Saturn Smith

Orbital Matter
Editor’s Pick
SEPTEMBER 9, 2009 2:47PM

Health Care Address Live Blog

Rate: 35 Flag

OK, everyone.  I'm going to collect my thoughts and come up with something more, ah, cogent to say, less piecemeal.  I have enjoyed greatly the company, the comments, most of the controversy, and I'll be checking in as the night goes on, too.

Hooray!  You know, I'm feeling happier after this than I thought I would.


6:15: I'm trying to catch up with comments; going to check the headlines on the big news sites and see what's being said.  What are you guys watching? Anyone have a thrilling take away so far?

Both WaPo and NYT going with "Obama promises to deliver on health care."  Wall Street Journal offers this subhead: "Health Overhaul Cost Cut to $900 Billion; Obama Warns GOP, Offers Malpractice Deal"

 

6:10: I have to say, apparently the Republicans are at a significant audio/visual disadvantage tonight, as Boustany's voice was tinny and difficult to understand at some times, and he sounded, well, pretty nervous.  Did he lose a bet?

This is, uh, a terrible speech. Really.  Shorter Boustany: We can fix health care without doing evil.

Great!  We're all agreed.

6:08: 1).  All individuals should have access to coverage.

2). Individuals should be able to join together to get coverage.

3). We can provide assistance to those who can't afford a doctor.

4). More wellness care/prevention.

Hey, I have some good news for you, Boustany -- you're on board with the president here.  Time to leave your echo chamber and go home.

6:07: "Replacing your family's health care with government-run health care" would be bad. Uh -- did you listen to the speech before this?

No rest for the weary: Response from Boustany.

"I'm a heart surgeon with more than 20 years of experience... we agree much needs to be done to lower the cost of health care for all Americans."

"Afford is an important word."  Now we know his frame, too. 


So there we have it.  Half lecture, half town hall, with a nice splash of good, old-fashioned preaching at the end, replete with an amen from the crowd.


 

6:02 "I still believe we can replace acrimony with civility...  Here and now we will meet history's test."

The danger of too much government is matched by the perils of too little.  Yup. "When facts and reason are thrown overboard and timidity" takes over, when we can no longer have a reasonable discussion -- a nice description of the last few months.

5:59: If Joe Biden cries, everyone in the nation must take a drink.

5:57: I do not like that he said Chuck Grassley's name out loud.

Hello, Kennedy boys.

"The character of our country." I adore the reference to historical battles, anger past and present.

Also, please, is Orrin Hatch next to Olympia Snowe as the "sit down" enforcer?  If so, will he write a song about it?

5:52: "If you misrepresent what's in this plan, we will call you out."

PLEASE, GOD.  Mean that.  I'd like to see the White House get a spine, and maybe a blimp with a big neon sign.

"I will continue to seek common ground in the coming weeks... my door is always open.  But know this: I will not waste time with those who have decided it's better to play politics with this plan than to improve it."  Was that a Republican raising his hand to admit that's what he's up to?

I think that the arguments about cutting waste and practicing better medicine are valid but also very, very difficult to make -- it's very much a, "so if it's that easy, why haven't we done it before?" kind of argument. No one talks exactly about what's stopping companies from doing this right now, which is the hardest part.

I don't think this argument is well made yet, I really don't.  And until it is, the "this pays for itself" argument doesn't seem sound.

5:48: Ah ha, there it is.  Nice reminder that those who scare about Medicare have often voted to kill it.

Speaking to Seniors.  In this section, more than any other, there needs to be a deeply reassuring tone, and I'm not sure he's hit it completely.  "Not a dollar of the Medicare trustfund will be used to pay for this plan." The only thing this plan would eliminate is waste, fraud, and insurance company subsidies. 

HA!!  Nice reminder -- walked in the door to find this ugly, Republican debt.  

HEY ERIC CANTOR!  Knock off your TEXT MESSAGING during the PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS. 

5:45: I like the framing of this debate as "providing a choice."

"No bureaucrat gets between you and the health care you need."

The public option is a means to the end of achieving better health care, regulation of insurance.

Uh, what are those guys holding up in the back?

5:40: Public option -- no one would be forced to choose it; only an option for those who don't have it; only 5 percent would sign up.

Like any insurance company, public company would be premium dependent -- oh, nice, that's a great comparison between private and public universities, and one of the best explanations that I've heard.

Why is Feingold looking very unhappy?

"My guiding principle is, and always has been, that consumers do better when there's choice and competition." OK, everyone's standing.  "Unfortunately, in 34 states, 75% of the insurance market is controlled by 5 or fewer companies." And just 1 in Alabama. Nice facts.  I do so love facts. 

"I have no interest in putting insurance companies out of business -- I just want to hold them accountable." Yes!

5:35: Also, is that the first time a president has ever used "jacking up" in a speech?  I understand it's the automotive metaphor, but -- still.

I'm sorry, did a member of Congress just heckle the President of the United States? *

DUDE.  Death Panels HEAD ON.  "It is a lie, plain and simple."

Oh, go ahead and sit on your hands, Republicans.  

Thanks, Jodi, for posting the link to the White House text of the proposal: Jodi Kasten: The plan has been released by the White House.
See it HERE.

Now we get into the compulsory part -- irresponsible for people not to participate, therefore everyone has to carry basic insurance.  I think the auto insurance comparison is apt.  Businesses and individuals can get hardship waivers -- uh, and 95 percent will be eligible.  So: poor people working for small companies... ?

Part 2: Quality, affordable choices for those without insurance.  Companies get to compete for currently uninsured people.  Ah, nice, bringing in the fact that everyone in that room, deciding on the plan, is insured in just this way.

The exchange goes live in four years -- that should be a fun campaign.

Immediate coverage to be offered for the next 4 years, until the exchange comes online.  

5:30: "No one should go broke because they get sick."

Details.  Point 1: "Nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the plan or the doctor you have."  GOOD.  Repeat it, and then let's all get T-shirts, because SERIOUSLY.  No one seems to get this.

Against the law to deny coverage for a pre-existing condition.  Hoorah!  Against the law to drop coverage or water it down when it's most needed.  Double hoorah!  Arbitrary caps -- eliminated.  

5:27: "Some have dug into unyielding idelogical camps... The time for bickering is over. The time for games is past. Now is the time for action." 

I like that, but -- let's see it.

Here's the plan:

1. Security and Stability to those who have insurance

2. Insurance for those who don't.

3. Slow costs for businesses and government.

"The Senate Finance Committee announced today that it will move forward." No specific mention of Baucus... I'm intrigued.

"Build on what works and fix what doesn't."  Janet Napolitano, I share your lack of enthusiasm for that vague statement.

Cheers from the left for mentions of the Canadian system.  And not just at home.

5:25: Small businesses are forcing their employees to pay more for insurance... because of higher cost of health care. Still talking to the currently insured which, really, is the audience here.

5:20: Americans "willing and able to pay" are denied coverage -- again, a key point in the argument against "hey hippie, get a job," which is often the summary of right wing arguments.

"Those who do have insurance have never had less security than they do today" -- YES.  Good point.  The 180,000,000 insured Americans very much need this sales job.  This is a good time for an anecdote -- ah, yes.  

