By Haaretz Service and The Associated Press
Another view of what happened. One of the three most watched videos around the world, on YouTube.
"Islamist groups says Israel must free all activists and agree to deliver the cargo in full before it will allow in any of the aid." Hamas blocking entry of flotilla aid into Gaza
Why am I not surprised? Conditions. Always conditions. Self-righteous, militant, anti-humanitarian, contradictory. And always self-serving. "You stopped us from sending aid. So we'll stop you from sending that same aid until you give us everything we want."
Hello? Isn't their first priority to get the aid where it's needed? That's their goal. Or is it?
Before you summarily convict Israel for firing on the so-called "humanitarian aid flotilla," remember they refused to accept or heed an established blockade guarding shorelines against terrorism.
On purpose. With a purpose.
Israel and Egypt are partners in that blockade. It's meant to keep Hamas and Hezzbolah and other terrorists from transferring themselves and weapons and bombs and rockets into the powder keg of The West Bank, Gaza,Israel.
So Israel offered the boats a place to land, at the Israeli port of Ashdod, to have the cargo inspected. Offered help transferring genuine humanitarian products to Gaza. The flotilla refused. Why?
You know why. We all know why. They are supported by Hamas and wanted a confrontation, the deadlier the better. They are supporting Hamas and were carrying much more deadly cargo than grain and shoes.
They got half of what they wanted. Confrontation. Check. PR disaster for Israel: check. More martyrs for the cause: check. Contraband and terrorists smuggled into Israel: fail.
Was Israel provoked? Yes. Did Israel kill innocent people? Yes. Was that incredibly wrong? Yes. Was everyone on those ships as innocent and humanitarian as they claim? N. F. W.
Does that absolve Israel? Absolutely not. Does that transform the flotilla participants into angelic, peace-loving, innocent martyrs? N. F. W.
That blockade is there for a reason. Do you know what it's like to live under constant threat of attack by those who seek fulfillment in martrydom through Israeli deaths, essentially in a state of war, every single day? No. You. Don't.
The Reality of Terrorism
Does the Israeli government have problems with corruption, special interestes, hawks, doves, ultra-conservatives, super-liberals, radicals and rascals? Of course! Name a government in the world that doesn't.
Then name a democracy in the world that is physicaly surrounded and powerfully outnumbered by sworn enemies declaring full intent --and actiing on it regularly-- to destroy that country, its democracy, and all its people.
Americans think we understand what it means to live with terrorism. We haven't got a clue.
Yes, 9/11 taught us a brutal lesson about our vulnerability to sudden atrocious attack. But no matter how horrible, it happened only once. It hasn't happened again.
Yes, some attempts have been made. Some idiotic, some dangerous, all foiled. We're bombarded about those attempts for several days of endlessly looping news cycles until another celebrity meltdown claims the media's attention.
Mostly we go through the business of our daily lives more concerned about titillation and Tea Baggers than terrorism.
In the end, the lasting imprint of 9/11 for the majority of Americans is sadly this: it's harder to travel through airports. We have to stand in long security lines and wait while our luggage is scanned. Poor us. What an inconvenience.
We are such whiny innocents.
Israelis live in the Motherland of terrorism. There, every time you get on a bus, sit in a cafe, walk down a street, visit a tourist attraction, hotel, embassy or home in any city, resort, village, no matter where -- you are literally risking your life.
Hear me. Heed me. This is not propaganda. It's simply a fact of life. Danger from fanatical terrorists is real and imminent everywhere in Israel. All. The. Time.
Rockets pound the North. Rocket bombs zip though (fortunately empty) schools on the Southern coast. Yeshivas and pizza parlors are blown up. Buses too.
Virtually every day, terrorists with bombs strapped to their bodies are stopped and disarmed at checkpoints around the country.
You see signs everywhere on the streets and in buildings, "Report Unattended Packages to Police." Army vehicles are as commonplace as taxis on the streets. So are soldiers.
It's impossible to walk anywhere without also seeing signs of violence, whether craters in sidewalks and buildings, memorial plaques ... or the empty sleeves and pant legs of its victims.
Daily Life in Israel
Remember after 9/11 Americans were told to stockpile bottled water and duct tape? Ludicrous.
Every home in Israel has a built-in bomb shelter. Not a dark, elaborate bunker, just one utilitarian, carefully and specially reinforced room to protect the family in case of attack.
When I visit my closest family, I'm given the honor of the reinforced room (displacing two nieces), mostly because it's the quietest. I can't take pictures of the security details, but you can see it looks pretty much like just another teen bedroom.
Average Israelis, like us --at least on the surface-- seem to worry more about politics, the economy and taxes than terrorism. Almost impossible to believe, but true.
When I'm there I revert to the same mindset. I too walk and drive and shop and don't feel fear or dread. You can't live that way day after day, always looking over your shoulder, you'd go insane.
Still, living under constant pressure of terrorism takes its toll. Israelis have the highest rates of hypertension, heart attacks and ulcers in the civilized world.
Everybody smokes. Talks incessantly. Argues. Oddly, alcoholism isn't a big issue, though it's growing, but reckless, aggressive driving is. Divorce rates are high.
Hard to imagine, so is hope.
Part of my family in Israel live in a town in the middle of the country, not near the West Bank, Gaza, or other hotly contested danger zones. It's also a religious enclave.
But ultimately nothing and nowhere there offers any guarantee of safety. Throughout Israel risk management is a necessary daily fact of life. You almost don't notice how commonplace it is.
Ultimate Security
I reflexively do what everyone must do at any super market, store, movie theater, restaurant, health club, museum, school, commercial or public building in the country -- I open my purse or backpack for inspection and pass through a metal detector.
Imagine doing that at Super Fresh or Publix. At your neighborhood deli or dry cleaner. Imagine standing in a security line like at the airport just to see "Avatar." Or shop at the Gap.
It's unimaginable to Americans. Except it's easier in Israel because they're the world's experts at security screening. Fast. Seamless. It's not like our bumbling TSA. Security has been deadly serious business in Israel for more than 60 years.
In America and most of the Western world, terrorism is a political issue. A Talking Point. In the Middle East it's literally a daily struggle of life and death.
I wonder, if that were true on American soil, how much more effective would Homeland Security become?
And if you still think we truly live with terrorism in America as they do in Israel, think about this: Every time your kids go to a mall, dance at a nightclub, leave for school or get on a bus ... you don't have to worry they might be blown to bits.
Take a minute. Really. Think about that. Chilling. Reality.
The Reality of Israel
I truly can't imagine why so many intelligent people have such a hard time understanding the precariousness of Israel's position in the Middle East? Especially its need, it's obligation to defend itself.
Yes, defend. To this day, throughout the Middle East, countless Arab organizations, religious leaders, politicians and entire government manifestos --not to mention terrorist organizations, fringe groups and fanatics-- continue to call openly and vociferously for Israel's destruction.
That's not Zionist propaganda. Or imagination. It's reality TV.
You still think Israel is the only aggressor, the biggest villain? That Zionists are fooling the world into thinking Israel is surrounded and desperate and has no options? You might as well deny the Holocaust too.
Have you never seen the celebrations when Hamas won the Palestinian elections? Did you read the signs? Did they say, "A New Day" or "Hope is Here" "A Time for Change"? No. They said "Death to Israel." What, you think Zionists wrote those signs? No.
That's reality. Offered openly to the world. Every time anything deadly happens in Israel or, for that matter, in America, Iraq or Afghanistan, the celebrations begin, the signs come out. "Death to Israel."
Why is Israel the scapegoat? The bottom line is, and always has been land. Much of the land sacred to the three major Western cultures and religions happens to be occupied by Israel. At the moment. Not without tremendous effort and loss of life.
Why is keeping that land so important, aside from assuring Israel's survival as a nation? And why is the destruction of Israel deemed necessary for Arab supremacy over that land?
I'm a Jew, my great-grandparents came to America from Palestine. From that very land. I've lived and worked in Israel. I go there regularly. I have friends and family there. I know the country and its citizens. I know Arabs too. Many decent, hard working people who just want to live in peace. As do most Israelis.
My family's connection with Israel is deep and strong.
My mother with David Ben-Gurion, architect, founding father and first Prime Minister of the State of Israel.
My mother, who consulted with the Ministry of Health and the Israeli army on the best way to help Israeli and Arab children orphaned after the War of Independence.
Me with friends in the beautiful town of Yamit which they built, long since given back to Egypt and ground to dust. (I will tell that story soon).
My sister's husband went to Cheltenham High School with Bibi Netanyahu for cryin out loud. I have friends in all political parties, in the military, the media, in arts and culture too.
Bibi's a hawk, a hardliner. Individual politics make good copy but in the end, no matter who's in power in Israel, nothing and nobody can get the Arab combatants to sit at a peace table. To even consider the two-state solution.
Since before Israel became a state, it has begged the Arab nations to share the land. To make more land available from the enormous areas of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia. To help Jews and Arabs live in peace side by side. I've lived in towns and settlements where this works.
But until the knife is lifted from Israel's throat, it will never happen. Until reasonable people understand the horrendous price paid by Israel just to exist, no solution will never be found.
That's the most bitter reality of all.
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Comments
Except, of course, for Jews.
I'm in Israel call me at 054 -218 5375 when you are there & welcome HOME.
Why bring children into this ?
Why not live somewhere that's safe for the kids ?
Nice post.
I only wonder why Israel doesn't do a better, more aggressive PR job.
If you feel that destroying us is the only way to go, you are in for a long hard fight that I highly doubt you will win. 700 million muslims in the Mid east against 6 Million ( that number sound familiar??) israelis. Wow you guys are a true fighting machine!!
If my mathematics is correct you outnumber us 116 to 1.
If you want peace.......... sit down at the table and talk like humans. Stop your rhetoric jew baiting in the mosque. Tell the 17 year old to 40 year old men of yours to quit fantasizing about those 72 virgins they are going to get into heaven and HAMMER out a Peace. If you want Jerusalem, you are NOT getting it unless you are willing to fight and win. You've tried that and I must say that is why we have the situation in GAZA. You blew up buses, you killed kids in kibbutz children houses, you left bombs on streetcorners, you killed olympic athletes, you crashed a %^&@ airplane into the the WTC and the list goes on. Don't bullshit us. The moment we knock down the wall or ease the blockade in GAZA is the day the suicide bomber comes back and terror is wreaks its ugly head. You want &^%$ing peace.than don't equate it to LAND. Peace is about living peacefully. If you can't accept living here............then leave. It is our LAND. Borders are dictated sometimes in this world by wars won . You want to be peaceful citizens join us. If you don't, you are stuck in the present consition your corrupt leaders put you in.
The thing is, the modern state of Israel is a reality, and must defend itself against its hostile neighbors just like any other state would. To do that, it must engage in some moral ambiguity. Sometimes I think Israel oversteps and its actions actually exacerbate the problem. But that is easy to say from my comfortable seat on the other side of the world. We forget just how small Israel is, and how easy it is to wreak havoc there.
The irony is that I think Israel's presence is actually welcomed by many of the leaders of its enemies. Israel is the easy scapegoat for the misrule of so much of the Arab and Persian world. Like so many totalitarian regimes in history, despots like to point to the external enemy to take attention away from their despotism. without Israel, their position would likely be far more precarious.
What country or people would you rather support?
1) A country that wants to get all the money it can from America to protect itslelf.
2) A people that will cut the heads off your kids in front of you b/c they are not muslims.
I know that's a tuff one for some people.
There is no Arab/Israeli conflict in the Middle East. It's a conflict between those who want violence and those committed to peace - that crosses all borders. Military means won't save Israel just as they haven't saved any country since the beginning of time. "Going down fighting" sounds all glorious and shit but it's not the right way to fight if you want to win.
Good to see reality represented.
The only solution for a total win is utter anniliation of every single Arab nation that has even the slightest will to harm Isarel.
A genocidal firestorm of insanity, if you will.
Alone they don't have that capability, and no one in the world has that kind of commitment to action.
On the other hand peace would be nice. It's just a pipe dream, that's all.
