Seer

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Animals, reading, lakes, forests, western deserts and the ocean top my list of favorite things. Birth date above is my OS start date, year 2010. I don't post a lot, but am guilty of commenting just about everywhere vociferously ;). ------------------------- It is said that honesty is a virtue and this is a truth. It is the expression of that virtue, however, that is too often abused. Considered and considerate use of the virtue of honesty is a rarely practiced art. ------------------------- There are many in this world who walk a tight rope in work boots and are heartily surprised when they inevitably fall.

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NOVEMBER 11, 2011 12:35AM

You're Both Right

Rate: 8 Flag

This post is inspired by two recently read OS posts, one by Scanner, the other by Safe Bet's Amy.   Opposite sides of the 'fence', and both are right.

Sexual harassment is a tricky subject - not exactly black and white nor is the 'remedy' cut and dried.   Place and time and the individuals involved matter.   And there's something else that needs to be considered.   Blue collar as opposed to white collar environments.   I've experienced both and they are completely different 'creatures'.   The blue collar (especially factory or construction) work place is atmospherically different from the office.   Perhaps the difference lies between so-called unskilled labor and 'professionals' and the attitudes that generally accompany the two.   In an office/professional environment it's mostly about power, money, prestige and position.   In a factory/construction environment it's mostly about getting in there and doing the job, little emphasis on advancement of any kind (many workers don't want the responsibility of managing co-workers) they just want to earn their pay and get home to the family.   Advancement in the white collar world can eventually mean company CEO - advancement in the blue collar world rarely means coming close to running the company (that kind of advancement often means starting your own company).   This is an oversimplification but it's a 'nuts and bolts' over view.

In essence we're talking about different kinds of people and their aims with regards to their work - and in the professional world there's a lot more opportunity for sexually oriented 'blackmail' (read power plays).   Not to say that sexual harassment doesn't happen in the blue collar world, it can/does - but (and I'm going to catch a lot of flack for this I suppose) often the women handle the situation wrongly.   Now it's definitely not right that a woman should be in a position to handle anything 'wrongly', but as a woman I'm speaking from experience here.   Wrong or right, how a woman is treated in the blue collar work place (speaking here of work that was originally known as a 'man's job') often depends on how sensitive she is to the actions of her co-workers.   If the banter common to this environment upsets her, she can make her feelings known without inciting retaliation (I've done it) - or she can take the easy way out and become one of the 'boys' (I've done that too).   Or she can rock the proverbial boat to the point of tipping it over (I've never found that necessary).   "It's a man's job" is a dynamic, and this dynamic was seriously ruptured when women took over places in this workforce during WWII.   I'm not sure that the work place - or our conception of it - has recovered from the rupture, the wound is still 'bleeding' I think.   Men really are from Mars, women really from Venus, and when the Venusians 'invaded' Mars sparks began to fly in all directions.   Because the white collar world is about power and advancement the embers still smolder ; the blue collar world has been dragged along for the ride.

The major difference between the two, in my observations, is as follows.

In the blue collar world - the so-called man's world - generally once a woman shows she is capable of doing her job, ie won't slough off and expect her male neighbor to do 'the hard stuff' (which does happen) the men around her will usually accept her as a co-worker.   Because advancement in the blue collar world isn't the 'elephant in the room' that it can be in the white collar world there's less chance or desire for power plays - there's simply an overload of testosterone in the place that used to be a man's world in which women now work.   In comparison we're looking at the same thing that happens when a woman walks into a bar - she's there to find a wo/man or she's there to get a drink (or both ;).   It's up to the woman to make the why clear to those who might approach her.   There are a variety of ways to do that - some lead to trouble - the woman makes the choice.   Usually that's well enough, occassionally in spite of her choice a man will refuse to acknowledge why she's there and there might be trouble anyway.   So you go to management (unless you've found your 'happy medium' and accepting male co-workers straighten the brewing situation out for you) and trust that right will be done.   Sadly that doesn't always happen - but right does happen more often in the blue collar world than the white collar world.

In the white collar world the specter of failure looms, as well as the emphasis on advancement - unless you're actively and visibly climbing that ladder you're not 'succeeding' in the white collar world.   Because advancement is just about the whole ball of wax in the white collar (read corporate) world the drive to succeed rules all, and the saying does go 'all's fair in love and war' - the white collar corporate world is about war ; not (always) of the sexes, simply of the 'winners' and many will use any means to succeed.   Absolute power corrupts absolutely as another saying goes, and power over others is a heady thing ; add the Venus and Mars thing into a workplace that demands successful advancement and you get sexual harassment.

Exacerbated by those in higher, well established (work place 'politically' difficult to unseat) positions who enjoy the 'perks' that they think are implied.