5:19: "not the first president, but determined to be the last" taking up health care, starting with Theodore Roosevelt.  Never hurts to mention a GOP favorite.

Hey, John Dingell. That's actually an interesting historical tidbit.

5:17: Kickoff.  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Bringing up the economic crisis as a credibility builder?  This seems a bit risky -- but I suppose now is the moment to celebrate the Fed saying the recession is over... Oh, focus on John Kerry.  What, is he looking for a job?

This sets up a very interesting context for the speech, but not unexpected -- he's been selling health care as part of a national economic solution since the campaign. I do think it's shrewd. I'm just not sure a lot of people buy it.

5:14: Did any parents of congresspeople keep their children home today?

Would love to know what Biden said. "I gotcher back, man," is my vote, though I give a second to, "Easy on the standing ovation lines, huh?"

5:10: "Madam Speaker, the President of the United States."  You know, that just doesn't get old.  The Madam part in particular.

Aw, John Boehner just looks delighted to be here.  Is someone sad to be (potentially) missing the rebroadcast of "Glee"?

Thank you, LPS, for clearing it up: in case of massive, uh, horror, Steven Chu is the next president of the United States.  UNLESS Robert Byrd isn't in attendance, which also seems likely.  Oh, there's Geithner.


 

Pretty sure Sebelius is having a heart-to-heart with Olympia Snowe.  Is that possible?

 I've seen LaHood, Napolitano, and Solis.  Is Geithner the missing cabinet member? There's Larry Summers and Christina Romer. Also haven't seen Steven Chu.

Agreed: lpsrocks: ok, because it must be said: Michelle looks Pretty in Pink.  | Also, Kathleen Sebelius.

5:03: What a night to be Hillary Clinton. Do you think she feels de ja vu? Also, who's the missing cabinet member, had anyone spotted the missing member yet?  I see Clinton, Holder, Gates, Sebelius, Locke...

Those folks next to Michelle Obama?  Here's a little list.  They include Senator Kennedy's wife and a personal physician friend of the Obamas', along with many people who've had their own terrible health care struggles.

4:59: Final thought: Who to watch.  This lady right here, Senator Olympia Snowe of Maine.  When she claps, feel a thrill:

 

 

 

She's the one next to Judd Gregg.

4:55: While we're still in run-up time, I'd like to join the chorus in saying that Lawrence O'Donnell deserves his own MSNBC show.  I find him much more reasonable -- and easy to listen to -- than nearly any of his counterparts.  The O'Donnell/Maddow pairing tonight might be the bifecta of broadcaster perfection.  Yes, I'm going to keep using the term bifecta over and over and over.

4:51: OK.  I'm ensconced at the house of friends who have both cable and wifi (the... bifecta?), and I've settled in to watch the speech and its coverage on MSNBC.  Here's how this works: I will be listening and typic frantic comments and observations as the speech goes on.  I'll also try and keep an eye on the comments as they come up and through and will refer to them as we go whenever possible.  Respond to me, respond to each other, respond just to the speech -- the idea is, at the end of the night, to have a collection of first-round thoughts that we can all review tomorrow, when we're wondering "how did I feel before the punditry took over?"

I should add -- refresh early, refresh often.  F5 will do it on almost any browser.


 

The New York Times (among others) has posted excerpts of the president's speech. Trying to find advance text on Boustany -- anybody seen it?

UPDATE (3:30 PST): Sarah Palin has posted a pre-buttal to President Obama's speech.  On Facebook.  Yup.  It calls for Medicare vouchers.  No more total coverage for you, American seniors!  The DNC went ballistic, and rightly so.  Woo.  Here's the best part from Palin:

One last thing: after President Obama's speech tonight, listen for which pundits use the words "false", "scary", and "risky" in describing the proposals I put forward. That's how you'll be able to tell who the White House counted as "allies" worthy of receiving its talking points.

I'd just like to say that I find Mrs. Palin's comments false, scary, and risky.  May I please now have my copy of the White House talking points and my Ally of Obama cape?

* Live blogging starts at, ah, let's call it ten 'til 5.*

* Apparently, the answer to that was yes, and Congressman Wilson of South Carolina was the one who shouted "It's a lie!"

Your tags:

TIP:

Enter the amount, and click "Tip" to submit!
Recipient's email address:
Personal message (optional):

Your email address:

Comments

Type your comment below:
I'll be watching...and OS is almost always on...so the combination works for me...
I bet they haven't asked Bobby Jindal to do it this time.

R
Ha! If only they had, I would totally make sure I had popcorn this evening.
YES! Smashing idea! You always were my favorite planet, Saturn.
maybe they'll ask Palin.....that would be worthy of two buckets of popcorn and a mighty large glass of vino.

I'll be watching - but I'm busy trying to channel some good vibes to Professor O to keep it simple, keep it on target, and use those tiny words and make sure it is just like the school speech, but with big teeth.
I'll be here with bells on and toes and fingers crossed! Whoopie!
Can't think of a better place than sharing your couch Saturn. You promise not to hog all the popcorn this time? eh? I'm tired of couch crack leftovers.
Thanks for live blogging the President's speech - it could be the most important speech he will have made to date. I'm not up for the Neocon party line response though as I'm full up of Fascist agitprop already. I can't wait to hear him give it to the Repug/Fascists with both barrels - long overdue.
I'm sick to the point of nausea of the outright lies,teabagers, birthers and the rest of the deceitful static that has been thrown up by the "disloyal opposition" with too little response from the Democrats. The Democrats need to speak up for the truth and the change we voted for. If they don't this country is history. Why vote if your vote counts for nothing.
I'm in. I was hoping someone would live-blog - so glad it's you.

Worse than Jindal, they've asked Rep Charles Bustany of Louisiana. Apparently, he is a surgeon, but I figure he will further embarrass my home state and spout the party line re: costs. He is also a Birther. blegh.
I have a work gig-- I'm glad you're blogging so I can read it afterwards.
No promises, bbd -- popcorn is like SaturnCrack. I am an addict.

I'm very intrigued by the Boustany choice, LPS. He seems like... well, like he might be a little crazy, but I've read very little so far.
I'll just send this excerpt along. This will be good for people who will not be able to watch the speech.

What you need to know is the "public option"... It's not that important anymore. If you thought the White House found it to be crucial to reform in June, now in September they really don't care if it is in the legislation or not.

Lack of a "public option" will not be a dealbreaker.

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/09/advance-copy-excerpts-of-obama-speech-on-healthcare/
Live coverage of White House on FaceBook w/real time chat.

http://apps.facebook.com/whitehouselive/
I just read the excerpt you linked to and I have to say i'm a tad disappointed. No public option that would be the needed competition for the insurance companies. Damn 'em! They are gonna win again. Maybe he has something up his sleeve?....one can hope, can't one?
Since when does Palin count in this argument? It's one thing for her to discuss energy policy (which is a stretch), but she has absolutely NO CREDIBILITY in this arena.

Yes, Ms. Palin, you are a dangerous, scary, and lying megalomaniac.
If we want to separate fact from fiction -- and I hope that's a goal -- please tune into FactCheck.org, a service of the Annenberg Foundation before, during and after the president's address. They set the record straight on misstatements on both sides of the aisle.

