The other day, in a post about Lesbian Mothers written by Jonathan Wolfman there was a "discussion of gay & lesbian marriage. (http://open.salon.com/blog/jlw1/2012/01/09/lesbian_moms_and_the_welfare_of_children)
During this discussion, a commenter alluded to the old standby rhetoric of the opponents to gay marriage =
It is better for the children to be part of a family that contained one man and one woman.
I responded that I wanted to know “Why” this was so. I wanted to know exactly HOW having a person who just happened to have “dangly bits” somehow made it better for a child as opposed to two nurturing and loving women.
His retort was basically that (and I quote), “A good father in the home teaches a boy how to be a good man…”.
Of course, never being one to allow vaguely worded homophobic and misogynistic allusions to stand unchallenged :rolleyes:, I asked him to be SPECIFIC!
What specifically, is it that a man provides children that a women (or two women) can not? (I’m still standing here listening to the crickets as I await his response, BTW).
Anyways, that got me thinking along those lines: What things of major importance CAN a man do that a woman CAN’T equally as well? (The “things of major importance” was to eliminate “things of minor importance” like writing your name in the snow when you pee outside [hopefully] or how to properly scratch your balls while playing baseball).
Now there are a BUNCH of things that I know women do better than men, such as:
Women can multitask better than men. Studies have shown that women use more parts of their brains when given a wide variety of verbal and spatial tasks as opposed to men. As a result women can cook dinner, watch children, plan for meetings the following day, and assist with homework all at the same time.
Women live longer than men. Generally, men are more aggressive than women due to the testosterone hormone. They die more often of violent deaths that are believed to be more risky such as suicide, homicide, vehicle accidents, drowning, and cancer. Testosterone is believed to raise the harmful cholesterol levels in men increasing risks for heart disease and stroke. As women age and go through menopause, often times they are put on a hormone supplement of estrogen. This increases the good cholesterol and decreases chances of heart disease and stroke. Women have an evolutionary advantage over men to live a long life.
Women are happier than men. A happiness study conducted by The Nielson Company revealed that men's happiness is often based on economic conditions. Considering the economic crisis we are currently in, the happiness study does not have positive implications for men. The study was completed in fifty-one countries on 28,153 participants. Women were found to equate happiness with relationships. Women were also revealed to be more optimistic about their future, scoring higher than men on predictions of their happiness in the next six months. www.nielsen.com
Women are better at identifying emotion than men. Women are better than men at distinguishing between emotions, especially fear and disgust, and have a keener sense for processing auditory, visual and audiovisual emotions. This is according to a study published in Neuropsychologia. The study found that women were better at identifying facial and multisensory expressions. The study indicated that genetics plays a role although it suggested that females are wired to quickly and accurately decode or detect stress in preverbal infants or threatening signals from other adults to enhance their chances at survival.
Women are better at eating healthy foods than men. Women are more likely to choose food to benefit their overall health and/or select foods for a specific health purpose (digestive health). Women are also more likely to be satisfied with their health status, but are more concerned about weight and likely to be making changes to diet to be more healthy. www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/126045.php
Women remember appearances of other people better than men. Women have an advantage when it comes to remembering things like physical features, clothing and posture of other people. The researchers in this study reported they did not know for sure why women had this advantage but the results parallel with other studies that show women are better than men with interpersonal sensitivity. We use appearance cues to categorize people and to help us understand them. This helps us to interact better with others. Focusing on others' appearance is an important part of our everyday interactions. http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/gendiff.htm
Women manage stress better than men. When men are faced with a stressful situation they typically take the "fight or flight" approach. This is a theory that indicates when men are confronted with a stressful situation they respond with aggressive behavior or withdraw. Women, on the contrary, respond to stressful situations by protecting and nurturing their young and by seeking social contact or support from others (specifically other females). This theory is known as the "tend-and-befriend" response. Men are more likely to respond by developing certain stress-related disorders, including hypertension, aggressive behavior or abuse of alcohol/drugs. www.upmc.com/HEALTHATOZ/Pages/HealthLibrary.aspx?chunkiid=14248 Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.
