Orbital Matters

Saturn Smith

Saturn Smith

Saturn Smith
Birthday
April 06
Title
Ms.
Company
The Solar System
Bio
Everything posted here, and more random thoughts, are also posted at my web site: http://kepkanation.com.

Editor’s Pick
APRIL 7, 2010 7:42PM

Man Arrested for Threat Against Nancy Pelosi

Rate: 18 Flag

The AP is reporting that the FBI has arrested a Northern California man for making threatening phone calls to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi:

Several federal officials said the man made dozens of calls to Pelosi's homes in California and Washington, as well as to her husband's business office. They said he recited her home address and said if she wanted to see it again, she would not support the health care overhaul bill that since has been enacted.

One official said the man is believed to have spoken directly with Pelosi at least once.

Creeptastic. Gregory Lee Giusti, 48, was arrested in San Francisco this afternoon and will be in court tomorrow. This comes one day after a man in Washington state, Charles Alan Wilson, was arrested for threatening Senator Patty Murray over her vote on health care reform:

According to the criminal complaint, between March 22 and April 4, 2010, Wilson called Senator Patty Murray's office on multiple occasions leaving expletive laden threatening messages. Wilson stated that Senator Murray "had a target on her back." Wilson stated, "I want to (expletive) kill you." Wilson discussed assisting others in an attempt to kill the senator. Wilson's threats were in response to the passage of the Health Care Reform Act.

It's not the guys who are calling Congressional offices that we should be really worried about (though I do fully support them being taken off the streets). During my very brief tenure as a Capitol Hill intern, I did a lot of mail sorting -- and we were told then that every letter or call we received represented probably 10 other people who didn't bother to pick up a pen or phone on that given issue.

That was a pretty unscientific measure, sure, but it's the kind of yard stick congressional offices still use to judge public opinion. Now extend that measurement to the threatening call market, and you have some very scary statistics. For every crazy guy or gal who Googles Nancy Pelosi, finds her home phone number and address, and tells her he's going to burn the place down, there are at least ten (and I'd guess more) that have done that quietly, without alerting her staff or, along the way, federal investigators.

I'm glad to see arrests made, but they have to be treated like what they are: a sign that things are getting more dangerous, not a sign that the streets are being cleared of those who would use violence in place of debate to settle the questions before us. Hatred, as Thomas McGowan  put it aptly, has become mainstream.

We have a national history of contentious debate. Everyone who thinks there was a golden age of civil discourse is deluding themselves; our forefathers went at each other with every bit of damning evidence they had at hand. They fought dirty: pamphlets were published anonymously accusing Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton both of scandalous affairs in attempts to reduce their political power. Even George Washington wasn't immune -- during his tenure, he was accused of everything from having fathered illegitimate children (including Hamilton) to being too senile to really understand what was happened (that one came from Jefferson). Debate in America has often been loud,  slanderous, and full of violent emotion.

The ugliest moments in our national history have come when those emotions bubbled over not at massive rallies but in private homes. We are not a society marked by mob rule; we are a society scarred by the violent actions of individuals who have believed they are operating for the good of the country. Consider the Oklahoma City bombing; consider the various assassinations the United States has survived. Consider all the protests of the 60s, all the protests of the past few months. What's more troubling, the mass rally or the lone gunman?

It is too easy to sit on the left and blame the Tea Partiers and the right-wing militias. They, too, may be symptoms, but they're not the problem. The problem is disenchantment. The problem is disenfranchisement. It's people not knowing how government works, and believing, in the absence of understanding, that it works against them and without them. It's a failure more of media outlets and education than of current leaders.

I don't think the Tea Party's mere existence openly encourage violence against members of Congress. In fact, their existence could work to diffuse some of this frustration. Though we may disagree with their statements, though we may disagree with their tactics, I consider everyone who shows up at a rally someone who's much less likely to ever take up arms. If they're shown there's another outlet for their anger -- be it through making new, equally frustrated friends, through shouting insults, or through crafting new, obscene signs -- they're less likely to turn violence. People who think they're being heard don't have a need of guns or bombs.

Say what you will of Obama's strategies on compromise, but I think he gets this.

