I Knew Johnny Carson. Mr O'Brien, You're No Johnny Carson.
"Never continue in a job you don't enjoy. If you're happy in what you're doing, you'll like yourself, you'll have inner peace. And if you have that, you will have had more success than you could possibly have imagined." Johnny Carson
Late Night TV was created by Jack Parr and Steve Allen, but it was Johnny Carson who turned it into an art form. He was an icon of not one, but two generations of viewers. If you're a Boomer like me, you grew up sneaking peeks, then watching Johnny Carson with your parents. As the years passed you watched him on your own.
Conan O'Brien? Not a chance.
For decades, The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson was a part of our lives. He defined and reflected popular culture and the world around us. He took that responsibility seriously, and gave it all he had.
Conan O'Brien? Not a clue.
I was lucky enough to meet Johnny several times. My uncle was Ed McMahon's business manager. Whenever I was in LA, I'd call Ed's special assistant and she'd arrange tickets to the show.
Not just any tickets, but first row, directly in front of the star on the floor where Johnny stood to give his opening monologue.
The studio was much smaller than it appeared on TV. Johnny was larger than life -- and yet one of us.
Johnny's rapport with his vast audience was deep and personal. You sensed it at home, but you really felt the kinetic electricity in the studio.
Johnny played not only to the cameras but directly to the studio audience, especially those seated in that first row. He connected with us, smiled and winked as if to insiders. And that connection translated into intimacy with millions.
Conan O'Brien? Not even close.
Meeting Johnny in person he appeared more shy than aloof, but he was also courtly and warm. He had that twinkle in his eye and a solid likeablity factor that was one of the keys to his success.
Conan O'Brien, likeable? Only to other callow frat boys.
The real keys to Johnny's enduring success were a keen intellect, enormous curiosity and genuine wit. He wasn't just funny, he was clever and insightful and had the ability to think.
He thought beforehand in the careful crafting of every detail of his show -- and he could think on the fly. His ad libs were some of the best in the business.
Conan O'Brien? Not in the same league.
No matter how successful he became, Johnny retained a genuine aw shucks humility that made him seem so real, so approachable. We invited him into our homes, many of us watched him in bed. He often joked about that.
As children we begged to be allowed to see Johnny, and were only given that privilege if we had no school or were sick.
In fact there's a clip Johnny used to run on his anniversary shows that surely hit home with many of us. He was interviewing five-year-old Joey Lawrence and asked him if he had ever seen the show.
Watch what happened:
Nobody could do a 'take' better than Johnny. Hardly says a word and you're laughing anyway.
Johnny's equally pure, honest laughter at his own expense was one of his greatest gifts. You'd read about his personal life, all the divorces and stories of his aloofness and perfectionism. Then he'd make fun of those very stories, and thus of himself ... and you were in the palm of his hand.
Conan O'Brien? A cartoon replica... no, not even that.
“If life were fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead.” Johnny Carson
Johnny was one of the good guys. Unique. Special. And now gone. He gave us entertainment that resonated with intelligence, self-deprecation, honesty and genuine humor. His credo was unfailing devotion to brains and wit.
Johnny Carson's approach to humor was both subtle and broad, but it was never mean spirited or stupid. Because whatever his own failings and foibles, he was a kind, decent man. And never ever made fun of those naive, trusting or less gifted.
If you miss Johnny Carson, or never saw him, watch David Letterman. He's the real deal too. No matter the network or the name of the show, Letterman carries Johnny Carson's legacy faithfully and makes it come alive.
More than an acolyte, he manages to be all Carson was and more ... his own man with his own easy, witty, self-deprecating, intelligent style. He's today and he's ours.
Take Jay and Conan. Please.
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Max Rivlin-Nadler
drlaura2
Kristina Lakes
mhold
L in the Southeast
Jane Brogan
Salon.com
Comments
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Buffy, I'm with you. And I don't believe it's a generation thing. Conan's just a buffoon at any age.
Nobody yet, that I'm aware of, has been able to hold a candle to his legacy. Johnny Carson was a true one-of-a-kind. I wish he were still around.
I liked Johnny. I respected Johnny. You might even say I revere him.
If it wasn't for Johnny telling NBC that he no longer wanted to see his reruns on Saturday night, there would be no Saturday Night Live. If it wasn't for SNL, Conan might never have been plucked from its writing staff to host his own late night show. If he didn't have his own show after Jay Leno in which he proved to be innovative and ultimately likable, he may have never gotten this gig.
If it wasn't for SNL, we might be watching the Tonight Show with Shecky Green or Morey Amsterdam or (God forbid) Joan Rivers.
Johnny Carson is dead and so is his generation of comedians. Welcome to a new world. Get used to it - it just keeps getting newer and some would say, better.
Thumbed. I always loved Carson. He had the best guests, and he knew how to talk to people and how to treat people.
I have the DVD set and have made my own kids watch it. I remember his last show with Robin Williams and Bette Midler. Williams was the wrong selection, frankly, as he couldn't sit still and slow down enough to really allow for Carson to express himself. I remember being annoyed by that.