Some of their recent posts are:

Twenty-six lies about HR 3200
RNC's Bill of Rights for Seniors
Debunking the DNC's claim that Republicans voted to abolish Medicare...

This site has been my savior....

denese
Yet again, working on a Wednesday evening completely wrecks my plans to watch the President. This necessity to earn a living sure bites, sometimes!

I'm more than ever thankful though that Sarah Palin is no longer an elected official in this country. Especially that she's not the VP.

Mr. President, please, please please.... KICK BUTT, TONIGHT!
Be the tough Bad Ass President I voted for!
P.S. Saturn, I find your rings VERY chic.
The best news of the future comes from my senator, Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-OR). He states that there are not enough votes in the Senate to overcome a fillibuster, which means that the Senate will say no to the public option. However, the House has been strong on the public option, and its bill will probably/hopefully call for the public option.

The Conference Committee for both houses will meet, and agree to a bill that has a public option. At this point, the bills sent back to the House and Senate are considered budgetary bills, and are therefore not subject to a fillibuster, but can be passed by a simple majority vote.

Let's hope that this is the way it will go. It wouldn't hurt to call/email/visit your Congo/Sen and tell him/her that this is what you want to happen if the Senate says no, which it probably will.
ONL, Merkeley is my Senator, too! He seems like a good egg so far, eh? Reconciliation is pretty controversial, but certainly still on the table.
I like "bifecta"
Lest see how many lies Obama tels tonight.
I'm here! Seattle chiming in!
Welcome, Seattle! It makes me feel more justified in using West Coast time.
ok, because it must be said: Michelle looks Pretty in Pink.
I've seen teenagers at the mall do less mulling around doing nothing. I actually miss the trite commentary you get on broadcast stations, but I'm sticking with c-span.
@old new lefty & denese - thanks!!!
I'm watching with the Tween, so we have a somewhat skewed sartorial focus this evening.
Is it too much to ask to show up ON TIME?
@old new lefty - thanks...i needed to hear that!
@Saturn - yes, Pacific time - where are you?
per Tween: Jill [Biden] needs a new haircut.

also Tween: "yo,yo,yo Mr. Obama...you have to come out & talk to us"

attempting to identify curly-haired lady in hot pink blazer/black skirt.
I've been on that floor - it is freaking amazing!
@DJohn For realz...
Steven Chu is the Cabinet member in the undisclosed location, per my Twitter sources.
Janie - and tequila
Hillary! Hillary! Hillary!
He's beginning at 7:14 here. What we used to call the Quaalude minute. Hope it's not an omen.
What is it about Nancy that drives me a little nutballs?
Has Baucus been euthanized yet?
5:10: "Madam Speaker, the President of the United States." You know, that just doesn't get old. The Madam part in particular.

WORD!
With all the cheering, you'd think they actually like him instead of being the obsteperous fools they've seemed to be. Or are there a whole lot of reasonable ones we just haven't heard from/about?
I'm here.
BRING BACK THE PUBLIC OPTION!
I'm here. Listening to the opening.
So he is going to toot his own horn before he starts in on health care.
BULLSHIT lie.
@ Kate...Nancy bugs me too! I want to snap her!
ARGH - "responsible homeowners?" AGAIN? Where are the statements about responsible business???
Nancy, Hillary and Michele - all in pink.
"I am determined to be the last!" LIKE IT.
Joseph Cole - definitely not pink.
So far, so good. Tough. Leader-like.
Hillary's and Nancy's bright red suits sure make a statement - I'm just not sure which one
We are the only industrial nation....

a great point
5:17 pm. Saturn, agreed. BUT he also needs to establish and control the narrative.
Remember the Bush playbook - we were winning the war for years & the SURGE worked.
He also needs to walk the fine line between being too corporate-friendly and too progressive/socialist, too.
Good outline...he's pulling it around...only advanced democracy, advanced hardship for millions of people in a wealthy nation. It could happen to anyone.

Problem for everyone.
Cost too much to buy on your own? Then tell us how to make it affordable without a gov involvement.
healthcare shouldn't be a profit making venture
pelosi looks a bit rode hard and hung up wet...she must be working night and day without any rest
For once...Getting real about insurance companies
Almost sounds like a Democrat.
So he is going to tell us the horror stories of our system but will he tell us the horror stories if other countries? NO.
it took awhile for those repubs to stand up!
So doctors should work for free. Brilliant theory.
great point - mc is deficit problem
cheers for Canada!
lpsrocks nice to see you here again
nice to see some looney tunes posting comments here Saturn...comic relief
Holy crap, here it comes? Mentioned both ends of the spectrum...
Cole, it works in other countries. And doctors are very well paid.
HELP, I'M A SOCIALIST NOW!!!! AIYEEEE!!!!!!
So all of a sudden he is not for single payer. Interesting. Only because he cannot get it. He clearly campaigned on single payer and clearly wants it. Why cant he just admit he have that.
I'm with Kelly, I love it when Lisa shows up
well now there's a truth, could like this part
the time for bickering is over....yeah, right.
The only people being protected now are Kaiser Permanente, United Health Care, Cigna....

Keeping things as they are is WRONG.
Horrors in other countries?
Like what?
70 million people with no ability to seek care?

Oh wait... that's US.
Explain to me how anyone gets paid if there is no profit.
Great comment on the politics! and games! and a call to the action!!!! YESSSSSS!!!!!
"The time for bickering is over."

(hopefully)
Good idea. Make the other side stand and applaud.
The plan has been released by the White House.
See it HERE.
No change requirement- important
Horrrs in 0other countries. Are you telling me its works perfect everywhere else. ANd the number here is NOT 70 million.
Cole, have you ever looked at other countries' systems? (In Canada, we pay for health care thru taxes. No bleeding-off of $ for insurance company profits. We pay a bit less per capita for health than the U.S. - and we cover everyone.)
Maybe it's the red suit, or the big glassy eyes, but I've just realized that during his speeches, Nancy Pelosi smiles at Obama like Nancy Reagan used to smile at Ronnie during his.
Against the law does not make it free to cover pre conditions. Where does the money come from.
hi friends - hi Kelly, Barry - I'm soooo ready to rumble again. Good to be back on OS. Love seeing you guys & love Saturn's brilliant & real-time analysis/commentary.
Ok I am a wienie but this is so important to me and people have dissed Obama so badly I am watching comments and will watch speech later when not so tired. Tell me it is working. People are being decent.
Ending lifetime caps would have saved three of my family members.

I don't give a CRAP about how everyone can keep making money off of other people's illnesses. I care about how people keep breathing. All people.
No going broke because you get sick, preventative care ... more security, more stability. If you have HC.

1st part. Look forward to seeing this part.
just in case anyone hasn't noticed - John Boehner is one freaky looking dude. And NOT in a good Freaky Troll kind of way.
and Schumer is shwarmy as hell, but I love him!
Hi everybody, how do you do this live blogging thing? I've got the Ben and Jerry's; that's a requirement, right?
Co-opted McCain...
BIG SCORE! McCain Thumbs UP!
Hello all. I feel comfy watching this speech among friends.

