Seer

Seer
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Kentucky, USA
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Caregiver
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Animals, reading, lakes, forests, western deserts and the ocean top my list of favorite things. Birth date above is my OS start date, year 2010. I don't post a lot, but am guilty of commenting just about everywhere vociferously ;). ------------------------- It is said that honesty is a virtue and this is a truth. It is the expression of that virtue, however, that is too often abused. Considered and considerate use of the virtue of honesty is a rarely practiced art. ------------------------- There are many in this world who walk a tight rope in work boots and are heartily surprised when they inevitably fall.

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NOVEMBER 3, 2011 2:09AM

His_Story.. as we know it.

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{{These thoughts are a follow up to a comment I made on Jack Heart's blog post here}}

 

We all of us lean heavily on what we can research about any given subject.   Written tomes, messages in stone, word of mouth stories passed down through tribal generations.   But we forget that any research materials are largely subjective.   Even word of mouth is subject to personal interpretation and the imperfection of language, with tales about places, things and events from decades or even centuries ago that might not even exist any longer.   We find artifacts (etc) and determine what we can scientifically (a field that isn't as concrete in it's results as we like to believe ;) and thereafter try to build theories around what we found - but can only do this by comparison to what we actually know about our own world and how we think and react to what we know or might happen.   Humans are basically human of course, yet there are enough cultural differences as to make some of us scratch our heads in complete puzzlement when confronted by the beliefs and actions of some others - and this is all here within our 'modern' world.   Still, we do our due research and formulate our positions on what information we've found, and then we propose this research as a history and it gets written into a book, and so passes on to the future for new generations to base their own theories or knowledge upon.   It's pretty much all we have so we've got to go with it.   And it will be accepted as correct ; until the next spate of study updates - or overturns - it with newfound research, tests and theories.

But let's look at this process for a moment.   Just suppose...   Perhaps five hundred years in the future, and after some catastrophe has wiped out most human life for say two hundred and fifty of those years, we have a basic agrarian society with a few hunter/gatherers scattered amongst them.   They live in small villages near natural water sources, their transportation, the feet at the ends of their legs, small two-wheeled carts, and maybe some few hollowed out logs, or plant material bound together into rafts that can be poled about on the closest river or lake.   They have no concept of machinery or access to anything electronic so that records of that sort are unavailable (they probably doubt that such stuff ever existed, there are rumors of course but no one really believes the rumors are true) and all recordings of the paper and parchment variety are long since dust.   So these future people are starting their learning of the past from scratch.   They only have the physical artifacts that remain, mostly items that are completely unfamiliar to them.   There are places in their world where structures of (rumored) man-made stone and metal, and bits of a curious transparent smooth-surfaced substance, stand in various degrees of ruin and in enormous variety.   Some very small and some very tall, some with a handful of rooms and others with row upon row of little tiny rooms, sometimes stacked over one another ; some sprawling over a great lot of ground surrounded by that same strange man-made stone substance, only it's lying flat on the ground rather than standing upright, and some of it even has a different texture and color, and runs in long narrow lines hither and yon.   There will be strange metal contraptions, some of various sizes, boxy with small metal wheel-like appendages, others much larger, resembling tree trunks with long narrow and flat pieces that stick out on either side in the middle - some of them huge.   No one will know what these things did.   What were those who made such things like?   How did they live, interact, think or believe?  

There will be numerous instances of human burials found ; old stone carvings that have been found now and then look like themselves, wearing odd costumes ; the skeletal remains in these sites will be similar enough that these future people will assume rightly that they're their ancestors.   But there will be some confusion still, since some of these burials will be what we back in this time know are actual cemeteries, others will be of the memorial type, with similar engravings and plaques but without remains - these future folk don't understand the reason for the difference because there are no records explaining it.   Then there will be the ones in some places that are different yet again, nearly all placed above ground in tiny man-made stone structures - but these future folk won't understand it was because of the high water tables.   All sites for burying dead humans - why so many different ways of doing so?   Why have places where no remains were buried at all?   Why did some groups of them get stone buildings?

And what are those strange little lines that are scratched into so many stone and metal surfaces?   Pictures?   Some kind of communication?

And then.. a small group of researching future folks stumble across a few patches of ground in a few different places, ranging from as small as a foot to as large as hundreds of feet square in size.   Within these patches of ground they find from one to many skeletons, none of them human, some of them just bones, others with strange sometimes colorful items along side of them that are just degraded bits and pieces of substances that don't resemble any thing or use that these future people are familiar with.   Most of the skeletons in the smaller patches are four legged, tailed and toothed, and resemble somewhat the wild animals that come near the villages occasionally, skulking after the cast offs from meals cooked.   Small ones that yowl and larger ones that growl, often with nasty dispositions and always suspicious of being approached.   In some of the larger patches there are skeletons of larger creatures, like the hooved ones that roam in herds on the grasslands, some with horns, others with hair on the backs of their necks and long hairy tails.   These future people haven't discovered yet that domesticated animals are possible, let alone companionable and helpful.

