Rob St. Amant

Rob St. Amant
Birthday
December 31
Bio
My roots are in San Francisco and later Baltimore, where I went to high school and college. I stayed on the move, living for a while in Texas, several years in a small town in Germany, and then several more in Massachusetts, working on a Ph.D. in computer science. I'm now a professor at North Carolina State University, in Raleigh. My book, Computing for Ordinary Mortals, will appear this fall. www.amazon.com/author/robertstamant

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MAY 15, 2010 12:21PM

"But I don't *like* spam!"

Rate: 26 Flag

A few years ago, before the advent of the federal Do Not Call list, I met an earnest young person who worked as a telemarketer, in the comments section of a political blog.  I'll call this person Mary Din (not her real name). She'd had no luck finding a job that was a match for her background and skills, so she'd joined a telemarketing company. The conversation didn't touch on the ethics or propriety of telemarketing, but rather civility: one of the most distasteful aspect of her job was that some people were rude, even abusive, to her when she called, occasionally so much so that it brought her to tears.

"Maybe you were interrupting something important."

"But I couldn't know that," said Mary.

"There are Do No Call lists you could have looked at," I said. (And at the time there were such, in some states.)

"Yes, but I don't have control over which numbers get called. The company makes that decision."

"Why do you work for a company that cares so little about the people they bother?"

"I'm just trying to make a living," said Mary. "Some people do want to talk to me. The others can just ask me not to call again. Without being rude--I'm a human being."

"But someone might be receiving hundreds of calls a year from people just like you. Doesn't that make a difference? Personally, though I'm always polite on the phone, I think it's fine for others to be rude, if they like. The more awful a job being a telemarketer is, the fewer people will do it."

Predictably, some others in the discussion thought I was an asshole in taking this hard line. Perhaps I was. And perhaps I am. But I believe that telemarketers are breaking an implicit social contract, one that involves taking the time to figure out whether you're going to bother someone or not before you do it. That's rude. It's reasonable (though a personal decision) to be rude in response.


Spam is a term first applied in the computer world to the practice of disrupting an online forum with a flood of text [thanks to MarkinKentuckiana for a correction here], and soon grew to encompass unsolicited commercial bulk email. It's an interesting outgrowth of the economics of the Internet. Unlike regular postal mail, in which the sender bears the cost of sending physical letters and package, email is just another way to transfer data between computers over the Internet, and that data transfer cost is shared by everyone (to a first approximation). The upshot is that it's very, very cheap to send mail from an account on one computer to millions of accounts on other computers. It's been estimated that some 97% of email messages are unsolicited mail. Basically, spam.

Of course, most of us don't have to deal with this deluge directly. We have spam filters on our email accounts that do a very good job of eliminating unwanted messages. We're still paying to receive this messages, either directly in the cost of downloading information from the Internet or indirectly in the price of an unlimited data connection. 

The World Wide Web has changed what we think of as spam, to some extent. Now we apply the term to blog posts and comments that have the purpose of selling product to readers who may or may not be interested. Usually not. But that doesn't matter to those who produce the spam. It only takes one person out of millions to respond for them to find the activity profitable. As with my telemarketing example, this is a social problem: Everyone's free to ignore spam, but as long as there are a few people who don't, even a tiny number, the activities of spammers will continue to bother everyone.


Should we care about spam on Open Salon? I can deal with it, as an individual, just by ignoring it. Some might be more bothered by it. But there are broader social aspects we might consider.

The first is a variation on the broken windows concept in law enforcement. The idea is that maintaining a building by fixing broken windows will limit the activities of vandals, squatters, and gangs who might make the problem worse. This idea isn't without criticism, but it's at least plausible: A neighborhood with decaying buildings simply doesn't look as inviting to visitors. In an online environment, spam is commonly seen as vandalism, and new visitors to a Web site, seeing a great deal of it, may be less likely to stay.

A second aspect is related to the perception of available resources. A few years ago I lived in an apartment in Venice, California, with an attached garage. Our car was regularly broken into by the homeless people who slept in the garage overnight. "Can't you fix the lock on the garage door?" I asked the manager. (I wasn't the only one, of course.) "We'll get to that, but it will be expensive," he'd say. A year went by... but that's not the important thing. The important thing is that my judgment of the apartment as a reasonable place to live was influenced by the resources the apartment manager was willing to put into upkeep. Similarly, when I visit a Web site and see a great deal of spam, I wonder about how long it will stay in business, if there are no resources to devote to writing or installing widely available mechanisms for spam prevention, basic maintenance. 