He just gave McCain some credit. Smart move, despite it all.
Boehner doesn't have a boner - what he's got is a permanent sneer.
OOOHHHH...REQUIRED???? That goes against previous comments...little rough on that one. Snowe is smiling though.
Ypu dont have t give a crap, but what makes yu think doctors
want to study for years, of investors want to build a hospital for no profit to keep you alive. Are you building a hospital? Why do you think someone else is going to do it for you?
That was an apparently unintended funny moment. uh oh.
"a few details to be ironed out" - laughter (ironic laughter, I guess)
"No one should go broke because they get sick." I'm sure Joseph disagrees with that; it's profit he's concerned about, and wringing every penny of profit out of people is what our current system is designed to do. According to Joseph, profit is the only possible motivator for anything worth a damn. Profit for the corporate sector, and let people who don't have any money die. It's the American way!
First laugh of the evening. Some things to "iron out." Ha.
You're right Joseph. It's 86.7 million in the past two years. See that info here.

One is too many.
One SINGLE grandmother, mother, father, brother, sister or perfect stranger dying because they couldn't see a doctor or be treated is too many for me.

America is just as able as all the other countries that have universal health care. I believe in my country.
yes....go after those bogus claims...yeah!
wow, madatory buy-in .. I love that .... it's all about cost ...... can you say Massachusetts? I think it works
YOU GO OBAMA! I'm clapping my ass off! IT IS A LIE.
btw - Obama NEVER campaigned for single-payer, asshat(s)
Bringing them to the mats!!!
YAY! "IT'S A LIE, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!"
Cole - go look at other countries, chrissake. We in Canada pay our doctors very well and support the hospitals. What we DON'T do is provide obscene amounts of money to insurance companies...
Repubs look tired and old and mean and seated and are yelling!!!
is it just me or do Boehner, Cantor & the third pasty-white dude look like the Three Monkeys - see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil
ohmygod

did someone just yell Liar???
HOLY SHIT--Which asshole Congressperson is shouting Liar to the POTUS on the floor. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.
A lie plain and simple! Was that a reference to Palin and the other dementoids? Poor Sarah.
According to me I want to go to a doctor and hospital that feels like he is making money the way he wants it. I dont want a doc that is pissed off, too busy, and not making enough money to give a damn about me.
I want a doc that knows he will lose my business if I don't like his service.
Bunch o' those asshats sitting on their hands. Some shouts from the peanut gallery.
nice heckle job republican asshat
I wish they had shown Grassley's face when he talked about the freaking death panels
Wow. How about the dude yelling "Lie!" Sheesh.
OMFG heckling to the President from the Congress???????????
Boehner is a sourpuss who is upset because he's missing his tanning salon appointment right now.
I can't believe he's getting real......
Insurance folks suck! PERIOD!!!
Death panels charge would be laughable if [Senator C. Grassley hadn't said it to his constituents]
Hey, Cole: Why are so many doctors on board with health care reform?? Just asking.
Cole, last comment to him-who-will-not-hear - our Canadian doctors are very well paid and all that I've dealt with have been entirely cheerful.
Yeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhaaaaaaawwwwwwww!!!!!!!!
he HAD to go Public Option after insurance requirement.
Someone heckled the president? Hard to hear this even in comments.
He's mentioned "public option"!!!!
That is the biggest fucking lie of all. Why deosnt he promise that if the PO starts losing money (and it will) that he will kick it out. But he will bail it out. Period no matter how much it costs.
Ha, some Repub almost seemed moved to clap, but at last moment just rubbed his hands together instead...
Halleluia! Public option!!!!!
Cole - no offense, are you listening to him? Or are you to set on what you are fixated on? I tell you, those-for-profit docs have done little good for me with severe illness over the last 10 years. So, I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Open your mind up, please!

The repubs look dear in the head lights!!!
@Lainey: HOLY SHIT--Which asshole Congressperson is shouting Liar to the POTUS on the floor. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.

I am hoping it was an idiot Staffer or press person. There are more people in the building than just the Senators & Representatives.

OR, Biden is throwing his voice?

OR, the @msnbc camera/mic staff have Tourette's?
thanks Saturn...this is great!
Lindsay Graham couldn't decide if he should clap. I do that sometimes when I'm watching my son's baseball and accidentally clap for the other teams runs.
If you've found a doctor that isn't pissed off, overworked, overextended and paying at LEAST two people to deal with insurance companies, please publish their name and number, I'm sure all of us would love to find one.
Can't back down!!!!!...Allllright
Oh yeah, Oh yeah. The Dems are gettin' rowdy.
"won't back down...provide you with a choice"

Great. (Plus - so many women dressed in red or pink - wanna be seen at home, I guess.)
YOU ROCK PRESIDENT OBAMA!!! THERE IS SNOWE!!!
This is IMPT and I hope it doesn't get lost in the hoopla; I hadn't understood this before:

The public option will NOT be subsidized.
"How to pay for this plan." [crickets]
That spending cuts comments will bite him on the ass, I fear.
oohh oooh, just noticed that Mr. President is wearing cufflinks :-)
Myriad, I had a comment for Joseph Cole, but his very nice doctor has obviously not diagnosed his hearing and reading problems.
Cantor looks like he's tweeting or playing solitaire on his iPhone.
Now is when he should bring up the new information about how Bush's tax cuts cost MORE than health care.
I think this is going to play well in the media....except the obvious exclusion. Great way to swing moderates.
I am listening to every word. A PO will cost money, it will not be self sustaining just based on premiums paid by the people. It will eaat up untold tax money. But he wont admit that. He os not stupid. he is just a spinning. PO will cos lest than an employer pays for you and your employer who IS profit driven WILL drop you , pay the fine ans send you on to you only choice PO. As insurance companies lose customers their numbers will cause them to raise rates. Thus a cycle that leads to nothing but PO.


And now he is going to tell me he can celan up medicare waste. Bullshit. Will never happen.
FINALLY, an answer to the botched prescription legislation.
some people are just blinded by their paradigm of hatred, prejudice and/or racism. well, guess what? you'll benefit from the revised health care too. I do not, however, expect any haters to acknowledge it, ever, or thank anyone for it.
Dagger to the black heart of the Repubs
In case anyone missed it, ERIC CANTOR is a DICKWAD!
Late to the party, but here. He's hitting it out of the park.
Oh, Medicare will be FINE! All the folks who don't want the government meddling in their health care will surely decline their benefits - saving billions. Right?
@LPSRocks; that's a dickwad-heavy crowd he's talking to.
10$ to the first one to summarize the last 6 weeks as "Rope-A-Dope" on the GOP.
So far so good, except for the sourpusses in the repub ranks. (And smirky Lieberman ...)
Joseph, seriously- go check out my blog, I've documented my family's healthcare experiences in some depth. Ran into one of my mother's doctors last night, and she not only remembered my name, but asked after the family, 5 months after the last time she saw us. Does that sound like a doctor who is pissed off and unhappy to see patients to you?

Two of my cousins are doctors in another province- they are very well paid, I can assure you.
fuck you for calling me a racist. You are an asshole. And I nor you will benefit from anything run by the gov. You are too stupid to get that.
I've always mourned the fact that we don't have a show like "Commons Question Hour" - evidently that is turning around.
thank you peppermint, Janie, and Myriad!
Dorinda, when he said that no 'illegal immigrants' would be covered someone yelled out "lie" or "liar." I'm guessing it was a House member.

Of course every dang one of the proposed bills has language that explicitly says "No illegal immigrants will receive health care coverage from anything in this proposal."

They bills have always said it, and always will.... but try to tell the crazies that.
reached across the aisle on national tv
There's the war and tax cut money shot.

YAYYYY!
Saving lives in the next ten years to cost less than killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan...
"My door is always open, BUT ... "
way to call out special interests...
More Rope-A-Dope.........Call this Rope-A-Dope and Back-To-Hope.

I hope it works. He's making the GOP goats.
I have my own health care experiences. I am severely ill and I DONT want the gov to help me with it.
I WANT to but insurance, not a damn car or iphone.
You dont getit . I WANT to pay for the best I can get.

Spinning again. In the last 10 minutes medicare has magically be reformed. It is a guaranteed fact. Wasted money found. IT is form the mouth of Obama so it is true. Right.
He will accept what he gets. Fortunately he is not dictator Obama.
Jodi, be careful what you ask for (re the commons question period) :)
oh oh, invoking Ted...
Sharing story time. Ted Kennedy time. The finale.
Pulling out dead Ted, I see.
Joseph, I have the best healthcare, and I don't have to buy it. That is how it works in civilized democratic nations. As the President said at the beginning, your country is the ONLY one that is failing on this front.

I am sorry you are sick. You should not have to worry about shopping for healthcare or paying for it out of pocket during this time. THAT should be the last thing on your mind.
Myriad - nice try to mix up the issues.
BTW how much did it cost for one of Saddams sons to shoot somebody in the head for no reason. Not much. Bullets a re cheap.
The war has NOTHING to do with this.
Aren't the expressions on the Rethugz' faces priceless? I read disdain for change, sullen hatred, disingenuous skepticism, rotten corruption and smug complacency. It's like a gallery of everything that sucks most about this country.
"...the character of our country..."

Really saying good stuff.
President Obama launched the #STFUMachine. Health care reform will cost less than unnecessary war and tax cuts for wealthiest
Joseph, there are millions of people just like me that care about you and believe you deserve better. People are going bankrupt. That's not okay. People are dying. That's not okay. We are spending the money already. We CAN take care of everyone. We all deserve that.

Anger and fear do not provide hope, change or progress.
They breed more anger and fear.
Be brave enough to hope and work for something better.
We all have it in us, we just have to shed our cynicism and do the hard work.

I care about you.
Will you care about me?
Oh PLEASE. Bullshit. Ted Kennedy IMAGINED what it was like to be uninsured. Poor example. The Kennedys will ever feel the fear I experience. I'm not saying he's a bad guy - but he's not the litmus on average Joe and Jane fear.
Cole, that was Obama's comparison.
per Nana's comment; I also read jealousy. I think all those guys were viscerally jealous of Clinton and now they are jealous of Pres. Obama
Damn. We DID elect a Democrat!
"dangers of too much government matched by the dangers of too little...when any efforts to help people are attacked as unAmerican..."
lots of good stuff
Okay, I am crying now. He is talking about feelings from the national podium. I can look up to him.
4 years. That's the only thing sticking out in my head. 4 years. Man, I better quit smoking. Wait. I don't smoke. I'm going to start. I'm too nervous!
Jodi, you're a better person than me! Blessings on you!
I want to believe I will get the care I need....
He risked it all and hit it hard!
Do all presidents say "god bless you and america" etc? Don't get that. Don't like hearing that.
And THIS Saturn is why we love you. And why we love Joe Biden.

5:59: If Joe Biden cries, everyone in the nation must take a drink.
He knocked it out of the park there in the last 5 or so minutes. Seemed like you could hear a pin drop.
Oh, and Joseph, when my father had colon cancer last year, he was taken care of immediately. There were complications because of his high blood pressure and he had to spend weeks in the hospital. He is 76. Never once did my family consider money. Never once did someone tell us what treatments he could or couldn't have. They got it all, and there is a 98% chance that it will NOT reoccur.

And let me repeat...NEVER once did we consider money during that difficult time. NEVER once did we have to deal with an insurance company. NEVER once did we feel that his CHOSEN doctor didn't have his best interests at heart.

I truly hope you have as good an experience as my family did. Namaste
Myriad, Jodi is better than most people who breathe. Much better than me. I have little empathy for haters and racists.
Brady - you think you hav the best health care. How do you know you do. Have to been to my docs. I think they are absolutely incredible.
I dont wnat your doc. Nobody knows who has the best. And Obama cant know that there wont be some loss of service. You are equating with everyone being covered with everyone getting exactly what yo uand I have now. I dispute that.
It will average out to be something less than it is now if run by gov.
I believe it will remain great without PO and I am wiling to pax taxes for the poor to those evil insurance companies. That will be better for all in terms of actual quality of service. Great docs who get paid for being great. Im not against helping. I will pya for your insurance before I get put in PO.
Get it. I WILL PAY for you to be serviced by the private market. NOT the gov.
Go Jodi! Bless ya...cause I've been biting my lip...
Jodi - I love your approach, we are all in this together. Way to take the high road!!! I appreciate that, try to do it often, and rarely see it in others. THANK YOU!!!
I have been saying the Dems needed to replace the Republican's poisonous phony populism with real economic populism. I think he did that here. Let's see how it rolls out, but I bet this changes the dynamic bigtime....IF they follow through.
Here comes the Repub response. Another Louisianan who sounds like Howdy Doody.
De Niro exists the stage.....Chuckles the Clown begins his act.
Joseph, I can see that you cannot possibly imagine a system different than your own. And for that, I feel sorry for you. It matters not to me how your country figures this out.

Good luck with your health and Godspeed.
By the way......Who's in charge of digging up these GOP rebuttal relics? Dr. Leaky?
We can't wait any longer!!! The old, stale "too big government" argument is over. This is just old and stale and over. Get on board. You never brought original ideas because you were in the lobbies' pockets...
I'll make this easy. Boustany = Jindal lite. FAIL!
Did they listen to the damn speech????
"WE hope he's serious???" You damn right he's serious and so are we! Repug fool! Taking freedoms? We have no freedom without health care.
Is this guy off the Shopping Channel? Is that how you find your doctors there? sheesh
and OMG - is that the WIDEST collar you've ever seen?
Thank you EVERYONE for showing up here, no matter what your opinion is. I am grateful - most especially Saturn for hosting. THANKS!!!
I think Boustany is a Forensic Apologist.

He should have borrowed some of Boehner's bronzing creme.
I cannot listen to the Repub Dr. spokesperson. Olbermann says he is a birther and has been sued three times for malpractice and tried to buy a lordship. Oh my.

Thanks Saturn, and all. I'm off to watch Top Chef and get my bearings. I hope this turns out well.
Boustie didn't say anything, but at least he didn't do it as creepily as Jindal...
Joseph Cole: You do realize that cops, firemen, politicians, teachers, in some cases doctors, and countless other professionals for for non profit institutions and still receive salaries. Doctors can and will get paid. Pay is just worked in as an operating expense rather than a fee for service structure as it is currently.
Im a hoody doody too. Born and raised. But that explains everything doesnt it.