Women drive better than men. Well this reverses a social myth – that women are bad drivers. Carnegie Mellon University researchers found after analyzing a lot of traffic data in 2007 that men are 77% more likely to die in a car accident than women, keeping the miles driven constant.
Women cooperate better than men. A study by Rolf Kuemmerli and other researchers at Edinburgh and Lausanne Universities indicated that women cooperate better than men. In the research, based on games played by 100 Swiss students, women cooperated with others almost twice as much as men did.
Women perform better than men in timed tests. A study by Vanderbilt University researchers in 2006 found that women score better in timed intelligence tests than men. The study, published in the May-June issue of the journal Intelligence, didn’t find much difference in un-timed tests, which meant women had a quicker mind.
Women perceive their relationships better than men. Talk about relationships and most men will frown. Now you know why – they know so little about their relationships! A Hebrew University of Jerusalem study, after surveying 97 couples in the United States, found that women are more perceptive than men in describing their relationships. The study, published in ScienceDaily, reported that women were much more accurate in describing the perception of their partners than men.
Women communicate better than men. Louann Brizendine, neuro-pyschiatrist at the University of California at San Francisco, found in a study that women can process 20000 words a day compared to men’s 7000 words (Louann Brizendine,The Female Brain, Morgan Road Books). This difference, as per Brizendine’s study, is more biological than social, which starts as early as the fetal stage. Additionally, women have approximately 11% more brain cells in the planum temporale area of the brain. This area assists with perceiving and processing language. Women can speak at a speed of 250 words a minute and have 11% more neurons in the area of the brain devoted to emotions and memory. Women are genetically inclined from birth to be better communicators than men.
Women learn better than men. That is why girls get better grades in school on an average than boys in many parts of the world. Dr Simone Kruger of Edge Hill University, UK, found in her research based on remote learners that women learners were more successful in sharing ideas and experiences with each other, and hence learnt more efficiently than men.
Women invest better than men. A study by the National Association of Investors Corporation (NAIC) for the University of California found that women earn on an average 1.4% more than men in their share portfolios.
Do these things make for a better parent? Yeah, pretty much!
We are more perceptive, safer, smarter, better educated, more caring, more nurturing and more financially savvy than the average man. We relate better to our kids and we communicate better with them. (I’m not even going to GO into the studies that show that the children of lesbians suffer MUCH less abuse and are VASTLY happier and better adjusted than children in conventional one man and one woman families. ;) )
What I AM going to do is keep an open mind and let the men (and some of the women too, I suppose) tell me EXACTLY "Why" a man makes for a better parenting group, strictly by virtue of his genitals being different.
So bring it, dudes! Just remember to BE SPECIFIC so that your “facts” can be refuted! (by our superior intellect *ahem*).
References / Credits: http://flatrockfred.com/images/pictures/cowboys/annie-oakley.jpg; http://socyberty.com/sociology/10-things-women-do-better-than-men/#ixzz1jHcHnsNb ; http://voices.yahoo.com/women-vs-men-ten-things-women-better-than-men-4713742.html; http://images.wikia.com/wonderwoman/images/5/58/WonderWomanLyndaCarter.jpg
TIP:
Enter the amount, and click "Tip" to submit!
sagemerlin
Daniel Geery
Eljekar
Man Talk Now
Naithom
OS Readers' Picks
Salon.com
Comments
I'm just sick of hearing the "one man/one woman is better" without any justification. If they can specifically tell me "How" then it ain't so!
i got lucky with my dad, but it has nothing to do with him being a man. it has to do with him being a great human being. i've known and seen plenty of dad's who aren't the greatest parents in the world because they are too busy being "a man" and not being a decent person or parent.
On all other points, I agree with you Amy.
Hell, this isn't even a dis-agreement, more like an afterthought. Damn.
P.S.
The joke is that all of the self-IDd experts KNEW, in a matter of moments, that the link to the study I provided, the study itself, was based on shoddy methodology, despite the fact that it was, as you pointed out, peer-reviewed and despite the fact that none of these armchair statisticians could possibly have spent more than half an hour looking at the data....and here was a ton of it.
:)
I have to object, however, to the healthy eating stuff. This mean that if I spent time at your place as a guest, no Ring Dings and BBQ Chips? That would be just awful.
R.
Lezlie
The kids are happy, healthy, secure and (*GASP*) know who their biological parents are even if it's not always one of their biological parents who answers the call. Then again, I have an ODD household by most standards.
HowEVer, a leSBiaN cOUpLE is nOT shOWn to bE an oPtiMaL aRrANGeManT eItHEr and tHaT wAs thE mAin poInT of coN=comMEnTeRs iN jOnnIE wOLFy"s pOsT.
2 qUEstIOnS fOUr U
wHY do mALEs deSIGn tHE cLOset=FULL oF sTRap=oNs tHaT u oWN?
whY do U uSE tHe teRM "mOM" inSTeAD oF "pAREnT" in uR OS bIO?
Why are you pitting women against men? You make sweeping generalizations that ALL women are better than ALL men in many areas and you're basically stating men can't be good parents. By doing so, you're making a case that two men in a same-sex relationship can't be good parents and we both know this isn't true.
I'd make the argument that two parents are better than one if they're both committed to raising their children, and it doesn't matter what their sex is. People with different strengths and weaknesses complement each other. My husband was "better" than I am in several of the areas you mention but that didn't make him a better parent, necessarily. It did make for a better balance, though. I have two sons and I can already see that they'll be good parents because they exhibit many of the qualities you claim women have a lock on. And let's face it, sometimes boys and girls want a father the same way they want a mother if they don't have one. That doesn't mean no one's doing a good job; it's just the way it is. There are things my kids, especially my younger two, are missing out on from not having a dad and they sense it because they see what other kids do with their dads, things I either can't do or have no interest in. It doesn't mean they're going to grow up stunted or damaged but it would have made a difference to them.
Not all women are good parents, just as not all men are good parents, regardless of their sexual orientation. It is hard work and it's not always easy even with two people.
~snags the pics, forgets the rest, heads into the thorn bushes for some ME time~
Maybe it's time for everyone to hold their tongues before they wag them right out of their heads.
Family is made of love, not body parts!
Excellent post Amy! :)
But seriously folks, it doesn't matter. A child should have a man and a woman in some part of their lives. An uncle, an aunt, a cousin, etc....just so they have some influence (and they can decide on their own), how that gender acts and reacts. We all need influences, good, bad, and indifferent to become a whole person.
First of all, I'm not saying that men can't be GREAT parents. What I'm saying is that the ones that are GREAT are not that way by virtue of their genitalia. They are by virtue of being good, kind, intelligent, nurturing human beings.
Secondly, several of y'all have said that the OPTIMUM parent grouping includes a man, yet you still haven't given me an specifics. WHY is that the best of the best? What does a man provide that an equally caring, intelligent woman can not? I'm serious here, BTW, because the answer to that gets to the root of the issue.
But back to your basic point: I am entirely with you on that. Male/female; male/male; female/female…all can be good parents and can be bad parents. We give tests to people to allow them to drive a car…but anyone who can master the art of fucking can be a parent. Seems to me that we have our priorities screwed up.
Great strides have been made; more are in the wings—and times they are a’changin! We will never go back to the old days, Rick Santorum and such notwithstanding.
― William Shakespeare
My response has been there since yesterday, along with some references to books and papers dealing with gender differences in child rearing.
Safe Bet: "What I AM going to do is keep an open mind and let the men (and some of the women too, I suppose) tell me EXACTLY "Why" a man makes for a better parenting group, strictly by virtue of his genitals being different."
It's not that men make better parents, but that each gender, mother and father, brings a different perspective and set of life experiences to parenting. It has nothing to do with who eats better or who drives better. It's not any single gender, but the combination of the two.
Ok, kids who are around happy, well-adjusted, loving people have happy, well-adjusted, loving childhoods - no matter who the people are raising them and how many people are in that picture. As a mom who was raising a son by herself, I can tell you - my kid is a million times healthier and happier than he would have been raised partially by his biological father. But, my husband seriously rocks as a dad. I just can't see these sweeping generalizations as helping anyone's case - some men are good fathers, some are not - just as some women are good mothers and some are not.
I can say though that it is becoming increasingly not an issue considering the astronomical (and growing) rate of births to single mothers, divorce rate and other factors - the vast majority of children are raised by women, and that usually being just one woman.
In my particular situation, my kids are so lucky to have their father as well as me because he can add so much to their lives and a uniquely different perspective, but it has little to do with him having a penis, but rather because of just who he is. I can tell you though - potty training a boy is actually pretty challenging without the right parts to demonstrate.
So far only two people have give specific reasons so I'll address those first:
l'HB pointed out that on average men make more money. That's a valid point cuz they do. (Whether they SHOULD is a whole 'nother story!). That said, I don't think income earning potential has a bearing on what it takes to be an "optimal" parent. IMO, that requires nothing more & nothing less than love, communication and the knowledge to impart.
As for the "men have bigger feet". = yes they DO and they usually stink more too! (except for Nana who I hear wears tiny little princess slippers with sweet smelling little sashays on the toes!)
NOW, for the REST of "youse"! :D
Firstly, it has NEVER been my belief that women, by virtue of THEIR gender, are automatically superior parents. Sure, I think as a group, we exhibit a lot of traits that help us be that way, BUT SO DO A LOT OF MEN!
My point was to bring out the point that ANY grouping (or single parent) can be a SUPERIOR parenting group.
My additional point is that a superior/optimal parent/parental group does not NECESSARY need to include a man. I've STILL yet to see any specific arguments to the contrary.
@ Mishima: I just read your comments on the other post and you are STILL spouting the same vague things.
Please be SPECIFIC and tell me what " it"is that a man is the only gender on earth that can teach "it" to a child. And then tell me SPECIFICALLY what are those things that ONLY can be provided to a child by "one man/one woman" unions.
There are quite a few statistics posted on here that I disagree with on a varying scale from slight disagreement, to complete and utter disagreement. I will not get into it because I really do not wish to debate the subject, and also, it’s not the subject matter I wish to discuss.
I am in agreement that lesbians and gays should be allowed to legally get married, and that they shouldn’t be discriminated against as parents.
Parenting is what I wish to discuss. Not whether men or women are better at it, just parenting in general, and the effect it has on the children.
While I believe that a child will do well with a single loving parent, I believe that two parents (of any sex) are better than one. Simply because it offers more opportunities for the child to experience a difference of opinions and views, and it demonstrates how a loving couple should act together in a healthy relationship.
When my wife and I met, she was a single parent, and doing an amazing job. Now that we are together, I think that the kid is doing even better.
Now on to the difference between men and women as parents, and why we should stay away from statistics and generalizations.
I am a male (obviously), and I happen to think I am an amazing parent. My wife (obviously female), is an amazing parent. This has nothing to do with our sex. In both of our experiences, we have seen a spectrum of good and bad parenting from both sexes. In my personal experience, I have seen a father doing horrible things such as beating, starving, and even killing their own child. I have also seen this same behavior from a mother as well.
I was previously married, and she had a little girl. She easily could have won an award for worst mother of the year. She would drink alcohol and pass out on the couch while watching the then one year old baby. She would also leave packages of cigarettes lying around in reach of the toddler. One occasion I had to take the baby to the hospital when I came home from work to find the child eating a cigarette while my ex-wife was passed out on the couch. The icing on the cake is when she was tired of watching the child, so she put the then two year old in the back yard alone with her sister’s pet wolf. The child was mauled and almost lost her arm in the ordeal. (At this point we were separated and I was fighting tooth and nail to get custody away from this horrible woman.)
There’s Andrea Yates, the woman who drowned all five of her children. And then there’s Shaquan Duley, from South Carolina, who suffocated her two year old and 18 month old sons, then drove into a river trying to make it seem as if they had drowned. Her reasoning? She just “wanted to be free.” And let’s not forget about Lashanda Armstrong of Newburgh, NY who drove her minivan into the Hudson river, killing three of her four children and herself.
