.
Some people really resent being "told what to do," which sometimes they need to be, since as you say, if not told to do so, they would poison the drinking water. Economically speaking, since lighting in households is not trivial as a source of electric demand, it may be the case that providing regulatory incentives that because of network externalities amount to close to a dicktat in practice do reduce electric demand that are not only environmentally efficient, but also economically efficient.
There is a second order issue which might be larger than the first order effect however, which is alienating your co-worker, whom objects to such a thing, even if under an alternative scenario, in which prices of electricity reflected full social cost, which they often do not because of enviornmental externalities, he would adopt an ugly looking lightbulb on purely economic grounds.
People are funny about such things, not purely rational.
That is an argument for thinking through is a governmental regulatory policy really likely to be totally efficient if one policy that can make sense in cost-benefit analysis considered narrowly would not be efficient if it undermined political support for broder objectives.
Then again, we all have to live in the same country, and so we also cannot in fact do what the Libertarians would have you believe in extreme instances, and "do what we want," although some of this is also more fundamental value committments that alas don't lend themselves to compromise at all very well, alas.
Both these men voted for W twice, and both claim to have come to regret those votes -- so they say. I say so they say, because their error has not convinced either to think any more deeply about issues. Rather, their vote, is -- as it is with most Americans I'm afraid -- simply a matter of an R or a D.
I asked my banker friend if he had ever bothered to look at Bush's resume, and he sheepishly admitted he hadn't. I asked if he ever hired anyone at his bank without looking at that person's resume. Of course not, he replied. I then showed him Bush' resume and asked what position he'd hire him for at his bank, and he replied none. So I asked, how could you vote twice for a man as President that you wouldn't hire to work in your bank? No response.
As I commented elsewhere today, I'm in favor of a test for political literacy as a requirement for voting. That would certainly depress turnout -- and I suspect a number of Teapartians would be in for a big surprise -- particularly those who think the Founding Fathers ended slavery or that Paul Revere's ride was sponsored by the NRA.
Thanks for stopping by.
I’ve encountered “conservatives” with whom I thought I was having a reasonable discussion, and who even acknowledged good points when I made them. I’m hard-pressed to recall, though, any of them who actually admitted being wrong about something.
Take the co-worker I present in this essay; he repeatedly insists that communism is little more than what Stalin did and equates socialism with that type of government, as well. I have actually had him look up definitions of things like economic systems versus governmental systems and thought he had grasped those distinctions. But then a week later, he’s right back to the same rhetoric.
I know he’ll never understand the realities behind what he believes. It isn’t just a matter of opinion; he just refuses factual evidence that proves him wrong.
Thanks for stopping by.
The logic within your comment is so simple that I found it truly astounding to confront his refusal to recognize his own self-contradictory perspective regarding his EPA stance.
“We need it, but we should get rid of it.”
WTF???!!!
;-)
Also, it’s often difficult for all of us to avoid the demonizing of “the other”. I constantly find myself making a conscious effort, trying to catch myself when I think I may be doing exactly that. I’ve gotten better at it as I’ve gotten older, but it’s an ongoing process.
Every once in a while one of them will surprise me.'
Don't know that the lucidity I see on those occasions lasts longer than the conversation...and I suspect you are correct that the reversion to the absurd takes place almost immediately.
We are in a mess. We may be about to prove that the experiment upon which we are engaged...freedom, domocracy, rule of law, the people greatly influencing how they are governed...
...is a failure.
I hope it is not...and I'm sure you and most of the others discussing here hope that same way.
We may never find out...and it may take future historians to assess where our generation led the experiment.
Glad you stopped by.
You raise the question of value by saying some things are worth doing that didn’t seem worth doing beforehand.
“Worth” is determined by intended goals; unfortunately, too many determine worth solely by dollar costs, which are not the only, nor often the best, criteria to use.
I agree with your assessment: “One wonders if on a cost-benefit analysis anything really inspirational or eternal would ever get done; I doubt it.”
I find the entire light bulb issue somewhat petty and especially propagandistic. As you say, there is no doubt that reducing energy consumption will occur through more efficient light bulbs, so one has to really wonder about the mental stability of people who make such a huge deal out of this.
I’m not sure I get your point about “alienating” my co-worker; I don’t think there is much there to alienate, since he is a willfully blind ideologue that places little value on factual information and merely believes what he thinks regardless of any and all evidence against it. I’m reminded of a saying I ran across recently: “You don’t have to believe everything you think.”
Glad to see you stop by.
Your story of your encounter with your banker friend sounds pretty much like my regular encounters with this co-worker. I have to agree fully with your assessment of “willful blindness”. There can simply be no question about that.
Regarding the idea of voting according to whether there is a D or R after the candidate’s name, I am now using that to look for another candidate altogether. I prefer not to support either party at this point.
Your reference to Bush’s resume is something I’ve used on many occasions myself. When his supporters would mention his business background, I would point out what a dismal failure he was as a businessman and ask them why that qualified him to be president. Again, it seemed to be an illogical argument on their part, but …
Regarding the idea of political literacy exams for voters, I might also suggest one for candidates, which might even be more useful.
I think it has already been proved a failure. Of course, such a premise requires qualification of goals and objectives. Regarding the Founders’ intentions, I seriously doubt that they were all on the same page where objectives and goals were concerned, so an accurate assessment would probably mean that this experiment is a success in some people’s minds, and a failure in other people’s minds, like me.
There seem to be two sets of national values; those which receive lip-service, and those that are actually applied.
Tom makes a good point about so many people having no knowledge about the Founders and instead vomit out whatever sounds good at a particular moment, even if it contradicts something that individual has stated previously. And this self-contradiction seems to have become a national value.
This is nuts. Someone could make the same observation about public safety and fire regulations, and it would be just as wrong. And the solution--"The EPA doesn't work, so let's replace it with something that does"--would seem to be... a better EPA. That's a perfectly fine idea, but the conservative/Republican goal now seems to be to get rid of the organization entirely. There's no consistency. I feel your frustration.
Happy to see you comment here again.
“This is nuts.” No kidding!
I was literally momentarily stunned by his argument; “We need it, but we should get rid of it.” My circuits were scrambled for a moment.
I thought Malusinka, above, had a great counter to this insanity;
“…get rid of the army, since they haven't managed to win any war in the predicted time. […] Replace the defense department with something that works!”
I have never seen American politics be this insane, with perhaps the exception of Clinton’s impeachment. But one might view that as the first step in the progression of the current insanity. Then we had the totally bizarre Supreme Court election of Dubya, and …
The illogical and irrational mindset exhibited by my co-worker seems to be becoming more and more prevalent among right-wingers.
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Norwonk,
Welcome and thanks for commenting. “Faith-based” is definitely part of the problem. This particular individual is also religious. It is fascinating how this sort of mentality follows a particular sort of pattern of neuropathways, most of which I suspect are formed during the first 5 or 6 years of brain development. How some manage to escape it is perhaps even more fascinating.
I can assure you the scenario's you so elequantly espouse are not unique to America. Probably not unique to our two countries either.
Some of the worst examples I encounter are within the religions.... It's positively frustrating.
Warm Regards
Yes, religions ...
...indoctrination, willful blindness, propaganda, etc. It's all the same in operational terms, only the details differ.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting.