This post was inspired by seeing a number of people post here saying they’d like to get feedback on their writing, and wishing they could get it on OS. I’m going to suggest some other venues to get it, as well as techniques (in a second post).
Giving writers feedback is a very delicate issue. Go too hard on someone and they’ll give up writing entirely. Go too easy, and they’ll never improve. And in-between is a lot of useless advice that may not hurt but doesn’t help, either.
Like many of you, I’ve had some dreadful experiences, starting with the teacher’s red pen in grade school and on to the friend that I gave a short story to who X’d out whole pages and wrote “NO!!” in the margins. But over the years I’ve found ways to get feedback on my writing that’s both compassionate and helpful. Getting powerful constructive feedback has made all the difference for me, and getting encouragement has kept me writing. So I urge people who are interested in working on their writing to seek ways to get that feedback and support.
The advice that follows is based on my experiences teaching writing, being a member of various writing groups, as well as having attended a lot of writing workshops and classes.
I’ll start with suggestions about where to get feedback in this posting and then suggest some techniques for giving and receiving useful feedback in a second posting after this.
BEST PLACES TO GET FEEDBACK
WRITING CLASSES
If you’re just starting out, one of the best places to get help and encouragement is in a formal writing class led by a good, experienced teacher.
If you live near a college or university, check out their extension classes. Look for an instructor who has taught writing for a while and has some publication history. You want someone who will teach you about the craft of writing but also control the feedback from the rest of the class, which is actually the trickiest part.
Being a good or even great writer doesn't translate into teaching ability. I’ve been in workshops with famous writers who had great things to teach about craft, but let the class feedback turn into a free-for-all that at best wasted a lot of time and at worst, hurt the writers. On the other hand, someone who is "in the trenches" as a professional writer has a perspective that an academic will not. You need someone who can provide more than just skilled facilitation.
If you can’t afford an extension class, you can try your local Adult Ed, but quality will almost always be lower and you may end up with a real stinker of a class. You may be better off moving to the next option, which is:
INSTRUCTOR-LED WRITING GROUPS
Another good choice both for beginning writers and those who’ve been writing for some time and are ready for constructive feedback. (Choose a group that seems suited to your experience level.)
Look in your local newspapers, on bulletin boards in places like cafes, small bookstores and libraries, search online and ask other writers for recommendations to find these groups, which often meet in the home of the instructor, and may run a specific number of weeks or be open-ended.
Groups may be very general, or oriented to a particular genre (fiction, memoir, etc.) or topic (nature, grief, relationships, etc.) or type of writer (e.g., women only). Read the description carefully and then talk to the instructor on the phone or in person to find out exactly what the format and content is before joining, as well as to assess the instructor’s communication and interpersonal skills.
Because (unlike college instructors) these people are self-authorized, quality varies widely. Some of the best instructors and group facilitators I’ve known have been leaders of such groups, but friends have encountered some of the worst in others. Look for someone who is experienced in leading writing groups. If at all possible, get recommendations from other writers who’ve been in his/her groups. (Or ask the instructor if they have a student you can call to find out what the group is like.)
See if you can try the group out for a few weeks before paying for a longer commitment. (Some instructors also do one-shot workshops that are a good way to see how they work.) After giving it a fair chance, if you think the group is really not what it was promised to be, talk to the leader and ask for your money back. (Most people don’t do this but just drop out and so the instructor never learns what isn’t working.)
LEADERLESS WRITING GROUPS
I think these groups generally only work well for people who are both very experienced writers and writing group members.
Without a (non-member) facilitator to control things, groups can easily get unhelpful, sloppy and conflict-ridden (e.g. if one member hogs time or gives inappropriate feedback). To work, the group needs to have a clear structure and rules for proceeding (e.g. how much time you get to read, how long critiques go on and how they’re done, etc) and people need to stick to them. The members need to be mature and accustomed to getting and giving constructive feedback.
For the past 8 years, I’ve been in a leaderless group that is highly productive and positive, but we met first in an instructor-led group and carried over the structure when we went out on our own. And, to quote Robert Frost, that has made all the difference.
Over the years, the 6 members have written a total of 5 complete books (another member has written 3 not quite complete books) as well as countless poems, essays, short stories, etc. Two members have sold their books (alas, I’m not one of them). But everyone in the group had already been writing for 20-30 years, had participated in many other writing groups and workshops, and two members were professional writers. We weren’t beginners, and even so, we’ve had a few issues to work out over the years. (Given the vulnerability of sharing work, writing groups can get rather emotional!)
A variation of leaderless groups that can work well even without experienced members is a group that meets only for writing, not critiquing. Over a decade ago, I was in a group that met weekly for about 90 minutes to do freewriting exercises based on brief, random prompts we all came up with (we'd throw them in a "topic bag" and then pull those pieces of paper randomly). We’d read aloud, but then only do “recall” (repeat phrases that had stood out to us), no critique.