These are just a few general thoughts about spam, as I go off to make my lunch. Bon appetit

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There are a lot of posts about spam today. On one of them someone pointed out that Huff Post isn't inundated with spam. Poor Salon is not in good shape economically and OS seems to be left on auto-pilot...but there is going to be a dramatic drop-off in content if this continues - a person is hard-put to get a post on the feed when it's wall-to-wall spam...
I like the conversation you had with the telemarketer. I could ignore the spam here is we didn't rely so heavily on the feeds. It's the feed-clogging that is most aggravating!
I tend to think of spam as way more invasive than telemarketers. I, for one, am on the Do Not Call list and find when a call slips through, it's because of something I OPTED-IN for and kind of my own fault.

Spam, on the other hand, especially here, is unwanted by all. And that some bright person in the ether figured out how to write the code to set up accounts until the sun flames out, posting spam 24/7, makes me pretty pissed off. I know how these things work. A little counter programming would go a long way.

In the meantime, I flag ever new post I see. I'm doing for my community.
The problem with the Internet is that we can't answer the door in our underwear when the solicitor shows up, like in the old days.
Spam is an evolving term, however the first use was not email it was usenet news groups. The most infamous at the time - the one that truly defined spam - was the Cantor and Siegel "green card" spam.

It was from a lawyer offering his services to help aliens get green cards and it went to almost every news group then in existence. They were completely unapologetic about it and went on to write a book telling others how to take advantage of this "free" advertising medium.
Thanks for the comments! I guess we're all in the same boat.

Thanks for the correction, Mark. I'll update my post. I was going from memory, and somehow I'd forgotten Cantor and Seigel. That ruffled a lot of feathers.
Hope the lunch was.... not spam Rob.

It is an invasion of privacy for certain. Is it the cost of everything we get for 'free?' OS for example? I have no clue, just know that the newest drug scampspam is off the hook.
When it comes to telemarketers, I hess I'm one of the rude ones. I've never been one who is a slave to my phone. If I get a call when I don't feel like talking, or maybe it's someone I just don't feel like talking to at the moment. Either way, I'll ignore the phone.

It I answer when a telemarketer calls, I cut them off quickly with "Please don't call me again." and hang up. No need for further discussion. They're getting no where with me anyway so the kindest thing I can do is not waste their time.

It's MY phone and MY personal time upon which they are intruding. I owe a rude intruder NOTHING.

Email spam really upsets some folks but my delete key is just so simple to use that it doesn't really bother me. It's also less intrusive since I'm checking my email on my schedule, not having whatever else I might be doing interrupted by it.

Comment spam on OS is a whole other animal. I delete those quickly but it irritates the hell out of me.
Excellent piece! I also wrote something on this issue about a month or two ago. This problem seems to be getting worsed. Like you indicated, the OS image (already not very high) will take a hit if this goes on.

I like Mishima666's suggestion to pay a nominal fee to open an account. That would solve this problem (I think).

Written from Europe...
PS As for canned spam, it gets a bum rap. I have a recipe for Hawaiian spam rolls that are to die for!
Good post Rob.

Concerning telemarketing -- I'm even pissed off that charitable organizations and political groups can call, even though I'm on the no-call list. I pay for a phone for MY convenience, not for the convenience of these other organizations. I'd be happy to take their calls if they wanted to pay me $5 per call. Fortunately, I can use caller ID to screen out most of the calls.

Interestingly, the most persistent caller is Willamette University, the school that I graduated from. Willamette is the most persistent organization I've ever seen. I've gotten calls from them almost every day of the week for months. I have friends who have moved without leaving forwarding addresses, and within a few months they end up receiving Willamette's quarterly newsletter. I don't know if there are any American prisoners of war still in Southeast Asia, but I do know that if any of them are Willamette grads, they are getting the quarterly newsletter.

Concerning the spam on OS -- what OS has to offer the members -- the ones who create the content for the site -- is visibility and exposure so that members can get out their message and interact with other members through ratings and comments.

But when spam clogs the feeds, the posts of legitimate members fly through in minutes and are barely noticed. So you write a post, and nobody reads it. At one point last night almost 60 percent of the "most recent" posts were spam.

If you want to write posts that no one will read, there are lots of places that can happen; you don't need OS for that. Thus, when the spam reaches a critical mass on OS, the very reason for the existence of OS vanishes. My guess is that spammers have discovered that OS is an easy mark, and so we should expect more of the same.