They only know that when you can kill one of them they make a good meal.

Yet here in these patches are these creatures buried much in the same manner in which the humans were buried.   What can that mean?

Of course this little scenario has a few holes in it, assuming a great deal about just what kinds of knowledge might be lost through catastrophe or how it might end up twisted out of meaning and context through generations of story telling.   But my point is that today we don't really know, exactly, the meanings, whys and wherefores of many of the antiquities and artifacts that we've found from the times back long before any of us today lived.   We can make guesses, and we're probably right, or close to it, a lot of the time.   Humans are human, probably not so different from era to era.   But it's the culture of a group, and an era, that can make the difference between what we today think something represents, and what it actually was then.

We don't really know why the early peoples practiced human sacrifice, why or if they might have been cannibals, or the religious significance of the stone beings scattered about through their architecture.   Or if there even is actually a religious significance.   We have writing purported to be from some few eye witnesses in some few cases, but given the difference in cultures and languages how much of what the writer heard did they really understand?   And did perhaps the teller resort to examples that were only 'like' rather than actual (which could easily lead to misunderstanding) because there was no common ground?   We can speculate, make comparisons, good guesses, but we can't know.   We weren't there.

Like the future people in my little 'what if' can't know that that single animal buried with the colorful bits and pieces was someone's pet, not a shrine.

Or that the bigger burial place with different kinds of non-human remains doesn't really have any religious significance, no matter it's appearance.   It's just a pet cemetery.   They can't know what we believed or why we practiced the actions we did because there's no longer any common ground between our cultures.

They weren't here. 


 

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No, we don't know; we can only guess. One of the most common dilemmas archeologists face is mistranslations and mistranslations of mistranslations and translations of disinformation. The issue of who wrote/said that and why is in the heart of history. One moral, though, is this. Humans of future times are not necessarily more advanced, in any way, than some in the past. I always loved how some scientists would go out of their way, and at the risk of looking really stupid, to invent some bizarre theories to explain the Great Pyramid of Giza, rather than just admit that these people were more advanced. Excellent post, Seer, it made me think. R
Thanks for this, Seer. As an historian, I'm always struck by how we insist we're seeing "truth," but we're seeing what we can see from where we can see it.
Interesting thoughts- I tend to think of reality in terms of, for want of a better term, "computer" (consciousness?) generated realities- one consciousness, one (or more) realities- like overlapping soap bubbles- one need be very cognizant when one is leaving one soap bubble and entering another ( skinwalker ranch anyone?) -or not- "not" makes for a "spookier" Halloween.
And that translates to every day life, as well. The person you encounter who can't be bothered to hold the door for you? All you're seeing is a snapshot there, too. Did they even see you coming?

I do get a kick out of historical theories.
Thanks for putting this together; you’re right there is so much we just don’t know. Often speculating is fun and makes for great conversations however there some things I would like to know and be rid of doubt.
~R~
You make many excellent points here, especially this one: "But we forget that any research materials are largely subjective." It ain't hardcore science! It's similar in a way to translating ancient languages into English where the translation of one word can change the entire meaning of the text, depending on how it's interpreted. Not sure if that's the best example :). The other thing is, archaeologists may be coming in with certain biases, consciously or not. And agendas too.

Look what's happened with school textbooks, the way certain ugly events in America's history have been prettified or glossed over or even omitted entirely. Yet accepted as fact by generations. Nothing seems to stay the same in astronomy for very long; theories are disproven, new ones take their place, then a few years later - more change. Very few things are set in stone.

Great post; thank you for rattling my petrifying brain (I shudder at the thought of what arachaeologists of the future will think it is when they trip over it centuries from now).
Well, yes and no. While on one hand researchers have assumptions which can get in the way, on the other there are more clues than you might think, and more kinds of clues.

There are some primitive societies around today and there are characteristics they share. Artifacts can indicate if ancient societies were at similar stages.

Sometimes, like when trying to figure out biblical societies, archeologists go sideways. Ancient Hebrews wrote on papyrus, which didn't survive well, but neighboring civilizations wrote prolifically on cuneiform, or clay, which survives great. Those records give us some clues. There are also cultural and linguistic artifacts from local indigenous populations.

Then there's another phenomenon. On Friday nights, the start of Shabbat (Sabbath), my wife and I gather the kids and we say blessings over candles, over wine, over challah (bread), and over my children (though we don't eat them, drink them, or light them on fire). "Y'varechchah Adoshem v'yishmarechah" - may the Lord bless you and keep you, etc.