It is important to note that Turkey is a) a Muslim nation with a secular government; and b) the only Muslim nation giving Israel any support. Therefore, it is in the interests of Israel's more extremist enemies to provoke an incident that can undermine Turkey's relationship with Israel. And guess what -- they just succeeded in doing just that.
Rated
Why bring children into this ?
Why not live somewhere that's safe for the kids ?
Bob, you ask the universal question we can't seem to figure out here in America either. Money spent on war could be spent far better on peace. But, as you note, "Fear leads to hate, hate fosters repression, and repression breeds violence."
Kim, are you serious? Things are pretty bad in America these days. Should we all leave here too?
fernsy, self-defense is the bottom line. Unfortunately, Israel is held to virtually impossibly high standards and never forgiven when it fails.
Fay, that's the bottom line in America. Armchair quarterbacking and condemnation of dealing with circumstances unknown in this country. Lucky for us. Luckier than most can begin to understand.
nerd cred, Israel's lack of good PR has been troubling. It's partly a symptom of internal debate and inability to overcome the enormous PR machines of all its enemies.
If Israel is not to be absolved for the killings, then you really have no business criticizing those who take Israel to task for the killings.
But of course your explicit refusal to absolve Israel is itself deeply disingenuous, since the entire post aims to do exactly that, to justify Israeli action on the basis of Israeli vulnerability to terror and Arab bad behavior. In this regard you sound alot like George Bush defending waterboarding.
In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry." Krauthammer.
Always the double standard when it comes to Israel and its survival.
I understand the precariousness of Israel's position in the middle East. This is exactly why I can't understand why Israel uses unequal violence (firing on a ship in international waters?? killing people on board??) that only makes its position in the world more precarious.
Either violence is the answer or peace is the answer. If you plan to use violence, and to rationalize it regardless of circumstances, you can't expect to find peace.
The muslim world did vow to eradicate israel...a few decades ago. since then the U.S. has invaded two muslim countries....
Do you understand why Arabs might feel defensive (and unsafe) too? And yes, many of them have human-rights abusing governments (too).
But Israel isn't being held to a higher standard. It needs to be held to the same standard. If you are going to use aggressive violent force, it's good that there is some criticism in the world even if not inside the U.S. Some of the fiercest critics of Israeli violence come from people living inside Israel, from holocaust survivors who believe that "never again" didn't just apply to people of one race or one religion, but to all people of all races and to all religions.
Either you believe in the rights of all humans, or you are only in it for your own tribe. Fortunately, the younger generation of many different races and religions, including those in Israel and in muslim countries (Iran) seems more committed to the rights of all people. This includes the rights of the people in the Gaza to receive humanitarian aid as per international law (and humanitarian will) dictates.
I know I need to understand every viewpoint. Thank you for representing yours with your usual amazing writing and great sense of peace.
I'm so glad you wrote this, and that I read it. I may not be as aware as I should be, so thanks for heping out with news and real life information.
I feel kind of lucky today.
mike, all valid points. Our defense of Israel is equally passionate. We have different styles. Mine is thoughtful, expository, somewhat conciliatory. Yours is more confrontational and adamant. I'm not sure which is better, or if that's even possible. (And frankly, you say aloud what I think). Honey and vinegar, I guess.
Jonathan, "we all know why" but not everybody seems to know why. That is partly my goal here. Doomed, I'm sure.
Steve, you managed to say in three paragraphs what I've been trying to convey in this whole post. EVERYONE, PLEASE READ PROCOPIUS' COMMENT.
Karin, thank you for listening. You have sources other than the news and you chose to use them. That is the crux of what I'm begging people on this side of the world to do.
Two Thumbs, it does seem a no-brainer. Both have decency in their people too, but the face shown to the world is dangerously bad.
Harry, you're so right, "It's a conflict between those who want violence and those committed to peace - that crosses all borders." Military means (and US support) has been saving Israel for 65 years. What else can they do?
alexola and Robin, thank you both. I've been girding my loins waiting for the counterpoints and counter-punches to weigh in. Could be a long weekend.
Doug, I don't want to see anyone but fanatical terrorists annihilated. Peace will only come under tremendous economic pressure, if ever, if at all.
sophieh, you're welcome. I didn't want to join in, but it's a responsibility, isn't it?
motherwell, you're right about the news and the prejudging without facts. I've tried to supply some, at the least, context. You added an important dimension I missed about Turkey. Thank you.
Blackflon, thank you. It's troubling all the time and I don't have all answers. I am mostly suggesting those who rush to judgment will only get the wrong answers.
bear_feet, you say the Muslim world vowed to eradicate Israel decades ago as if it's all in the past. Surely you know the threat grows ever greater. Violence is never the right answer, but neither is submitting to annihilation. Yes, Israel's actions should be examined and criticized, and yes the people of Gaza should receive aid, I said that. What they must not receive is guns and bombs. And let me understand this: young people in Iran are committed to human rights for all? Wow. I wish that were so.
aim, giving voice to a different side is my goal here. I don't claim to know everything or that Israel is blameless. But it's impossible to blame all the problems of the Middle East on the one small country all the others want to destroy.
Rita, goodness, I never said anyone who questions Israel is a hater. Some may be, some seem to be, others merely seem too quick to condemn without facts, understanding, perspective. Knowledge should breed understanding, not hatred. We have to try, anyway.
I don't see them as hating Jews, rather reverting to an age-old bias without even realizing it. Passive anti-Semitism, racism, sexism, etc. are insidious, rarely recognized and if noted, vociferously denied. I'd guess sincerely too. That's why I'd rather see in-your-face hatred... at least there's no ambiguity.
you write "Surely you know the threat grows ever greater."
do you think that the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have made Israel's security better or worse?
" Violence is never the right answer, but neither is submitting to annihilation. Yes, Israel's actions should be examined and criticized, and yes the people of Gaza should receive aid, I said that. What they must not receive is guns and bombs."
Let's be clear. The blockade also includes crayons and coriander. The U.N. says the people worst affected are the old, the poor, and children. People are dying because of the blockade. Also, the blockade is least affecting the armed groups.
you write "And let me understand this: young people in Iran are committed to human rights for all? Wow. I wish that were so."