My own book actually grew out of the freewrites I did in that group, and so it was invaluable to me. But it wasn’t a critique group, and even though it was simple, we had a firm structure and we stuck to it.
The short answer is easy: It’s good if it makes you a better writer.
Good instructors and groups do the following for writers:
- Encourage them to write – to get words on paper, the first step.
- Nurture their interest in topics they already want to write about.
- Give them ideas to write about that they wouldn’t have thought of on their own.
- Suggest ways to write that wouldn’t occur to them. (e.g. poetry techniques for proseheads)
- Point out what they are doing effectively in their writing so they’ll keep doing it.
- Give constructive (useful) feedback on what could be improved.
- Suggest techniques for revising the writing to make it better.
- Provide encouragement that spurs the writer to revise and edit.
If a group or class isn't consistently doing most of these things for you, then consider finding another venue for feedback.
Productivity and growth are your yardsticks. Being comfortable is not. In fact, a group or class that makes you somewhat uncomfortable as a writer may be best. It should be challenging. But if it makes you uncomfortable as a person, that's a different story. You should be treated respectfully, and whatever happens should be in your best interests. But it might be in your best interests as a writer to be challenged, as long as it's done in a constructive way.
Part 2, on how to give and receive helpful feedback, can be found here.
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Comments
I will look for your second post. :)
I would make one observation, which is that the feedback I want as a writer of fiction is different than the feedback I want as a regular blogger. What you describe above seems more tailored towards people who want to be serious writers of fiction/non-fiction, versus those of us who blog random thoughts into the interwebs. For the latter, I wish feedback to gauge 1) how my readers enjoy (or don't) my topic and general writing style, and 2) to solicit their own opinions about the topic at hand. When I want feedback on my fiction, I want something a little more vigorous, and would expect to be held to a higher standard in regards to writing style, grammar, etc.
As in any art form, I don't you've mastered it until you can be your own best judge. That means deleting entire passages, even chapters, and starting over. I'm also a painter and I've learned that sometimes instead of fighting a painting, it's best to rub out major portions with turp and begin over. It always works.
Mama, I'll have to check out that site.
Mad Typist, I agree that people want different types of feedback. I'm actually going to talk about that in the second post on this topic. I have seen people say here that they really want to know what works in their writing and what doesn't - that is what I'm responding to. I do think that you can look at the venues I name above and choose which would suit the type of feedback you want to get. e.g., I bet there are writing groups for bloggers these days, and I know there are classes, as I've seen them. You can get all types of feedback in all types of situations. It just takes picking the right situation for what you want.
Cindy, I agree that reading good writing is a great way to learn technique/craft. But it won't tell a writer how he or she is doing. To me, that's where feedback on my writing comes in.
Midwest, interesting comparison of painting and writing. I had a painter in a writing class I taught once and he said some techniques i offered helped his painting - he "translated" them into that medium. I found that fascinating.
Thank you.
This post is very generous of you, and I look forward to its follow up.
I do what you do Midwest in my writing classes, which is to start with some kind of praise and end with a very short and general critical comment. I am less cautious in my post-secondary graded courses, but even there I temper what I write far beyond what I used to think was useful. It bothers me greatly because I don't feel that I'm really doing my job, but unless the student is exceptionally talented and has indicated that they welcome constructive criticism and use it improve their work, I don't want to take the chance. Spending time in the dean's office explaining that part of writing is re-writing and editing, and having to go through marks appeals and even union battles to keep my job has taught me that it's just not worth it.
Emma, I think college students are generally a different breed. I'm talking more post-college age adults here. That said, you're right - as I tried to indicate, people feel very vulnerable about their writing. And any writing - I've also taught a zillion business writing classes and people are just as "touchy" about their boring dry memos as people writing the most heartfelt memoir! Writing is very personal.
I hope you'll come back tomorrow when I talk about ways to give feedback that largely prevents defensive emotional reactions (not original to me - just passing on what I've learned that works).
I would suggest they get it anywhere but from Gordon Osmond!
All kidding (I'm not) aside, I think other than resorting to on-line classes, which I would be leery of, you made some really good points. I would think Dorinda Fox could weigh in on this subject.
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I think the suggestions of classes are well worth it. But remember that if the class makes you feel defensive and discouraged, it's probably the wrong class.
Also, and this has to do with OS, I never, ever want feedback here, in terms of critical commentary. I'm totally serious. Comments but deliberately provoking criticism of my actual writing. Hell, no. I like this place to be a haven of creativity and also fun. I get enough critical commentary in the real world from real life professors and other people. Nosiree! Don't be signin' me up for that.
Odette, I agree. I don't think this is the place for writing critique. That's largely why I posted this - to point people to better places to get that.