BTW, I suggested to one of my liberal friends here in Austin years ago that people should get to together to for their own insured "group" and negotiate for the same rates as insured people.
His response.
I alos siggesed that a law be passed that a doc or hospital cannot charge an uninsured person any more that they would charge an insured person. That alone would be a HUGE savings.
Example. I get a blood test. Lab fee, $200. Insurd rate, $20.
My copay $5. Now yes I get to pay five cause im sinsured. But wouldn't it be a HUGE savings. for the uninsured to only pay the same 20 the la get anyway instead of the 200.
It that not a reasonable reform. ANd I have 2 doctor friends that saod they would not appose that. They make the same money on 90% of patients.. They wont mind if 10% get to pay the same contracted rate.
Now seriously and respectfully, is that not a reasonable idea. My liberal friend just says NO, hell no. Is not single payer so forget it.

Im not saying it is the whole fix, Im saying its 2 ideas that have merit that could keep it pout of the gov hands.
lpsrocks,

I thought that too. wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide collar.
Time to watch the Tudors. I think they had universal healthcare even back then. ;)
olberman just named the heckler who said "You lie." I think he said it was a Congressman from Indiana. Wow.
Hey I just saw that on Olbermann will be my Senator, Sherrod Brown. Watch it; he's a cutie. He's got that awshucks rumpled thing going on.
AP reporting that Congressman Joe Wilson (R-SC) is the asshat who shouted "You Lie" to the POTUS during his speech

Wow! Do they know no shame?
How did I know that he would channel Kennedy? I must be psychic. I can't wait until all those college kids who are barely able to pay for their education find out they will be REQUIRED to buy healthcare coverage. Obama stepped in it with that one. If the government tries to force someone to buy health insurance it will go to the Supreme Court.
Janie, you're compassionate to incoherent fools too. Kudos.
Big thanks to Saturn for hosting tonight.
This can change our country radically for the better if we will come together and work for the common good. Gathering to see that not everyone believes we are doomed is the best thing we can do.

What if we had given up because women's suffrage, racial equality, universal primary education, government subsidized loans for college, medicare, medicaid and oh, yeah... every single government program paid for by taxing the public and redistributing money to things that make the country better - was just too HARD?

We can do this.
I'm going to go tuck my children into bed and enjoy some hope.
Much love to everyone.
Joseph, I really cannot relate. I've never paid for a medical procedure in my life. Not once. Ever. I find the discussion of paying for basic healthcare exceedingly repulsive. It just doesn't fit in my 48 yrs of experience. And yet, doctors in our country are exceptionally good. Our infant mortality rate is in the top 10, while the US is close to 50th. And every single person in my country is has access to healthcare. I LOVE knowing that my family, friends, neighbours and even advisaries are taken care of. That is civilized.
"Explain to me how anyone gets paid if there is no profit."

Joseph Cole, I think you have no understanding at all of what the term "non profit" means. I work for a private, non profit organization, and I can assure you that all of our employees get paid, many quite handsomely.
Great job Saturn! I've been reading the transcript as it gets updated on CNN, but I really enjoyed your commentary!
I began tivo-ing it when he got heckled because I could not believe my ears. Are people that badly mannered that they would heckle the President in that chamber?! I want to know who did that.

I began yelling at the tv. When the repubs held up those stupid papers and looked so snarky and ill mannered, smirking like kids at an assembly making fun of the Principal I wanted to reach through the tv and slap them.

You can disagree - you can have different politics, but do not disrespect the person speaking when they have the floor.

Professor O did a fabulous job. Small sentences. Emphasis in all the right places and that shout out to the village idiot, Palin was perfect.
Joseph Cole,

We've done that here, with our major hospitals - negotiated that they charge the going insurance rate for uninsured people. We didn't have to legislate it, but perhaps we should, as any new hospital president could undo it.
I can't blog and listen at the same time. Well, I could if the president speaking was W. But Obama demands all my attention, so I gave it to him and I think he FINALLY hit it out of the park. The SC congressman who heckled him, Eric Cantor who texted, and the asshole quack who gave the rebuttal didn't even spoil it for me. Now we know what he will and won't sign. COngress, get going and get a bill out NOW.
Thanks, Saturn, it was great fun. And, yes, I feel better, too.

He laid it out pretty succinctly and I hope it can be done. He was speaking to the Blue Dogs and a few Repubs who might be open to doing what is needed.
Excellent commentary. I listened on the radio which helps me focus on the content v. being distracted by the clothes and expressions, but I liked getting your impressions.
Bill - i realize that. And cops, teachers and fireman dont get paid enough. So lets pay docs not enough too. This is straight from my cousin ,a anesthesiologists . A heart surgeon gets paid $1500
by medicare for a 4 hour triple bypass + 90 days of follow up visits.
I bet you would have guess hat it was a lot more right.
That is not a lot for 4 hours of a highly skilled person that you hope really is highly skilled. And he as to pay lots of overhead out of that. My cousin pays 200K a year in mal practice insurance.
That is true not rhetoric.
BTW I think cops and the other should be paid more. And we shuld pay more to get better cops. Most all are good. Be we all know the stories of the bad one. Well lets pay them a loot more and weed out the punks with an axe to grind.
Well I dont want a doc being unhappy and feeling financially stressed and worried about being sued.
My cousin was sued. He had zero culpability
but still had to be hassled. Why . He was the only doc that signed he name clearly so the patients lawyer named him first before not even knowing who he was. So his insurance go up.

Why cant you all see it that docs that are the best and happy are the doc you want.

That that happen to you in your job?
Brilliant. But I'm a little sick to my stomach that he is called a liar in the chamber from one of the chamber members. Really. I'm feeling kind of sick.
Watching CNN, and McCain is saying (to Larry King) yes, I agree everyone should have health care...BUT...$$$

Other countries can do it. You guys can do it. (And those other countries have happy doctors, too, christ.)
Haha, McCain can't get out of the Palin thing... Calling the death panel a lie was "unnecessary" and "partisan" - huh!

Okay, I'm going away now...
If you figure out why Feingold is unhappy, let me know. Good liveblog coverage; thanks for doing it.
Joseph Cole:

The concept of "non profit" does not determine how much a doctor can be paid. I already addressed that, and one other commenter addressed that.