We're now in the third day of a spam attack, and we've heard nothing from the people running OS. Par for the course, unfortunately.
While I'm typing this a bikini-clad babe cavorts in the add above the comment box hawking Special K. Sex and Special K -- sounds like the purveyors of the original "convenience food" (non-food actually) haven't forgotten that company was founded by a dirty old man W.K. Kellogg.

As for this "I'm just trying to make a living," that line is first cousin to "I was just following orders".

I once shouted at a telemarketer "Why don't you get a real job?!" and he replied "What would you consider a real job?" My belated answer: One where you don't lie to people for money.

Or as I put it in one of my songs:

"I'm not sayin' Indians never lied
They just never figured out a way
To make a livin' at it"
I've always been a little puzzled that the original setup for OS didn't include some common and rudimentary safeguards to prevent spam of the sort that is on the rampage here. It wouldn't have cost much as far as I can tell. Sadly, it does suggest that the upkeep of the place is a fairly low priority for Salon Media Group. I am sure you (and many others) remember that during the beta phase--when many of these wrinkles were supposed to be ironed out--there were numerous offers from talented programmers to fix the site for free. Obviously they didn't take anyone up on the offer.

Free writing they will take but not free computer help? Somebody needs their head examined. Maybe someone here would offer counseling for free!
Great discussion here. I too have heard that Salaon Media is not in good shape and we, unfortunately are just the bastard step-child.
preventive maintenance doesn't seem to apply to spam here
Thanks for the additional comments. I just have a few additional thoughts:

I understand that fried spam is comfort food in some cuisines, including one associated with my ethnic background. Being a couple of generations from my immigrant grandparents, though, I never acquired the taste.

I agree that free computer help would have been a good thing back in the early days; it might be too late right now.

Finally, Tom, you've raised an issue that was going through my mind as well, though I didn't write it down: the so-called dirty hands problem in philosophy. The canonical examples have to do with torture, but we see it in play in telemarketing and spamming as well.
I am always polite to telemarketers. When they call I thank them for calling and ask if they can hold for a second while I let the dog out. I always wonder how much time they waste waiting for my return, before they hang up.

{[R]}
Wow. I LOVE commentary like this.
I'm going to have spam, spam, spam, spam, baked blog and spam. Even with the Do Not Call list, because of telemarketers, we rarely answer the phone in the evening.
yeah, not a big fan of it here either
Good post, Rob. I like the "Broken windows" analogy and think it's spot-on.
Spam reminds me of a house with four or five cars on the lawn and on the street in various states of disrepair. Not good for morale. Not good for the neighborhood. Clogs up the space.
Agree with your measured take and hope the situation clears up.
all this talk of feed and spam... my tummy is rumbling.
Hey, Rob :)
I tried telemarketing once - I needed work - I couldn't do it. I made one phone call, in which I was told they were off to their daughter's wedding. That was it. I quit then and there.
Hi, all! I forgot to make an important point I started out thinking about: You'll notice that in most of the real-world analogies I've given, the best way to resolve the problems is by top-down imposition of authority. The federal government imposes a law concerning unsolicited telephone calls. The people who own the building in a neighborhood arrange for repairs and maintenance. The people who run a Web site or other online forum institute some automated ways to deal with online vandalism. Everything might be handled bottom-up, by the actions of individuals, but it would be much more costly in time and effort, overall.
When I lived in Belgium - and it is like this through much of Europe - Internet users paid by the megabyte. I had a "plan" with so many megs per month and if I went over I had to go down to the Belgacom office to buy more. This makes the spam more criminal.

To me, all the spam on OS all looks the same. Like there is just one a-hole out there somewhere fomenting a sea of crap. If ever a politician should take an issue under his or her wing, the spam issue would be well advised.
I have a confession --- I worked for a telemarketer once in my life, not as a service rep, but I ran the dialer and scripter computer, dialing thousands of numbers around the country, so the TSRs could try and sell Burpee seeds and other such things to the customers who we bought from places like First USA and Bank One and other wonderful banking institutions.

But the pay paid for my wedding to the most wonderful woman, so I don't feel THAT bad!! :)

Rated.(doubt this comment will go through so....)
It'd nice if I could mire quickly delete spam comments right from my page. Windows are more likely to be fixed if it's easy.
Just had a look at the "recent posts" feed. Never saw anything like it. Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, bacon and spam.

I'm always rude to telemarketers, as I hope to drive people away from the business. Also, they deserve it. A ringing phone is pretty damn intrusive in any case, and if you're a stranger trying to sell me crap, you multiply that by a thousand.