Sally, here you lose me. Your sarcasm sounds racist. Do you think that one's race determines one's beliefs? The demonstrators against Iran's current regime were tortured for wanting more freedom and a more western style of government. They were tortured for wanting freedom. Did you see their protests as being against Israel? Do you think that the younger generation's protests were not some sign of hope in the middle east? (Except for the fact that they were tortured by their government afterwards).
If you think that the Arab anger toward Israel "Death to Israel" comes purely from being antisemetic and nowhere else maybe this is a source of deep racial misunderstanding. The arab people I know think of Israel as a western invader. They are angry at the west. Their anger at the west goes back to the time of the crusades. They also think its illogical that Western countries like Germany tried to exterminate all Jews so instead of giving up their land as punishment, the Palestinians were forced to give up theirs. Logically, they see the treatment of people in the Gaza (like second class citizens or as animals) to be a symptom of western hatred toward muslims that dates back prior to Lawrence of Arabia. They have a history too.
Their history matters too.
When you don't see the other side as fully human--if you judge their interest in human rights based purely on their race--nobody wins.
Terrorist organizations have all the time and energy in the world to recruit Palestinians. All they have to do is point out that countries like the U.S. may be using Israel as an excuse to colonize the middle east in order to have access to oil.
Done. Another soul lost.
I just want you to see that it's not purely an Israeli-Muslim conflict. The christians too have also played a horrible role (Hitler Hitler). When you don't figure the crimes of Christians into the picture its easier to judge all muslim people as terrorists or potential terrorists without seeing anything that shapes the way they see the world. (Also, defensively).
I dumped a boyfriend once because he made a joke about trash in the Seine being the same thing as dead muslim bodies floating in the Seine.
I hate violence on all sides. But I also hate racism. There are muslims, like you say, who want peace. The younger generation, even in Iran, is a hopeful sign that things may be getting ready to change for the better. But if you or the current government in Israel wants to retreat into George Bush's world of irrational violent vigilance and preemptive wars and hate, the world could head back into another dark age instead.
peace, Sally.
Thomas Robert Malthus wrote about birthrates and the effect it has on whether an economy is growing, neutral or shrinking. When the birthrate goes below 2.1 children to a couple and retirement age is 65 and people live longer, this has a huge effect on a countriy's economic status. The people between 18 to 65 are the breadwinners. those 0-17 are supported as is those 65+. The support comes from either the private sector, black market or government.
Europe found its natives at about 1.5 kids per couple, the Americans slightly higher. In the name of economic growth, they opened the immigration doors.
The average Muslim couple in Europe is having more than 5.5 kids. Begium will be 50% Muslim by 2035, followed by Germany soon after. Europe will be over 50% Muslim in 40 years.
The demographic of America through race and religion is changing rapidly.
Israel will be facing not only a fanatically Muslim Middle East by the year 2050 but a Muslim Europe. It will not be in the USA's interest to back Israel in another 15 years as it would be contrary to the tenet of 'We the People'
So................. Israel better get use to acting alone. Her days of guaranteed USA backing are in their twilight years.
Israel has to act to protect her citizens. If she lets her guard down for one moment...........it's over. That's it. Israel is the size of New Jersey. She isnt so tall, stretching from Metulla to Eilat about 263 miles in length ( think of a drive from Detroit to Chicago). At her widest width, she has about 70 miles and at her narrowest width she has about 9 miles. One mistake, allowing an army to cut us in half at Netanya..and we are up the proverbial creek without the paddle.
So, it's a good thing we get into the habit of being fastiduous, thorough and to minimize mistakes. Checking supplies coming into Gaza is called being thorough and responsible to our citizens.
In the coming years, the only people we will be able to depend on is ourselves. Best we start with that mindset in 2010 and not delay it when it might be too late.
Another part of the problem today is that too many people who wnat to think of themselves as liberal, progressive, and humanitarian, have allowed undisciplined violence against noncombattants to be romanticized as it never has been before. When the KKK did it, it was considered just plain evil, and contrary to the most basic values of any civilized nation; and even racists had a hard time excusing it to the general public. But when the PLO did much the same things to Jews, airheads came out of the woodwork all over the West trying to rationalize it as a legitimate tactic to fight "oppression." And now the public discourse has been hopelessly poisoned by this relentless excusing of undisciplined murder, to the point where actions that would be considered inexcusable crimes anywhere else, are routinely ignored with regard to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Seriously, where else on Earth is blowing up a busload of civilians considered an appropriate response to anything?
No, it doesn't: Israel's actions, and Isreal's circumstances, are very different from Bush's. Equating the two is, at best, lazy and simpleminded.
"Europe found its natives at about 1.5 kids per couple, the Americans slightly higher. In the name of economic growth, they opened the immigration doors.
The average Muslim couple in Europe is having more than 5.5 kids. Begium will be 50% Muslim by 2035, followed by Germany soon after. Europe will be over 50% Muslim in 40 years."
The children of religious parents will have children who are human beings who will and can choose their own religion and way of life.
Your racial fear mongering is the worst of an old style way of thinking. The future of America and Europe is a battle for ideas and ideals. If you see it as a purely racial battle...well that makes you in league with a lot of unsavory people.
I wish that you could see that hating (racial) muslims for their birth is no better than hating (racial) Jews for theirs. No difference. If you don't like their ideas or ideals fight them there....but if you think birth and religion are the same thing you are a tribalist. No better or worse.
The human race is all part of one tribe. But you and your kind will probably never be able to see that. And no, I don't mean "your kind" to mean your parents skin color or even DNA. I mean it is an old style mindset.
The future of human existence depends on human kind seeing itself as bigger than that.
And that's part of the problem: too many Muslims using the Crusades as an excuse to hate foreigners and blame them for longstanding problems within the Muslim world that they're simply unwilling or unable to address responsibly. Hello? the Crusades happened CENTURIES ago. When are you going to start facing reality TODAY?