Let me put if differently. Profit and pay can be de-linked. They are regularly now. There are institutions which pay HUGE salaries but dont necessarily pull a profit. This is not small business microeconomics. This is LARGE business microeconomics. It does not impact what a doctor can be paid. There was a country once called the United States of America that had all doctors as non profit before the Reagan administration. Do you think doctors only started making money since 1981? Dont argue what you dont know Joseph. The proposal is valid.
Saturn, I second your idea for Lawrence O'Donnell's own show.
I'm glad you feel better. My reaction to the speech was not so positive. I think the plan as outlined won't work and I'm pissed that we voted for Obama and are getting McCain's plan. At least he's on board about the mandate. But I live in MA and this plan is modeled on that. I can tell you right now it won't cut costs. And it doesn't address a lot of the issues that will come out of the woodwork as soon as they try to put it into play. 1) you'll still have to subsidize patient care for illegal immigrants, and that's substantial burden in the border states 2) there's no actual oversight of the industry or additional regulation, so they'll stay up to their old tricks - it's too profitable for them not to. 3) There aren't enough doctors to go around - the AMA has been carefully keeping the number of docs down for a quarter century and the HMOs have been incenting docs into specialites rather than primary care.
It just makes me sad. I had hope ... even through august. But the more I've learned the unhappier I've gotten. And this took the cake.
mah- can you really say that he didn't spin one fact that he cant really be sore of. Is t a foregone conclusion that he can save money in dedicare. Can he really promise I wont lose my insurance if the PO is cheaper fro my employer. It is a lie not to be intellectually honest.
He has the spin pulpit and no one gets to ask a question. He has said so many times that I can keep ,y insurance and he is smart enough o know that a PO could drive my employer to drop me and he wont even admit it. This is just like lying.
Are you not aware that he will fine employers for no covering people. If the "fine" which is really the cost of putting me on PO is less then insurance, my employer will drop me. Cant you see that?
JK you must be repulsed every time you go to the doc. Who do you think is paying for it? You are unless you pay no taxes.
Did you really think it was free?
This guy is my new hero: South Carolina Republican Rep. Joe Wilson shouted "You lie!" after Obama had talked about illegal immigrants. I thought Pelosi was going to have a stroke. That was the best part of the speech.
Saturn, thanks for hosting this! It was great to be among friends and a fool. And thanks for your final portion! I feel better. Go Obama! Keep those cats in line! Let's get HC reform NOW!!!
Joseph Cole, the problem is not that we don't have good doctors practicing good medicine in this country. Or that we don't have advanced techniques, and innovative cures. We emphatically do.

The problem, for the uninsured and for some of the insured as well, is gaining ACCESSS to these doctors and the care they provide at a price that won't cost them a month's rent. Or worse, their life savings, if they've got something serious.

Doctors are frustrated with our existing system, too. They may want to try experimental new procedures they believe will help their payments, only to have the patient's insurance provider say "nein!" When the insurance companies won't pay for a potentially helpful procedure and the patient can't afford it out of pocket, the doctor's hands are pretty effectively tied.

Nobody should go broke because they get sick. And an insurance company should not be able to fleece them because they are, either.

Speaking of doctors, maybe you should go see yours. Maybe he can get your head out of your butt. Not everyone here is as nice as Jodi.
DJohn - I did not hear that because I was typing. So I am going to assume that Obama said either the number of uninspired does not include Illegals or more lilely he said the the PO would not cover them.
If it was the latter then he deserved to be called a liar. You know damn well if we went to single payer or some PO illegals will get health care. If he is adamant that we wont then were is the wording in the law to specifically call that out. Lets not be stupid to no know the intentions of Obama, Pelosi and all the other liberals in the gov. You know damn well the intention and what will happen.
Joseph, did I say it was free???? I pay taxes, and one of the things I pay for is healthcare. I just don't see it. And I don't have to worry about what I pay at the time of service. I am also self-employed. My system give me the freedom to do that. Your system shackles employees to bloated corporations and crushes the entreprenurial spirit you boast so loudly about.

Please educate yourself sir. You can start here and when you are done there, please go here.

The econmics of your system do not work. That is simple math. I have been nothing but polite to you. But you have tired me out. You are unwilling to consider that EVERY OTHER DEMOCRATIC MODERN COUNTRY IN THE WORLD treats healthcare as a BASIC human right.

You are obviously happy to continue to live in a Banana Republic. I am glad you like being owned by a bunch of corporate theives. I'll be sure to buy stock.

Enjoy your life sir. I know I will enjoy mine.
Holy crap, they are still running the advertisement that has the Canadian woman with the brain tumor whose story has already been more than debunked here in Canada. She is near being run out of town for that bunch of lies. Gad, what a bunch of lies.
And Joseph, I am never repulsed to visit a professional. But I am always repulsed by ignorance.
Whew, Janie, glad in a way that you stopped being *understanding* to Mr. C.

Yeah, that brain tumor ad - I've seen it at least twice this evening since the speech.
Myriad, as you know, you can only push polite Canadians so far before we stop being polite. And there is nothing to try my patience more that blind bloody ignorance. ::gah::
They ratcheted up the ads today scaring the senior citizens out of their remaining wits! Wow !ad that lady from Canada telling us all to be careful... why is she pouring over the border to advise us against her system?
Hate ads.
JOE Wilson, JOE Cole, JOE the non-plummer? What's you with you JOE'S?
Traveller1...it is a LIE. Let me get you the links to the truth. Our news media made hay of her and her story.
From The Ottawa Citizen:

Holmes has become the darling of conservatives and the stop-public-health-care movement in the United States. She's testified before Congress, been on Fox TV as well as CNN, and her story is retold on hundreds of right wing blogs. She's now doing a nasty TV ad for Patients United Now, a Republican-led group opposed to Obama's reforms. You can see the ad at www.patientsunitednow.com. The group is spending almost $2 million on it to target politicians in Washington.

For a person living with cancer, the idea that someone's care could be unreasonably delayed is truly scary. It also doesn't reflect the experience I've had or the experiences that have been shared with me by so many other patients. Even CNN interviewed Doug Wright, a more typical patient in Toronto who is receiving very speedy treatment for his cancer.

Still, I found Holmes tale both compelling and troubling. So I decided to check a little further. On the Mayo Clinic's website, Shona Holmes is a success story. But it's somewhat different story than all the headlines might have implied. Holmes' "brain tumour" was actually a Rathke's Cleft Cyst on her pituitary gland. To quote an American source, the John Wayne Cancer Center, "Rathke's Cleft Cysts are not true tumors or neoplasms; instead they are benign cysts."

There's no doubt Holmes had a problem that needed treatment, and she was given appointments with the appropriate specialists in Ontario. She chose not to wait the few months to see them. But it's a far cry from the life-or-death picture portrayed by Holmes on the TV ads or by McConnell in his attacks.

...oh, and now she wants our system to pay for this...
The Kennedy part of the speech was poetic -- a long segment with no applause. You could hear a pin drop.
Just thought I'd throw out the idea that by Joseph Cole's logic, Bernie Madoff would by all accounts be the best investor ever! He was rich and happy (before being exposed as a greedy, lying, thieving scumbag) - what else could possibly matter! Only money can make the world go around.

BTW - great job, Saturn and all. Wish I had caught this when the speech was airing.
Nice work, Saturn. And for those of you who think what Congressman Wilson did was wrong and reprehensible, check out my blog.

http://open.salon.com/blog/tony_wang/2009/09/09/pissed_off_at_joe_wilson_heres_what_to_do

Folks, do what I suggest in that blog post and you will get your payback.
dustbowl - are you proud of yourself. Your statement is absolutely
absurd and has nothing to do with anything I have said.
This is typical response from liberals like you.
Brilliant.

Why don't you respond to something I have said.
Like the possibility that PO will undercut what private insurance can offer employers, thus leading everyone to be dropped by employers. Explain to me why Obama can promise that.
Of course you don't care because you want the PO for everyone

Why cant you address the fact that covering everyone does not logically imply it has to be done by the gov. I prefer to use tax money to buy private insurance for those that cant afford. That is a point of view. I would rather deal with an insurance company than the gov. It is a valid desire. Of course to you is is just stupidity.