Americans don't see eye-to-eye. We've never figured out exactly what our country is about, except that we want it to be about everything we like and nothing we don't, and it will never be that way. That means there will never be a time without conflict. There will never be a time when some group isn't scheming for the overthrow of some other. We're polarized. We're impossible.

Right now, it seems worse than ever. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Maybe there are more crazy people willing to take up arms than ever, more people who don't feel there's any alternative. When both sides contribute to the rhetoric about how broken and corrupt our national capital is, the growing distance everyone feels from their government is inevitable.

I want to see further action toward making the marketplace of ideas safe for everyone. I want to see more arrests, not just of the guys stupid enough to get recorded making threats, but of the guys who are quietly locking and loading at home.

More than that, I want someone -- anyone -- on the right to acknowledge that the problem is coming from their side right now. Maybe that's going to take someone on the left acknowledging that we've had our crazies, too, and I'd like to see that happen. Whatever the case, both sides need to stop, right now, calling Washington the root of all evils. Demonizing of the process of representative democracy isn't helping anyone. Deals have to be made. That's how we work. Fights are going to happen. People are going to be angry. Americans do not, will not, have never, and won't ever agree on anything. The more we idolize consensus, the more people are going to be pushed into the category of extreme disagreement.

When they're denied the chance to vent that anger in a productive way -- be it at a rally or at the ballot box -- some people will turn to violence. Maybe only a fraction of one percent, but that's still a staggering number of people who are ready to reload. When they feel that voting doesn't mean anything and they hear only criticisms of their rallies, they'll find another way to make their voices heard.

I, for one, would like to see the GOP stop telling Americans that their votes didn't count, that their voices aren't heard, that they're being ignored and railroaded by an unfair process in Washington. That's the dangerous language -- not the crap about reloading or targets or whatnot. When you tell Americans that their votes don't matter, you're encouraging them to act outside of the system.

That's why it's up to those who frame these debates, those who encourage disagreement and dissent, to consider their responsibility toward keeping debate open, keeping anger from turning into hatred, keeping frustration from turning into violence. Debate in America needs to be open for our country to work. Not friendly, not tame, not neutered: Open. People need to believe, more than ever, that they have not just a stake in the outcome but also a say in the process.

Real defenders of freedom don't rely on fear. They don't rely on stirring up anger. They don't push frustrated people into believing the only avenue left for them is the exercise of physical violence. They offer people hope. They offer people a chance to engage in government. They remind them that we've got a government built on laws and a society built on peaceful but passionate disagreement.

Why am I not seeing that from the Republican party?

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Creeptastic? Thanks for being on top of the story, S.
Amen! I love the thought that having a voice and a vote diffuses the violence and build-up of hatred.
I think it really does. It's why I hate to hear any politician talking about "Washington" like it's the enemy.
Great story, Saturn, thanks. Anger at Congress has boiled over many times in the past, but none of it means that permission to stalk and threaten is granted. When you "have people in your sights" it means something. "Lock and load," too. Metaphors mean more than the sum of their parts. Rated.
The story this morning, Saturn, is that the guy was arrested at the public housing complex where he lives and was convicted of welfare fraud. As tequilaanddonuts' Deven McKay would say, I mock you not.
Well put, political discourse in this country has never been congenial. But, as much as some on OS want to blame the Tea Party both sides have their extremist and groups. Why not add the Weather underground, SDS, Earth First, Black Panthers, and countless other groups that have throughout history advocated violent overthrow of the government. In the 60s it was the left doing the bombing. In the 80s it was extremist environmental groups setting fire to buildings and booby trapping loggers. Violence is violence and when you push any group into silence or marginalize their voice, violence will be the outcome.

Right now it may be the extreme right rattling their sabers, but any group is capable of violence. I think the GOP was saying your votes do not matter because Washington will do what it wants to do regardless. It was the same thing the left and democrats were saying during the Bush administration.