I also agree that if a class or group consistently makes you feel defensive or discouraged, it's not good. But as I'll post tomorrow, feeling some resistance to feedback is a different matter. IOW, going for only what feels good isn't the answer to improving your writing.
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I mistakenly thought when I joined OS that critiquing was part of the process here. It's a great way to become a better writer to have writers superior in their craft to yourself be generous enough to offer some advice/criticism. I have since discovered that OS is more of a "hobby" forum in that regard but it won't stop me from asking for critiquing from time to time. People can always say no. I also have been asked and I've always said yes.
I do know of feedback techniques, some of which have been useful. I'll be curious to see what yours are. I can always use more info in that regard.
I don't know if it's still thriving anymore, but zoetrope used to have an online writing workshop, where writers could post stories and get feedback from other writers.
My experience there was that some folks were great at giving constructive criticism, some criticized out of a sense that they didn't want you to get anything they weren't getting, and some were just downright mean. So, it's always a crapshoot online, especially since folks can't see each other's faces.
I teach college writing classes. I used to be very sparing in my critiques because I was afraid that I would discourage people from writing. As I've gained in my confidence as a teacher, I've become more liberal with my comments.
Today, for example, I handed back their 5-page papers. Each paper had an average of two paragraphs of critique--both good and bad, with the things i had noticed about voice, technique, etc. In addition, I provide them with grammar and punctuation correction, because so many of them never get that from their profs, and because so many of them make ridiculous errors--such as confusing its with it's and their with they're and there.
My students respond positively to the amount of comments; it helps them understand the grade they've gotten, and they often ask me if they can re-write the paper using my edits to guide them.
But I'm in a position of authority with my students. I'm afraid if I were to suddenly jump into people's blog posts with such correction, well, soon I'd be unwelcome on the site.
One thing I've been thinking about:
Each week, I run one to two writing exercises with my class. If I posted those writing exercises as blog posts, would folks be interested in doing them? We could even do them and offer each other critique?
Ben, do you weep with happiness or sadness??
Emma, I'll look forward to seeing what you think of my next post and anything you can add! As you say, more techniques are always helpful -- filling up the tool chest.
Fingerlakes, Interesting about Zoetrope. I've checked out their site briefly but not for a long time. Because I'm in a LT group, and have done a lot of classes over the years, I don't tend to
continuing...
I don't tend to seek out stuff like online forums to get feedback. As I said, I'm leery of that approach, although if it's your only option (you can't join a F2F class or group), then it is better than not getting feedback at all. I also think you make the important point that it's how people behave that is the key.
I thought of the program reading your bio because one of the professors, Sue Silverman, wrote a quite famous memoir similar in theme to yours and I bet it would be a useful adventure to work with her.
Also, I get a kick back every time I reel in another student. Just kidding.
i've been meaning to write this post for awhile. thanks for sparing me. i think it's just right, start to finish.
the comments have been really on the mark, too, imo.
midwest and emma are definitely right about feedback. it's tough; people take it hard. i think it's an expectations thing: people start out, spend six months or six years dabbling in writing, ramp it up a bit and spend another six months or years getting serious at it, and think they are good now, and that the critique will mostly consist of praise. it's a hard crash.
the truth is that it usually takes people years to get good, decades to get great. you get used to the crit, but it takes awhile.
one of the happiest days of my life was getting the complete short stories of vladimir nabokov. he is my all-time favorite writer. they were arranged chronologically (by pub date, i think), with the first few published in his early twenties. to my great relief, the first few were TERRIBLE.
he'd been writing since he was about 4. what a relief that it took him more than 20 years to get good at it. (if you count it that way.) i was going to be so intimidated if he just picked up a pen and was great at it.
it was also nice to see that it only took a few more years for him to get really good--he advanced rapidly once he started publishing.
two new books out, including Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers," claim that virtually any pursuit takes approx. 10,000 hours (typically ten years) of focused attention to reach greatness. that means that many hours with a good coach, constructive feedback, etc., and really working hard, not just messing around. the key is the type of practice. without the focused attention, the hours count for zero. (according to them.)
they claim it's true for everyone from Mozart composing music to tiger woods, bill gates or marketing executives.
i'm not sure i believe that, but it sounds like the right ballpark.
it worked wonders for me. a great prof helped. she was retired from decades doing it full time. (marge ???)
the book we used was great, too: janet burroway's "writing fiction: a guide to narrative craft"
http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Fiction-Guide-Narrative-Craft/dp/0321277368/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234823971&sr=8-1
i highly recommend it. i used it with my students when i taught undergrads, and they loved it, too.
i'd been messing around with writing since i was about 4 (my older brother and i collaborated on these ranching soaps in bed before going to sleep every night: he in the top bunk, me in the bottom. each night we'd pick up where we left off: with the same characters and plot. i didn't realize till decades later, we were writing novels together in bed.)
