Deeply saddened.

I think that what happens in Palestine is a mutual tragedy, because neither side seems to get the point of view of the other at all.

Actually, to be fair, I think that the Palestinians and Arabs in general have taken a bad bet on the Israelis, which is that they can exhaust them, and that they have the right to do so.
Do American Indians have a right to their land back?
Who knows such things? I will shoot any Pequot Indian trying to use a suicide bomb to get back his homeland, and sleep well, because I don't think there is any place on Earth where blood has not been spilled.
At the same time, I have never understood why the Israelis could not see the tragedy of the Palestinians, since the Jews spent so much time in exile, why not some empathy?

There needs to be an end to the killing. Sadly, a realistic solution seems as far away now as it has been for decades.

Thank you Don and nana for your comments. In many ways it's a complicated issue and yet, in other ways, it's pretty straightforward.

It is Kyle. Why there can't be some type of reasonable negotioation is beyond me. Humans have the capacity to work things like this out. (Although, you may have to break some eggs to make the omlette, ergo, get rid of the satanic element.)

Thanks for posting the pictures. Hard to look at, but its important for people to see the true results of war. It ain't no video game. Too often, religion is used to justify all kinds of horrible acts.

That's the thing Alaska, the media tends to sanitize combat. People need to see just how bad war is.

My heart breaks and bleeds for those innocents, but I am not convinced that Israel is so barbaric as to wantonly attack innocents. Is it your belief that these attacks are unprovoked?

In the war in Vietnam, one of the common occurrences that caused so much controversy was when the enemy knowingly chose civilians to shield themselves or chose civilian positions to attack from like schools.

Israel has a proven history of continually trying to accommodate Palestine. Palestine is a culture that degrades women as property and raises and teaches their children that to strap bombs on themselves is noble and heroic act. I fear they are reaping what they sow.

P.S. According to your observation, I would like to hear your opinion. Is Netanyahu a good guy Jew or a bad guy Zionist?

The Abrahamic Covenent was to ALL Jews. This will throw a monkey wrench into your theology. Even those pesky zionists are God's chosen people.

Israel is that barbaric Philos. As to the Abrahamic covenant...it is an unconditional covenant, to wit.. "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites,

and from Genesis 12:1-3 The Lord had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 “I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you; I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Also, from Deuteronomy 30:1-10 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Philos, the Jews are God's chosen people but as we see in my post citation of John 8: 42-45 the Zionists are of the devil and not of God. They will not be saved.

Personalitywise I like Benjamin Netanyahu. He is a Zionist and I believe he, like John McCain, is pissed off at the world. Though in Bibis case, I do not think he ever got over the loss of his brother Yonatan who, as you know, was killed in the famous Entebbe raid.

Now, as for the Palestinians, the rest of the arab world basically pays lip service to them and uses them as political pawns, but really does not give a rats ass about them. The Palestenian people do not help themselves when they breed like rabbits in what is basically a large ghetto similar to what the Nazis did to the Jews so that when you have military action against the Palestenians, you are likely to incur many casualties of women and children. This does not justify the needless Zionist atrocities against them however.

Your comments are always appreciated Philos.

Rwnj, I love these types of discussions. Please don’t take my criticisms personally. In the arena of ideas, it is easy to get offended when we truly believe what we think. When our ideas are challenged it is easy to take things personally. I value these types of discussions because they broaden my scope and understanding.

Now, I have to disagree with you on a couple of points. There is NO viable support for your definition and doctrine of Zionism in scripture. My understanding of Zionism is this.: “Zionism is a movement that seeks a spiritual and national restoration of Israel, the land of the Jewish people. Specifically, Zionists believe that the Jews have a divine right to the real estate it formerly possessed during the reign of King Solomon, based on the promises that God made to Abraham in the book of Genesis” I could have a different understanding or definition than you.

If you are a modern day Jew or an evangelical Christian who believes in the classical biblical understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant and the “grafting” in of the church as spoken of by Paul in Romans 11:17 – 24, then you would fit the description of a Zionist. I do.

Where you connect the dots between New Testament Pharisees and Netanyahu eludes me. I know we have much in common, but I find your attacks on Israel and your assertion that “Israel is that barbaric” to be really sort of weird. This I not meant to be an insult. Really. The only Christian groups I have ever heard of that reference Zionists are fringe Christian groups like white supremacists?

Your use of the scripture John 8:42-45 is in my opinion an unintentional exaggerated misuse of that scripture. I agree the Pharisees with whom Jesus was addressing were of their father the devil, but that is not a position exclusively held by them. ALL sinners/unbelievers are of their father the devil. We are constantly admonished throughout the NT to avoid tradition, unnecessary religious behavior and legalistic bondage which is what was defined by the leaven of Pharisees and the Sadducees.

Most protestant/evangelical theologians agree, The Leaven of the Pharisees is hypocrisy and The Leaven of the Sadducees is legalism. I do not believe that Netanyahu is “like John McCain, is pissed off at the world.” That, to me, is another opinion that I can’t wrap my mind around. To each his own. I see Netanyahu as a very real and potent defender of Israel’s survival interests.