NONE of the Arabs' grievances against Israel or the West justify any of the stupid, undisciplined violence that has only made the Palestinians worse off, not better. (Why is there a blockade on Gaza? Because that land, and those people, were used as a base for rocket attacks against Israel. Those rocket attacks can never be justified or excused, for the simple reason that they didn't do anyone any good.)
Have you guys forgotten Martin Luther King already? King had some damn good reasons to reject violence; and it's long past time for those who claim to speak for the Arabs and Palestinians to remember those reasons.
I never said Israel's actions or circumstances were "the same" as Bush's. And only a a "lazy and simple-minded" reader would say I did. I said in seeking to justify Israel's human rights violations on the basis of the dangers they face, Sally Swift was employing the same moral logic as George Bush's defense of waterboarding. Logic implies, for those of us who are not "lazy and simpleminded," a level of abstraction, whereby different circumstances might be productively linked on the basis of their common properties. In this case-- and I'll do the math for you, so as not to challenge your "lazy and simpleminded" approach--the common properties would be human rights violations (firing upon an aid ship in international waters; waterboarding), dangers faced (terrorist attacks), the coexistence of officially democratic ideologies that officially discountenance human right violations (shared by Israel, the US, and presumably Sally Swift), and a willingness to indulge in that form of moral logic known as "situational" in approving, condoning, excusing, or at least conniving at such officially discountenanced violations in the name of security (see dangers faced). That my "lazy and simpleminded" motherwell is called sharing a moral logic or, in the vernacular, "sounding like."
you write "the Crusades happened CENTURIES ago. When are you going to start facing reality TODAY?"
But sides that are using thousand year histories to justify violence today exist all around. Just look and listen.
I agree with you though that it's not an answer. N.F.W.
Did it ever occur to you that a certain moral logic might be applicable in one situation but not the other? Just because it's not applicable to Bush, does not mean it's invalid. Linking the two, and thinking you've said something relevant, is lazy and simpleminded.
I understand what you are saying completely.
We do not have the luxury, to be in la la land. We have to take care of things that are happening now and prepare for what happens in the future. There is an old saying in the ancient hebrew writings that goes like this
Know where you came from, Know where you are and know where you are going to.
That translates to know your heritage, be totally aware of what is going on in the present and have a goal and target to sustain in the future.
We must take as much guesswork out of play as possible when dealing with our present and our future. The reality is one *&%$ up and it's over. So if Europe will be going Muslim in 20+ years, you can rest be assured that it is to our economic advantage to looke elsewhere for trading partners. If the demographic of America are rapidly changing and it appears to us we will not have their support, then it might be a darn good idea to plan on standing on our own two feet, and selectively fgoing out there and making new friends. I'm not saying America is not going to be our friend, but what I am saying, is the intensity of the frindship might very well wane.
This is not being negative as much as it is being pragmatic.
The John Donne poem ' no man is an island entire of itself, every man is a part of the main................when one man dies his death diminishes me..............' . It's a great poem, a lovely philosophy yet its a poem that one discusses in cafes on the Rue Ste Germaine or on the Via Veneto in Rome. It's not reality. Fundamentalist Islam is reality, and it is growing day by day.
One billion people against 10 million people will give even the biggest coward a swagger. That is what we will be facing.
Unfortunately we can wish as hard as we want for an ideal world and a' paradise where roses bloom', but after we open our eyes and blow out the candles we are faced with the reality of survival.
Sure we make our money, go on trips, have our kids get married, go hiking , discuss ideas, go sailing and have fun. You live life, have fun, laugh, cry, the entire gamut. But we are not stupid. We know what it is going to come down to and because of that we have to take demographics into account. People who take their collective existence seriously don't 'wing it'. You can wing it on a business call and if you screw up you only lose money. You can wing it when you do long term planning here.
So I dont get the 'racial fear' remark 100 %. We see a change happening, and through this change will be a new reality and through this new reality must come a new game plan.
Whistling Dixie through this won't cut it
libertarius, are you here to discuss or to name call and show off your superior brain? Assuming partly the former, I offer this comment from you, "If Israel is not to be absolved for the killings, then you really have no business criticizing those who take Israel to task for the killings." Flawed hypothesis, is that better? I think you are determined to fight, not discuss. I won't bite.
bear_feet, you ask legitimate questions. I think the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have made the situation worse, consolidating resources of terror. Israel and the US are allies... hate one, hate the other. Plus, the billions supporting the wars means less economic strength for the US and for Israel.
How do we know the blockade is "least affecting the armed groups"? That is its main purpose, perhaps the relative quiet in terror attacks stems from that. There are two, three, four sides to the blockade and Gaza stories, none of us can presume to know them all.
I was being neither sarcastic nor (g-d forbid) racist in responding to your comments about the younger generation in Iran. I was, I am genuinely surprised to hear of it and hope they succeed.
I didn't say Arab hatred is purely anti-Semitic, I said it's about land. Radical anti-Israel leadership historically uses anything to incite hatred against Israel. Have you seen the Arab kiddie TV show episode in which a character identified as an Israeli policeman appears and kills their equivalent of Micky Mouse, live on camera? Also, "Palestinians" came to Palestine the same way Europe's Jews did... they left or were thrown out of their own countries. Nobody has full claim to that land. Nobody.
If you think me to be racist, you don't know me at all. And I have somehow failed miserably in this sincere post to make my biggest point. Nobody has a right to dehumanize anybody. Nobody.
Keep this in mind too, in case you missed it. I'm third generation American but I'm Middle Eastern too. My family traces itself back as far as we know to the Fertile Crescent. My roots are not European, they are Jewish to be sure, but from Turkey, Syria, Persia (Iran) and dare I say, Palestine. I know anti-Semitism does not only apply to Jews but to Arabs as well. Thank you for engaging with me and for providing me with information I didn't previously have. I would hope, somehow, you'd feel a little bit the same.
The rest of you seem to be doing quite well discussing among yourselves without further comment from me. That's a good thing. If you will only, please, LISTEN to one another.
Thank you for this post.
I didn't understand your response to my question about having children in such a dangerous place ( I was thinking about the new settlements, as well - it's all part and parcel now ).
You said : Things are pretty bad in America these days, should we all leave here as well ?
That's the part I didn't understand.