But I remember Midler singing his favorite song, set'em Joe, and him wiping tears away as she did it. The lyrics of that sang say a lot about Carson's own inner feelings, as well.
And it was also one of my father's favorite songs.
They're both on my iPod, back to back, in one of the play lists I use when I kayak late at night and under the stars .... it reminds me of those times in my father's lap watching Carson.
Back when life was simpler.
Caveman, indeed, Ms. Swift. Caveman, indeed. :)
I have a growing fondness for Craig Ferguson when I can stay up late enough. He, in my opinion, would have been a better choice to succeed Leno.
He's got the lamest band ever seen in late night, though. I can't believe he kept Andy Richter and Max. Sheesh...
Another thing; He'd better show up with some Black people in Southern California of all places or I'm through with the punk. I already watch very little on NBC, and I'll gladly add him to the no watch list.
I'd seen the joey lawrence clip before, but not Doc the pugilistic monkey! I was laughing till I cried here, my hand over my mouth, my hall-mates wondering what the hell is wrong.
Johnny is a part of my history, my family. That's why it's so funny. I Knew him. He Knew me.
Conan is just a) finding his way on a new show, and b) a host for different generation. Johnny Carson is gone, and his school of comedy (for better or for worse, depending on one's opinion) is dying out. People may say of Conan "He's no Johnny Carson!" And that's true. Conan O'Brien has never tried to be Johnny Carson. Conan's been Conan, and as Conan he has been one of the most influential voices in comedy for the last 15 years, between his own late night show, The Simpsons, and his time at SNL. Where comedians 20 years ago had Carson to thank for their start, today many can thank Conan O'Brien. Without Conan's support, the Upright Citizens Brigade wouldn't have had work and we'd have no Amy Poehler. Without his influence we wouldn't have Tina Fey. No Reno 911 or The State. No Mr. Show. Many of the best episodes of the Simpsons. After Johnny Carson stepped back and went mostly silent, Conan's was the voice that was heard among young people. He is the one we'll remember.
And really, as a watcher of Conan since the early days of his Late Night show, he takes self depreciating to a whole new level.
His first couple of shows were okay. Can't expect brilliance out of the gate. But I have faith he'll get there.
Couldn't be edited out.
Conan has no ability to ad lib, either. Rated.
He was a master of listening and also responding in the moment. He was quick and witty (funnier than many of his guests, even the comedians) but he also wanted his guests to shine, which is what I think is missing in newer generations of hosts for the most part. He was a gentleman, although he also had quite a snarky side that came out in his quips.
I once saw a show he did with some female star and she said that he was one of only 2 men she'd ever met who listened to anything you said as if it were the most fascinating thing in the world and you were the most fascinating person (the other was Cary Grant). I think that was his gift as a host. I don't see any other host doing that today - they all seem anxious to jump in and show how clever they are. I think it's a generational split, in more than entertainment, frankly. Listening is a lost art.
That said, I do enjoy Letterman in small doses. I absolutely can't stand Leno. Having to watch his show to me is torture - I can't do it even if I really want to see his guest. Conan's tended to be on too late for me to watch but have found him funny/clever when I did. But the only person I've seen be as witty and quick as Johnny is Stephen Colbert. He's wicked fast and funny with his guests. He's not exactly warm, though...!
Conan is not Johnny Carson. True. I don't think he, nor anyone else, claims that he is. But I think it's fair to say that Johnny Carson's legacy as a comedian, TV host and artist, is that he found a way to be open to people, to assume the best, to have good fun where it was possible, and not to impose his views. I didn't know him personally, but he had that air about him, it seems.
Conan may not be your taste. Or you may not be open to what he does. But if you read into his style, his work ethic, his preparation for his shows, his focus on the writing, and on the comedic timing, on the nature of the human connection and on the value of the live audience, are all evidence of his deep commitment to doing well and to providing a valuable experience for his audience.
I find it a little disturbing that, given that he is a comedian, and one of the brighter, more humble and more innovative out there, one of the few who rarely offends in any ugly way, that you would write such an unfounded attack on Conan O'Brien. I don't think it will undermine his ratings; that will be based on his performance. And I agree, Letterman is wonderful and incomparable.
But I think we owe it to OS to launch into scathing criticisms where there are grave crimes being committed, not necessarily because we "don't get" a comedian's humor. I think if you give him a chance, you'll see that Conan's silly gags (Carson had his, too, by the way) get a lot of airplay, but his overall humor is thoughtful and intelligent. He might even grow on you, if you get his tongue-in-cheek style.
Big thumb, Sally. You are so, so right.
Great piece, though.
Thanks for writing this, Sally: it's exactly how I have been feeling. Johnny was simply the best and still is.
Um, what?
I am also being scolded, told that Johnny Carson is dead and I should get over it and move on to new comedians. Beethoven is dead too, should I move on to Coldplay? WTF?
I'd also like to point out that I'm not an idiot, I do know Conan O'Brien is a Harvard grad and over 40... all the more reason IMHO he should do smarter comedy. On the other hand, we had a president from Yale and look how bright he wasn't.