As I said, an oversimplification.   Not addressing that individuals who value power for all the wrong reasons don't come to roost in blue collar management, they certainly do - and the correction for such a situation in the blue collar world can (usually does) get messy.   IF it gets corrected at all.   And definitely not addressing the still-remaining fact that women are usually subordinate and underpaid in any work place.   All of that aside, both Scanner's piece and Safe Bet Amy's are right - there is a degree of overreaction on the subject, but any way you look at it sexual (and any other form of) harassment, not only in the workplace, is wrong and shouldn't be happening or be allowed to continue when it does.   But it does happen and often is overlooked.   The rupture is still bleeding.   Men and women and social views on what habits and actions are acceptable from either sex are in a state of flux.   For too many it is still a man's world and women venturing into it should only occupy 'their' place - all too often designated as not a place of power.   Real equality, sexual, racial or religious, in the work place and elsewhere, is still an ideal, not a reality.   Still a work in progress.   For the foreseeable future I think, sometimes we're going to screw up and get it wrong.   Bringing about this change will continue to be a long and painful process, until if, or when, it's complete.

 

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"Real equality, sexual, racial or religious, in the work place and elsewhere, is still an ideal, not a reality." But we should always continue to strive for it. I really don't think there's a whole lot of difference in motivation as far as blue collar v. white collar is concerned. Sexual harassment is ultimately a form of bullying. In the white collar world especially, I don't think advancement has much to do with it; you're not likely to find a male manager making lewd or suggestive comments to his female supervisor. Trying it on a female contemporary is risky. He's most likely going to harass those lower than him on the pay band. Those weaker and not in a position to fight back, just like school bullies.

(And I apologize for designating the male as the harasser and the female as the victim. I only use those terms because it's more common but we all know it can go the other way as well as same-sex harassment.)

Great post.
You are going to get a lot of grief for this. I appreciate the time and care you took to write it. I don't agree at all, but I'm trying to figure out how to say that without arguing. I'll start by saying that I don't think that we should mix up race, religion and gender politics? You have me thinking and I really appreciate that!
{G}

Well Aim, I kind of drifted over a lot of what I might should have said (like I said, oversimplification ;) but my main point is that environment does have a part to play in the problem. Mind though that my personal experience is dated a bit, I'm relating experiences from the mid 90's and before, so I'm sure that there have been changes of one kind or another :).

I will add that, then at least, sexual harassment in the blue collar world was more overt, in the white collar world more subtly insidious - which in my personal opinion made it more difficult to verify and address.

And Margaret I don't mean to say that advancement plays an actual part in the harassment, it's the dog-eat-dog culture engendered by the pressure to advance that helps to create the different atmosphere in the white collar world from the blue collar world, where co-workers aren't almost automatically pitted against each other from the get go.

And the gender, race and religion portion was directed towards equality in general, the harassment each position can experience in the work place and elsewhere, indicating that equality itself as an ideal isn't realized yet, that's why I left them as a group to the end of the last para ; that harassment applied to all three was kind of a tossed-in afterthought :).
Thought number one: let's take the sexual part out of the term sexual harrasment. Gender based harrasment might work. There's nothing sexual about gender based harrasment. Like rape, it is based on power, not sex.
Good point Aim, thought number one - valid point yes, and I'll stand corrected for it. It's a part of the problem isn't it? That it gets reduced without thought to a sexual aspect when in fact it's not really about sex at all, the sexual aspect is just a tool that makes the harassment work better Using the terms sex and sexuality can almost guarantee a knee-jerk reaction that distracts from the actual subject of harassment itself.

But it brings up another problem. How to separate actual harassment of the power motivated kind from acts that are more often simply based in sexual attraction? The wolf whistle on the construction site *is* a far cry from the aggressive proposition behind a closed office door that can threaten one's job. Yet both are considered by many to be harassment and equally wrong.

I don't think they are equal, but that's my personal point of view.
It's more like one is disgusting and one is illegal?
I DO get angry with women (not you in particular at all) who think the wolf whistle phenomenon is about sex rather than power.
Yeah :).

I don't know, maybe here's another call for a 'study panel'. We need some actual details - broader details that don't simply speak to man-woman, but speak to the actual intent of the harassment and the many different ways it can occur.

Unfortunately we're still going to be stuck with the burden of proof, even with clearly detailed 'dos and don'ts' :-/. That is perhaps the real crux of the problem. When it does happen behind closed doors between two people, who's voice is going to carry the weight barring actual physical evidence? And how to get others in the work place to come forward about it (and you know when this kind of thing happens it's rarely a one off).
Well I can only speak from my own experiences, but I haven't yet encountered a wolf whistle that seemed to be about power. I've never had a man follow up with anything more than the 'hey, I'm interested, wanta go on a date?' and it never got me in trouble when I declined - so I can only think that it was based on sexual attraction.