I’ve seen a meth addict put her infant in a microwave (and turn it on) because the baby was crying too loudly and ruining her “high.”
So, while you quote statistics, there is always the exception to the rule. There is always a demographic that is never looked at during a statistical study.
Am I saying men make better parents than women? No. Am I saying that there needs to be a man as a parent for a child to grow up well adjusted? No. Two lesbians are perfectly capable of raising a well-adjusted child, just as two gay men are as well. What I am saying is this; look at the individual parent, on a person to person basis.
That’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it.
I'm not a sociologist or psychologist, and if you want to understand the specifics of the differences of what each gender brings to child rearing, I would suggest that you read a book that talks about that. I mentioned one book on the other post. Another one is "Partnership Parenting: How Men and Women Parent Differently--Why It Helps Your Kids and Can Strengthen Your Marriage," written by a married couple, an M.D. and Ph.D.
Another is "The Role of the Father in Child Development," that "brings together contributions from international experts on each subject to provide a thorough and current summary of the state of fatherhood across cultures, classes, economic systems, and family formations."
And another is "Fathering and Child Outcomes," by Erini Flouri -- "Over the last twenty years it has become recognized that fathers play a crucial role in child development and subsequent adult status and behaviour. This book presents the state-of-the-art on fathering and its determinants. Based on original research into the effects that different styles of fathering can have on children, it explores the long and short terms outcomes of involved fathering on different domains of children's lives, including academic achievement, mental health, socio-economic status, adolescent relationships and delinquency. . . . This book by a distinguished Oxford scholar presents the scientific case for the importance of father involvement for child development and adjustment in later life. It should be read by all professionals, researchers, and policy makers concerned with child health, education and welfare." Dr Alan Carr, Director of the Doctoral Programme in Clinical Psychology, University College Dublin
Another is "Fatherneed: Why Father Care is as Essential as Mother Care for Your Child" -- "This is a well-researched book about the role of fathers. Pruett (psychiatry, Yale Medical Sch.), a well-known columnist and the author of The Nurturing Father, looks at fathers in various family situations--intact families where both parents work, intact families where fathers are primary caretakers, families in which the father is a single parent, families in which mothers have primary custody--and among a variety of cultures. His conclusions emphasize the importance of fathers in the growth of their children. He does not, however, minimize the mother's role; Pruett believes that fathers bring different assets to childrearing than mothers and feels that the mother's relationship with her children is improved by the active role of the father. Extensive notes document recent research."
Or you might try out "Involved Fathering and Men's Adult Development: Provisional Balances," by Rob Palkovitz, Professor of Human Development and Family Studies at the University of Delaware.
If you want the specifics, based on actual research, I suggest that you check out one or more of these volumes.
But I think you may be asking the wrong question. It's not a matter of activity but of ontology -- not what men and women can do, but what they are as persons, and what fathers and mothers represent to children.
For example, I think people would agree that the experience of rearing a son is different from rearing a daughter. But one would be hard-pressed to identify many non-trivial things that a son could "do" that a daughter couldn't possibly "do."
-Pawed-
Anyway what I tried to say was, I had a Dad and a Mom and I still grew up to be GAY! I also know quite a few two Dad households as well as two Mom households. Their children all seem quite well adjusted.
"The joke is that all of the self-IDd experts KNEW, in a matter of moments, that the link to the study I provided, the study itself, was based on shoddy methodology, despite the fact that it was, as you pointed out, peer-reviewed and despite the fact that none of these armchair statisticians could possibly have spent more than half an hour looking at the data....and here was a ton of it. "
Again, JW is trying to win an argument in a typical way. I am an expert - and several of the others who replied are equally qualified - and we pointed out the weaknesses of the study which are self evident. I am not arguing with the conclusions, merely that the study was so weak that the conclusions are unwarranted. The 'peer-reviewed' issue speaks for itself and was answered before. The data don't need to be reviewed because they were clearly badly derived, like using bad rulers or weights that are off.