Those who agree with me about the purity of Johnny Carson ..."gold standard" Emma is right... are sharing wonderful stories of wonderful memories. Geoff, loved yours, you are officially off the Caveman list. :)
Those who love Conan, good for you, glad you enjoy his work. I don't. And you're acting as though I've attacked the Church, or your mother. Hey, I'm entitled to my opinion, on my blog at that. Please don't call me names because you disagree.
Oh, btw, I meant to mention that I too like Craig Ferguson, who shows all signs of the kind of keen wit, sense of irony, intelligence and cleverness that I simply don't see in O'Brien and for sure not in Leno.
Oh, one more thing, boys and girls... even Conan likes RATINGS. :)
Judging O'Brien according to standards set by Carson is comparing apples and oranges. An unestablished comedian sharing Carson's style would be hard-pressed to find an audience in 2009, regardless of talent.
One could make an argument that our tastes suck, sure, but O'Brien serves his audience as well as Carson did.
I suspect, however, that Johnny grew into his role over time, and that his earliest shows were not as good as his later ones. We can't know, because the first couple of years of his tenure are not on tape. Those tapes were somehow destroyed or lost a long time ago.
Letterman is no Johnny, either, nor was Leno. But both of them have mellowed and don't have the rough edge they started with. Both of them show a great deal of humanity and respect when the guest they are interviewing is deserving of it. I suspect Conan will grow into this role, too. I hope so.
But...there will never be another Johnny.
Geoff, I knew what you meant, both Sinatra and Midler are on my iPod too and that song is also my husband's favorite. I also love Green Day and Dave Mathews and I don't need to list my iPod bona fides to ask Vac...
Have you looked at either of those vids? Or any others available on Carson? To put him in the same breath as the Partridge Family is worse than apples and oranges... it's steak and dog crap. Conan would tell you that himself. I still say we should all keep our eyes on Craig Ferguson.
Steve, everybody grows. But goodness, Conan's been around more than a while. Letterman hit the ground running on his show when Leno got The Tonight Show. His first show on CBS is a classic. Still, time will tell.
They were products that were viable in a time and a place different from our current setting.
Some of my favorite TV shows are The Office and Dexter but, regardless of the creativity or talent behind them, they only work in this time in this place. It's unlikely, had these shows found their way to air in the early 60s, that they would achieve acceptance or than anyone would have fond memories of them now.
Casablanca is my favorite film. If it had been produced today critics would decry its cheap sets and awkward stage acting. Instead, because of its place in our history and the context in which it was received, it's heralded as a classic to which few modern films can compare.
They don't make them like that anymore. They can't. And they shouldn't.
1. Carson
2. Letterman.
3. O'Brien
4. Ferguson
5. Leno
That said, and though I think Letterman is great, it's a little disingenuous to suggest that Letterman's humor has never been mean-spirited. It frequently has been quite (and at times deservedly) so. Give O'Brien a little time; he's young yet. Thankfully, like Letterman, he's not a show-bizzy hack like poor Leno, so he's already a bit ahead of the game.
Seriously, though. Conan is immature and childish so he should fit in just fine with the American mentality of the times. Hehehe. Oh, and great post Sally! You know I love ya!
Vac, you don't know me so I apologize for making you feel I was dismissing your point of view... that's not my way. I felt you were dismissing me and my POV. I still feel that regardless of your cogent argument (I love Dexter, it's brilliant), some things transcend generations. Johnny Carson was loved by three in his day. He was a first class comedian, a master of the talk show genre, had a clear sense of what worked and what didn't, plus he possessed a huge intellect and a wicked political mind. He, his style and his work would be just as popular if he lived in today's world. Letterman is, and he's the 21st century Carson. Fergusen too, to a degree.
David, I totally agree.
Nada, your list fits me to a tee. And yes, Letterman used to be angry and very mean-spirited and I stopped watching him. Then I watched his first show at CBS and was hooked by the new Dave. He's continued to mellow over the years.
Michael, at least I'm not claiming carnal knowledge of Johnny. Ahem. Maybe Buffy can... :)
Yes, with all these hosts it seems like an age thing, a generation thing to a degree, but Conan in his 40's is still playing to an audience in its 20's. I'm not a fossil, I laugh at anything funny. South Park when it's hot and Amy Poehler and Tina Fey, etc, etc. Conan just doesn't do it for me. Why can't it just be as simple as that?
Just shaking my head at all the "outrage" your little personal post has engendered here in comments. I never could watch Conan, whatever it is he does just is not something I find entertaining! Some folks seem to think PCness should extend to not criticizing their favorite comedian? WTF?
Joan, it's odd what pushes people's buttons, what's odder is that I didn't realize I was doing so.
Kelly, I'm shaking my head too. I aim to please with my busy little life stories and usually do. PCness about comedians? Who knows any more. WTF indeed.
Brie, acquired taste makes sense, that's why there are so many flavors. And for the record, I have tried. The man just doesn't connect with me. He's undeniably smart, so why don't we see that more? I guess that's my main problem. Thanks for helping me clarify.