I know that Dad's wolf whistles for Mom weren't anything like power plays - it was always a signal of appreciation - she was definitely an equal partner in their relationship :).
It's like your reading my mind, in terms of burden of proof and what is legal! Because I keep thinking about it....and can't come to a conclusion. I'm much more of an activist for men's rights than my bio and posts might suggest. I guess I activate for decent people who are treated unfairly?
I still am having trouble parsing through gender, race, religion while discussing what I think of as oppression.
And I don't take the term, or the action "wolf whistles"as lightly as others might. I think you told me a great story about your parents, but I could no more use that anecdotal evidence to change or create a policy than I could my own personal evidence of the contrary. (Thanks for continuing a great conversation, Seer!)
Well, gender race and religion are often their own impetus for oppression, the prejudices that some are steeped in, I'm not sure that there's a way to separate any of them. Maybe just to recognize that any one of them can be a catalyst without being the aimed-for end result?

Honestly I'd have to say that good old fashioned fear of 'different' is the real base of oppression. Telling one's self that _____ (fill in the blank) is wrong is just an excuse for the underlying fear of the difference that is often misunderstood.
Maybe my parents are why I'm more inclined to let that sort of action slide, with them as the basis for my earliest experience? I think I do have to 'qualify' myself though - a part of any act is attitude, whether it's an openly obvious one or just something that you can 'feel' in the air. There's the common (to me) wolf whistle that sparks out and fades ; just an indication that a man finds a woman attractive. And then there are those that are sometimes accompanied by gestures, facial expressions, or general body language that leaves one with the impression that it's not so much a recognition of attraction as it is a 'fresh meat, I want me some of that!' kind of thing :-/.

I have to say that I have no personal experience with that attitude, but I do watch television :). And suspect that maybe that's the kind of wolf whistle that you're talking about? Will agree with you there, I'd definitely not be happy to be the recipient of such an attitude.
Conversation is good - and this subject is thorny enough that more conversation and brain storming has to be a good thing too - just to make sure to try to converse and not get hot-buttoned into a shouting match ;).
The way I saw it Scanner wrote a nostalgic piece about the days gone by when America actually produced things. I remember those days myself as I worked in an after school program in a factory in order to accrue the extra credits I needed to graduate high school at 17. I was in the same situation as he was with having all female boss’s believe it or not I was still shy at 17 and many of the off the cuff remarks made by these older woman actually helped build my own feelings of self worth as far as my attractiveness to the fairer sex was concerned. I only owe those woman a debt of gratitude for the nurturing of what may never have been had I not worked that job. I went from a guy that was to shy to talk to girls in high school to a guy so as to quote Jim Morrison: “who could make the queen of the angels cry”. By the time I was 20 I was eating my lunch in front of Madison Square Garden and trying to decide which 7th Ave model I was going to approach to satisfy my by now insatiable carnal cravings. As far as Safe bets Amy, Dr Satan or whatever the hell else she wants to call herself here she is the epitome of degeneracy and she is one of the things that haunt the corridors of OS and make it more like a zoo than an intellectual forum. As my father used to say “Somebody quick kill it with a stick”.
Now Jack. Behave.

We all have a right to our opinions and very few of us actually know each other in RL - and so have no way to know what life experiences formed the opinions that are expressed. With her seriousness on the subject I suspect that Safe Bet has reasons that are good enough for her to feel as she does.

Kind of like Aim and I, we've uncovered a difference in our life experiences that might account for why I feel one way and she feels another. Neither of us are wrong, we're just reflecting our different views - and there's room enough for both of us to feel as we do - there's room enough for everyone to feel as they do. The problem we run into is not that we feel differently, but that we can't leave room for others to feel differently. This old ball of dirt would be a much better place if we all tried to leave some space for others :).
You are an extremely intelligent woman Seer but let me offer you just this one piece of advice: when you sit on a fence you will be attacked from both sides. I don’t care about peoples life experiences I have had ones that would make your hair stand up up permanently. Should I try to understand Hitler because he was rejected by the Vienna art school. There is good and evil in this world and that is why we are here to decide which is stronger.
I'd call that a threat and report it, Seer. And I won't engage on a thread where direct threats are made to anothers safety and well being.
Oh and just what part of that would you call a threat? And just for once try and express yourself in complete sentences using a coherent thought process.
Sorry guys, had to leave the house for a bit :).

Jack, honestly while I appreciate the advice it's not really needed - fence sitter that I am I'm rarely ever attacked by either 'side' because (like now) I rarely ever take personal offense :). And while your mission this go round may be to determine good from evil it's not mine, I'm here for entirely different reasons altogether and none of them have anything to do with calling judgements on perceived good or evil ;). But I do appreciate your admission that you've suffered some hair-raising experiences in this life, that and your mission make your hair trigger more understandable :).