" Nobody has a full claim to that land. Nobody. "
I did understand that, and thank you for stating it so clearly.
Most of us don't leave our homelands if we can help it. Members of my family has lived in Israel for generations, they couldn't imagine living anywhere else. I can't imagine not living in America and part time in Israel too. I honestly don't feel threatened when I'm there. But we take reasonable precautions.
But I don't understand radical Israeli and American settlers who deliberately break the truces, incite already inflamed emotions and put their families in harm's way.
Again, I'm sorry for the miscue and if I offended you in any way.
I paid attention and read Procopius's comment. It seemed to be a good summary of things. I have often thought how crazed we got when a total preventable crime, 9/11, happened and we went nutty over losing 3,000 people. I knew that Israel lives with that fear each day. Your example of what it would be like if we feared for our sons and daughters on each trip to the mall made me pause for a good long time.
I appreciated the tone of your post. You presented your case without meaningless noise and insults. I learned much and read every comment. J-mike presented himself on this thread with more thoughtful comments that were informative. I can do without the personal attacks present on other threads that distract and make me feel as if I have to choose sides and either be for or against some of my closest OS allies and friends. I think I have a more clear picture of the blockade story now. I thank you for this post and caring enough to alert me to it. Learning is exciting; arguing and shouting I get enough of. Peace to you Sally and kudos for a fine piece of writing.
the situation is black and white: israel is a bandit nation, propped up by america.
If the Left can not accomodate religion, then the Left will continue to attack the Jewish state and be a participant in the most ancient of evil sports - Anti Semitism.
Please take notice BASHING ISRAEL in most cases is code as attack on Jews.
Reality may be a bitter pill to swallow, but that's precisely what it is.
mikeinjapan, if you agree with that, if you are among those who just dismiss Israel as a global annoyance, you are part of the problem.
Any of you who would swat Israel away like a pesky fly, do you have any sense of its importance in the global political balance? Talk about willful blindness. You all sound like the SATC girls in Dubai.
I am still stunned that al loomis would paint a picture of post-Holocaust European Jews as evil, strutting marauders taking a country by force. Yes, I know about the Irgun, a radical faction who believed guns and bombs were the only answer to those who were using the same. Does no one remember the Arab world supported the Third Reich? That even after the war, Europe's Jews weren't welcome anywhere, including America (although Nazis were). That those already in Palestine, my ancestors among them, offered the displaced of the world somewhere to go. It's a long, complicated story. Not a nasty punchline.
Amber, thank you.
To me, this fact almost overwhelms the fact of the Holocaust - even after the world knew of the horrors we wouldn't accept Jews. For all the lip service paid to "never again," post-war we actually admitted more German POWs to the U.S. than we did Jewish refugees.
However you cut it, the very identity and existence of OUR LAND is through judaism. Israel makes little sense without judaism. Yet, a majority of the Left has so convinced itself to the credo that progress comes with being secular, it cannot accept a religious explanation for anything. Immediately, because of this, we become a form of prejudice to you. - j-mike
Though in fact Israel is a religiously formed or regulated nation, it has been as much the ethnicity as the religion that has made Jews unacceptable in the rest of the world over time. The religion is the underlying rationalization. Secular, even converted Jews would be no more acceptable, in the Middle East especially, than religious ones. That is my impression in any event.
I knew a man who had wanted to emigrate to Australia in the '70's but couldn't because of the strict quota on Jewish immigration. In the 1970's. I still think that to satisfy a good share of the world Jews would have two choices: wall themselves off in ghettos or march passively into the sea.
It's not about the land or religion, it's about Jews.
My only caution would be to go a bit easy on the reflexive, liberal, packag-deal Bush-bashing. Let’s not forget that Israel enjoyed undiluted support from the U.S. throughout the Bush years.
On the other hand, a lot of the current ambivalence/hostility towards Israel is both directly and subliminally attributable to the atmosphere that Obama has created as a result of his misguided and totally unproductive overtures to Islam.
P.S. Your mother is very beautiful.
As a double Cohen with 1/2 my family dead in the ovens of Europe, I'll thank you to see israel through your rose colored glasses, and me to see it through the hypocrisy and lunacy, I've observed for more than four decades.
Never again is not the exclusive purview of the rogue nation.
It is a terribly complicated issue and Arafat and Hamas have done NOTHING to help, but let's not give Israel a free pass when it behaves badly, and criminally. Israel is held to a higher standard, or should be, given that it receives more in aid from the U.S. than any other country and is supposed to be a civil society.
No media dare to criticize Israel in America, but the way Israel deals with the Palestinians is giving reasons for the Jewish people to be hated around the world. I wonder what would happen if one day USA no longer needs Israel in the Middle East? If I were Israel I would be trying to make peace with my neighbors in a hurry...
No one with a good heart would mind helping people in need. if you think the Palestinians are not people then I understand why you don't like to help them. The Germans though the Jewish were not humans, the Spaniards thought the natives from the Americas were not humans, the Japanese though they were right when they hunted Chinese people, and the Europeans, and Americans thought God gave them the right to slave African people..Did you ever heard about genocide committed against the Armenians? That's right; we, humans, always manage to find a moral reason to killed lots, and lots of other humans...We've done that before...genocides is not exclusive quality of any race.
It takes a lot of effort for a person to look beyond his or her race and see only humans beings every where.
I feel compassion reading your story. I'm very sad for the pain your people has to endurance. Since you are a witness of what is happening in that area of the world, can you tell us now about the living conditions of the Palestinian people ?
If is it not too much to ask, can you also make a comparison between the living conditions in Gaza and the living conditions in Israel. Tell us, for example, which refrigerator has more food, a Palestinian refrigerator or a Israeli refrigerator? for this question you need to find a Palestinian house with refrigerator, and electricity to run that refrigerator. Also, can you tell us how many Israelis and how many Palestinians lost their life as consequence of their fight. What about water, Miss Swift, do Palestinians have access to water like Israelis do? Do Palestinians children drink milk every day like Israelis children do?