Carson wasn't so nice is his earlier years but when his son was killed it profoundly changed him. He became in some ways less approachable but at the same time more human and forgiving. Who really knows what goes on inside?
I completely agree with Sally about Johnny -- there will never be another, partly because of his talent, and partly because we all remember listening to him from the faraway living room or our parents' bedroom, and what can compete with what that conjures up?
But I like Conan. He'll be fine. The young folk seem to like him. I enjoy him sometimes. I honestly never watched Leno; I'm at least curious about Conan. That's something! Maybe one of these days I'll stay up late enough to watch him!
I snuck Conan as a child, watched him with my parents summers home from college, watched him on my own as an adult. What Johnny Carson conjures for you, Conan conjures for some of us, is all.
I do doubt he'll have Carson's longevity. Something like that is so rare and was really special. And I think it will be unique.
Worship at the church of Carson if you like, no one's criticizing that :).
NOT Johnny Carson. Why the need to compare? This seems like a generational issue. For sure. Undeniable. Conan is quirky and hilarious, as is Letterman
Leno never made me laugh. So old school. Nice guy, but often I found him to be somewhat disrespectful to women -- even if he presented it in a comedic way. He was unfunny which is why he was replaced.
I am up for a difference of opinion, but it seems like these criticisms are coming from people who do not get his humor -- which is more current and less old school.
people.
Respectfully, this overall review of various hosts feels like a waste of time. Just don't watch. I cannot watch Leno, merely because I find him boring and out of touch.
I watched Conan for 5 mins last night. He plays to the camera like a 13-year-old boy in the basement with friends, making it up as he goes. Adam Sandler, fart-joke level humor. Funny by accident, when the writers give him a good line. No warmth, no connection.
But JC was the man. I have always thought Paul Simon's "Myth of Fingerprints" was Johnny, altogether. The former talk show host, who knows the myth intimately.
With Johnny we were all smooth fingers and shared hearts.
And any man who could make us appreciate, even like, professional dullard Orson Bean was a genius.
Conan isn't even very funny in my opinion.
I should say that I am too young for Johnny, and too busy to watch Conan so I have no basis for comparison. I do agree with other posters that Conan's comedy is "different," from Johnny's, although I'll go one step further and argue that the "Frat Boy" comedies are often deeply self-aware; in fact, they wouldn't be comedies if they were not self-aware; in fact, self-awareness is the main thrust of these comedies. Keep in mind that most all Adam Sandler movies are basic bildungsroman where the protagonist grows up and comes to realize what a Stupid Frat Boy he has been. Same for the Judd Apatow movies, and the Owen Wilson machine. They are all deeply aware of our infantilized culture and introduce characters who are forced, for whatever reason, to move beyond it.
Unfortunately I have not watched near enough Conan O'Brien to make a fully fleshed-out argument for or against him, but I would say that part of his schtick is that he plays an infantilized male and allows the audience to enjoy some laughs at his expense. I watched the first show and I am reminded of the Ford Taurus skit where he drives his old jalopy around LA. Sure, we got to laugh at his stupid car and stupid hair, but the joke basically was centered on the very real frustrations of a New Yorker coming to terms with the transition from NY to Los Angeles. The joke also played on our ideas of Los Angeles, plus our ideas of how Los Angeles should be-- from the boys with the caddies to the uptown girls walking their dogs in oversized sunglasses. To me, that's fairly sophisticated, even if the delivery is anything but.
"I watched the show and I loved it.
Conan's show utilizes a lot more sketch-based comedy and on location shorts which if you haven't noticed is more in line with where the internet has taken comedy in the past view years. I would be surprised if in ten years an audience would even sit through a thirty minute sitcom as the most talked about and viewed comedy online seems to be 1 to 5 min shorts i.e. Andy Sandberg's digital shorts which have salvaged SNL from being completely irrelevant to it's target demos.
I don't even think it will be a competition between Dave and Conan because they are so different, at the same time they are both very talented and I'm happy to watch either one.
Jay Leno was LAME. White bread, flyover, P.C. and worst of all a phony. To me he represents everything wrong with mainstream comedy. He did safe and cute comedy like "Jaywalking" which requires absolutely no creativity just point, shoot, and edit and we all get to laugh at the stupid people- which, was it just me or did that segment just make you embarrassed, ashamed and depressed?
I am biased for the Cone Zone but I think most people in their twenties probably are. His humor may come off as juvenile to some but that may be more of a reflection on the viewer than the host."
worldssmartestman
June 02, 2009 01:45 PM
As his late sentence indicates, he believes the humor taken may be more of a reflection on the viewer than the host. As David Decker also points out (on my blog), Conan has done a brilliant job at targeting his audience. So, at the end of the day, this may just be generational differences and perspectives. There aren't enough 20 somethings on this site to really tell. Great post Sally. (Rated yesterday).
http://open.salon.com/blog/bryan_johnson/2009/06/02/tv_tickled_to_death_with_conan_obrien
As excited as we were about Conan's debut, we eagerly awaited the great dumpfest we knew would happen after the first couple of nights. No callow frat boys here--both nerdy college professors in our forties, nutrified by the Simpsons (for twenty years) and Letterman (for nearly thirty). When Letterman appeared, first as a morning show, and then as a callow high school kid's alternative to Carson, he had to deal with the same comparisons you make between Carson and O'Brien: velcro suits, a man under a stage, etc. Letterman has become more like Carson, certainly, but he's hardly the same. Carson was never cranky, certainly never political, certainly never, as Letterman seems at times, hostile to the very form itself. I compare them all to narrators in novels. You can no more expect Conan to operate like Carson than a first person narrator operate like a limited omniscient third person narrator (which is precisely what Carson was like).