I don't beilive that PI can be self sustaining or that medicare cleanup cann pay for "most" of it as Obama says. Just my feeleing
but what do you care because it it ends up not being sustaining so what , right.

I have a dear woman friend that is a ex military doc. Her dad is a vet and she treated vets herself. She knows what she had to do and how her dad is treated. She is liberal and hates this idea. She has told me the stories. Why do we believe PO for all would be better than we treat our injured vets. Why believe her private practice wont turn back into he days treating the vets.

You don;t want to consider any of these points. You just want what you want. You all seem to confuse the idea of everyone covered with exactly how everyone will be covered. I want everyone covered and I want to be insured that well wont all be equalized to the level of medicare or VA care. Of course htat is better then having nothing. I dont want anyone to have nothing including myself. I want everyone to have much better than medicare and VA and I believe it is possible without gov and unlikely with gov.
I will say it again. I will pay the taxes to cover people in a non gov administered way. I i ask you if you want medicare or for me to buy you a very good coverage policy like I have with IBM, which would you chose?

You believe you are dont someone right by supporting a PO for them. I think you are short changing them. You can give them better. Please tell me where this is wrong.
Please tell me why you are opposed to getting everyone on a good private policy. The ICs can be regulated more. There can be over sight to make sure they don't screw people over. There can be no cancellation rules and pre existing rules.
But why put the gov in charge.
They cant deliver a letter without losing massive amounts of money each month.
Let the gov regulate. I'm OK to stop the greed and abuse and to cover everyone. I don't want to deal with the gov. Apparently you do. So we disagree but to you that makes me totally stupid, ignorant, greedy, closed minded and i'm sure a lot worse in your mind.
Everything is suggested is reasonable. Yet in your mind just useless arguments that does not make everyone assured of a government bet all safety net.

Howa about a rational respectful response to valid points I make.
Cole - why is government regulation okay, but government payment not? Regulation (which would also require enforcement) is a whole lot of government interference. If you realize the insurance companies act in greed now, why do you want them to have even more?

The American system is currently so complicated, and corporate interests so entrenched (particularly at the level of bribing congress) that a full-scale government-paid set-up probably won't happen, even tho it works so well here in Canada. (Note - we have government PAID, not government OPERATED.)

A PO would only put all the insurance companies out of business if they cannot do a better job. As it is, they are unregulated and can do anything they like. A PO would make them at least toe some lines. O made a good comparison with public colleges offering an alternative that doesn't put fancy expensive colleges out of business.

You bring up the post office - it offers cheap subsidized delivery for people who would like to mail a letter for a few cents rather than the $ courier companies charge, but all the courier companies seem to be thriving.

The vet thing - we do hear bad things, and perhaps you have some personal experience as related. However, read some of the people on OS and their personal accounts of their unmet health needs.

What I and a couple of people have been saying is that there are government-paid health-care systems in other countries that people are happy with. I have been alive through the entirety of our system, from its inception.

You say you're willing to pay more taxes to cover the uninsured - but that's not what we hear from Republicans generally... As I understand it, you already pay for the uninsured, who are looked after, to what extent they are, in a helter-skelter way thru emergency rooms. You pay more, and get poorer coverage, on the average. That means, some people get top-of-the-line and lots of people get denied the basics.

Please note - we in Canada pay slightly less per capita for health care than Americans do.....and this is for universal coverage AND better outcomes.

You are as dismissive of our arguments as we are of yours. That's part of the problem of the noise level that has happened in this thing.

Perhaps you should put your thoughts (not feelings alone) together in a post , edit it, drop the you-liberals references, and see if you (a) convince anyone (there are some neutral people here) or (b) get some responses that let you look at this a bit differently.

P.S. - I hope your job at IBM is secure. You're just one lay-off away from having that very good coverage you mention. (This tying of coverage to employment, and thru insurance companies, is something that looks awful to me - we Canadians can move freely in the job market or across the country w.o. considerations of losing health coverage.)



Perhaps you have valid points, but you didn't make them in a clear way in your rather incoherent comments (all our comments, made hastily, were less than stellar).
Cole doesn't have any valid points. He thinks that just because employers spend more than seven percent of their payroll on health insurance, they'll dump what they have and put their employees in the public option as soon as they get a chance.

What he fails to realize is that lots of employers provide employees with benefits that are far greater than the bare minimum.

His employer, for example, provides tuition reimbursement. No law requires that. There's a 401k match. Again, this is a cost that they bear which no law requires. Some people get pensions, and there is no law requiring companies to pay pensions. Hell, he gets health insurance, and there's no law that says IBM has to provide that.

Wise employers understand that while having a good benefits package costs them money, it is worth it. Having motivated and happy employees means that they take care of the customer and that drives revenues, profits, and stock returns.
What an OS comment party! Well done, Saturn.
Yeah Tony - I wonder just exactly what Mr. C does at IBM. Nothing that requires clear thinking and communication, one hopes...
Cole,

You are making a mistake. You believe that good insurance = good medicine. Not so, not in anyway, not even close, never. The two have nothing to do with one another. Best medical care/hospitals in the USA comes from the university medical centers supported by grants paid for by government and your tax dollars. I'll take UCLA over Kaiser every time. Good medicine comes from good education, not good insurance. Insurance, good or bad, does not determine the quality of the medical care you receive. Insurance is for the benefit of the shareholders, not the patients. If you want to know the true role of insurance then I suggest you read what Wendell Potter, a former senior executive at various health insurance companies had to say to Congress:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/potter_testimony.html

The VA? My mom is a vet. She had cancer. She was seen and operated on within 2 weeks of her first visit to the VA. Chemo and 2 types of radiation therapy were started as soon as she recovered from her surgery. She has never, in the last 12 years, paid for a single MRI, CATscan, surgery or procedure. Her medicines cost pennies when mine, the exact same meds, cost dollars more in the USA - usually 300X as much. My mother's VA happens to be the Palo Alto VA. All her doctors are from Stanford. She calls up and says she needs to see a doctor and she sees one within two weeks. Every time. I dream of this kind of service. (I'm not even telling you what she went through in the private sector before she turned to the VA. Suffice it to say if she had done the private route, she'd be dead today. This is a verifiable fact, not an exaggeration.) My mother makes on average $400K/year and she will never, ever, chose a private option over the VA.
oops, meds cost 30x more, not 300x.
Thanks for hosting this, Saturn!
Also thanks for not deleting the comments from the anti-health-care-for-alls. we actually don't know anyone in that crowd so have no experience with what kinds of things they say. We all have experience with insurance companies and so we all know the problems with them, which the Repubs have been unwilling to address. We'd rather see the doctors, nurses, hospital workers and lab techs who are helping people and saving lives get the millions of dollars that are now going to the CEOs of the insurance companies (not for saving lives, but for denying benefits).
MILLIONS of $$$ for denying benefits that people have paid premiums for, MILLIONS for cancelling policies on sick people, MILLIONS for refusing to insure those with pre-existing conditions.
The insurance companies provide nothing!! for the money they take but grief and heartache.
Thanks Myriad and JK, we hope we can join civilized countries in taking care of people like you all do.
~rocco and rusty