i took creative writing in high school, and briefly in college, but never stuck with it, and just messed around with stories on paper at nights.
when i was 31, i finally got serious, and enrolled in an extension course at SMU. (i lived in Dallas then.)
i loved it from day 1. it was also a revelation to study the technique of good characters, plot, POV, etc., and then do an assignment addressing that.
it was focused instead of free-form. it was based on addressing basic skills i'd never really stepped back to consider in my writing, or learn properly.
and there was great feedback. it was nothing like friends saying how great it was.
maybe the biggest thing, though, was everybody doing the same assignment every week, and seeing how radically differently others had approached it. that opened up huge windows of possibility for me.
from there, i spent two years on my own, in a much more focused way, which led to believe i was ready to quit my job, go to grad school and dive in full time. that was 1994, and it took five more years to get my first assignment at salon, and exactly ten years from start of grad school to my first book contract. another five to get the book to the shelves.
one step at a time.
that SMU course was the key step. for me. so was the burroway book.
I am leary about giving feedback on OS. One writer asked for it several times, and I was the only one who actually gave it. I never heard from the writer whether or not it was appreciated, and I felt kind of funny being the only one to not say "it's perfect as is!" so I won't do that again.
I have asked for feedback on my own pieces, but only from certain writers and not publicly. I've learned in real life that it's very difficult to critique genres with which we're unfamiliar. I tried to get critiques on one of my kid lit pieces and I tried to give it on a historical fiction piece, both with less than satisfying results. I think to have the best experience in both giving and receiving criticism, it's helpful to ask people who are familiar with your genre.
Thanks for taking the time to compile such helpful information. I look forward to reading Part 2!
(i've never said this before, but email me when it's up.)
I am brand new here, I just did my very first post yesterday, and I'm eager to learn and do so much more. Your ideas are great, and I'm definitely going to utilize them. Thanks for caring about those of us here on OS that are new and looking for ways to grow, stretch, and improve over-all writing skills and techniques!
What a nice thing to do!
become friends with another writer, or a very small number of writers, whose work you truly admire. Help them; let them help you. Nurture the friendship or friendships.
This is not a quick fix. But it works really well.
Stephen, thanks so much for adding your thoughts on MFA's here. I don't have one (although I have an MA in English Lit) so didn't feel qualified to weigh in on them. They are a great option, but an expensive and time consuming one!! I also have had great experiences taking residential workshops (a weekend to a week) but they are also more expensive and logistically challenging than a local ongoing group or class. And, they end, and ongoing feedback is important, IMO.
Dave, what a compliment from you! And thanks as always for sharing your own writing experience and insights. I have learned the most at OS about developing your writing and getting published from your posts and comments on this. You added a lot more background on how you got from 'there' to 'here' in these latest comments and it was really helpful to know. I file away what you say as "how to" tips to try....
And I loved what you said about Nabakov. I've had similar experiences, such as hearing Toni Morrison speak to a class I was in and saying she re-wrote her first novel 4 or 5 times completely from scratch. yes, as in, threw it out and started all over again. People love to think that good or great writing Just Happens and you're born as a talented writer, but every famous writer tells tales about their development involving years of practice and failed attempts before becoming both good and successful. It's a craft and it has to be learned, with practice, like any craft, no matter how talented you start out as.
Lisa, you make a really good point worth repeating: Not only do you want feedback from people who are good at giving that in general, but you need people who know your genre, esp if it's specialized like scifi or romance. This has come up in writing groups and classes I've been in and it can be a real barrier when people don't know the form. Genre fiction can sound very odd to people who only write general fiction or memoir.
Timid - so are you timid now because of that experience?? ;)
(Nothing can get uglier than a crowd of out of control writers!)
OE, I agree with your checklist: Trust, tech writing skills, interpersonal skills. That's a very good summary of what to look for in a writing teacher as well as anyone giving you feedback.
Jeff, I agree that partnering with even 1 writer can really help. I've had friends do that when they couldn't find a group or afford one. It's all in the quality. One really sharp writer friend can be worth several groups! OTOH, I do like having multiple perspectives. In my writing group, we often agree but we also disagree at times in our feedback and it's helpful to all of us to hear some variety.
Again, thanks also to everyone else who responded!! and yes, I'll put up Part 2 tomorrow.
Also, people write with so many different voices and styles. When I don't appreciate Kalvin's unedited posts, is that because he really should learn to edit or because I'm not his audience?
When something that's meant to be humorous falls flat, is that because the writer hasn't mastered the genre of comedy or because I have no sense of humor?
I posted a writing exercise if anyone wants to play.
http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=115094
Susan, I've heard that book recommended by others, although I haven't read it myself.
Malusinka, you make a good point that not everyone's an audience for everything. we all have our tastes. That's why I like being in a writing group, so you get varied opinions.
fingerlakes, that's great!! thank you.