Perhaps it's that midwestern sensibility that both Carson and Letterman shared? I know that I always notice that.
Time to educate the "too young to have the intelligence to respect and AMERICAN HERO"!!
In MY generation and those older that I am, Bob Hope was an AMERICAN HERO.
Ho DARE you insult this American icon??!!
Leno is boring, O'brien is worse.
However, there are MANY MANY Americans who see Bob hope as exactly what I stated he was.
What an ognorant, imperious statement YOU made.
If I sound angry, it is because I CHOOSE to feel anger at someone who knows NOTHING of him electing to insult him.
BTW-The first one to make late night TV great was Ernie Kovacks.
Although I do agree that Conan is no Johnny Carson, he is hardly the slug you make him out to be. And with the possible exception of David Letterman, nobody compares to Carson.
When Conan first got the late late night gig I tried to watch. He was stilted, hardly animated at all. It was only after seeing his show taped in person (you aren't the only one who has "ins" to see these shows - I just happened to earn mine rather than inherit it) did I realize that Conan was not the the wooden creature shown on TV that first year.
Prior to starting the show, he came out and did a fantastic "Burning Love" with a very unsuspecting member of the audience to get the crowd into the show. He then did his best to make Cheryl Tiegs seem interesting - he was not given the greatest guests at that time... not even any cute 5-year olds.
Since that time he has grown, taken over his show, and become a much better entertainer. I believe he may even reach a wider audience than "callow frat boys" (After reading your article I suspect any humor that does not match your specific taste falls into that category).
So, we will agree that there was and will only be one Johnny Carson. After that, not much will be agreed upon. I hope you don't think of me as a "callow frat boy" now.
And when we wanted to record a show we didn't have those fancy DVRs like these kids today, we would put a tape the size of a shoebox in a machine the size of a microwave and tape one show. That's they way it was... and we liked it!
All things change, Carson was king for his time, but times change. Each generation has its voice. The only thing Conan has in common with Carson is the Tonight show franchise name. He is not comparing himself to Carson or Leno, he is his own person.
Every night my mother and daddy would laugh at Johnny while eating their coffee ice cream. I would go and sit in front of their bed and watch Johnny. This nightly ritual was a family favorite and every time I see or hear Johnny Carson it brings back such wonderful memories!
I never watched Leno and I won't be watching Conan.
However, I do love David Letterman! My favorite show is when he recovered from his heart attack and brought everyone out on stage who were instrumental in his recovery. He hugged them and had tears in his eyes!
It was so endearing to see him so humble.
Nobody went postal about me meeting Ozzy or Barney or a Baron de Rothschild, what's up with this?
Okay, deep breath....
incandescent, I agree, Letterman asks tough questions. He does interrupt but he's gotten better and he does probe. I love watching him interview Paris Hilton, giving her just enough rope with which to hang herself and still treating her, outwardly, with complete respect.
Joan, we're dating ourselves, no argument, but unapologetically, and not all of us based only on pure nostalgia. I said in another comment, and firmly believe, that if Carson were alive as a host and comedian in the 21st century, he'd still be a hit. It's about talent and ability to read the audience and reflect the times.
clodia, thanks for the clarification. And I'd like to apologize to all offended by the "callow frat boy" characterization. But it's just my opinion, after all, and I'm not alone. Professional critics have said the same from time to time. Be that as it may, I don't deny his drawing power or intelligence, it just doesn't speak to me.
auntrogers, comparison of late night hosts is inevitable, I didn't start the fire. You don't know me or the format of my blog... it's essentially based on stories of my fairly interesting life and, as I said above, my so-called "brushes with greatness." One of which I managed to achieve through Ed McMahon. Who isn't all that great. But gave me a great opportunity.
Greg, Pamela, Black and Joe, thank you! You add texture and meaning to my personal argument.
c Pilgrim, you sure put me in my place.. I feel as though I'm back in university or writing for a newspaper and getting a bad review. You refer to me in the third person, so you're clearly speaking to other commenters and don't want to hear from "the author."
Mary, I loved your post, you make a lot of strong arguments in it. And so does Man Talk Now, but why am I not surprised? ;) As for sketch comedy, let's remember that Ernie Kovaks, Steve Allen and Johnny Carson did the same, each adding a new and different dimension. Conan's sketches make 20-something's laugh. He's.in his 40's. One of Carson's best--and most valuable-qualities was his ability to appeal to a very broad audience, across generations is all I'm sayin'.