This is how you ended your post:
"But until the knife is lifted from Israel's throat, it will never happen. Until reasonable people understand the horrendous price paid by Israel just to exist, no solution will never be found. "
See? maybe because you're only seeing one knife on one throat non solution will be found...
That's the most bitter reality of all.
(this nice sentence is yours too)
If I offended you with these questions, please forgive me, and just don't answer them...just ignore me.
Thank you:
Platano Verde.
If someone agrees with you, they understand the situation? Is this what you are trying to get at Mr Double Cohen?
Israel and Egypt cooperate in that blockade because Hamas in particular has repeatedly attempted to send arms, bombs and terrorists into Gaza. Many, in fact ALL other ships have honored the blockade, had their cargoes inspected and gone on their way, no problem.
That ship refused to honor the blockade deliberately, it was a protest and (IMHO) undertaken in the wrong place at the wrong time. They did have weapons and they WANTED a fight. Israelis were hurt too. Should they have killed anyone on that ship? NO NO NO! They are under a perpetual state of war and OFTEN overreact. Is that an excuse? NO NO NO. Does it make them monsters??? NO NO NO.
Has anyone here been to Gaza? Do you know what it is? Do you know what it's really like there, first hand? I have. I do. You have no idea how much aid, food, medical help goes to Gaza from Israel and how many terrorists train there and how many Arab nations use it and its population as a political football. It's a much longer story and I'm going to try to tell it in another post.
I thank those who understand what I've been trying to say here. I won't answer specious, set-up comments about each sentence in my post and I truly don't understand what markinjapan is saying.
I rest my case.
If you re-read my comment, you "might" see that it simply says that I acknowledge Sally's right to view israel as she pleases, and presume that I have the same right.
Hellenthecatwoman, I don't know you and you don't know me but I am hardly demolished. No one answered my question: has anyone on this thread ever been to Gaza? Never mind, I guess that's not as important as pontificating from afar. And since when do we in America of all places, believe everything we read in the media?
What terrorism is found in school supplies and construction equipment? I'm curious...
What, there never was any "ambivalence/hostility towards Israel" before Obama got elected? Are you fucking kidding me? Even for AIPAC standards, that's stupid.
Oh, and how is something "subliminally attributable" to anything else? You're linking the two in your dreams?
...but please bear in mind that when you do so you're simply buying into the party line being generated in Tel Aviv.
So everyone who defends Israel is doing so pursuant to a "Tel Aviv party line?" Sounds like a Jewish-conspiracy theory to me. And you wonder why you get called "anti-Semitic?"
Many Arabs also want all the Israelis to die, but the political pressure is on the Israelis because they are the one in power...
So it's okay for the Arabs to hate Jews because Israel is somehow all-powerful? Don't the Arab regimes have any power? Paranoid, hyper-emotional non-sequiturs like this make the Israelis look all the more mature and rational.
"You know why. We all know why. They are supported by Hamas and wanted a confrontation, the deadlier the better."
Well ... I think you just revealed some anti-Islamic sentiment not based in facts here. That crap pisses me off just as much as anti-Israeli sentiment. A bigot is a bigot.
You know what what's in their heads and hearts, huh?
Well so do I. And this was the ordered execution of activists by the Israeli government no different from Hitler ordering the death of Jews. Natenyahu sent his death squads to kill innocent people, it's that simple.
I mean who needs facts? We can just indict others based on biased and that's somehow "truthful" in this disgusting world of lies upon lies upon propaganda.
--
"Then name a democracy in the world that is physicaly surrounded and powerfully outnumbered by sworn enemies declaring full intent --and actiing on it regularly-- to destroy that country, its democracy, and all its people."
Some describe the inhuman and immoral conditions placed on the Palestinians by the Israelis as the same situation.
Israeli has every right to defend itself, but if they violate international they do not get a pass unless one condones a fascist nation state being allowed to form unchecked. Laws apply to all, or they apply to none.
--
"Was Israel provoked? Yes. Did Israel kill innocent people? Yes. Was that incredibly wrong? Yes. Was everyone on those ships as innocent and humanitarian as they claim? N. F. W. "
Well who the hell said that? We are talking about 700 people.
What do think there are ... maybe 300 people on OS regularly? Can anyone claim we are all innocent humanitarians with a straight face?
The point and purpose of the Free Gaza Flotilla is to break the immoral blockade, it's like people sitting in the front of the bus for God's sake! When a law or policy is wrong, you break it!
That's the point here. If people were killed violating some law you don't support, like maybe some insane North Korea stuff, you would call it a tragedy and deem anyone trying to defend the killing a "monster" or worse.
Think about it, Sally.
--
"Why is keeping that land so important, aside from assuring Israel's survival as a nation? And why is the destruction of Israel deemed necessary for Arab supremacy over that land?"
I am just as critical to the unthinking bigotry of many in Hamas and Hezbola as I am of Zionist bigotry toward Moslems. Sorry, in my eyes you are both wrong.
They don't have any right to the land anymore, and it's time stop persecuting the people of Palestine with blockades and now murder of what is probably twenty people, old men shot point blank in the face and nineteen year old boys, killed for the sake of terrorism it seems.
Criticisms from an outsider this is, no doubt.
But if people are suddenly not allowed to speak about murder being committed by a nation state or any powerful group then we are all doomed.
There are just too many cases, all kept from the U.S. media because it's all biased nonsense (mostly). The woman being crushed by Israeli an bulldozer, he just "didn't see her" ... sure. More like he killed her daring to stand for the Palestinians instead of Israeli even if Israeli was wrong to be bulldozing a home in the first place.
--
You caught my attention with "reality check" here, but this all has nothing to do with what I call "reality" and everything to do with your opinion.
Just like Helen Thomas expressed her's.