I think the clear message should be vote for those who hold the same ideals as you do. Maybe that is why more and more independent and third party candidates are running because neither the republicans or democrats are listening to the people who elected them.
The answer to your question is because it is working. Republicans have become something that has never existed before. It is a core group of people who shout about America while demonstrating that they really hate most American values and democracy. The Neo-Cons are in control of the "debate" which is not debate but the spreading of lies. The End of Time believers love all the turmoil as it shows that soon the world will come to an end which they are actively praying will happen in their lifetime. The Ayn Rand philosophy of Objectivism, the most evil thing in history, is getting more supporters all the time. That is why you see people screaming at others in wheelchairs and such meanness. The left has nothing to do with this; not one thing other than they do not fight back. There is no compromise or working with Neo-Cons, End of Timers or Objectivists; they do not believe in such things. This is a war of values. The Tea Party people are dangerous as any mob is dangerous. I disagree that those out protesting are not going to do anything because they have an outlet. I say the opposite is true. They are being encouraged to take some violent action. Someone is going to die or be injured soon. One of the threats was from Yakima, Wa. in my state. The man got support in the Spokane paper! It is Beck and Limbaugh who are trying to bring down this president. Do not expect any Republican to stand up and do what is proper. That is a dream that will never come true. Look at what McCain has become.
M.: I read today of a Tea Partier in Minneapolis saying that it was impossible to compare Viet Nam to Iraq. Though I would disagree (Quagmire), I do see the distinction (light at the end of the tunnel). But to compare the Tea Party, or even militias, to the Weather Underground is a false comparison. The Weather Underground had, like, 50 members. And Earth First did not advocate the overthrow of the U.S. government in any communications I ever saw.
These cretins should be treated no differently than terrorist suspects from other countries. They are after all, spreading terror and are a threat to the security of citizens of the United States of America
That's weird, Kathy. Can you send me a link?
Steve, numbers do not matter, the seeds of violence can spring from any group regardless of their political left or right leanings. The Tea Party movement has its nuts, but the majority are just frustrated with Washington.

I have friends and acquaintances in the Tea Party movement, none that I know in the rank and file advocate violence. Most (those that I know) are just as frustrated with the Republicans and the war, corruption and the destruction of the middle class. Most Grassroots groups may start with their extreme talk and leaders, but to gain mass numbers requires less extreme and more practical and moderate means to work within the democracy. The Tea Party is less than one year old and the rank and file are turning on their masters. The Republican party may have started it, but now even Republican candidates are being booed off the stage. This is because as the numbers grow it is becoming more moderate in tone. Time will tell.
@gregmitch and others were tweeting it earlier this morning. Here's a link: San Francisco Man Arrested Over Pelosi Threats - cbs5.com
Much of what you say is insightful as usual, but you are kidding yourself if you think that the (somewhat overhyped and exaggerated) mass movement demonstrations make violence less likely. A huge number of people who get involved in social change movements see that the peaceful and democratic methods of protest are not effective in creating fast change (usually because the powers that be do not feel the need to take them seriously, because the numbers don't warrant it). There are many ways of reacting to this common revelation including discouragement and apathy (aka burnout), co-optation with the system (aka accepting their money while "trying to change the system from within"), a philosophical realignment that they are "bearing witness" to perceived injustice rather than expecting quick change in the short term, and finally, increased radicalization and re-evaluation of tactics. The latter is the response that can be most troubling; the key question is whether non-violence is considered a foundation of the movement, or a sometimes-useful tactic. I think it's pretty clear that the Tea Party movement is not committed to nonviolence, since they are a dangerous convergent mess of right-wing viewpoints which of course include a lot of enthusiasm for that most basic American tragedy, an odd belief that ownership/use of firearms is a basic "human right". They don't have a moral core as articulated by Martin Luther King; nope, they have Sarah Palin, and god knows who else.