Jocelyn and Bryan, I never had occasion to write about Conan before; this is obviously the topical moment. I don't like his humor. Never did. Said so. And certainly don't think my opinion will have any impact on his success. You like him, please, enjoy. You're entitled to your opinion too.
ktm, you're right, that's the biggest difference I see... connectivity. Maybe that's why Conan doesn't move me. It's not about age, Craig Fergusen connects with everybody and makes me laugh.
XJS, I make it a point to try to thank each commenter, but prefer not to engage with people who angrily rail at my opinions and call me names.
Tom, I've apologized if that remark offended people, but it was aimed at a public entertainer, not at you. And I've explained why I included my personal connection. It's no crime to have met Johnny Carson, especially behind the scenes -- it was a privilege and great fun. I've also said previously I've met Ozzy and Barney and every president since Nixon. Part of my life and what I tend to write about.
I want to point out to those who remember--incorrectly--that Carson didn't do political humor. Wow. He scewered every contemporary pol with pitch perfect accuracy. Sorry you don't remember that. I'll try to find a clip.
But seriously, cancel everyone else, and just let Triumph have his own show.
Better luck with your next piece.
;-)
(Rated)
After the last Super Bowl I was telling students how much I enjoyed the Springsteen halftime show when one particularly aggressive fellow blurted out, "Oh man, Springsteen sucks! Tom Petty was much better." When I replied, "Can I like both?" he looked at me as if I'd just killed his puppy. It isn't, after all, a horse race.
Steve, I'd love to dress up as a Flapper from the 20's, thanks. But I have my own grandmother's things. Not her taste, though.
tregibbs, I appreciate your passion. And frankly, sometimes I feel like a nut.
Lolly, we sure agree, nice to have you here among the hollerers.
patricia, we've started to watch Ferguson when he can, he's amazing. Does everyone here know he flies without a net? No script or cue cards for his monologue, just thinking smart and funny on the spot.
Sam, busted, I LOVE Triumph!
aka, I mean really, this is serious stuff and nobody understands the pain of the hard-working journalist. Just call me Brenda Starr. ;)
Roger, no kidding, I'm puzzled too. These young whippersnappers get riled up over every little thing... ;)
Hal, another voice of reason. I've tried to watch Conan over and over, I didn't write this post without any knowledge of him. Since I wrote this I've watched him every night. Still confused. In The Year Three Thousand... what is that?
Bryan, thank you. Yet another cogent comment with reason and common courtesy. Why do people think insulting me will change my mind?
That's what created space for people like Letterman and O'Brien. Both of whom, incidentally, (sometimes) do a great job deconstructing & poking fun at the show-biz phoniness of having a talk show. That level of irony (and self-consciousness) is what later generations responded to, and what made Carson seem so flat to some of us. If you don't enjoy that kind of post-modern self-consciousness, then you won't respond to a lot of O'Brien's material (like the 'in the year 3000' bit, or the surreality of the FedEx Pope).
Still, Carson wasn't putting on a show for kids like me. He came from a time when entertainment was a bit simpler, more straightforward, when people wanted to chuckle at stars hanging out and having fun, and that's what he delivered. So he was very good at what he was trying to do. By the same token, though, it seems odd to judge O'Brien for not delivering a Carson-style performance, when that's not his target. From my perspective, it's good things have moved on.
Naturally, I wanted to see the show live, so when I was 13, I wrote to NBC for tickets. Once the two tickets for me and Mom arrived in the mail—oh, happy day!—I noticed the small print stating that admittance was limited to those 18 or older. I didn’t see that as a problem, though: first, I was more mature-looking than 13, and second, my mother agreed to lie on my behalf. Needless to say, I was giddy with anticipation.
The day we were to attend the taping turned out to be the problem: November 22, 1963. “The Tonight Show” went dark that day, as did the rest of the country. For some reason, I never tried to obtain “Tonight Show” tickets for a later date. And so I never saw Johnny Carson in person.
I still have those unused tickets, though.
Letterman's just plain boring, but a good interviewer.
Conan is a fucking genius. He's one of the funniest men on television. Perhaps THE funniest man.
I haven't seen him on the new show, so maybe he's gone horribly down hill. Maybe the big time is getting to him. Maybe he had a couple of bad nights. But no one has ever gotten through to my generation so adeptly. He was Robot Chicken before anyone even knew who Seth Green was. You may not like it, it might not be your thing, you may not get it, but many of us do, and we're glad he's there.
Joyce K. Reynolds
Ok, wait, but I know why I don't like baked beans. Because I don't like the texture, and I don't care for the mixture of sweet and savory on something like a bean. I prefer my beans to be spicy...it balances out their mealiness.
But why am I talking about beans? Well, to prove to that "it doesn't speak to me" is not a legitimate criticism. Nor is "it isn't appetizing." Because a critique needs weight and careful analysis in order to be successful. Every time someone has questioned your dislike of O'Brien, your response has been, "I don't like him, why do you have a problem with that?"
Well, because you aren't giving us examples with which we can relate. Can you give us an example of a particular skit that fell flat for you? Can you tell us why that skit fell flat? NYDilettante did a great job of talking about specific reasons why he/she did/did not like both comedians.