So there's this book called Walking the Bible (Bruce Feiler), and he tells a story about an archelogical dig in suburban Jerusalem in the early seventies. It seems there was a pesky little boy, about ten years old, and the archeologists needed to occupy him with something, so they sent him over to a site with a stone floor and said "clean it up." A little while later he comes over to the archeologist carrying a pottery shard. The archeologist looks at it distractedly, then snaps to attention, turns to the kid and says "WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS?" He follows the kid back to the area he was supposed to clean. The kid got aggressive, broke through a stone floor and found this beneath it.

The floor wasn't a floor. It was a collapsed ceiling. The archeologists missed this. So, luckily, did a whole lot of generations of looters. The room was eventually dated to about 600 BCE. The First Temple was still standing. In the room were eventually found a few tiny pieces of rolled up silver, about the size of cigarette butts. But these were really important - they had letters from a proto-Hebrew version of the alphabet carved on them and, up to that time, this was the oldest written Hebrew ever found. How do you read them? You don't just unroll. It took about five years of extremely delicate lab work to unroll them. What was on them?

Y'varechechah Adoshem v'yishmarechah.....

Not just on them. On them VERBATIM. I still say this. We didn't get it from an old piece of writing, it's been in weekly use since over 600 years before the birth of Jesus and well over a thousand before the birth of Mohammed.

Is verbatim a big deal? Let's put it this way:

Recognize this? (Please forgive my spelling, I'm not looking this up):

Whan that Aprill with his shoures sote
The draughts of March hath perced to the rote
And bathed every veyne in swich liquor
To which virtue engendred is the flour....

Do you know the language?
Middle English. It's the beginning of the prologue of the Caunterbury Tales.

That's what happened to English in about 650 years.
OK, that's a lot of change. Let's double that time to 1300 years. Now it's more like Beowulf.

Nope. Try triple. Now we're back to when the Apostles were mostly alive and, possibly, Jesus of Nazareth.

Still nope. Quadruple.
OK, just about there. Quadruple the age of the Caunterbury Tales. Quadruple the age of knights in shining armor.

Oh, and by the way, there's no evidence suggesting that the blessings were new when the silver was carved. We can only trace it back to the earliest discovered evidence.

Sometimes you do know.
Agreed Kosh :).

My main point is that for so much of archeological findings we have items but no longer any of the peoples (and too often nothing as linear as the maintenance of the Jewish traditions, which have held together remarkably well). We can make guesses and assumptions as to what these items mean, but without the context of what those peoples believed we can't really *know* that we're right :). And with the forms of written language we have artifacts of, if the language is and has been dead since before anyone today translated it we run the risk of mistranslating ; even if a single character means something other than what we think, it can change quite a lot.

Take Mrs Raptor's bio for instance, her comparison of her Native language to the 'common' English language? Suppose that her Native language had been found on some clay tablets - and belonged to a people that are far in the past gone to dust with mixed race descendents who no longer have any knowledge of their ancestors. 600,000 words vs 11,000 - many of which are conceptual, and the concepts of a people we have no actual knowledge of with regards to their concepts. No way to know how they thought or why they thought it.

Native cultures are another and current example - many of the Native elders are complaining that their people are losing (or have lost) traditions, and this is within their lifetimes. If they can't manage to preserve/revive these traditions - intact - 500 years from now what sense is going to be made of the artwork on excavated pottery shards?

Having some kind of written record helps - but suppose that that oddly shaped bird looking figure on the oldest Egyptian tablet doesn't actually mean what we think it does? Or what if it embodies a concept rather than the definitive word we've chosen for it's meaning? Just because it seems to make sense doesn't mean it's the correct sense :). Just because everything else they've written has followed a certain set of rules doesn't mean that that one figure did. They would have known why it was handled differently but we won't. And then there's the context, in this line that figure means 'this', but in that line the figure meant 'that'.

Just like today we know that we bury beloved pets as human remains are buried, as a show of our love and respect - but its a pet, not a representative of a God. In my little made up story, since these excavators have no knowledge of animal domestication what will they make of these animals buried in the exact same manner in which the humans are buried? They're not going to think 'pet', and they may not think 'God' - but what will they think?

As for having examples of primitive peoples today to use for guesswork with ancients - habitat will have some bearing, will have influenced thinking and beliefs, so that while their actions may bring us close to the ancients, we still may miss due to unknown and/or unexpected details.

All I'm saying is that in many cases it doesn't hurt to keep doors open for adjustments in what we think and what might have been :).
Yeah, who are these people in the future and why are they worshipping a No Parking sign?
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