This is not good.
The civil war was mob vioence though. People do need to chill out, and notice that the Russians have manipulated Kyrgystan, just trying to stay under the radar to create a super Dien Bien Phu.
Powerful stuff, Saturn, and much deeper than the knee-jerk condemnation of the shallow tactics of the tea party. You're exactly right; when people think they aren't being heard, that their vote doesn't count, they go off the rails. And people in power need to take responsibility for that. I was just looking at a friend's FB page and see that almost all his links come from Sarah Palin or FOX news. I try to vary my sources and bring in criticisms of Obama (like the recent GG column about Olbermann's criticism of Obama). It just can't be said that I'm as partisan as this friend of mine. But he doesn't see it. It's just maddening.
So Pelosi and her goons get to parade in front of an angry crowd in DC (even thought there is a passage to get there that is NOT public) to demonstrate that they are going to pass the healthcare bill REGARDLESS of their wishes and the right gets blamed for being incensed.
The Dems make up fictional accounts of them being called racial slurs and spit upon (but have yet to offer any tangible proof) and then immediately blame those "racist" Tea Party (insert baggers here because that is how they refer to the movement) and we are not supposed to be angry?
MANY of these folks showed up at the townhall meetings to do exactly what you described (unless you were a union thug who was there to incite violence like in Tampa where I was) and make sure their "representative" knew how they felt only to see them turn their back on them when it came time to vote.
It doesn't surprise me that you would see it through this lens but maybe, just maybe, you need to take off those red colored glasses and see if from OUR point of view.
We tried to debate but got shut out. We emailed, faxed and called our Reps until we overloaded the phone lines. Still we get treated like we have no voice. Well you and those idiots in Congress will hear us ROAR come November. This is going to be a massacre of biblical proportions. If I was you I would get to high ground now before the tsunami gets there.
your votes don't matter. much.

that's because you vote for people, not laws, not policies.

faced with a choice of 'king obama' or 'king mccain' you chose one, hoping he was the better person. then you sit impotent and watch your country take it's war machine to afghanistan, watch your army rain death on passers-by in iraq, watch the banks being rescued while tens of millions lose their jobs and homes.

votes matter? get citizen initiative and your votes will matter. till then, don't be surprised if blind rage arises from frustration.
Fighting like cats and dogs over things is what made this country great. However, just like one bad apple spoils the barrel, it only takes one nut job, on either side and neither side is short on them, to screw up a really good thing.
DJohn, you may have tried to debate, but your Republican Congressmen certainly did not. As David Frum so eloquently described, the Republican Party made a decision not to negotiate on health care, hoping it would become Obama's Waterloo. They paid the price for that decision not to represent their constituents in good faith.
Important post! It surprises me that your post can be debated. Correct me if I am wrong. Your post decries the divisive sloganeering of the GOP.

When an individual begins his/her defense of the current Republican seeding of a national malaise with "The Democrats did it too." I immediately turn him/her off. That is a schoolyard taunt, not an argument. I also disregard the defense that Congress has always been contentious. The fact that Aaron Burr shot Alexander Hamilton is history. I insist that we focus on a specific problem of our time.

Reared in the Depression, and coming of age during World War II, I have seen troublesome politics and devious politicians. I remember how divisive the House Au-American Activities Committee televised hearings (1947) and the Army-McCarthy televised hearings (1954) were. I think that the current situation is as bad as I have witnessed. My principal regret is that the obstructionism and discordance fostered by the GOP for political purposes is slowing, if not preventing, the resolution of a number of national problems.

I disagree with your opinion that "[you] don't think the Tea Party's mere existence openly encourages violence against members of Congress. At their "groundswell protest" meeting Mrs. Palin was applauded when she used the phrase "lock and load". What about Mrs. Palin's use of targets on her Congressional districts map? The Tea Party, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, et al, are divisive to the point of dangerous. These groups and individuals are propagandists. Don't tell me that the Tea Party tour is financed by individual donations from "frustrated voters." Assassination is in the air.

Actually, Dr Spudsman 44 also said it better than I.
S;udman 44 is entirely correct in his assessment of the Republican wingnuts who Know The Truth. But there's something more to that, and that's the fact that the GOP and the right wing in this country are beginning to be threatened by what they see as a rise in the prospects of the liberal/progressive/left in this country.

Thus, there is a whiff of desperation on their part as they resort to ever more extreme remarks. As the GOP suffers a massive identity crisis, it will martial the most radical and dedicated elements to their side, adopting their rhetoric.

And on the personal side, much of the anger and anguish of the endtimers, militias, and teabaggers comes from the personal destruction of their lives economically as they see their net worth and personal stature decline. This is compounded by the attempts to hold onto the strictest traditional values in their family in a world that appears to be changing ever more rapidly. Their loss of personal control is driving them to extremes.