I think the reason why you're getting such a negative response from so many people is because you dismiss any other opinions offered without engaging in any real diaglogue about the issue. There's good stuff to be talked about here-- like, why is it that 20somethings love Conan? What is it about this generation that can't appreciate Johnny? Is it even fair to compare generations or is that just so much "up-both-ways-in-the-snow-barefoot-with tetanus" hogwash? But just declaring "well, it just isn't my thing" is reductive, especially when there is much more to say.
Because they took over the franchise there is a natural tendency to compare the new to the old. Carson was compared to Parr and Parr was compared to Allen. There were three between Allen and Parr, but they are not even in the lineup because they did not leave any lasting impression.
I agree Carson did in many respects create the format we consider late night entertainment. He is the gold standard by which late night talk shows are measured. In the same way Phil Donahue was the standard by which all daytime shows are measured.
Carson drew from Phil Silvers, Show of Shows, Jack Benny, etc. It was a more innocent time in America and for TV. Even though we laugh at the old stuff, it would not make it with today's humor.
Carson didn't steal Benny's famous pregnant pause. Rather, it was just a tribal trait they shared.
Letterman's 'Stupid Human Tricks' and 'Will it Float?' are direct continuation of the Carson sensibility; and Dave has been sensible enough to stay away from the sacred ground of the Mighty Carson Art Players: The Great Karnak, Tea Time Movies -- just look for the fork in the road. I could see that map 1,000 times -- it always kills me!
Sally, I think it would have been wiser to pay tribute to Mr. Carson.
Instead you used this venue to slam some very talented people who
are well-loved.
Also, trust me, many people had connections to J.C. and got great tickets to his shows. That part of your piece is not terribly interesting, mostly because of how you wrote about it.
You definitely do not seem to have done your homework on Conan. He is a gem and quirky and silly, but very smart. It's called entertainment. If he does not make you laugh, then change the channel. Watch PBS.
Again, you should just pay tribute to Carson since you adore him so much and not have him associated with trashing other hosts. Seems to be of disservice and not at all positive or productive.
This feels more like nostalgia and pining for the old days than anything else. Sure, Carson was great. Conan is great in his own, different way, which resonates with me, my family, and many others I know. I'm sorry it doesn't resonate with you.
I think your mistake is comparing the two, I know it seems the natural thing to do but I find it entirely unnecessary.
Don't forget Conan is an entire generation of talk show hosts post Carson and like all art forms comedy has evolved into something different than it was in his hey day. The fact that you intimated that Conan's humor only worked with frat boys makes me think you have not watched very much Conan.
The fondness you feel for Carson now will probably be the same way that fans of Conan will feel years after his is he has retired with when some new guy who we feel couldn't hold a candle to Conan takes his place.
And then Johnny. He was the best. But he stood on the shoulders of these guys. And the hosts today stand on the shoulders of them all.
Conan strikes me as a perennial frat boy, but maybe I'm just showing my age.
I can't possibly answer everybody but I want to say again that I have watched Conan over and over, trying to get the humor. I love Triumph. Conan occasionally makes me laugh. Not nearly enough to sustain every night.
Generational? Sure. But it's not nearly that simple. Stephen Colbert is younger than Conan O'Brien and he makes me laugh every time. So does Craig Ferguson. Carson was way older and he made me laugh too.
Lea's not the only one besides me who's mentioned frat boy humor. I don't understand why that offends those of you who love Conan. Why do you care what *I* think and why are you trying so hard to change my mind?
As for the good old days, you can't write about a dead man who's been off the air for years without some "nostalgia." But that's wasn't my point. I was talking about smart comedy. Right out of the gate, Carson's first show was funny. So was Letterman's. So was Colbert's. So was Ferguson's. These are all (well, not Letterman, but still, he's of this century) younger men. Smart comedy is funny to people of all ages.
I honestly believe that those of you in your 20's will not look back as fondly at Conan as many generations of many ages still look back at Carson.
Oh, btw, I was around for the beginning of SNL. Knew immediately it was unique and very, very special. There has never been another cast to beat it. Yes, many stars were born from subsequent casts. But that original group was in a league of its own. Just like Johnny Carson.
Haven't seen any mention of Craig Kilborn - he was extremely good and had some of the best guest line-ups... much better than Craig Ferguson, in my opinion. What a bad career move he made by leaving that show...
Yes, I have noticed that the timing of Conan's last 3 shows have been slightly off. That first show was hilarious with him running cross-country and his comment about how his show "no va cambiar." The 2nd (or was it the 3rd??) show was equally funny with the "Rodeo Road" shopping spree. But he almost appears a bit nervous at times. And I certainly like the old black smocks better than those metallic things they had on last night in their "looking into the future" skit ("in the year 3000 . . ."). But L.A. is a different crowd, indeed, for what it's worth. I think Conan would be wise to have some local talent instead of parading the same old guests that do nothing but pat themselves on the back all the time. He should invite Los Lobos or "El Vez" (a Mexican-American 'Elvis' impersonator who is very, very funny).