Many thought, granted these are people who are not frothing partisans or zealots of some sort, that Obama might be the "magic key" to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict seeing how he is both friendly to both Israel and the Islamic world. But just like with so many other issues surrounding Obama, these people seem to think him a demigod of some sort that manifests everywhere and always gets what he wants every time. The bottom line is that just by engaging in dialogue with Arab countries Obama is now viewed skeptically by many Israelis as a result, which is in fact rather obvious intolerance and bigotry on behalf of those Israelis because in terms of policy he has done nothing to upset their interests or threaten their security in any way. It is highly unfortunate this is the case as well because it is rumored that many on both sides actually want the U.S. or NATO to step in for negotiation / peace talks. I don't know firsthand how true that might be, but I do know I'm right about the first part. If you so much as speak to an Arab certain Israelis distrust you, and it works in reverse I should point out that certain Moslems behave the same way regarding Jewish people and looking down on others for so much as talking with them.
http://open.salon.com/blog/platano/2010/06/08/helen_thomas_and_the_american_way_2
I don't know, Sally.
I've never supported this "death to" anyone / anywhere signs and I've yet to find a person who denies that those kind of signs are flown at Hamas rallies.
You admitted yourself that you know not everyone thinks like that. Getting rid of the scape goating always has to come internally and Hamas is hardly the first to Israel or the Jewish people their target for it. I can't fix Hamas any better than I can fix Natenyahu, but everyone gets held accountable for their actions. Not just some people that we don't like over there, but then leaving our own close connections untouched by consequence.
I would be of the opinion that it is a disservice to Israel to fail to be critical of her.
Really? It's a well-known fact that Hamas intends to destroy Israel. They said so themselves. Why is it "anti-Islamic" to acknowledge a fact about one particular group of Muslims?
And this was the ordered execution of activists by the Israeli government no different from Hitler ordering the death of Jews.
Yeah, right -- killing nine people is no diffferent from killing roughly six million. "Progressive Liberal," your recent posts aren't even coherent. Some of these hyper-emotional Israel-bashers really need to go to bed, before they make George W. Bush look intelligent (again). Seriously, some of Isreal's most emotional critics are starting to sound downright babyish.
a. I have, always, treated Sally with respect despite our differences of perspective; respect, which I don't and won't accord you, and
b. In case you didn't notice, I don't take my marching orders from you.
The State of Jerusalem:
http://open.salon.com/blog/platano/2010/06/09/the_state_of_jerusalem_1
Platano Verde
Simplistic:
I think that historically the problem was started by groups of Europeans, who thought that the area is free to take and to settle in. People who moved to the area either bought the lands of the native people or simply pushed them away by force. The modern state of Israel was created by colonialists from Europe. It is no wonder many Palestinians don't like Israel so much.
But I think that problems should be solved locally; people who during last sixty years moved to Israel are not going to go back to Europe, to Russia or to wherever from where they moved there, even if the rest of the world would ask them to do it?
Sometimes in the today's world it is for me difficult to understand that some people really believe strongly that for example their Jewish god is more true than other people's Islam god or that their religion is somehow better than others' belief on Buddha or Jesus or whoever. But we might need to accept that crazy behavior as a fact. We might need to accept as a fact even the crazy thing that some people think that they are somehow better people than Arabs, because they are Jews coming from Europe and that others are thinking that they are better people than Jews coming from Europe because they happen to be Arabs who have lived thousands of years in the area of Palestine...
So maybe the solution would be to create there small semi-independent states, where people believing in Islam religion and who are of Palestinian origin could live somewhat separately from Jews, who came there from somewhere?
Americans who are giving hundreds of millions of dollars as 'aid' for Israel to buy even more weapons... should maybe stop that crazy business and give instead that money for developing the whole area into a prosperous land where people wouldn't need to fight for bread?
Thank you for writing this. I've been writing about some similar topics lately so I clearly share your interest, though not remotely your experience with it. This is really well written, really important, and is one of the better posts I've read anywhere in quite a while.
Rated
The only way this conflict could be resolve is if, only if both parties agree on forming ONE SINGLE STATE with equal right for all its citizens. It's clear that Palestinians would be behind the Israelis with their budgets, but they would catch up later. This State could have Jerusalem as its capital. That would cancel the Jerusalem dispute right there, and it would give both parties common identity. The new country could be called The State Of Jerusalem, or The State of Abraham or something like that.
Platano Verde.
my post:
http://open.salon.com/blog/platano/2010/06/11/the_republic_of_abraham_israelis_and_palestinianscountry
Dear mothernotsowell
If you are the only person on the planet who has not observed a dramatic change in U.S. support for Israel under Bush v. Obama, you should perhaps reconsider your characterization of the sane as stupid.
As in jumping to conclusions based on ethnic or religious views and not facts.
Facts.
Facts disagree with the Israeli and Sally's position these were "terrorist ships."
No evidence, none.
So it's bigotry, pure and raw, when I hear this BS.
Same as calling all Mexicans criminals or all blacks lazy. Hell it's the same as calling all Jews a name.
"Yeah, right -- killing nine people is no diffferent from killing roughly six million. "Progressive Liberal," your recent posts aren't even coherent. Some of these hyper-emotional Israel-bashers really need to go to bed, before they make George W. Bush look intelligent (again). Seriously, some of Isreal's most emotional critics are starting to sound downright babyish."
Screw you, you losers on here with personal attacks just prove you need to turn off the computer and go read a newspaper.
You are scum, and you sound like a moronic racist teabagger or two I deal with.
Address the the point or STFU.
My comment - "I would be of the opinion that it is a disservice to Israel to fail to be critical of her."
Response - "Progressive Liberal, your recent posts aren't even coherent. Some of these hyper-emotional Israel-bashers really need to go to bed"
Sorry, but if you are going to be that stupid I have to point out this crap for all to see.
I'm tempted to further respond in ad hominem attacks, but such things are futile in nature.
Bottom line is I spoke my piece in plain English and someone is too stupid to read it or too dishonest to address it.
Either way, I can only reiterate what I said before:
Address the issue, or shut your damn face. Nobody gives a rat's ass for your cyber-harassment and flaming. A child or drunken fool could reproduce that, and I don't speak for myself when I say people who engage in it are the vile scum of the earth.
There is always room for ... an apology.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this. We all need a reality check. I appreciate that you took the time and effort to do this as well as you did. It's also wonderful hearing about your family's ties to Israel. Please keep me informed about your trip to Israel. I have (or had) family and friends there but we have lost touch.
"Nobody gives a rat's ass ..."
I do.
Your comments are destructive.