I am sure you will disagree that Israel has bent over backwards, for a generation, to accommodate the needs of the Palestinian people. How can you support a people who live with an ideology that makes them sworn to the destruction of another people, any people??? To hell with the fact that they are sworn to the destruction of God’s chosen people. That, in a secular world, shouldn’t even enter the picture, yet the Palestinians bring their situation upon themselves. They teach hate, they breed hate, they sow hate and they reap destruction. Long live Israel and may the U.S. never turn her back on Israel. When the Palestinians decide they want to assimilate into a civil world that includes co-existence with Jews, they will become blessed like the rest of the world.

One l last point. You posted these scriptures. Genesis 12:1 – 3 says “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Belief in this scripture defines one as a Zionist.

I believe that Israel is not blessed because the U.S. supports her. I believe the U.S. is blessed because we support Israel.

Philos, I too enjoy these type of discussions, so do not worry about pissing me off or offending me. There are an estimated 6.5 billion people on the Earth and the two commonalities we all have are a butthole and an opinion---and I realize that I'm a butthole with an opinion. Also, the longer I live and the more I learn, I realize the less I know. I have mt beliefs and values, but I'm open to learning new facts that may change a longheld belief I've had.

As to your latest reply, I stand by my earlier statement. You cannot be a child of the devil and a child of God. Additionally, my definition of a Zionist is a bit different than yours in that the Zionist is selfish and evil and is willing to hide behind the covenential agreement God made (I am no biblical scholar) with the Jews to further their own evil and selfish interests. You consider Zionists as Jews, whereas I think of them as JINOS (Jews in name only). They deserve no covenential protection and should and will ultimately be exterminated by God.

There was a quote attributed to Netanyahu back in 2001 that made me think he was a Zionist, but I can't locate it. However, here are a few quotes by Zionists (as I define them) that are noteworthy:

"Our race is the master race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet, and serve us as slaves."

Menachem Begin (Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983), excerpt from LEHI (the terrorist Stern Gang) training pamphlet, circa 1946, shortly before the organization began a series of murders of unarmed opponents of the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel.

and

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."

Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, after Jew, Dr. Barch Kappel Goldstein (physician), entered the the Cave of the Patriarchs Mosque during prayers and killed 29 Muslims and wounded another 125. (S of S, p. 225), 1991

and

"Most Jews do not like to admit it, but our god is Lucifer."

Ashkenazi Jew, Harold Rosenthal, aide to Senator Jacob Javits, fellow Ashkenazi Jew, 1976

Philos, the above quoted Jews are not Gods children. (but we still must support Israel)

Although you and I both agree that those quotes are despicable, the facts remain that it was God who ordained the covenant. God considers ALL Jews to be recipients and covenant partners whether they fulfill there part of the agreement or not. The reality is, In the Christian tradition, we understand that the Jews have rejected the Messiah. They walk in darkness and have turned their hearts away from God for 2500+ years.

Do I agree that there are wicked Jews? Yes. Do I think that God would ever break His side of the agreement? Never.

Here is something to consider. A friend of mine is a missionary in northern Iraq. He has been able to befriend and gain the confidence of the local Kurdish government and military leadership there and spends his time winning the confidence of the people there by rebuilding the Kurdish villages where Hussein killed all of the men and leaders.

He has found that their religion is a mixture of Zionism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Islam. Iraq is the second most mentioned place in the bible and I was shocked at all of the old testament history that happened in that region. What is really interesting is that the Sunnis in the south call the Kurds "Israel". That really broadened my perspective on who God considers “people of the covenant.”

I try to be careful as to whom I make broad sweeping judgments about. Nicodemus was a Pharisee. I am not convinced that the definition you mentioned is as specific as I feel comfortable with using to define my eschatology. I believe that the term “God’s children” does not apply to this particular argument.

Getting back to the original post, I am still convinced that the Palestinians are the masters of their own destiny. They could assimilate as free Muslims into Israeli society with more rights there than they would have in any other Muslim nation.

P.S. Here's another punchline on that one about the butthole and opinions. Everybody has both and they all stink.

Philos Quote: "They walk in darkness and have turned their hearts away from God for 2500+ years."

How true. Think about it, every day for forty years, while wandering in the desert, God performs a miracle by providing the Jews manna. So, for a two generation time span, Jews see daily miracles from God and yet, they can't wait to carve idols.

While I am not quite on the same page with you Philos, I am within a couple of pages. Thanks again for the discussion.

Oh, and interesting observation by your friend regarding the Kurds and Sunnis.

Yes. One see's scripture and prophecy from unique perspectives when we lose our western or better yet, our temporal bias. I only hope to see things from His perspective.

Sorry I got here so late. It's a fact, for every one Israeli killed by the Gazans before and after Operation Cast Lead, 100 Palestinians were killed by the Israelis. And the UN Goldstone Report clearly lays the blame on the Israelis for their continuing cruel and inhumane treatment of the Gazans.

Even as a Gentile, I am a strong supporter of J Street PAC.

ONL quote: "And the UN Goldstone Report clearly lays the blame on the Israelis for their continuing cruel and inhumane treatment of the Gazans."

Almost forgot about that report ONL. It is a distrubing read, to say the least.

Giving to the J Street PAC supports those who inadvertently support those who desire the destruction of Israel. If Hamas ever once held out an olive branch to Israel, it would be met with humility.