Nah Aim, I don't consider there's any threat, Jack and I converse, we share interest in a variety of subjects, not always in agreement ;) but then that often leads to lively discussions. I've been known to use a smart mouth now and then but for the most part I try to see around everyone's corners and stay on that fence Jack finds a bit frustrating :). I don't seem to have made many enemies at any rate and I'm pretty easy going about short dust ups - until they get longer than short - so let's all consider that the measure, I'd hate to close this little fella down - I don't mind discussion, even lively ones, but let's all try to remain at least tolerantly civil :).
I can work with that, Seer.
"Differences." In many schools of thought the idea of the "other" as threatening is a theme. So it would not matter if I viewed men as different or other - it's their gaze that immediately victimizes me.
Hold your horses, there. (I can sense a pile up coming on.) I didn't say that I believe this.
I think it can be really annoying at times, but also can be a very good tool.
I like the fence and I am going to occupy it.
What I believe is this: that we are always put in situations where the more powerful among us get to define us.
As a feminist and thinker I refuse to be baited into talking about anything more or less than the subject at hand: power.
Herman Cain obviously would not get through a court of law if he stood trial for harassment.
I'm not selling pizzas or shilling my corporate campaign. I'm the person with a lot to lose.
Seer

Interesting debate. I’ve been in both White and Blue collar environments, both as Subordinate and Supervisor, and I never gave “sex” much thought ( Other than one particular photographer who nominally worked “for” me, (actually an independent subcontractor)- and in self defense, thinking about her in terms of sex WAS “Self-defense”- (she was quite aware she brought it up, and we eventually reached a mutually satisfying arrangement for as long as either of us was interested). I digress. I’ve usually sorted my friends by “Can Take Care of Him/Herself” and “needs help”. It’s not that I “like” people who can take care of themselves better, some of the people I love most can’t take care of themselves anymore- ( something I’m not looking forward to, but am resigned to)

It’s just that those who can take care of themselves are usually more fun to be with. Those who can’t, usually require some degree of protection from Bullies. I hate Bullies just on general principle, but sometimes it’s hard to sort out who is bullying whom.

Sexual harassment does occur,
But, same as with race, sometimes claiming it is a ploy in itself, to take advantage. Which brings up the current awareness of “sexual Harassment” charges is the Cain thing. Trying to make out every political enemy as a “Sex Criminal” without any real evidence gets old, and has the effect of crying “Wolf!” once too often.

I’m going back to my blog and add a male to Amish Lands Next Top Model, before I get accused of discrimination.
*What I believe is this: that we are always put in situations where the more powerful among us get to define us.*

This is true, and leaving sex/gender out of it of course it happens to any/all of us. Women likely more often experience sexual pressure (it's the handiest weapon), but men will experience pressures of other kinds (perhaps doing something not precisely in his job description, something similar) from their superiors.

Thinking further with what we've been talking about, it is crippling to focus on gender at all isn't it? It really is about those in positions of power defining those subordinate to them. And man that's a hella wide spectrum to try to get a grip on :-/.

Margaret says we need to keep fighting, but moving beyond the gender position almost makes one throw up their hands and jump off the nearest high ledge.. I wonder, does it occur to men who are pressured in improper ways that they're actually in the same boat with the female colleague who's been asked by her supervisor to provide a little extra curricular activity?

Now that it's no longer a question of men/women, what is it going to take to focus the net on abuse of power in all of it's forms?

Kind of a nightmarish thought..

And Token, I agree, it's just as easy to use a false claim of harassment as a vindictive weapon - and just as difficult to prove the culprit. With the added burden of stigma that can attach to the accused even when proven innocent :(.
Token, I think the times woman are afraid of retribution and being ostracized if they report harassment mightily outweigh the false claims. Who would go through that amount of vetting to report falsely? I would not even report if it happened unless I had another job in the shoot that was a sure thing. That is not years ago that is today. It is still prevalent not matter what people on this site are saying, how do all these men know whether it is still happening to women?
Great post. I don't see you as sitting on any fence. You understand human nature.
It is a tricky issue simply because human beings are involved and their sensitivities and motivations are often mixed, convoluted and complex or out-and-out weird.

I view job-related harassment as any interference that prohibits me from doing my job or advancing in accordance with my education, skill set and performance. I've been in situations where co-workers or managers made comments I found unsavory or "off" but it never rose to the level where it had an impact on my job. I also know that there might be workers who, in that same situation, would have filed a complaint, and it isn't my place to judge them as they cached and evaluated their experiences. In the end we can only speak for ourselves, our own experiences and sensibilities and let everyone else do the same.
No answers here of course, no remedies, but perhaps we might have found some fresh ways to look at the problem. Thanks for the conversation all :).
Seer, you've presented excellent arguments for both sides. Now I have to go read Scanner and Safe Bet Amy's articles. arrrgh! :)
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