Give me a break here. No one ever suggested, or even implied that Carson was being replaced. He was truly irreplaceable. And here we have Conan, a week into his new show .. doomed.
I got news for you old timers, of which I am one.
There are plenty of young people who don't know Carson from their elbow who have grown up with Conan, and love him.
Give the guy a break!
Gwool, your comment was the perfect coda to Sally's post! Night kayaking to Johnny's voice ....cool.
But the idea that Letterman is like him baffles me. Dave is so very cold and distant from his guests. And talk about sarcastic! He is funny but not in the warm way that Carson was - I must admit that Letterman has never felt approachable to me.
Conan is Conan, but I do think he is very warm and approachable, and I enjoy a lot of his humor. And Andy Richter is only for the first week, I think. But Richter was my favorite part of Conan's show back in the day; he's got the same twisted, second-tier sense of humor that I do. And the audience doesn't get it very often.
I think out of all of them Craig Ferguson is the most open-hearted, genuine and interesting. But I'm usually not up late enough to see him!
Anyway, it's amazing to me how much conflict a post about Carson has generated! ;)
"Frankly, my dear. I don't give a damn."
Is it YOU who CALLED SOMEONE NAMES who was dear to the hearts of so many many Americans of MY age and our parents.
It was YOU who hit a nerve and stomped upon it with your deeply negative description of MISTER BOB HOPE, an American Hero.
YOU have no basis upon which to stand to defend your belittling of someone who was so very important to MY AMERICA during one of the very most trying times in its history.
I won't waste bandwidth demanding an apology from you FOR MISTER HOPE as, I can see from
In discussing the smear with others of my generation and older, we have agreed that it was uncalled for.
Bye.
Let us see that which you WANT to make my "calling you names".
In terms of the comedic potential of the show, Conan is the man for this age and the near future. His sensibility is contemporary, just as Carson was contemporary for his time in the seat.
The author of this piece also had a personal connection which further colors and enhances her perception -- again, nothing wrong with that, but it's nostalgia in a double dose. Lucky her, of course, but not quite as objective as other opinions, perhaps!
Anyway, as a Letterman partisan who never got over the pain and anger of Leno being given the Tonight show, I'm with ya.
I don't know what generation I fall into on OS - Gen X, but I always seem to be too young or too old in comparison with other commenters comments.
My analysis is pretty simple. My parents never stayed up late enough to watch Carson - also, the T.V. was in the T.V. room and was modest in size and got five channels. Even when we got the first version of cable - 23 or so channels - the T.V. was not on very much.
I DO remember seeing Carson - but probably not until I was watching on my own, and I was all about Letterman.
I remember watching talk shows when I was home, sick, from school - Dinah Shore, Mike ??, so many others that everyone will recall - and variety shows at night. That was the format in the "70's. I expect it evolved from radio shows - based on dialogue.
Carson was a master at a craft that he honed through years of the development of television as THE medium. Conan O'Brien is different because, well, it's all different. I don't watch him, but I wish him the best of luck.
At least we all mostly agree that Leno was a very sad choice to replace Johnny Carson.
Thanks for your post, Sally!
Conan had his own show on after Leno since 1993, quite a long and successful run in its own right. Please, please let Mr. Carson rest in his grave along with the Rat Pack and alll the other entertainers of yesteryear who Aren't Coming Back.
And Johnny was no Conan. Conan is laugh outloud funny and an equal, albeit different entertainer than Johnny.
Fat lesbians like Conan just as much s your "callow frat boys."
You KNEW the Cash4Gold.com spokesperson? Was he always into gold and/or exchanging currency for said gold?
Do you remember how your parents/grandparents hated the things you liked as a kid? Well, you've now become them. I hate to say it, but comedy has passed you by (Carson is, by most accounts, dead). What you think is funny is far more in line with Jay Leno than what anyone below 40 finds funny.
You're right, Conan O'Brien is no Johnny Carson. He isn't a dead comedian who represents a tired era of comedy. Conan is fresh, witty, and well-educated. He wrote for the Simpsons and helmed the best late show over the past 10 years, easily.
Waiting with baited breath for your next piece, "Arrested Development is no The Honeymooners." The coarse language they use on that show! The revealing outfits! One of the characters might be a homosexual! Television has become a wasteland!
Also, anyone who thinks of Conan as a frat boy is obviously completely unfamiliar with actual frat boys. And should therefore count themselves lucky.
Conan's fans are a different generation that isn't looking for a rehash of Johnny Carson like you are - they're not old geezers on the couch looking for Johnny to be reincarnated. Johnny Carson was original for his time, just as Conan is for his.
The Tonight Show didn't exist before Steve Allen, Jack Paar, and Johnny Carson. Conan will establish his own uniqueness and grow with the generations that are in tune with his humor - not an audience from 50 years ago. He will eventually establish his own unique show that will be the Johnny for his generation - just as Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, and others have.
Jay Leno is pitiful.
This is a nice piece of nostalgia for Carson -- but it ain't 1975 anymore.
Absolutely, it's generational.
Boomers are too earnest for sarcastic Gen X humor.
You are truly an idiot.